Source of melody: Lady Franklin's Lament?

Subject: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Noreen
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:15 PM

I have copied the following request from another thread where it was likely to be ignored.
Noreen

I am trying to find the source of the melody to which Lord Franklin (or Lady Franklin's Lament) was written. I know, as you must also, that one of Bob Dylan's early hits used not only the melody but whole lines, i.e. I dreamed a dream and I thought it true of all the friends that I ever knew. I think that Ewan MacColl recorded it. He may have written the tune but it appears that there were earlier versions.

Might you have information about this or a suggestion as to where I might go to trace the use of a melody that was probably in the public domain.

Thank you.

Deborah Parducci [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:21 PM

Isn't the melody the Irish song "The Croppy Boys"? Also used for "MaCaffery" as I remember.

Murray

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:24 PM

Doubt if you'll ever find the origin of an old tune, but other places you might look are two songs "The croppy boy" and "MacAffery" which go back a couple of hundred years(ish). Might have to try a few variant spellings to find the second one.

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:28 PM

Overlapping answers there! Well done, Murray, you can type quicker than me.

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:36 PM

It is of course "The Croppy Boy" rather than my typoed plural. Is "McAffery" really that old, Greg ? I thought it was a relatively recent written song.

Murray

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:37 PM

PS Bob Dylan got it off Martin Carthy when he was over here(London) filming "Mad House in Castle Street"

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Noreen
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:39 PM

Yes, it's the same tune as the Croppy Boy (Croppy Boy tune file used for Lady Franklin in the DT) so it's older than E MacC, but I don't know more than that. I have no doubt that other knowledgeable souls will be along later, Deborah.

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM

Well the evnts in Macaffery took place in Preston some time in the 19century(it is historical).I don't know if the song was contemporary but judging by the large variations in tunes and words of different versions it must have been around a long long time.

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 08:01 PM

Dylan learned Lord Franklin from Martin Carthy, and credited him for it.  The tune usually used is most associated with execution songs such as McCafferty/McCassery and The Croppy Boy, as has already been pointed out; offhand I couldn't say if it was originally Irish or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Barry T
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 12:36 AM

For the benefit of those not familiar with the tunes being discussed here's my midi sequences of the two...

Lord Franklin and The Croppy Boy

To be honest I didn't make the connection between these two tunes when I did the midis, so the styles come out quite different... but now I can hear the common musical thread.

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: IanC
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:05 AM

I think that the "Lady Franklin" tune is a minor variant of the "Croppy Boy" tune.

As 1798 songs go, Croppy Boy seems to be quite early, James Catnach was printing it on Broadsides between 1813 and 1838.

John McCormack recorded the song on a wax cylinder in 1906 and credited it to William B. McBurney. The tune is noted here as being originally ...

"Cailin o cois tSiure me" (I am a girl from beside the river Suir). According to Nicholas Carolan, this is "the oldest dateable Irish melody" (16th century).

Hope this is useful.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:40 AM

Thanks, Ian; I certainly hadn't made that connection.  The evolution of Cailin o cois tSiure me has been a convoluted one, and the earliest examples bear little resemblance to the tune we are familiar with; to the extent, indeed, that several Croppy Boy tunes are treated as effectively separate, and for all I know may not be related to each other.

There was some discussion of Callino Casturame, (the title under which it was first published), in this old thread:  Callino Casturame,  and Bruce Olson goes into considerable detail in the "Additional Tunes and Histories" file at his website:  Callino Casturame, alias, In summer time.

Entries at  The Fiddler's Companion  may also be helpful:

The Croppy Boy

Those entries contain some tune examples in abc format, and others can be found at  J C's Tunefinder  for comparison.

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: radriano
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 12:47 PM

There is a melody for "Lady Franklin's Lament for her Husband" in the "Oxford Book of Sea Songs" edited by Roy Palmer that is a bit different from the popular version of the ballad. I show it below in ABC notation. I can't do those fancy links for MIDI files but if you send me a Personal Message with an e-mail address I can send a MIDI file that way.

T:Lady Franklin's Lament for her Husband
M:4/4
L:1/8
S:Oxford Book of Sea Songs, ed. Roy Palmer
R:Song
K:D
(D>F)|A2A2 B2 A>F|(E>D) (E>F) D3"'"D|
E2 (E>F) (G>F) (G>A)|B2B2 A2"'" A>A| BBBB d2 c>B|
A2d2 F2"'" (F>E)|D2 AA (B>F) G>E|E2 D2 D2||

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 01:15 PM

Palmer set a broadside text to that tune, which is H815 in the Sam Henry Collection; it was noted c.1939 from "an old salt whose portly form is familiar at the Quay Head, Portrush".

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: nutty
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 01:47 PM

It may interest some of you to see the three different "Laments" on broadsides in the Bodleian Library. Although, unfortunately, they give no clues to what the tune might have been.

LAMENT 1

LAMENT 2

LAMENT 3

There were also two tunes .......
Franklin is fled away
and
Franklin is dead and gone ......
in use in the middle of the seventeenth century - which may or may not have had a bearing on the later song/tune.

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: nutty
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 02:22 PM

There is an ABC file for Franklin is fled away on Bruce Olson's site

X:146
T:B146- Franklin (Frankin) is fled away
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:6/4
K:G
GGGF3/2E/2D|GGAB3|cccB3/2c/2A|AA3/2^G/2A3|\
ddcB3/2A/2G|A/2B/2c/2B/2A/2G/2 F3/2E/2D|\
dded3/2c/2 B/2A/2|BA3/2G/2G3|]

Unfortunately, I don't have the ABC programme but if someone could convert it into a midi file ....well.....

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: rich-joy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:00 AM

Is "The Convict Maid" tune related to "Franklin" as well ???

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:47 AM

G'day rich-joy,

Yes - I guess the 'mirror image was irresitible ... and I understand The Convict Maid was hawked as a broadside ... and a lot of displaced Irish hawked broadsides in London!

Somewhat later (Mayhew's 1850 book) Mayhew says the most common tune ... then ... for hawking song sheets was Youghal Harbour - the tune we use here for Moreton Bay ... and the Irish used for Boulavogue.

BTW: There is a strong belief that The Convict Maid was deliberate propaganda by the British government - becoming alarmed at the poor people deciding that a mild crime and a short sentence to Australia as a convict could lead to a far better life than on the streets of London. This was supposed to persuade them otherwise!

I'm reminded of the late Douglas Adams's reaction, as he sat looking at a Queensland beach, to learning that Moreton Bay was "a convict settlement of second sentence ... for hardened convicts who committed a second offence while in Australia" ... he reckoned this explained the quiet smile that Australians have when dealing with the English!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Source of melody:Lady Franklin's Lament?
From: rich-joy
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 02:11 AM

LOL!!!

Poor Misery and I have a Scots mate here in Maleny, SEQld, who has close rellies in Edinburgh, Scotland. They are genuinely distressed that he lives in such a place as Australia and have no comprehension whatsoever of the quality of life!!
We often enjoy a Guinness together at a pub overlooking the stunning scenery to the Glasshouse Mountains and sigh about about our dashed bad luck at having to live in such a dump!!!!!!!

Cheers! R-J