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BS: another teen witch suicide
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Subject: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:42 AM This time it's in the UK... Girl 'white witch' hanged herself By Stewart Payne (Filed: 20/03/2002) A SCHOOLGIRL who believed she was a white witch and was influenced by the television programme Buffy the Vampire Slayer committed suicide after being taunted in the playground, an inquest heard yesterday. Laura Pendall, 14, was also upset that her parents had separated. Her mother, Elizabeth, and father, Nigel, gave evidence at the inquest in which they spoke of her passion for wicca (witchcraft) and her belief that it was a force for good. "I agreed with her on that," Mr Pendall told David Morris, the Bedfordshire coroner. Her mother said: "Her beliefs were very pro-life and it was a very positive thing, not destructive." But what Mrs Pendall, from Keysoe, Beds, described as a "teenage girl's passion" led to Laura being teased at school, with children taunting her with comments such as "burn the witch" and "ding dong, the witch is dead". Laura hanged herself using a scarf tied to her wardrobe. Mr Morris recorded a verdict of suicide. © Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2002. Terms & Conditions of reading. Commercial information. Priv |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Amos Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:53 AM Thisis a bloody tragedy, but press noise notwithstanding, her involvement with wiccan beliefs probably had little to do with this outcome except by being used as a topic for peer cruelty. It could have been the color of her hair or a preference for the wrong brand of chocolate at that age -- the cruelties of schoolchildren are fearsome indeed. Her vulnerability was redoubled by the prior loss of her parents' stability at the worst possible time of her life. Without that loss she (I would guess) probably could have worked through the peer bullshit. What a damned shame. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 24 Mar 02 - 11:37 AM Well said, Amos.
And I agree, up to a point: Wicca was not the reason for this girl's death. But I don't think that "the press noise" can be dismissed so easily with "notwithstanding". The lead is particularly poisonous: I mean, really -- what does her being a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer have to do with it? Granted, the "White witch" on the show has "powers" with no foundation in reality, any more than in Bewitched. And it is true that many teenagers are initially attracted to Wicca because they want such powers for themselves. But if they stick with it, and really try to learn something, they will grow past that stage. I can't help wonder if the lead would have even been slightly similar if she had been attracted to Christianity because she watched Touched By an Angel, and was taunted because of that. The article is shameful because it puts the emphasis on her beliefs rather than the bullying. That's the real issue, here: that a culture of physical and psychological violence is practically expected to exist in our schools. That's what has to change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Clinton Hammond Date: 24 Mar 02 - 11:44 AM Sad... But ya.. if it hadn'ta been Buffy the Vampire Slayer, it woulda been rock music, or Dungeons and Dragons, or her Barbie collection that talked to her and told her to hang herself... Too bad the poor kid didn't get the help she needed, when she needed it... Maybe the next time around for her will be better eh.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Mar 02 - 12:09 PM It saddens me no end whenever this sort of thing happens. I shudder to think it could have been one of mine. My twin daughters (now 17) went through a real bad patch when they were 14/15 with school, bullies, peer pressure etc etc. They were into Goth/Marilyn Manson type stuff. I shook my head in disbelief when the school representative suggested they hide their gothic tendandcies to avoid the bullying! What if they had been bullied because they were black/jewish/disabled or anything else? Would he have suggested bleach? Christian conversion? A miracle cure? Until the school authorities understand that NO amount of bullying for ANY reason is tolerable these tragedies will happen again and again. Fortunately both Mrs G and I and all of mini-G's friends were very supportive and they pulled through OK. (Well - as OK as possible with a folk singing Gnome for a dad...) But there but for grace of god etc. I wish I could help. Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Mr Red Date: 24 Mar 02 - 12:35 PM Those who insist that adverts and violent films don't influence people insist this is not at all relevant. The truth is this would only be the tip of the iceberg. The extreme that proves there is an effect. Anyway advertising can be proved to be an influence because look how it sold itself! The rest is not a big leap of faith it is self evident. The only argument is the severity and importance of the effect. I can remember Batman having to insist before one TV show that neither he nor Robin could fly and no kiddykin should attempt to fly wearing a Batsuit. I am not sure of any instances in americal but I do remember an instance in the UK and that was fatal. The child caught the string in a bunk bed and strangled himself before he was found. Could have happened in another way but he was jumping off like he thought Batman did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 02 - 01:39 PM Saying that someone "believes" she's a witch is pretty silly, all right. It's kind of like saying that someone "believes" she's a Jew, a Presbyterian, or a Republican, and it betrays the prejudiced state of mind of the general public toward Wicca, which is a benign and quite ancient form of religious/philosophical outlook that predates Christianity and has far more respect for life and Nature than is commonly shown by "Christian" civilization. But it's relatively rare and unconventional...and it served as a focal point for the school bullies. As several others have pointed out, school bullying was the big problem here, not Wicca. I was mentally tortured by school bullies the whole time I was in school. Why? Because I was Canadian (in the USA), because I was small, because I got good marks and was a "brain", because I was shy and nonviolent, and most of all because I lacked the killer instinct that they had. I thought about killing them sometimes, though, and I am never that surprised when some school kid somewhere goes whacko and shoots a whole bunch of his classmates. It doesn't surprise me a bit. I've got better self-control than a lot of people I know. Bullying should never, ever, be tolerated by any school. It's a social disease. (Sadly, though, I suspect most of the bullies learned it at home, where they were bullied by someone else...) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 24 Mar 02 - 01:54 PM just to clarify; Wicca itself is not actually ancient and has only been around since the 1940s or so... but the belief systems which permeate it (animism, folkloric rites involving agrarian gods, etc.) have indeed been with us for a good long time... |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,Celtic Soul, sans cookie Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM CapriUni... Perhaps the press phrased it as they did because she became interested from having watched the series, but had not actually done anything serious about it yet. I would not know about this specific case, being very far from the front and center on this one, but as an ex-pagan, I knew some people who were very serious about their religion, and then there were those who became interested as a result of certain books or movies. Some of the latter were not as serious about it...perhaps she was amongst this group? Again, I don't know, but it is a potential alternative explanation for their remarks. I would agree with Amos as well. If it wasn't that, there would likely have been some other thing. Kids can be cruel...hell, adults can be cruel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM It's a shame that these things happen, then you'll get the so called 'christains' saying it was the devil that made her do it. I'm a Christian, however I don't subscribe to this view.
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 02 - 02:21 PM I suspect that some patterns of bullying in schools - including what sounds like the sort that was in operation here - aren't so much something that schools tolerate, they are essentially a version of the systems of organisation and motivation that the schools rely on and propagate.
And that is the way the schools operate because that is the way that society is assumed to operate, and the schools are geared to turning out the kind of citizens they are supposed to turn out, square pegs for square holes.
My impression is that the pressure towards conformity towards being "regular" in the American sense, is stronger now than it ever has been. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Amos Date: 24 Mar 02 - 03:03 PM Well, Petit 'Awk, Ziss explains a great deal -- the obsession with philosophical issues, the fixation on obscure overweight heros like Shatner, the yearning for admiration at any cost, and the metaphysics. I sinkkk finally ve are gettink somevere mit yer caishe!!! Vun or maybe three more years unt ve vill get it ALL sshtraightened outt, ja!!! Libenscheiss, PhD |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: InOBU Date: 24 Mar 02 - 05:55 PM What ever racializes teans, wiether religion or sexual orientation, on other threads we have spoken of gay teen suiside, there has to be greater understanding by school authorities, partents, etc. Let's face it, children don't invent ways to racialize their peers, they reflect our preujudice. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 02 - 06:33 PM The paradox is that, when I was at school, the idea that your contemporaries could care or even notice how you dressed or grew your hair or what kind of things were on your feet would have seemed completely bizarre.
In an odd kind of way, as the school authorities have backed off from laying down the law so much on those things, the repression often seems to have been taken over by the mob mentality among young people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: katlaughing Date: 24 Mar 02 - 07:00 PM This is depressing. My friend told me, yesterday, that her son's friend, who is an American of African descent, is being tormented at school by a bully who taunts him with "the cottonfields are out back!" Now that my friend knows about it, she and her son will go to the school authrorities, but you know it starts at home. Stop the world, I want to get off.... kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: InOBU Date: 24 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM In spite of the nicer memories from that reference (old Anthony Newley!) Don't get off! It is the hope and care which needs be passed on to the young folks Kat, and yer part of that passing it on. We need not live twice to make life paradice eh? Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 02 - 08:57 PM Shit! There I was, typing out a brilliant reply to Amos and...I hit some damned button on the keyboard and it vanished into cyberspace! AAAARGGGGHHH! It's gone forever. This happens occasionally, and I don't even know which button it is yet that does it! Anyway....Amos, you sly dog, you are right. :-) Or Liebenscheiss is. Wunderbar analysis! Growing up as a shy Canadian kid in an ignorant, bigoted, brain-dead, two bit, small-minded, right wing little dogpile of a town in upstate New York has no doubt left resounding marks on my psyche to this day... I succhest zat Herr Liebenscheiss get togedder mit mein analyst, Herr Trotlhauffer, und zey can start comparink notes und get to ze bottom uff ziss whole mess zat iss goink on in mein kopf! Ya. It may not yet be too late to restorink mein equvilibrium und gettink me on ze road to mental stability and social achustment. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Celtic Soul Date: 24 Mar 02 - 09:34 PM I don't know why (anymore) that it is that kids go through that "you gotta be cool" stage, but I think a lot of discrimination and teasing amongst them is due to it. I am only glad that, so far, being "cool" is not so important to my own kid that she is willing to compromise what she knows to be right. I'm damn proud of that kid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: katlaughing Date: 24 Mar 02 - 10:47 PM Thanks, Lorcan, maybe not get off, but definitely take a respite. Sure wish I'd known you when I lived back there. I would have been proud to march with you and Genie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,Mike Cahill Date: 25 Mar 02 - 02:47 PM People seem to be reading a lot into a news article where they have used the word witchcraft to make a family tragedy more newsworthy. The reason for the girls death may have been the bullying, the falling apart of her family life, 101 other things that worry the average teenager, or a combination of the above. What a waste of a young life, don't trivialise it please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Amos Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:33 PM Vell, Mein Herr 'Owk: I haff gott to commend you vor your villingness to exshamine dese tinks, ya! Und der only reason it isch possible to make such diagnoshes is dot I am, myself, a subscriber to effery vun off dose patterns of human aberrashun!! Ja!! Sho, you see, it takes vun to know vun, ya??? Liebenscheiss |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: MMario Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:40 PM "Growing up as a shy Canadian kid in an ignorant, bigoted, brain-dead, two bit, small-minded, right wing little dogpile of a town in upstate New York has no doubt left resounding marks on my psyche to this day... " knowing the town that you refer to, yes - you are probably right. I know just WORKING there a few hours has done it to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Irish sergeant Date: 25 Mar 02 - 03:59 PM What town so I avoid it! (I'm from upstae, NY actually) I would think that the school authorities need to look at the bullying aspect. I went through that crap my freshman year and at that age, it can be devastating to the ego. I'd have just as soon capped the whole lot whwere I went to school but I had self control also. My particular Hell was a small town in Northeast Ohio. I will refrain from naming it as that was a long time ago and i don't care to offend anyone Today. Unfortunately after the bullying and the parental split it was too much for the poor girl. my heart goes out to her family in their time of sorrow. neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:17 PM Sometimes while we are going through a difficult time we project on to the place around us all kinds of things that aren't really there. Or maybe they are there, but so are a lot of other things.
Being young and unhappy in a big city isn't really all that different from being unhappy in a small town, even if we look for different explanations and blame different aspects of our environment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Don Firth Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:32 PM The vast majority of kids these days don't seem to realize that being uncool is cool! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Rick Fielding Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:47 PM Oh Don...if only I'd known back in 1961 that I was sooooo un-cool, that I really WAS cool. Or even if the odd girl knew it!! Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Mark Cohen Date: 25 Mar 02 - 05:39 PM So, Rick, are you going to give us the name of this "odd girl" who apparently missed the boat? Seriously, one thing that hasn't been touched on here is that it's quite likely that this girl had been showing signs of depression for some time before she ended her life. Parents and teachers (not to mention physicians who deal with adolescents) need to make themselves aware of the signs and symptoms of depression and watch for it in children. Bullying is rampant, and needs to be dealt with...but some are more vulnerable to it than others. Depression is a life-threatening but treatable illness, and it does occur in children and adolescents, although even 20 years ago most doctors denied that it did. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Green Man Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:02 AM Looks like the 'Christians' burned another one of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:27 PM Celtic Soul, you wrote: "Perhaps the press phrased it as they did because she became interested from having watched the series, but had not actually done anything serious about it yet." Perhaps that's true. But I suspect (but maybe that's more of a hope), with the apparent support her mother gave her in her religious searching, she would have gone deeper into the faith, given time. (In other words, she doesn't seem to have gotten into it simply as a way to shock her parents -- as many youngsters who visit AOL's Pagan chat rooms seem to do). In any case, I have my doubts that the reporter looked that fully into the matter, based on the tone of the report (though s/he may have), and used the word "believed" simply because 'everyone knows witches aren't real, so this is clearly a sign of how unbalanced she really was -- she couldn't even handle being teased!' -- putting the onus on the one being teased rather than the ones doing the teasing Now, this is a bit of thread drift, but: Little Hawk, I agree with Peg: Wicca is not an ancient religion, even though some of its philosophy is drawn from what our interpretations of ancient myths. One of my pet peeves about the Neo-Pagan movement is so many insist that 'Neo' has nothing to do with it -- as if their lives depended on it. A religion's legitimacy should have nothing to do with its age. After all, Unitarianism didn't get a formal doctrine until 1819, and it didn't merge with Universalism until 1961. And yet very few have any qualms about whether the UU church is real. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,Pelrad Date: 27 Mar 02 - 12:53 AM Last year a local couple committed suicide and left a note to that effect. The television news focused entirely upon their being wiccans and very little on the actual reasons for the suicide. They used the incident for at least three stories on the occult, then followed up on the fourth or fifth day with an interview with a witch defending wicca. Television news is so shamelessly sensationalizing every story that it nauseates me. Incidentally, the absolute worst news story I've ever seen was the first a local station ran on this incident. The "reporter" actually interviewed someone who had overheard another person giving information to the police. Unbelievable! There seems to be a real epidemic of young teens attempting or succeeding in suicide. I work in a hospital and we must see at least one a week come through our doors. I wish more people could pay attention and help these kids before it gets to that point. Teenage depression is very real, and it's a very hormonal stage of life so many kids are not really rational to begin with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: lady penelope Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:51 AM For some reason ( to this day I can't figure out why ) I was bullied from day one at my secondary school. In Britain, you start secondary school at age 11 ish. I was a short, red headed girl and I thought , not worthy of much attention. I didn't dress drifferently from the other girls ( strict school uniform ), I wasn't a 'swot'. As far as I could see, there wasn't anything to single me out. Yet I was picked on constantly. For my hair, the way I wore it, whether in plaits or loose or what ever. For wearing wellies when it was pouring with rain and we were on a field trip! For being short. For talking with a 'standard english accent' ( not a slang accent, but not at all unusual at this school ). For walking through the school grounds (???) on my own, for walking through the school grounds with a friend! It didn't seem to matter, my place was obviously in the wrong. I must comment that the majority of this bullying came from a group of girls who weren't even in my class. I didn't even know their names ( there were 300 girls in my year at school ). They didn't know mine!!! Mostly it made me feel confused. I had no feelings for these girls one way or the other, why didn't they just leave me alone? The rest of the time, it pissed me off. But I knew I shouldn't rise to their bait. I was determined they wouldn't 'win'. Yet there was little I could do about it. If I went to my parents and they went to the school, you knew all that would happen would be that the school would ask for the girls' names and I could only tell them what classes they were in! Then somehow it would come out that I'd gone to my parents etc. and that would really give the bullies something to get hold of. The worst day was when these girls decided that they were going to get another girl to beat me up. Why? I haven't the faintest idea! We were coming from lunch break and everyone was filing up the stairs. Suddenly, a girl I didn't know started shoving me from behind, just enough to unbalance me but not enough to actually push me over. She was telling me "You're for it" ( "I'm going to do something nasty to you") and then she started grabbing the collar of my shirt and yanking backwards. Of course the teacher who monitered the stairs at this time of day had just left her post to talk to someone and didn't see me being throttled. She, of course, reappeared just as I turned round and kicked the girl in the stomache,who then fell down the stairs we were standing on. Apart from a couple of bruises she was fine, I was in trouble. But that did it. I was still subject to taunting and having my bag grabbed and slung on low roofs etc. but nobady actually laid hands on me again. But it made me determined that I should be as much NOT like the girls that bullied me as possible. If they were going to bully me anyway, I might as well enjoy myself and give them something to concentrate on. I became a hippy. It may sound strange, but this was during the 'Punk Era' and at school there were two groups. Punks or 'Casuals'. So I was neither. I bought clothes from charity shops, wore beads and head bands. I embroidered "Love" on my school bag. The girls still picked on me but the more outrageous I dressed the more pathetic their taunting became. I started laughing openly at them. By the time I was 15 they finally got bored and left me alone. The point of this rant is just that. I reacted to being bullied by being furious. It could just as easily have been a reaction of depression, regardless of having a loving family and some good friends. I'm not saying that these girls never upset or made me cry, but my gut reaction was to lay the blame squarely where it belonged. But there are plenty of people I went to school with who are convinced I was bullied because I was a hippy! Inattention and woolly thinking are the reasons bullying exists. TTFN M'Lady P. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Irish sergeant Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:50 PM LAdy P; I figured they bully because they have to make themselfves seem superior. (My other theory is they do it because they're wankers)They didbn't need a reason in your case nor did they in mine. I suspect in my case had my father not died and I had stayed where I was in Ohio, that the bullying would have continued. They actually were quite brazen about it until I was maneuvered into a fight and won it. A pox on all bullies. may they rot in their own filth and so the administrators who do nothing to stop them! Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:41 PM This is another "no-brainer."
Children allowed by their parents to embrace the darkness are drawn to the darkness. (Oh, not that THIS is bad, it is only one aspect of oneness-with-the-universe.)
How often do you read in the newspapers, "Devote Jewish Boy Commits Suicide?"
For all of you no-brainers - this is a syllogism - i.e. fill in the missing piece - it has been truncated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: InOBU Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:47 PM Hi Gargoyle... in fact, it is the fact of prejudice which causes suiside among folks, for example Native child suisides among the Innu, and in fact, an inordinate number of concentration camp survivors became, in fact, Jewish suisides. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: InOBU Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:48 PM By the way, this does not mean I think the degree of prejudice among school children rises to that of the Nazis... but being separated out and branded gets deep into one's soul. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: 53 Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:35 PM Such a crying shame, that show should be banned along with a lot of other programs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:32 PM 53 -- The point some of us here have been trying to make is that "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" had almost nothing to do with Laura Pendall's suicide -- it was the bullying which did it. And, Gargoyle (or Guest pretending to be Gargoyle, whichever)-- I've seen many more reports of Christians commiting suicide than Wiccans... simply because there are a greater number of Christians in the general population. But because Christianity is seen as "normal", it's not deemed a relevant or exciting enough detail earn much attention in the news reports. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:52 PM Anyone who knows shit about Wicca knows it's not about "embracing the darkness." I think the fact that parents allow their children to follow whatever spiritual path is meaningful to them is a very good thing.
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:56 PM Ah, Capri...take a reading or logic course
I have never mentioned Christians and yet that the direction of your rebutal. Anyone in the mid-east would be proud to explain the difference to deaf-ears.
OBU - Nazis - Nazis -Nazis - why EVERYTIME "Jewishdom" is mentioned Nazis have to pop into the Goys mind?
Sincerly, |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 03 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM Gargoyle -- you're right. I haven't heard much about Jewish people committing suicide, possibly because there little official emphesis on the Afterlife in Judaic teaching (while it sometimes seems to be the one big teaching of Christianity -- especially when Christians are celebrating Easter). This is one major motive of suicide after all: the belief that it will be better 'on the other side'. I thought you were simply using Judaism as one example of a 'legitimate' religion (as opposed to Wicca, which you clearly believe to be illegimate). The 'direction of my rebuttal', as you put it, was simply to compare the press treatment of mainstream versus non-mainstream details. And if you want to talk logic and deductive reasoning and reading, I translated your post into one syllogism: "Following the 'Dark Side' will lead to violence. Wicca is the Dark Side. Therefore, following Wicca will lead to violence." Am I now to understand you to mean that every religion except Judaism is the 'Dark Side' (since you singled that religion out specifically, rather than being one example among many)?
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,TV Jerk Date: 04 Apr 02 - 09:06 AM Ahem...I thought Buffy was about VAMPIRES.............NOT witches or wiccans... |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: InOBU Date: 04 Apr 02 - 09:20 AM Garg: Old pal, you are usualy sarcastic and caustic but more careful in your rethoric than to make the rather emotional error you made. I was saying nothing about nazi's other than to point to one of the several syndromes of suisides among Jews. Jewish folks like many others do committ suiside. A dear friend of mine, who was a Scandinavian Jewish woman, attempted susiside by jumping from the Brooklyn bridge. She was one of the few to have survived that particualar way of attempting suiside, though she died later from emphasiema, when she basicly smoked herself to death. I don't have statistics in front of me, so I will not make the error you did, to presume there is as much - less - or more suiside among Jewish folks, niether of us have that number at hand at the moment. ALl the best, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Catherine Jayne Date: 04 Apr 02 - 10:46 AM Jez and I are pagan and have never come across prejudice for this we are very lucky. However both of us were bullied at school for being 'different' but not related to our religion. We agree that kids can be very cruel. cat and jez x |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:40 PM TV Jerk: Yes, Buffy is about a girl who slays vampires; but if you watch the show you would also realize that there are two characters who are indeed witches/Wiccans.
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 05 Apr 02 - 10:20 AM Well, Peg, actually ... ;-) There are characters on the show that are referred to as witches/Wiccans. But they're not like any Wiccans I know. Then again, Buffy aint exact-ally your average college sophomore, either... (or has she graduated already?)
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 05 Apr 02 - 10:25 AM good point, Capri! I concur, but these gals do refer to themselves as witches...wish *I* could do some of the stuff they can!
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 02 - 04:41 AM Let's shed a little light on the darkness
Information on Teen Suicide http://www.afsp.org/index-1.htm
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,Sandy Cookie Date: 06 Apr 02 - 04:45 AM Witches should seek solace in their coven. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Sky Date: 06 Apr 02 - 05:40 AM Clearly the issue here is whether it is acceptable to victimise another because they don't happen to share you're world view - the rest seems to be smoke and mirrors. Bullying is the problem – getting at those who are different, - primate Alpha-Animal programming gone heywire…again. PS I love Buffy, but the "witch" characters are not all Wiccans (one is Jewish, one hasn't said and one, who now I come to think of it said she was Wiccan, also thought she was part demon). However, despite being a witch myself and even a sort of Wiccan, I never saw anyone do 95% of the stuff they do on this show – that is because it is a fantasy. Point of information Not all witches are Wiccans and not all witches belong to covens – so solace should come from where you can safely find it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:12 AM good points, Sky; but I will say that even though the practice of witchcraft/Wicca is shown in a very fantastical way most of the time on Buffy, there are also a lot of details that are quite realistic, and the recent story line in which Willow gets addicted to magic is an interesting metaphor for drug addiction and, to some extent, the psychological damage that can be done by "dabbling" in the occult for purposes of exerting power over others, etc. The vast majority of witches do not belong to covens, so the suggestion that they seek solace there is unfortunately not a very useful one. Human beings need to be able to create effective support systems to help them and this poor child did not have a strong enough one, apparently.
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 06 Apr 02 - 01:20 PM Sky -- I agree. The issue here is bullying, especially in schools (where kids are forced to congregate -- you can't simply stay away from the person bullying you if s/he sits behind you in math class, for example). We grown-ups tell children and adolescents that they have to accept each other's differences on the one hand, while we put more and more of our energy into creating standardized tests, and state-wide curriculums on the other. I'd be very surprised if kids don't pick up on the unspoken message that "If you don't fit, you fail", and act on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,Neil Comer Date: 06 Apr 02 - 07:22 PM I am an avid fan of Buffy, Angel and Charmed. I wish that I could do/ look like/ be like what some of the characters do. I am none of the above and I accept that. Teenagers don't accept that and no matter how so much they try, whether it be through the way that they look and act, they don't succeed. That is when the mindless bullies get hold. Should TV lessen teenage expectation? Should more emphasis be put on realistic teenage lives ( it might be boring TV) but it may be more productive (rather than less harmful) |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST Date: 07 Apr 02 - 03:56 PM Tempest's mother, Danessa Smith, is filing a $10 million against the Lincoln Park School District. Twelve-year-old Tempest Smith hanged herself in Lincoln Park, Michigan. Tempest — a pagan — had endured months of teasing. Classmates taunted for her dark "Goth" clothing, and for her interest in Wicca. Tempest's journal entries document fellow students crowding around her to sing Christian hymns and chant "Jesus loves you."
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 07 Apr 02 - 04:42 PM Where is this information from, Guest? |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,Susan Casper Date: 08 Apr 02 - 12:42 AM A book by Susan Casper
Daria is a little girl with a problem. A very serious problem. A very serious problem in a I-crave-drinking-blood kind of way. Can anyone help her? |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 08 Apr 02 - 01:18 AM Susan: that last post seems quite unrelated to this thread, and a wee bit tasteless, considering. CapriUni; I do not know where the GUEST got that info on Tempest Smith but I do know this story was covered pretty intensively on Wren's Nest at www.witchvoxcom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Coyote Breath Date: 08 Apr 02 - 01:19 AM My kids went through hell at school. When I was in school I RAISED hell. My crowd and I were 1%ers, We kept the pose and the attitude of thugs and it kept us from being hasseled by the jocks. We belonged to a gang which was made up of kids from the East side of Milwaukee and not connected to any particular school. We hung out at Francesca's Pizzeria and we rode bobbed harley's and drove "modified" street rods and we "bopped" when the need arose. We were true shits! But we were also willing to accept anyone, even those kids who were geeky and lame (that is slang for out-of-it, not handicapped) because we knew they were outsiders too. We figured that ANYTHING we did that annoyed the school administration or the jocks (they were P.I.T.) was worth doing. It was easier for us then because the school officials had strict rules and we knew just which ones to break and when. My kids were in a discipline vacuum in a way. The jocks were all powerful and encouraged by the faculty to harrass the goths and grungers and gays and other "misfits". When Columbine happened my youngest, who was still in High school at the time, said she wasn't surprised at all. She said that it could happen at her school too. She was commenting on the rampant harrassment and favoritism and it was a legitimate remark but it could have gotten her in a great deal of trouble had it been overheard at school. Our schools, with a few exceptions, are the best argument for home schooling, ever. CB
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 08 Apr 02 - 09:28 AM The jocks were all powerful and encouraged by the faculty to harrass the goths and grungers and gays and other "misfits". How did the officials encourage this harrassement, CB? By turning a blind eye? By penalizing those victims who complained? I agree, that with all the changes in the school systems over the last decade or so (more and more emphesis on standardized testing, the use of ADA and IDEA [Individuals with Disabilities Education Act] to segregate students to seperate classroom within the same school building), home schooling looks more and more attractive. But it has its drawbacks, too. The main one being that kids don't have the space to create their own culture, free from their parents' control, which, I think, is a main goal of growing up. Let's face it: "The School System" is, theoretically, not seperate from us. (And here comes the folk tie in) If we citizens could organize to protest the Vietnam war, and the cold war arms race, then surely, we can do something about the education culture. I admit, it's trickier because of mandated local control (at least, in America) so working to change the system would be like trying to wrestle a thousand-armed octopus (Oxymoron, I know ;-)). But if we want to stop incidents like Columbine, and Laura and Tempest's deaths, then I think we'd better start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,John 3:19 Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:23 AM John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:28 AM Oh, of course. The BIBLE will make everything all right. As I recall, it was kids viciously chanting bible verses that made Tempest Smith want to kill herself. I kinda know how she felt. Light doesn't exist without darkness. And ignorance doesn't exist without enlightment. Show me a world with no opposites and I will show you a person living a life of illusion.
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:59 PM Hey, don't you know it's a waste of your day
Caught up in endless solutions
That have no meaning, just another hunch
Based upon jumping conclusions
Caught up in endless solutions
Backed up against a wall of confusion
Living a life of illusion |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Coyote Breath Date: 10 Apr 02 - 12:22 AM Yes CapriUni. by turning a blind eye, by NOT following up when kids complained, by telling the kids who complained that they were "bringing it on themselves". I was unaware of what was happening in my kid's school because my kids were afraid to tell me and their mom. Not afraid that we would blame them but that we would "make a scene" and we WOULD have. With all their desire to "be different" they were afraid of being too different. When my daughter's DID tell us about their experiences, I was stunned. Repeated questions about how this happened led me to believe that the schools are way too concerned about such things as sports and less so about what sort of socialization is actually taking place. I have no children in my local school system but I have participated in helping to establish school policy by volunteering on various comittees. I agree that we need to attend to our schools. I mentioned home schooling because where I live it is very popular and often put forth as an answer to education's many problems. MY main criticism isn't that kids don't have the space to create their own culture but that they have less opportunity to experience a social "mix", diversity, if you will. It is easier in our small town for the community as a whole to be involved in the kid's lives. The Columbine events are the result of a combination of deep psychological turmoil, administrative remoteness, overworked faculty and community disinterest and a "I want it all now" culture which see kids only as consumers. CB |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 10 Apr 02 - 10:05 AM MY main criticism isn't that kids don't have the space to create their own culture but that they have less opportunity to experience a social "mix", diversity, if you will. Maybe we're talking about the same thing -- that kids create their own culture by mixing bits and tidbits with the culture of their friends and rivals. But if your culture is based solely on that of your parents, then you have only one example of the "right" way to do things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST Date: 11 Apr 02 - 01:57 AM Need this up next to the other Teenager Thread - dont disturb |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 11 Apr 02 - 12:16 PM GUEST: who are you, the thread police??? the two threads are really not related other than the fact that they both deal with teens. Committing suicide because your peers relentlessly tease you about your spiritual beliefs is far different from beig a bit distressed over pimples (which, frankly, nearly all teens go through at one time or another). You are obviously the same person who suggested these two threads are linked because the girl with pimples might get depressed which could lead her to suicide; this is a pretty pessimistic view.
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Apr 02 - 02:01 PM "making teenagers depressed is like shooting fish in a barrel" -Bart Simpson- And well, kids are mean... it's never surprising that they pick on someone... Especially someone who wants to call themselves something as 'out there' as 'witch'... May as well walk though highschool calling yourself a 'superhero'.. you'll be just as much an outcast... Some folks have the stones to endure that... some don't... |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: guinnesschik Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:46 AM Ugh, GUEST, quoting Joe Walsh. Couldn't you have chosen someone a little more....relevent? |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 02 - 10:49 AM You all seem to have gone off the point. If you believe in anything, shouldn't you be praying or sending out positive thoughts to the family of the young girl so tormented that she gave her life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 12 Apr 02 - 01:35 PM How do you know we're not doing that, Guest? And in my beliefs, part of positive thought is positive action, to figure out how to stop this kind of thing in the future... |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Clinton Hammond Date: 12 Apr 02 - 02:27 PM One cannot save everyone... |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: CapriUni Date: 12 Apr 02 - 11:02 PM Maybe not, Clinton, but if I try, and end up saving only one person, then that effort made a world of difference to that person, and that person's family, and the friends of the people in that person's family, and ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST,kidshealth Date: 17 Apr 02 - 11:35 PM http://www.kidshealth.org/teen/index2.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Clinton Hammond Date: 18 Apr 02 - 02:05 AM and in the overall picture, it won't mean a lick... No more than your or my death... besides, it's just death... It's nothing worth getting worked up about eh... "death smiles at us all... all we can do is smile back" |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Peg Date: 18 Apr 02 - 11:44 AM This CHILD committeed SUICIDE because she was being TEASED. That is much more tragic than some poor slob like any of the rest of us passing away peacefully after a full life...to choose to take one's own life is a far cry from being taken by the fates when our time has come. For someone so young to do so is horrible and when this sort of thing does happen, it affects people. People with hearts, anyway.
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Clinton Hammond Date: 18 Apr 02 - 12:21 PM I'd suspect that the teasing was just part of it... It's unfortunate that she didn't have access to the help she needed...
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 02 - 10:01 PM In my school the jocks were bullies...and the anti-jocks were bullies. Kind of hard to tell who was worst, but they hated each other, of course, which kept them busy part of the time when they weren't torturing people like me who didn't belong to either group. If you build a society on the notion of ruthless competition at every level, this is one of the results. It's the law of the jungle, tied to money and "success". It is also the road to perdition, and it is truly "embracing the darkness". I see the sickness of it every day of my life...on the TV, in the news, on the highway, on the job. Barbarian ethics have taken over the world, and popular culture echoes that in its commercial advertising. I once did a search on Ebay to see if people had registered themselves under self-deprecating names. They had! I found people with member names such as "the idiot", "village idiot", "major idiot", "moron", "sh*thead", "filthyswine", "motherf*cker", "Fatass", "Deadmeat" and every other thing like that you can imagine...except for ONE... Ya know what it was? "Major Loser" Tells you something doesn't it? In the competitive culture, you can be any kind of total *sshole with enthusiasm, belligerence and pride, but God forbid that you should be...a loser! Ha! What contempt I have for all those would-be "winners" out there who are clawing their way to the top. I saw their spiritual blood-brothers when I was in school, and I know corrupted, deluded barbarians when I see them. I also know, that deep down...they are scared. I didn't know it then, but I do now. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:40 PM and the bullying made you into a better person so be thankful |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: GUEST Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:16 AM why "another" have there been more? |
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Subject: RE: BS: another teen witch suicide From: WickedLad Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:49 AM Bullying causing suicide Its surprising that noone in this litigeous age has sued The system would change rapidly if that happened But is that the best avenue For those interested here is a very good suicide support website http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.suicide.html |