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Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You'
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Subject: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM Too un-PC?? "Yer best mate's a spade and he carries a hod" Opinions folks??
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:52 PM oh c'mon, please, trolling are we, non-pc because it caricatures the IRish? or you don't know what a spade is? or funny ha ha? Not |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:08 PM I'm not intentionally trolling at all... I'm asking a legit question... Near as I can suss it, a 'spade' in that context is a black dude, and how is that any better/worse than singing 'nigger'??? I think it's a pretty good song, and I'd add it to my set list in a heart beat, but this line gave me a moments pause... So I'm curious as to others opinions... |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:47 PM You're right to hesitate, Clinton. When I first joined a black church and made a ton of black friends, I had to excise the term, "I've got...... in spades." fill in the blank. You're really treading on dangerous ground if you're singing about a black Mick! Funny thing is, when I really bend the strings, or snap them doing a bluesy black gospel song, my friend Frankie always says, "Play that guitar, white boy!" And we always get a good laugh out of it. I've also had to drop some of my old-time introductions to songs saying "You ready, boys?" Some blacks are still uncomfortable with that word. None of the guys in my quartet, but when we're singing with other blacks in the audience, some still have painful, denigrating memories of being called "boy." Many years ago, I was standing in the lobby of the Museum where I worked, and the wife of the Director came in and called to a black friend of mine, "Boy, go out and bring in the box on the front seat of my car." I could see the steam coming out of his ears. When I'm singing songs with offensive lyrics... like "Makes a nigger's lips go flippety flop," I just change it to "Makes my lips go flippety flop." Not knowing the context of the song you're quoting, it's hard to tell whether you could change it. Sounds like a "dissing" verse to me. Maybe Spaw could help you... :-) Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:11 PM There used to be a term for black West Indians in London -"Toasted Irishmen". I don't know if it's ever used today. I was quite pleased with it - it identified being Irish as being not eligible to be included within the camp of the white racists. And that's how I'd sooner have it. (It didn't mean and it doesn't means that you don't get Irish racists, sadly - but it helped to define them for some people anyway as a kind of traitor to what being Irish is about.)
Some words are clearly intended as insulting, they've taken on that character over the years. I not at all sure thta that "spade" falls in that category any more than "black" - though of course in the mouth of a racist any term can be loaded with venom. Even something as innocuous as "cousins" or "friends" can be used that way. And of course at different times and places the same word carries different baggage, and Christie Moore isn't singing in the same part of the world as Jerry (well he is some of the time, but only in passing as it were.) |
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Subject: Lyr Add: MISSING YOU (from Christy Moore) From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:12 PM I suppose it'd help to have the lyrics here eh... hang on a sec... Hope I get this stupid HTML right...
Missing You
In nineteen hundred and eighty six
Who did you murder, are you a spy? |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: michaelr Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:00 PM "...to where you're a paddy, a biddy or a mick Good for nothing but stacking a brick." The writer (Jimmy MacCarthy, BTW) is obviously not giving his own opinion, but mirroring the prejudices he encounters. This also applies to the next line which has the "spade" reference. MacCarthy engages in a bit of wordplay ("spade...carries a hod"). If you know anything about MacCarthy or Christy Moore, it should be clear that neither of them can be labelled a racist by any stretch of the imagination. The nonsense perpetrated under the umbrella of Political Correctness has reached the height of absurdity. Did you know that in California there is a movement that wants people who have dogs or cats to be called "pet guardians" instead of "pet owners"? Seriously! Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:07 PM "The nonsense perpetrated under the umbrella of Political Correctness has reached the height of absurdity" My feelings exactly, but I wanted to bounce it off the rest of you catters... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:13 PM Only in California... Reading the lyrics, Clinton, I don't think blacks would be offended by it. The term "spade" (which is as up to date as "Twenty three skidoo" or "cool") was not usually meant as a derogatory term, way back in the sixties. Not having heard the word used in forty years, I suspect that it wouldn't have much of an impact, one way or another. The song sounds GREAT! Do it. You never know who you'll offend. But, I think that people respond to a song or something that's said in the context of how they view the person. As long as you don't have a red neck, white socks and a bottle of Blue Ribbon beer, they'll most likely cut you any slack you need. Come to think of it, that song is insulting to dumb racists.. :-) Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:24 PM Actually anyone who thinks they "own" a cat is pretty crazy. < The label "politically correct" is a con-trick, and the term is in my experience far more used by people making fun of it than by people propagating it. Maybe it's different in other places.
When we try to avoid using language in a way that encourage people to hate and despise each other, or that makes people feel under attack, that is a matter of common courtesy and common sense, not "political correctness".
There are two types of people who make it their business to go beyond that, and who rely on this absurd label "politically correct" as a mechanism for manipulating people.
On the one hand there are those whose purpose is to undermine that kind of common courtesy and common sense.
And on the other hand there are those who are intent on exploiting the existence of intolerance as a tool for personal advancement and as a weapon against rivals.
And in practice these two type of people are allies. |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:18 AM since the song is about England in the 1980's, and is speaking from the workman's point of view, let's hear from some English folk as to how that word is used and accepted in Britain. It always came across as being false in American usage, though definitey not as harsh as 'nigger', more cariactured than 'black', where it does occur, but rarely. The point in the song is whatever your background in the building trades in London, you were a mick, a paddy, a biddy, a spade, a packy, etc. The old Colonial power came up with all kinds of cute names for its 'subjects'. |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:56 AM When I was young the term "spade" was used as a term of respect and indicated that the person referred to was "ccol". I think it was used predominantly by aficionados of jazz music. As used in the Christy Moore song it is used in the same spirit as Dominic Behan used "Darkie" in Mcalpine's Fusiliers. Is anyone suggesting we stop singing these songs? Surely not. |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:13 AM Spade is an offensive racial epithet to blacks. But this thread seems to have entirely missed the point. The use of the word is part of the list of the offensive ethnic epithets to the Irish. The songwriter is likely attempting to do a couple of things with the choice of words. 1. Speak to the use of offensive epithets, rather ethnic or racial. 2. Suggest solidarity between Irish workers and black workers (which rarely exists on the ground, in my opinion). 3. Equate the use of racial epithets with ethnic epithets, which nearly guarantees challenges from those who believe racism is worse than ethnic bigotry and prejudice, even when the everyday realities of some ethnic groups in some places at certain times have equalled the everyday realities of some racial groups in some places at certain times. This sort of manipulation usually feeds directly into the political games of "hierarchies of oppression" the left too often engages in, in my view. Personally, I've always found those particular sorts of contemporary Irish emigration songs offensive. To my ear, the easy rhyming of epithets, and suggestion that the Irish in Britain suffer the same oppression as blacks is not only unnecessarily inflammatory, it is also a very distorted and wrong view of how racism and ethnic bigotry work on the ground. |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:17 AM Moleskin Joe asks: "Is anyone suggesting we stop singing these songs? Surely not." Darkie is also a nasty racial epithet. And yes, I am suggesting we stop singing these songs. And pay reparations for slavery too. |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:09 PM Thanks fer yer input Guest, but I have to admit... your words would have more weight if you weren't faceless... Ta all! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: UB Ed Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM Its a great song, period. PC is just way too far gone. But, in context (all in a "labeled" minority) should mitigate the ire of the PC police. If not, f#!k 'em. The use of all those terms was to get the reaction and set the tone. Ed |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Amergin Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM not if he is suggesting folks pay reparations for slavery.... |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:54 PM I'm a bit confused by the setting of ethnic as opposed to racist in that post by somebody-or-other, as if one were of less significance than the other, and as if you could draw a clear distinction between them.
At different times and places human beings have found all kinds of reasons to pick out other people as being different in some way that is seen as justifying expoiting them, discriminating against them, depising them, or even killing them. Pretend they belong to some different "race", pick on some aspect of the way they look or dress or the way they talk, or where they or their parents came from, or whatever.
You don't fight that kind of thing by splitting people up and deciding that some kinds of -ism matter and some other kinds of -ism don't matter. Great song anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: GUEST,Wolfgang Date: 28 Mar 02 - 03:50 AM I'm confused too. How is the word 'ethnic' used here? But I admit I have often been confused by this word, like e.g. in 'ethnic food' or 'ethnic music'. Is German food ethnic food in the USA? Is German yodeling ethnic music in Great Britain and in the North of Germany but not in Bavaria? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Watson Date: 28 Mar 02 - 09:25 AM Let's all be confused together then. An ethnic group is one defined by a common racial or cultural origin, so the words "ethnic" and "racial" should be synonymous. And what will our friend GUEST do when we've stopped singing all the offensive songs? ...Tear out the nasty pages in the history books perhaps? Problem there - we won't know who to blame for the slave trade, or where to send the bill. |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: UB Ed Date: 28 Mar 02 - 09:57 AM Indeed, and the political correctness madness continues. Seems common sense has no place. Just recently on this side of the pond, a number of descendents of slaves in the U.S. who worked on our railroads are suing the rail companies for repartations. Slavery was abolished (I believe in 1865) at the end of our civil war. While slavery was/is a terrible thing, at what point does someone apply some objectivity and move on, working to effectuate positive change? Same with these types of songs. MacCarthy has an excellent tune with meaningful lyrics depicting the "Facts" of that particular situation. Sure its tough, but that's how it actually was. Its instructive on many different levels. Ed |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: GUEST,Den at work Date: 28 Mar 02 - 10:07 AM How come noone has a problem with Paddy Biddy or Mick. They are equally as offensive to Irish people as spade or nigger are to black people. In the context of the song however the writer is dealing with the names given to Black and Irish immigrant workers in England. Den |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Clinton Hammond Date: 28 Mar 02 - 12:14 PM That's also sorta my point Den at work... ;-)
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Mar 02 - 01:42 PM Ethnic refers to culture, and doesn't really depend on "race" (whatever that means). And it is a term that relates to all types of culture. Morris dancing for example. Marmite is every bit as much ethnic food as chow mein. |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: Clinton Hammond Date: 28 Mar 02 - 01:45 PM race is a misnomer... There is only ONE race of upright walking, tool using, environment raping homonid on the planet right now... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Debate... Christy M's 'Missing You' From: GUEST Date: 28 Mar 02 - 02:19 PM Race and ethnicity are not synonymous, interchangeable words. But if y'all are so pig ignorant you don't even know that much, I guess that makes your opinions worth about as much the dirt you are pissing them into here. |
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