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'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)

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In Mudcat MIDIs:
I Ain't So Young (from Randolph/Legman Roll Me In Your Arms)


Lonesome EJ 04 Apr 02 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Apr 02 - 06:27 PM
Abby Sale 04 Apr 02 - 06:30 PM
greg stephens 04 Apr 02 - 07:21 PM
Joe Offer 04 Apr 02 - 08:23 PM
raredance 04 Apr 02 - 08:43 PM
Lonesome EJ 05 Apr 02 - 12:40 AM
Les B 05 Apr 02 - 12:54 AM
Joe Offer 05 Apr 02 - 01:03 AM
Lonesome EJ 05 Apr 02 - 01:24 AM
masato sakurai 05 Apr 02 - 01:32 AM
GUEST,kevinhowcroft@hotmail.com 05 Apr 02 - 04:38 AM
Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland 05 Apr 02 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Ian 05 Apr 02 - 07:54 AM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 02 - 08:30 AM
Malcolm Douglas 05 Apr 02 - 08:38 AM
Abby Sale 05 Apr 02 - 10:05 AM
Abby Sale 05 Apr 02 - 10:11 AM
Lonesome EJ 05 Apr 02 - 12:09 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Apr 02 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Les B. 05 Apr 02 - 05:08 PM
GUEST 05 Apr 02 - 05:19 PM
Abby Sale 05 Apr 02 - 05:23 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Apr 02 - 05:41 PM
Bill D 05 Apr 02 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Les B. 06 Apr 02 - 02:06 AM
Abby Sale 06 Apr 02 - 10:12 AM
Les B 06 Apr 02 - 02:42 PM
greg stephens 06 Apr 02 - 02:49 PM
Abby Sale 06 Apr 02 - 07:19 PM
Charley Noble 06 Feb 03 - 08:21 AM
Charley Noble 06 Feb 03 - 08:35 AM
Bill D 06 Feb 03 - 11:01 AM
Abby Sale 06 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM
Joe Offer 06 Feb 03 - 10:37 PM
Rapparee 07 Feb 03 - 07:02 AM
Abby Sale 07 Feb 03 - 10:45 AM
masato sakurai 07 Feb 03 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 07 Feb 03 - 10:51 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 07 Feb 03 - 11:43 PM
Mockingbird MacGillickutty 08 Feb 03 - 12:24 AM
harpgirl 08 Feb 03 - 01:31 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 08 Feb 03 - 01:35 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 08 Feb 03 - 01:40 AM
harpgirl 08 Feb 03 - 01:53 AM
Joe Offer 08 Feb 03 - 03:25 AM
harpgirl 08 Feb 03 - 09:43 AM
Abby Sale 08 Feb 03 - 12:05 PM
dick greenhaus 08 Feb 03 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Q 08 Feb 03 - 07:14 PM
boab d 08 Feb 03 - 08:11 PM
toadfrog 08 Feb 03 - 08:34 PM
Malcolm Douglas 08 Feb 03 - 09:15 PM
GUEST 09 Feb 03 - 04:12 AM
emjay 16 May 04 - 12:57 AM
GUEST,Strudelbag 16 May 04 - 11:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 May 04 - 09:28 PM
dick greenhaus 16 May 04 - 11:53 PM
GUEST,austranglish@yahoo.com 15 Jun 04 - 07:16 AM
JWB 15 Jun 04 - 11:15 AM
JohnInKansas 15 Jun 04 - 01:38 PM
Abby Sale 15 Jun 04 - 04:58 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 04 - 05:20 PM
Abby Sale 15 Jun 04 - 06:55 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 04 - 07:10 PM
Lighter 16 Jun 04 - 10:35 AM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Jun 04 - 10:40 AM
Lighter 16 Jun 04 - 10:42 PM
GUEST,graham a 19 Oct 07 - 06:28 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Oct 07 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,fuelair 02 Apr 09 - 08:06 PM
Rowan 03 Apr 09 - 12:08 AM
Joe Offer 01 Jul 12 - 07:15 PM
JohnInKansas 01 Jul 12 - 08:22 PM
EBarnacle 01 Jul 12 - 10:51 PM
Joe Offer 01 Jul 12 - 11:21 PM
Uke 01 Jul 12 - 11:52 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 12 - 03:05 AM
JohnInKansas 02 Jul 12 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 02 Jul 12 - 05:41 AM
ChrisJBrady 02 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 12 - 07:05 AM
Ross Campbell 02 Jul 12 - 08:20 AM
EBarnacle 02 Jul 12 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,Lighter 02 Jul 12 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 02 Jul 12 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 12 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 02 Jul 12 - 12:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Jul 12 - 01:55 PM
Joe Offer 02 Jul 12 - 02:01 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM
JohnInKansas 02 Jul 12 - 04:03 PM
GUEST 26 Feb 15 - 09:33 PM
Joe Offer 22 Mar 16 - 01:28 PM
Abby Sale 28 Mar 16 - 11:22 AM
Joe Offer 28 Mar 16 - 05:57 PM
Stewie 29 Mar 16 - 10:56 AM
GUEST,RA 21 May 17 - 06:38 PM
Jim Carroll 22 May 17 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Lighter 22 May 17 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,RA 23 May 17 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 23 May 17 - 06:03 AM
Joe Offer 23 May 17 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,RA 23 May 17 - 05:11 PM
Joe Offer 26 May 17 - 01:20 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: SPENCER RIFLE
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:33 PM

Vance Randolph compiled a huge amount of folk material he collected throughout the Ozark Mountains. Much of it was recorded and released immediately, but another whole genre of songs and stories were set aside as too off-color for the popular taste. Recently, this off-color material was printed as Unprintable Songs. This book sells for $60, and it isn't currently in my budget, but as a fan of naughty stuff in general, I'm highly interested in the songs. Does anyone have the book? If so, can you post any lyrics from it? I'll post one that I have found below.

SPENCER RIFLE

When Johnny came to my house,
I swore he'd come to see me.
Soon I'd found the rascal out,
he'd only come to squeeze me.

He grabbed me round the slender waist,
and on the bed he throwed me.
The prettiest thing I ever saw,
he pulled it out and showed me.

He said it was his little gun.
He asked how it would suit me.
He shoved it down between my thighs
and swore by God he'd shoot me.

Well, I said, "John, your gun's no good,
or your no good at gunning.
If you can't hit a lying mark,
then what'd you do a-running."

Well, "Gee," said John, "my gun's alright.
I got it from Old Spencer.
Now you lie still, and hold the mark,
and I'll sure knock it center."

Well, Katie laid still, and held the mark.
For him, it was no trifle
for to soon show her what he could do
with his old Spencer rifle.

Katie was a fair and a charming maid.
She wasn't barely twenty.
By the time he'd fired seven rounds,
well, he'd had pork aplenty.

Her mother finally found them out.
Good order she commanded.
John cocked up with a double load,
and he shot at her off-handed


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:27 PM

Thank you EJ for the lead on this compilation. Vol. 1 published in 1992 and Vol. 2 in 1994. I will add them to my collection and post in the near future. The Amazon review is a resounding five star.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:30 PM

I have it. Had wanted it for decades. (But it only was printed posthumously, in the 90's) It's TWO books, actually, Roll Me in Your Arms and (naturally) Blow the Candles Out. They were called The unprintable collection loosely, since Randolph was not permitted to print them. It is a tragic fact that Randolph was castigated, impoverished and driven out of academe for his insistance that this 10% of legitimately collected material should not be censored out of the rest of the material. (This is controversial, though.)

If you buy it, be sure to get both volumes. Index is in vol. 2. You might be able to beat the price a bit on the online used book or auction market.

Randolph's work is brilliant as is Legman's notation.

I'm not likely to start typing the whole thing up but if there is anything in particular you're interested in... Often you can "score" simply asking if there is a bawdy version of almost any trad song.

:-)


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 07:21 PM

Lets leave really unprintable songs unprintable.Then the folk process can continue untoubled by anyone!


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 08:23 PM

Oh, darn. This may get me on a book-buying binge again. I got Roll Me In Your Arms, (Volume 1), for twenty bucks a while back. So far, I've been able to resist the urge to by the second volume, Blow the Candle Out, because I didn't think it had songs.
The first volume is a great collection of bawdy songs, well-annotated. Some of them stem from the days of my youth, which makes me feel pretty old...
So, what am I missing in the second volume?

I checked "unprintable" "randolph" at www.bookfinder.com, and found the volumes run $50 to $60 each (new), but a Canadian bookseller has the two volumes used for $69 US.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: raredance
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 08:43 PM

So JOe, you should buy the Canadian set, then sell me the $20 one you no longer need :-)

rich r


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:40 AM

Oh come on Abbey or Joe O, post at least one of the shorter songs just to maintain a needed level of bawdiness on the forum.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Les B
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:54 AM

I've only got a couple of Randolph's books; Vol. 2 - Songs of the South & West, and Pissing in the Snow, which I stumbled onto in a used bookstore, but boy did he do some fine work.

I've got to say, in this day and age, what the hell could be considered "unprintable" when you see some of the stuff that's spread around the internet.

Where can one read about his career and his publishing fight with Academia ?


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Subject: ADD: The Old Cat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:03 AM

Ahem!
Well, I have to say that although I'm glad to have this book and will post songs if people request them, there are many I won't post on my own initiative. I'm a shy kinda guy, ya know, and most of these songs tend to make me blush.

Here's a cute one, though.

The Old Cat

The old cat shit on the shavings,
The old cat shit on the shavings,
The old cat shit on the shavings,
And covered it up with her paw.

The old folks thought it was raisins,
The old folks thought it was raisins,
The old folks thought it was raisins,
And baked it into a pie.

Similarly,

The old dog pissed on the bedpost,
The old dog pissed on the bedpost,
The old dog pissed on the bedpost,
And that was Irish, too.


Tune: "He's a Jolly Good Fellow" or "The Bear Went Over the Mountain."

-Joe Offer, off to find more songs he's willing to post-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:24 AM

LOL! Well done, in the spirit of a true Seminary student! :>}


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:32 AM

It must be noted these two volumes were published by the University of Arkansas Press. Though there're some exceptions (for example, Ed Cray's The Erotic Muse), most university presses are indifferent to bawdy things. Bawdy or erotic folksongs have sometimes been discussed in scholarly journals, but examples themselves are often omitted or edited. Such materials were almost always, if ever, published in hard-to-get books and articles (see G. Legman's "Erotic Folksongs and Ballads: An International Bibliography," Journal of American Folklore, vol. 103, no. 410, pp. 417-501).

~Masato


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,kevinhowcroft@hotmail.com
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:38 AM

try pills to purge melancholy, or not as you wish


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:17 AM

Greg,

These songs that you think are unprintable and should remain that way. Well as a folksinger (of sorts) I think that's a shame because if we don't sing them then they will be forgotten, is not what the folk process is supposed to be to keep songs alive, and it doesn't matter if anyone else likes them.

These songs were written to be sung.

Keep the bawdy and unprintable songs going.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 07:54 AM

The Bonny Black Hare (oft. performed by Dave Swarbrick & Fairport COnvention) must come close in this category! I learnt the melody on my Mandolin, figured out what it was all about & have since chickened out from singing it in company! For some reason the lyrics are missing from the DT.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 08:30 AM

Well, here's an unprintable song from my extended family to the tune of "If I had the Wings of an Angel":

I love to see Nellie make #####,
She ##### a beautiful stream;
She shoots it a mile and a quarter,
And you can't see her #### for steam.

At least I've never seen it in print.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 08:38 AM

There are two sets of Bonny Black Hare in the DT, though one is spelled bonnie, for some reason. In neither case is a correct source given, but these were later supplied in a thread on the subject.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 10:05 AM

Ian & Malcolm: This is one of the (many) areas in which Unprintable truely becomes valuable as a research tool. "Bonny Black Hare" is a fine old song but I've only heard Carthy sing it. Since it's sort of key-optional & since I haven't 1000th the control Carthy has, it's kinda hard for me to sing.

Randolph gives a version, apparently learned about 1890. Other than changing the date of the events, it has remarkably similar text to the English version. However, it uses "Villikins" ("Sweet Betsy") for a tune. This scans extremely well except one squeezed line. Actually scans somewhat better than Carthy's tune.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 10:11 AM

Quoting (ahem) myself from a post to rec.music.folk (from Google - I didn't keep it, Subject: Re: Source of "House of the Rising Sun" - with the "Nasty verses" - 1999/10/28) re a long thread re male standpoint versions of "House of the Rising Sun:"

Legman gives the first-ever notation of the song as by Lomax in 1937 from Kentucky. He printed in _Our Singing Country_ and then in _F. S. of North Amer_ as "Rising Sun Blues" with text as is commonly known. However Lomax gives "tell my sister" with "brother" as an alternate. According to Legman this is the source of the title change and the purpose was to reduce direct references to prostitution (although the song's first line remains intact.)

Yes, the male standpoint is then given. Collected in the Ozarks by Randolph first in 1949 and all 3 Ozark texts are from the male POV. "Nasty verses" were self-censored. However, Randolph got them from a 1950 Ozark singer who reportedly learned them from miners in 1905:

There is a house in New Orleans,
They call it the Rising Sun,
And when you want your pecker spoilt
That's where you get it done.

They drink all day an' fuck all night
Until your money's gone;
They kick your ass out in the street
When the second shift comes on...


Note that this well-preceeds the well-known blues versions.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:09 PM

Somehow, Abbey, those bawdy verses fit the theme of the song as well as any of the "mournful" ones we're used to hearing. My guess is that many of the lyrics we are familiar with for traditional songs have been modified from the original forms, primarily so they could be "printable".


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:58 PM

G. Legman has a couple of articles in the Journal of the American Folklore Society Vol 103, that you might find interesting if the Journal is in your local library.

masato sakurai noted above that in Vol 103, No. 410, October-December 1990 page 417, his Erotic Folksongs and Ballads: An International Bibliography is a very long listing of hundreds of obscure and unobtainable (possibly non-existent?) citations.

Mr. Legman was involved for many years in a running dispute with "the academics" who had disparaged his (and Vance Randolph's) work as "unscholarly," due to his failure to "cite fully from published sources." One might debate whether this was his "I can too," or "You b...ds wouldn't wouldn't know the difference if I just made up a bunch of s...t," but it was impressive.

The following is the "header" from a separate article, "Unprintable" Folklore: the Vance Randolph Collection, by Mr. Legman, from the same Journal. My records are incomplete. I believe this article begins on page 259 of the same "volume" of the JAFS, although it doesn't appear on the banner page list of articles for that issue.


During most of his working life, Vance Randolph, the great Ozark folklorist and writer, failed to receive the recognition he deserved from the folklore establishment, and he was forced by publishing convention to suppress the substantial and important erotic stories and songs in his collection. The forthcoming publication by University of Arkansas Press of Randolph's heretofore "unprintable" songs and other lore provides an occasion for examining the character, causes, and costs of suppressing such materials.

The article - some 20 pages worth - expounds in some detail on the "politics" of publishing unexpurgated folklore, and has some interesting opinions on a number of frequently cited (and frequently quoted) published works. Mr. Gershon relates some of Vance Randolph's difficulties with "folklorist" academicians, without too much complaint about his own similar difficulties.

While researching something else, I came across a report of Mr. Legman's attendance at a conference of the AFS - on their web site. When I learned, a couple of weeks later, of Mr Legman's death, I went back to the web site to see if I should learn a little more about him - and found found that he has been "expunged" from the site. The page that I had printed on my first visit now made no mention of him - but was still displayed as an "archived" page with no indication of "correction." So much for historical accuracy by academicians(?).

The Vance Randolph item cited above gives a pretty good idea of why(?) this may have happened.

John


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:08 PM

Thanks, John, I'll see if my local library can get it through inter-library loan. Isn't Academia, in general, a strange community of self-centered puritans !!


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:19 PM

The problem isn't usually with the academics, but with the publishers (including publishers of academia, few of whom are academics).


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:23 PM

JiC: Well put. Long as you're checking journals, have a look for Southern Folklore Quarterly 40(1976), pp 59-122. (I got it on Inter-Library Loan - they copied it free for me.) It's a fascinating study on & called "Bawdy Monologues and Rhymed Recitations." Includes items as "The Wild West Show" and "Daniel in the Lions' Den.'

On those occasions that Legman did find a venue to publish he made the most of it and wrote everything he could come up with on the topic. And that was often a whole lot.

He was certainly an "evil genius." His scholarship was staggeringly complete and I feel sure that comment on 'his failure to "cite fully from published sources."' is an implied slander. He cited (as you wrote) from voluminous sources that check out completely legit. He also cited from many unpublished and manuscript and extremely rare sources from his personal collecting and field work. These would have been nearly impossible for others to verify but I think few tried - few went to Legman's study to look themselves. On the other hand, I have the impression that his off-hand opinions, claims and observations may have exceeded strick factuality.

He was ostracized. He was a brilliant scholar and also a true vulgarian and also an extreme lecher. I have a bit of bio material on him if you're interested. He was personally responsible for the whole Western interest in origami - from his 1955 exhibit.

His death went unnoticed for several years. I tried to contact him through his publisher and several collegues for two years. It finally came out he'd died in 1999. He is due considerable credit for his work.

Not the least, Legman is due great credit for his work on the Unprintable. It's good work and just the footnotes lead you to hundreds more strings of interest. (Not unlike this forum.) It must have been a great pleasure to Randolph to know Legman had taken on this massive task - although a bit sad that Randolph died - a broken man - before it was published.

I hadn't heard of Legman's erasure from scholarly pages but it doesn't surprise me at all. He was the bane of the priggish academic. That does still amaze me. In these days of pornographic commix, Playboy TV, detail description of Mr Clinton's sex life on network TV, etc - why this furror about bawdy folksong? How can it be that as of today, there are only three (3 - count 'em) scholarly works in print using bawdy folksong. Three! Unprintable , Cray's Erotic Muse and Logsdon's WhoreHouse Bells... (on Cowboy songs.) (There are several editions of Merry Muses including one by Legman but I mean folksongs.)

Sure, many under-the-counter song books & one or two over-the-counter ones. But few have music & no others I know of are properly annotated. And all three in the 1990's. There are no such collections of logger's or prostitute's or miner's songs and most amazing, no sailor songs. (Yes, I know you know "The Good Ship Venus" but you know what I mean.)

Hugill notes, eg, that "Leave Her Johnny" was the bawdiest chantey of all but I've never seen a single bawdy verse of it. Now, here's the thing. Hugill is reputed to have collected (and sung at least once when drunk) many bawdy sea songs & verses. There had to have been huge numbers of them. But he never published, recorded or allowed himself to be taped singing any. In one of those obscure footnotes in Unprintable, Legman claimed to have Hugill's manuscript bawdy collection. He would, he said, work it up the same as he did for Randolph. Of course, we have nothing of it, but did he really have such a collection? Did it exist? Where is it now? There's some questions for you!

I have Gordon's complete "Inferno" collection and Buchan's "Secret Songs of Silence" but I'd sure love to see Hugill's ms.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:41 PM

The Legman article from the JAFS - the one about Randolph - gives a fair summary of his attitudes, and raises some "probably justified" criticisms of a few identified "academicians" (to distinguish them from real scholars).

There is also a fair outline of "the history of ... folklore, with some citations of "what's worthwhile" and what is "overly analysed." I particularly liked his citation of one 300+ page book on a 40 line poem, as an example of "scholarly folklore," although I probably won't try to buy that book(!).

Note that some of Legman's work survives. It was only in the "news" page about recent participants in symposia that he was "erased," according to my look at it.

A note for those interested. Barnes & Noble (www.bn.com) finds only vol I if you search by "Randolph" but finds both volumes if you search by "Legman" - although they have the title incorrect on Vol II in any case. Vol I is still $60 and Vol II $50 (US).

John


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 06:08 PM

Abby...I personally know someone who claims to have recorded Hugill singing a bunch of these songs while drunk. This was done at Mystic a number of years ago...

He said he would let me hear the tape, but would not agree to dupe it...and I had not thought of this in quite awhile....nor have I ever actually heard it. I may just make some inquiries again....


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 02:06 AM

Slight thread drift here: I went off to my local library to see about inter-library loan of the AFS journal for the article about Randolph. They sent me to the State Historical Society across town, who turned out NOT to have it.

But, on stopping in their book store, for the first time in a year, I found Katie Lee's book "10,000 Goddam Cattle"!! Thanks for giving my Karma bus road directions!


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:12 AM

Bill D: :-) I've heard this story before. As I recall it was taped in a pub in England. (As well.) But it never seems to appear as tape or text. I'm beginning to think it may be part of the folklore of folklore....No dis to your friend.

Les: Well done - a very hard book to find. And an important one. I got mine direct from her (the address is on the back of the book - she published direct, I guess) but I had to kick & threaten & moan & plead for it - she only had a very few left.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Les B
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 02:42 PM

This version of Lee's "10,000 Goddam Cattle" seems to be a recent re-issue by the University of New Mexico. This is dumb, but was she a folkie in the '60's?? I don't remember her, although she implies she was playing of some kind of circuit, and mentions Travis Edmonston (sp?) of Bud & Travis.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 02:49 PM

Tam frae Saltcoats: I am 100% in favour of singing unprintable songs, as anyone who's been in a pub with me when I've had one two many can testify: I just meant keep them unprinted, and then the good old folk process of aural transmission can carry on uncomplicated by scholars, books, computers etc.Keep them naughty taboo and enjoyable.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 07:19 PM

Les B: I don't know much about her career but I believe the following: She has several records, some still availavle. I most associate her with Cisco Houston era since they were SO's for a while. She continued on but likely mostly in the southwest.

A rave from AMG: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll Katie Lee is a real cow girl. When she isn't singing by the camfire or in concert, she is running a ranch or guiding raft trips down the Colorado. Many years ago Katie was the darling of the New York crowd, singing outlandishly funny, and often bawdy uptown folk songs. Today she sings outlandishly bawdy, and often funny songs about the old west. She is so beautiful and has such a youthful approach to her performing -- and to life, that it is hard to believe it is the same Katy Lee on her earlier recordings. She is a gem! -- Don Stevens


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:21 AM

I've done a similar post under "bawdy songs" but this was the thread I was really intending to revive:

Just received the two volume Vance Randolph "Unprintable" collection: ROLL ME IN YOUR ARMS and BLOW THE CANDLE OUT via Bookfinder.com; I got the best price for two mint books from DoubleDiscount.com, $42 each plus shipping.

What joy! Finally two volumes of unexpurgated songs, many of which we've been forced to sing in the expurgated version for years because of the moral taste of song collectors, the academic world, or publishers. I may still choose to sing the expurgated versions, but it will now be a personal choice.

I understand from his introduction that the editor of Randolph's work, G. Legman, also has in his possession an uncensored manuscript of Stan Hugill's sea shamty collection, and that he is hoping to publish them next.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:35 AM

Damn! Legman died in 1999. Guess I should have reviewed this thread BEFORE posting.

Wonder what dusty shelf Stan Hugill's "Unprintable Sea Shanties" ended up on; I was at one of the late night Mystic SeaPort uncensored sea shanty sessions that Stan led.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:01 AM

...and I have checked with the guy who recorded that session with Hugill. He has his own copy, but since it is 'officially' owned by Mystic, he will not allow copies to be made. He renewed his offer to allow me to listen to it anytime.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM

Charley;
I saw that footnote, too! No evidence for it has yet turned up in all this time. Cray thinks it might be one of Legman's "exaggerations."   Still, it's plain unreasonable to hold that there is no legit collection anywhere of bawdy sea songs. Just gotta be one.


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Subject: Index: 'Unprintable Songs'- Roll Me In Your Arms
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:37 PM

OK, so here's the index of the first volume of Randolph/Legman's "Unprintable Ozark Folksongs and Folklore." It's called Roll Me In Your Arms, published by the University of Arkansas Press in 1992. I paid $19.95 for my one volume at Tower Records, back when Tower was in business. Charlie paid big bucks and got both volumes. Maybe he'll grace us with the index of the second volume. It makes sense to post the index of a significant songbook. That way, the song title will come up in a search, and people will know whom to ask for lyrics and such.
-Joe Offer-


1. Pretty Polly 33
1B The Snoring Maid 34
2. I Blowed Her with My Horn 40
3. The Bonny Black Hare 42
4. I Reckon You Know 44
4B Ho Green! 45
4C Green Grows the Hill-O 46
4D Formations of Nature 47
5. The Old Man Came Home (Our Goodman) 53
6. Boring for Oil 58
7. Blow the Candle Out 61
7B Blow the Candle Out (11) 63
8. The Old Sea Crab 66
9. The Night-Hawk 74
9B The Sailor-Girl's Lament 75
9C An Inch above Your Knee 76
10. The Sailor Boy (Rosemary Lane) 81
11. The Billy-Goat of Durbytown 89
12. The Little Ball of Yarn 97
12B The Little Ball of Yarn (II) 98
12C The Little Ball of Yarn (III) 99
13.I Went to the Drug Store 105
14. I Went Upstairs 108
15. I Went to the River (Swapping Song) 110
16. The Jolly Tinker 113
17. There Was an Old Woman 1/8
18. Old Moll Roe (Molly Monroe) 1/9
19. The Horny Crew (Three Old Whores) 121
20.The Amsterdam Maid (A-Roving) /24
21. My Tra-La-La-Lee 126
22. The Old Spencer Rifle 128
23. Baby, Take Your Leg Off Mine 130
23B Take a Whiff on Me (Rebecca) 131
24. I Ask that Gal 133
25. Bo-Wow and Bo-Wee /35
26. The Old Woman Pf-ff-t! 136
27. The One-Eyed Riley 137
28. My Pretty Little Miss (Seventeen) 140
29. The Bear Went over the Mountain /45
30, Two Ruby Red Lips 146
31. The Ring-Dang-Doo 147
31B The Rang-a-Tang-Too /48
32. All I Need 152
33. The Old Gray Mare (Whiffletree Song) 154
34. John Briney Linn (Tom Bolynn) /55
34B Brinzi O'Flynn 156
35. Old King Cole /58
36. I Ain't So Young /59
36B When I Was in My Prime /60
37. To Market, to Market 162
37B Tottingham Fair 163
38. Nelly Was a Milkmaid /69
39. Funky-Butt 173
39B The St. Louis Tickle(r) 175
40. The Schoolhouse Door (This Mornin') 177
41. Peckerwood a-Peckin' (Sweet Thing) 179
42. I Got a Gal in Berryvillc /8/
43. Pickle-Ass Creek /84
43B Head o' the Holler (Sowcoon Mountain) 184
44. The Rogue (Knaves Will Be Knaves) /87
45. My Father Was Hung (The Gypsy Maid) /91
46. I Wish I Was a Finger Ring 196
46B I Wish I Was a Finger Ring (II) 197
47. The Old ChishoLm Trail /99
47B That'll Do, Young Man 201
48. Mother, May I Go Out to Swim'? 206
49. Do Your Balls Hang Low? 207
50. A Soldier Rode (Trooper and Maid) 209
51. When I Was Young (The Battleship Maine) 213
52. Peter Murphy's Little Dog 214
53. Down on the Farm 2/6
53B Down on the Farm (Il) 2/7
53C The Handsome Young Farmer 2/9
53D There's Fun in the Country 222
54. Waltz Me Around Again (Limericks) 227
55. We Are the Kappas 229
56. A Soldier I Would Be 23/
56B Old Aunt Sis 231
57. I Saw Her Snatch 234
57B I Saw Her Snatch (II) 235
58. A Dark and Rolling Eye (The Fireship) 237
59. Fascinatin' Lady 240
60. The Lady in Red 243
61. Poor Lil (Opium Lil) 248
62. The House of the Rising Sun 250
63. The Runaway Train 254
64. The Foggy Dew 257
64B The Foggy Dew (II) 260
64C Eyes Like Sloes 264
65. The 'Taters They Grow Small 265
66. The Inches Song (Drive It Home) 268
67. Down in the Lehigh Valley 272
67B Down in the Lehigh Valley (II) 273
68. My Foot Is in the Stirrup 275
69. Jake and Julie (Ta-ra-ra-Boom-de-ay) 276
70. The Winnipeg Whore 278
71. The Long Peggin' Awl 280
72, I Asked My Mother 282
73. Cocky-Doodle Ass-Hole 284
74. Big Joe Clipler 286
75. Left Me with Child 289
76. Drinkin' Corn Whiskey 290
77. At the Cross 291
78. Jackie and Mossy 293
79. Baby Shit in Papa's Hand 296
80. She Keeps Her Boody Clean 297
81. She's a Grinder 298
82. Sweet Betsey from Pike 300
83. Nottingham Fair (Nottarnun Town) 302
84. The Three Butchers (We Hunted and We Hollered) 306
85. I'm Ruint Forever (Snapoo) 308
85B Snap-poo, Snap-peter 309
86. Molly, Oh Molly (The Beehive) 312
87. Yaller Gal, Yaller Gal (Green Corn) 313
88. School Days, School Days 3/6
89. Peezy-Weezy 318
90. Liza Ann 320
91. Miss Lucy 321
91B I Wish I Was in Alabam' 322
92. I Want to Be a Farmer 324
93. Bumblebee Cotton, Peckerwood Corn 325
94. The Wide Missouri (Shenandoah) 329
95. Haul Away, Joe! 33]
95B When I Was a Little Boy 332
96. The Red-Bird and the Crow 333
97. I Wouldn't Marry an Old Man 334
98. With That Old Thing a-Shaking 336
99. Uncle Bud, Uncle Bud 340
100. No Use to Rattle the Blind 342
101. The Fiddler's Bitch 246
102. The Preacher's Wife 348
102B The Bowl Is Yet to Fill 348
103. Bang Away, My Lulu 351
104. My Gal Ain't Got No Tail 356
105. Wings of Gold 357
106. Rinky Dinky Di-Lo 358
107. Mammy, What Is That? 361
108. Turn to Your Wives 363
109. The Girls around Here 364
110. Pennyroyal Tea 365
111. Old Aunt Kate 367
112. Shaggin' Away 369
113. Rub It Up, Shove It Up 371
114. Ashes to Ashes 373
115. Fire in the Whore-house 375
116. Of All the Beasts 376
117. With a Rag in Her Ass 378
117B The Twig So Tender 381
118. Old Granny Blair 383
119. One Little Nigger 385
120. The Old Cat 386
121. Kiss That Man's Ass 387
122. Roll Me Over in the Clover 389
123. Lizzie Brown 393
124. Big Fat Gals in Sandy Land 395
125. Black-Eyed Susan 397
126. The Hog-Eye Man 401
127. Cotton-Eye Joe 405
128. Cripple Creek 407
128B Cripple Creek (II) 407
129. Down on the Pichelo Farm 409
130. Sally Goodin 41]
131. Pop Goes the Weasel 413
132. Turkey in the Straw 416
132B Turkey in the Straw (II) 417
133. Higher Up the Cherry Tree 422
134. Buffalo Gals (Goin' to Come Out Tonight) 424
135. The Crow Fucked the Buzzard 426
136.Old Joe Clark 428
137. Old Dan Tucker 431
138. The Girl I Left Behind Me (Wayward Boy) 434
139. Sugar in My Coffee (Sugar in the Gourd) 441
140. The Wild Irishman (Old Irish Washerwoman) 443
141. In the White-Oak Timber 446
142. Uncle Joe 447
143. Dog Shit a Rye Straw 448
144. Ida Red 450
145. Sal's Got a Meat-Skin 452
146. Oh Lord, Gals! 453
147. Little Liza Jane 455
148. Hi Rio, Randy-O (Organ Grinder) 459
149. Shave 'Em Dry 461
150. Skinner on the Dock 466
151. Peggy Howatt 468
152. Casey Jones 471
153. Frankie and Johnny 477
154. Lydia Pinkham 485
155. The Dogs' Convention 490
156. The Spanish Patrillio 492
157. Cornbread When I'm Hungry 494
158. A Little Piece of Whang 496
159. I Fucked Sal 499
160. She Sprang Aloft 500
160B Christopher Columbo 502
161. The Bastard King of England 506
162. The Mountaineers 510
163. Mademoiselle from Armentières 513
164. Jingo Jang-Jingo 516
165. Captain Perkins' Troopers 518
165B The Foreskin Fusileers 520
166. Down in the Valley (Abelina) 523
167. The Hoochie-Koochie Dance 525
168. A Letter from Home 527
168B My Family Life (Dismal Shits) 529
169. In the Prison Cell I Sit 531
170. There'll be a Hot Time 532
171. Under the Garden Wall 535
172. The Keyhole in the Door 538
173. Tickle My Toe (I Touched Kind Betty) 545
174. Chippy on the Rooftop 552
175. Jingle-Berry Tea 555
175B Sheep-Shit Tea 556
176. This Mornin' 560
176B Walking Down Canal Street 561
177. Red As a Jaybird's Ass 564
178. Redwing 566
179. My Name Is Jim Taylor 571
180. Root, Hog or Die! 576


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:02 AM

My gracious, after reading the indices to the Randolph books I didn't realize that I knew so many "unprintable" songs (either completely or in bits). Whatever shall I do???????          8-)


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 10:45 AM

Joe, FWIW, here's a search result from The Ballad Index. I post just for reference until you have both volumes nice & neat. Might as well delete it then. I feel it must have big errors. These are main BI titles for which there is a R-L entry.

With some shopping, it's not too hard to get both volumes for about $25 each.

1          search All text    for "Randolph-Legman"
---------------------------------------------------

1 A-Rovin'
2 Afore Daylight
3 At Brighton
4 Bad Girl's Lament, The (St. James' Hospital; The Young Girl Cut Down in her Prime) [Laws Q26]
5 Ball of Yarn
6 Bang Away, Lulu (I)
7 Bang Away, Lulu (II)
8 Bastard King of England, The
9 Bawdy Alphabet, The
10 Blow the Candle Out [Laws P17]
11 Blow the Man Down
12 Bo-wow and Bo-wee
13 Boarding-School Maidens, The
14 Bonny Black Hare, The
15 Boring for Oil
16 Brian O'Lynn (Tom Boleyn)
17 Buffalo Gals
18 Bumblebee Cotton, Peckerwood Corn
19 Careless Love
20 Casey Jones (II)
21 Chamber Lye
22 Charlotte the Harlot (III)
23 Chisholm Trail (II), The
24 Christopher Columbo
25 Cobbler, The
26 Creeping and Crawling
27 Derby Ram, The
28 Dog's Convention, The
29 Down on the Farm
30 Drive It On
31 Eleventh Street Whores, The
32 Fiddler's Bitch, The
33 Fill, Bowl, Fill
34 Fire Ship, The
35 Foggy Dew, The (The Bugaboo) [Laws O3]
36 Footprints on the Dashboard
37 Four Nights Drunk [Child 274]
38 Four Old Whores
39 Frankie and Albert [Laws I3]
40 Frigging Fusileers, The
41 Gay Caballero, The
42 Gilderoy
43 Girl I Left Behind, The [Laws P1A/B]
44 Gonna Tie My Pecker to My Leg
45 Good Ship Venus, The
46 Haselbury Girl, The (The Maid of Tottenham, The Aylesbury Girl)
47 Hog-Eye Man, The
48 House of the Rising Sun, The
49 I Ask that Gal
50 I Wouldn't Marry an Old Man
51 In Kansas
52 Jackie and Mossy
53 Katie Morey [Laws N24]
54 Keyhole in the Door, The
55 Lehigh Valley, The
56 Life Presents a Dismal Picture
57 Little Piece of Whang, The
58 Little Red Train, The
59 Liza Ann
60 Lizzie Brown
61 Long Peggin' Awl, The
62 Lydia Pinkham
63 Mademoiselle from Armentieres
64 My Foot Is in the Stirrup
65 My Tra-La-La-Lee
66 Nelly the Milkmaid
67 No Balls at All
68 No Use to Rattle the Blind
69 Nottamun Town (Nottingham Fair)
70 O'Reilly's Daughter
71 Old Dan Tucker
72 Old Joe Clark
73 Old King Cole (I)
74 Old Man from Over the Sea, The
75 Old Spencer Rifle,The
76 Organ Grinder, The
77 Peggy Howatt
78 Peter Murphy's Little Dog
79 Pioneers, The
80 Please, Don't Burn Our Shithouse Down
81 Poor Lil
82 Red Wing (II)
83 Ring-Dang-Doo (I), The
84 Rinky Dinky Di-Lo
85 Rogue, The
86 Roll Me Over
87 Roll Your Leg Over
88 Root, Hog, or Die! (II)
89 Rosemary Lane [Laws K43]
90 Sea Crab, The
91 She Came Rollin' Down the Mountain
92 She Was Poor But She Was Honest (II)
93 Skinner on the Dock
94 Snapoo
95 Strawberry Roan, The [Laws B18]
96 Sweet Betsy from Pike [Laws B9]
97 Take a Whiff on Me
98 Teasing Songs
99 There'll Be a Hot Time (In the Old Town Tonight)
100 Three Jolly Huntsmen
101 Tickle My Toe
102 Till Cock Gets Higher
103 Tinker, The
104 Trooper and Maid [Child 299]
105 Trooper Watering His Nag, The
106 Under the Garden Wall
107 Walking Down Canal Street
108 Wayward Boy, The
109 We Go to College
110 Wee Wee Man, The [Child 38]
111 When I Was Young and in My Prime
112 When I Was Young (Don't Never Trust a Sailor)
113 Whorehouse Bells Were Ringing, The
114 Winnipeg Whore, The


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 11:10 AM

Note that "Folksongs Collected without Tunes" are contained not in volume I, but in volume II (Blow the Candle Out).

~Masato


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 10:51 PM

Joe - why you did you not put in the numbers? (Bill Gates will number them for you.) [OK, garg, just for you. -Joe Offer, May 2017]

Blow the Candle Out
Unprintable" Ozark Folksongs and Folklore VOLUME II
Folk Rhymes and Other Lore
Vance Randolph
Edited with and Introduction by G. Legman
The University of Arkansas Press
Fayettevill, 1992

Section A. Folksongs Collected without Tunes

181. The Lord Made the Sun 585
182. Peter and Ballyx 586
183. The Johnstown Girls 587
184. Sally MacWhorter 589
185. Afore Daylight 589
186. Sweet Evalino 591
186. Peckerwood 591
187. Jaybird Settin' on a Limb 592
188. My Little Organ Grinder 592
189. Katy Morey 594
190. Bridget O'Donahue 597
191. The Leg of the Duck 598
192. The Dominecker Rooster 598
193. Polecat Grease 600
194. The Eleventh Street Whores 600
195. The Whorehouse Bells 601
196. Till Cock Gets Higher 603
197. St. James Infirmary 604
198. Shortenin' Bread 608
199. Dan, the Lavatory Man 609
200. She Wouldn't and She Couldn't
201. Pretty Gal, Pretty Gal 611
202. The Foot-Long Jock 612
203. My Petticoat's Brown 613
204. Arkansas Is a Good Old Saw 613
205. The Gals in Arkansas 614
206. Moon Bird 614
207. Aunt Jemima 614
208. Yankee Doodle 615
209. The Alphabet Song 616
210. Grandpaw's Prick 621
211. Sucking Jenny and Fucking John 622
212. Willie, Oh Willie 623
213. Sweet Antoinette 624
214. On the Ouachi-taw 624
215. The Rich Senorita 625
216. Cock Upon a Pear Tree 626
217. Slow Masturbation 627
218. Pull Down Your Vest 627
219. After the Ball Is Over 628
220. The Bald-Headed Drummer 629
221. When My Flivver Is a Wreck 629
222. The Tattooed Lady 631
223. Little Mabel Tucker 632
224. My Gal's a Highborn Lady 633
225. Mama, Look at Sis 634
226. Matches, Matches! 634
227. Cut It Once 635
228. On Top of Old Susie 635
229. The Shade of the Old Apple Tree 636
230. Bluebird Shit 637
231. I Screwed an Old Woman 638
232. Her Hair Was Long 639
233. Sit on My Face 640
234. Violate Me in Vilet Time 641
235. Roll Your Leg Over 643
236. Careless Love 647
237. At Brighton 649
238. Strawberry Roan 652
239. The Bastard King of England (II) 655
240. The Boarding-School Maidens 658
241. John Harloson's Saltpeter 659
242. The Election is Over 662
243. The Frost Is on the Punkin 662

Section B. Vulgar Rhymes from the Ozarks

TO BE POSTED LATER

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 11:43 PM

Joe - please - put your best talents to use....isn't there a convenient way to bring EJ, and Abby, and Masato, with Charlie and all the other kindred souls into a convenient MC forum... away from the babel of the rabble.

The Mudcat was once a haven from the newsgroups - and now it is worse!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The old thinking was Max needs hits to sell the domain.... the old school is gone.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Mockingbird MacGillickutty
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:24 AM

Dear unprintable sources: Please give us a glimpse of "When I was in my prime" from the Ozark (?) text. To think that one of the most plaintive and chaste of all rejection songs should be remembered in its "unprintability" is just the thing to start a row amoung the church-going bards. Let me join the fun. Please : When I Was In My Prime. That naughty version.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:31 AM

I want to hear that one as well!!!


Everything on The Rugby Song Thread is unprintable thanks to Longbeach's half blind piano player!


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:35 AM

Mockingbird - that request falls within Joe Offers's teritory - it is listed as When I Was Young and in My Prime 49, 189; as lyric, 36, 64.

Have patience....given the pile of MC/BS it may close to year before the thread is resurrected and his "responcibility" rediscovered...like mine was tonight.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:40 AM

Abby - it is a true blessing to find you around on occasion.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I don't know wether to bless to curse the day you led me to this degenerate tribe.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:53 AM

Ha! I knew it was all Sales's fault!!! And he's got an evil twin to boot!!!!


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Subject: When I Was in my Prime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:25 AM

The digital Tradition has When I Was in my Prime, which is quite different from what you'll find in Randolph-Legman.

Randolph/Legman #36a

I AIN'T SO YOUNG

Oh, when I was young an' in my prime,
I sure did have me a hell of a time;
I used to sing an' dance with glee,
But I ain't so young as I used to be.

The pretty gals they set on the grass,
So I always grabbed 'em by the ass,
I took an' fucked 'em just for fun,
An' I ain't forgot the way it's done.

Hidey didey hoop-de-doo,
I sure would love to diddle you,
I'd like to sing an' dance with glee,
ButI ain't so young as fused to be.

I hugged an' kissed 'em just for fun,
An' I thickened up a many a one,
But some of 'em still got a kiss for me,
If I ain't as young as I used to be!


Click to play



Randolph/Legman #36B(a)

WHEN I WAS IN MY PRIME

When I was young an' in my prime,
I could get a piece of cock any time,
But now I'm old, my balls are cold,
I can't get a bit to save my soul.

(part of a minstrel show song)


#36B(b)
When I was young an' in my prime,
I could git a little bit 'most any time,
But now I'm old an' my cod's grown cold,
An' I couldn't git a bit to save my soul.

#36B(c)
When I was young an' in my prime,
I could fetch a kid 'most any time,
But now I'm old an' my balls got cold,
I couldn't git a hard-on to save my soul.

When I was young an' in my prime,
I could do pretty good 'most any time,
But now I'm old an' my balls got cold,
I'm nothin' but an old cuckold.


#36B(d)
When I was young and in my prime,
Sunk my axe deep 'most every time,
But now I'm old, and my heart's growin' cold,
And I can't swing a lick to save my soul.

There you have it.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 09:43 AM

gee whiz, it's not very singable is it???????? hahahahahaha


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:05 PM

hi Harpy. Why not singable? (I see you're kidding but am feeling slow today) I'm looking at vol II now and just too lazy to get vol I and verify that I'm making any sense... Legman certainly uses "Gal I Left Behind Me" and seems to suggest "Battleship of Maine" for this. (Yikes, it's only across the room to check but I haven't had Saturday brunch yet.) But have a look at Vulgar Rhymes #1, p.666 "When a Man Gets Old." Randolph did not collect the full epic just a few verses but it's the a remarkable match to "Eskimo Nell" and the same sentiment as above.

If you can get through Legman's manio-pedantic verbiage - especially in the footnotes - there's a great deral of interesting stuff there. Legman refers this back also to "Do your balls hang low." (This might also be of interest to the current 'Fakelore' thread.) Legman notes that in older men the testes hang lower and lower (due to the relaxation of the cremasters, if you really wanted to know); this is related to folk references in many stories, songs and even Shakespeare.

The folk notion is that the process of the cremaster muscle moving the testes up and down in normal life needed to keep the testicles warm to avoid sterility. This failure to keep them warm in old age is the reason (so these songs aver) that older men become sterile/non-virile.

Oh, no, says Legman. Absolute fakelore. The point of the cremaster movements is to keep them cool. Just below normal body heat. If it were to keep them warm it would be much easier (for Evolution) - and less painful from time to time - to just keep them inside the body cavity. Legman rejects the notion that low-hung balls are a signal of lessened virility. It should always be remembered, however, in any assessment of Legman (not in any way to demean his genius) that he was an extreme lecher and in very old age might still be describer as a randy old bugger. He might well have been referring to his own physiology.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:22 PM

While certainly a (mostly) secondary source, DigiTrad has a fair number of bawdy songs (278 of 'em last time I looked). Try a search for @bawdy


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 07:14 PM

@bawdy = 319 inc. variants, so grown a little since DG's count. There are a raft of others buried in threads. "Click to play" still down.

I have several lists of these bawdies, some I have and some I know where to find. Putting them all together for easy recovery would be a logical step, but time-consuming.

I recently came across a book called "Stag Lines," The Anthology of Virile Verse, 1940, edited by Maxwell Droke, Phoenix Press, NY. The songs and poems are not bawdy (Blue Velvet Band and Annie Breen are about as venturesome as it gets), but many of the old time songs and recitations that are sometimes hard to find are there. Mostly undocumented, however.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: boab d
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 08:11 PM

the best one i ever heard was when i was in the British army and it was called the
Tampax Factory and it goes a little some thing like this

You can tell by the smell that she isnae very well
when the end of the month comes around
You can tell by the taste that it isnt salmon paste
When the end of the month comes around

Singing aye aye ae tampax factory
sing out your orders loud and clear
we have large we have small we have familey size and all
when the end of the month comes around

you can tell by her moaning that she's passing haemaglobin
when the end of the month comes around
you can tell by the stench thats eminating fae her trench
when the end of the month comes around

repeat chorus

and so it goes on very crude but very very funny when your on a rugby tour in the army and all the lads are being lads
Cheers for the thread
Dylan


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: toadfrog
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 08:34 PM

Help! This one started me searching for the Ball at Kerry Muir , and not only can I not find it on Mudcat; it does not seem to be any where on the Web. It must be I have the spelling wrong; can anyone advise?


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 09:15 PM

Kerrimuir often does the trick. For example, in the DT: GATHERING OF THE CLANS (continued)


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 04:12 AM

Dylan - check out the Rugby thread for more of the same. Add yours there.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: emjay
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:57 AM

In this old thread I found some mention of Katie Lee. I heard her on a radio program (the Great Gildersleeve) in the early 1950s, and was entranced. Her voice was so wonderful! But I never heard any more of her for years and years, though I tried in those pre-internet days. Thgen just two or three years ago I heard her on NPR's Morning Edition. She sang a bit and the voice was the one I remembered. I found an email address for her through the NPR website, and thought I would be able to get some of her cds, but still haven't. I emailed her, and received a prompt and kind response. Does anyone know anything more about her and her music? She is good!


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,Strudelbag
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:48 AM

Katie Lee is the author of "Ten Thousand Goddamn Cattle" (1976) recently reprinted in paperback by one of the university presses, and presumably available through Amazon.com.

It's an indispensable discussion of cowboy songs, based on Lee's own experiences in the southwest. And it's a great read, too.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 04 - 09:28 PM

well I know one - in fact I wrote one or two, but I couldn't, I really couldn't. Its that thing where the room goes quiet and you realise you overstepped the mark - offended the broad minded, risked the foundations of a liberal democracy...
I remember one night I did a gig at Sutton Coldfield Young Farmers or Conservatives or something and there was this guy who was the first one to break the silence.....
Gutter entertainment! he pronounced
and you think yeh, well maybe!


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:53 PM

You can hear some of these gems at:
immortalia.com


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,austranglish@yahoo.com
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 07:16 AM

Does anyone know where to find the full unexpurgated lyrics for the Foggy Foggy Dew? The lyrics I am seeking are for the song that begins "When I was a bachelor I lived all alone; And worked at the weaver's trade..."

I would love to be able to perform the full thing, not just the squeaky clean bits.

Cheers
Austranglish


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: JWB
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 11:15 AM

Austranglish,

It's on page 26 of Ed Cray's anthology "The Erotic Muse". I don't have time to transcribe it for you right now, I'm afraid. It's not particularly dirty, actually. Cray's notes on the song read in part "This is one of the most beautiful of British love songs, delicately suggestive of the sexual, perhaps the most non-bawdy of the bawdy songs in this collection." There isn't a coarse word in the song, actually, and if there was a dirty version I think Cray would have it; he's not shy about printing all the true words to songs.

PM me if you'd like the lyrics -- I'll have time next week to type them for you.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 01:38 PM

The 2d ed. of Ed Cray moves it to page 62 and retitles. In 1st ed. it was just The Foggy Dew but in the 2d he remarks that he's now called it The Foggy, Foggy Dew to distinguish it from the "Irish lyric that travels under the name of the Foggy Dew." He gives references for the "Irish lyric" but no lyrics for comparison.

The tune Cray shows is in 3/4 time, and although it suggests the Burl Ives version (which I think was in 4/4?) it appears to be somewhat "modal." The lyrics don't look significantly different from performances I think I remember. A quick scan of the lyrics bombed out in OCR, so a retype will be needed - or a rescan; and like Jerry, I'll beg off for now, but maybe later.

John


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 04:58 PM

There are many, many versions of "Foggy Foggy Dew." The Irish song, however is about the Easter Rising and completely unrelated.

I've never seen anything approaching a bawdy version. There are basically two types, Comic and Love (ie tender, especially MacColl).

Little has to be changed to go from the one to the other in the text - just a few words make a huge difference.

'Bugaboo' versions "explain" what's happening and are usually trick songs - he more clearly sets up the situation to trick her into bed, it's not just a chance opportunity. (If you come across an old 'bugaboo' version, please let me know. The suggestion is that this is the root song and explains what is going on but collected versions seem much later than 'foggy dew' versions and may only be after-the-fact explanations.)

There is also a more PC older version where they more share responsibility & pleasure.

No reason there couldn't be a bawdy version out there - but it would be rare.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 05:20 PM

For a 17th century form, see this text posted some time ago by Bruce Olson: The Fright'ned Yorkshire Damosel, Or, Fear Dispears'd by Pleasure


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOGGY FOGGY DEW
From: Abby Sale
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 06:55 PM

Well, done, Malcolm. Trust Bruce - he nearly always had something. I missed that one. This is the format that Lloyd suggests (and seems to be in other versions) that the spirit is really a friend of Bachelor pretenting in order to scare Maid.

I guess this song is just at the lighter end of bawdy/erotic and that's it. Here's a text from immortalia.com, the great bawdy website. An unusual sad ending:

The Foggy Dew
Sung by Phil Hammond.

Recorded by Peter Kennedy in Morston, Norfolk, England, in 1952.

    O, I am a bachelor and I live atone,
    And I work in the weaver's trade.
    And the only, only thing that I ever done wrong
    Was courtin' a fair young maid.
    I courted her one summertime,
    And all the winter too.
    And the only, only thing that I never should 'ave done
    Was to save her from the foggy, foggy dew.

    I got that tired of living alone,
    I says to her one day,
    "I've a nice little crib in my old shack,
    Where you might safety lay.
    You'll be all right in the summertime,
    And in the winter, too,
    And you'll lay right warm and take no harm
    Away from the foggy, foggy dew."

    "I don't think much of this old shack,
    And I shall lonely be,
    With only that poor old Cyprus cat
    To keep me company.
    There's a cricket singing on the hearth
    And what can that thing do,
    If the night turn raw and the fire won't draw,
    To keep me from the foggy, foggy dew?"

    One night she come to my bedside,
    Time I lay fast asleep.
    She puts her head down on my bed,
    And she starts in to weep.
    She yelled and cried, she well nigh die,
    She say," What shall I do?"
    So I haul her into bed and I cover up her head,
    To save her from the foggy, foggy dew.

    Says I, "My dear, lay close to me,
    And wipe away them tears,"
    And I hauled her shift up over her head,
    And I wrapped it round her ears.
    We was all right in the wintertime,
    And in the summer, too.
    And I held her tight that livelong night
    To save her from the foggy, foggy dew.

    "Now, lay you still, you silly young fool,
    And don't you feel afraid,
    For if you want to work with me,
    You got to learn your trade."
    I learned her all that summertime,
    And all the winter, too.
    And truth to tell, she learned that well,
    She saved us from the foggy, foggy dew.

    One night I laid there, good as gold,
    And then she say to me,
    "I've got a pain without my back,
    Where no pain ought to be.
    We was all right in the summer time,
    And in the winter, too.
    But I've took some ill or a kind of chill,
    From laying in the foggy, foggy dew."

    One night she start to moan and cry.
    Says I, "What's up with you?"
    She say, "I never should 'ave been this way,
    If that hadn't 'ave been for you."
    I got my boots and trousers on,
    And I got my neighbour, too.
    But do what we would, we couldn't do no good,
    And she died in the foggy, foggy dew.

    So now I'm a bachelor, I live with my son,
    And we work at the weaver's trade.
    And every single time I look into his face,
    I see the eyes of that fair young maid.
    It reminds me of the summertime,
    And of the winter, too.
    And the many, many nights she laid in my arms,
    Just to save her from the foggy, foggy dew.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 07:10 PM

See also Folklore: Meaning of 'bugger-boo' which has pertinent references.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:35 AM

Roy Palmer printed a photo of the original broadside of "The Yorkshire Damosel" (one of the rare ones with the tune written out) in one of his many fine books (title escapes me) at least a dozen years ago.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:40 AM

The Sound of History, 1988.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:42 PM

Precisely.


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Subject: daniel in the lions den
From: GUEST,graham a
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:28 AM

i am trying to find the words to the above story. a lad at the local rugby club used to recite it many years ago.i can only remember short pieces of it, but thought the story very funny at the time.
   can anyone help?


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:35 AM

What story? This thread has several interesting bits in it.
G.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: GUEST,fuelair
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:06 PM

Re: University Presses, Legman, Randolph and Cray. Legman seems to have believed that Cray censored himself. I am of that opinion myself as he could have re-edited/repaired if he had chosen too.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs'
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 12:08 AM

At this year's National Folk Festival (Easter, in Canberra) Mudcatter Bodgie will be leading a singing session (evening of Good Friday) concentrating on songs such as those collected by Randolph and Legman.

Yours truly will be contributing some remembered from his youth.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 07:15 PM

I got an e-mail today from somebody who had thought he was the only Mudcatter who had a copy of Legman's The Horn Book (1964), but then found one other Mudcatter with the book. I've got one, and I'm betting that Dick Greenhaus and Q have copies. Sandy Paton probably had one. Anybody else?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 08:22 PM

I probably should count as half-a-one since my copy is (now) a PDF.

I did have a copy of his "Bibliography"1 that was published in the Journal of American Folklore, I think a little after the Hornbook, but my copy (scans of the few hundred pages) was on 3.5" floppies that were unreadable by the time I got started putting stuff on more permanent(?) media. I think(?) the biblio was after publication of the Horn Book, and his editing of Randolph - but at least a ocuple of years before his death (1999?).

Unfortunately my citation for the JAF article went away with the scans, and my local library (so far as I've found) doesn't want to work on getting an index to look it up again. (The library at the University of Washington - Seattle had a copy of the Journal for the year/quarter the biblio was published.)

1 That might be the bibliography that he complained "didn't exist" in the Horn Book? (He did say he might have to make one.)

John


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 10:51 PM

As a book collector, I have a problem.
Does anyone have an extra copy of volume 4 of Randolph's Ozark Folk Songs?


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 11:21 PM

Well, it ain't cheap, EBarnacle, but try this link for the 1980 paperback edition of Volume 4 of Ozark Folksongs.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Uke
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 11:52 PM

I've got a "Horn Book" too & the two Randolph/Legman collections.

Legman is incredibly erudite. I can't help feeling he was also a deeply angry person, though, probably about being overlooked by academia. He goes into rant mode a lot.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:05 AM

I am always sorry I never got to meet Legman, he appeared to be a fascinating man, though I did have a postal encounter with him at the time of his publishing the second volume of his 'The Rationale of the Dirty Joke' - No Laughing Matter.
We tried to buy a copy, but found it was virtually unobtainable in Britain (in the mid - 70s).
At the suggestion of MacColl and Seeger, we wrote to him and recieved a courteous reply with an address, telling us that he had contacted his London agent instructing him that if we should call, to let us have a copy.
We were given an address in one of the more seedy streets in Soho; when we called we found it to be situated right in the heart of the red-light district in a bookshop that dealt with bawdy, erotic and outright obscene publications - an unusual source for what I believe to be one of the great studies of bawdy amd erotic humour!
MacColl and Seeger were great friends with and admirers of him; they told me they one stayed with him in an old Knights Templar's palace somewwheer in Southern France (Valbonne?)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:35 AM

There were several books that Legman had in his personal collection that he indicated he was attempting to get published.

There were, according to my scant recollection, some indications of interest from a couple of publishers or other collectors, but a news(?) report not long after his death claimed that his widow "destroyed everything." (One can never be really sure about what anyone says about such material?)

I don't have any records (damned floppies!) but I remember having a small local wake.

John


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 05:41 AM

In reply to a question above; I have a copy of the Horn Book and also No Laughing Matter - The Rationale of the Dirty Joke.
Are they difficult to come by?

Hoot


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM

There was a poem I heard in a folk club in the 1960s - maybe recited by someone from the Nottingham Traditional Singers Club in the 1960s. It was about a knight trying to lay a woman he'd captured. But she was a virgin and he found the act impossible due to various physiological barriers. Eventually he used his sword to break down her 'resistance' to the benefit of both. The poem was actually hilariously funny - probably not PC today though - but then was a student at the time. Does anyone know of it. BTW it is not Jeremy Taylor's "Chastity Belt" which is similar but the details are wrong.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 07:05 AM

"Are they difficult to come by?"
Not sure - The Horn Book was fairly easy to come by 20 years ago - not seen it for a long time though.
Rationale came in 2 large volumes (hardbacks) - the first ('clean' dirty jokes) was published in paperback, but I never saw a copy of the second ('dirty' dirty jokes) in Britain in any form apart from the one we got.
The Limerick and The New Limerick was published in paperback and was endlessly plundered in smutty paperback form, incomplete and minus annotation, of course.
"There were several books...."
Two other Legman works to search out are a pamphlet entitled 'The Fake Revolt' (Breaking Point NY 1969) and 'Love and Death' A study in censorship (Hacker Arts Books NY 1963) - both well worth having.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 08:20 AM

re Gershon Legman - "He was personally responsible for the whole Western interest in origami - from his 1955 exhibit. " (Abby Sale, 05 Apr 02 above)

At first I thought "origami" might have been a mondegreen for "oragenitalism", as in "Oragenitalism: An Encyclopaedic Outline of Oral Technique in Genital Excitation" (Legman, Gershon [de La Glannege, Roger-Maxe])

One copy available via Bookfinder.com, £1605.73 inc postage if you're interested, from The Country Bookshop, Plainfield, Vermont:- "New York: Self Published, 1940. This is the very rare first edition which Legman probably self published. The bulk of the edition was purportedly seized by the government as pornographic. This copy has an inscription in Legman's distinctive handwriting, "for Alice / see p. 45" leading to a description of a woman who put sugar on her fulva in order to let flies tickle her. Slight soil on covers. . First Edition. Hard Cover. Very Good/No Dust Jacket. 8vo - over 7 3/4 " - 9 3/4 " tall."

But no, David Lister of the British Origami Society has this very full description of Legman's interest and influence in the field of paper-folding -

http://www.britishorigami.info/academic/lister/legman.php

Ross


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 08:28 AM

Directly a propos this thread, the University of Missouri Press is being closed due to budgetary issues.

When I just checked [Thanks, Joe, for the link.] Ozark Folk Songs is above $50 per volume.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:05 AM

The meticulous Yale Book of Quotations credits Legman with coining the phrase, "Make love, not war."

Back in the '70s, I sent Legman the text of "The Rover" that he prints as a forerunner of "The One-Eyed Riley." (I also helped him verify Mark Twain's verse about impotence.) Judith Legman could not have "destroyed" his folklore collection: she helped him collect it!

Somebody may be thinking of Sir Richard Burton's papers, allegedly destroyed by his wife back in the Victorian age.

Then there's the question what (if anything) may have happened to Stan Hugill's uncensored collection of shanties.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:13 AM

Jim Carroll,
There is another copy of the second series "dirty dirty jokes" in Britain. I have a hard back copy in England.
I would assume that there are several more and probably from the same source that I suspect your copy originated.

Hoot


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:46 AM

"There is another copy of the second series "dirty dirty jokes"
Pleased to hear it Hoot - as I said, we had to contact him direct and then pick it up from a dirty bookshop in Soho - good to know it's more freely available than it was when we got ours.
From what I've heard of him, he always struck me as a delightful eccentric.
We were told that at one time he had heard that there was going to be a shortage of cooking oil, so visitors to his Knights Templar's palace had to wind their way through stockpiled tins of the stuff to get in - couldn't swear to the truth of that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 12:22 PM

Jim,
Not that it is important but the copy I have I obtained about 25 plus years back from someone who I was led to believe got it through Ewan some years earlier?
So I don't know if it is more freely available.
I wonder if it will ever be available on kindle - whatever that is..

Hoot.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 01:55 PM

The hefty two-volume set by Randolph and Legman, "Roll Me in Your Arms" and "Blow the Candle Out" are always close at hand. Much information in addition to the Ozark songs and music. The first volume is getting expensive, but volume 2 is easily obtainable.

I don't have The Horn Book. Any source?


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 02:01 PM

I've found the best place for used books in the U.S. is bookfinder.com - click here for copies of The Horn Book, which don't seem overly expensive.

EBarnacle, I know that fourth volume of Randolph's Ozark Folksongs is not cheapo, but you know you're going to regret it if you don't get it....


-Joe, living a life of regret-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM

"kindle"
If it's not a method of lighting a fire, perhaps it should be.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 04:03 PM

Our copies of Roll Me In Your Arms and Blow the Candle Out were direct order from the publisher at the Univ of Arkansas, ca 2002. Recollection is that we waited for a few months until they did a reprint run, so we might have been the "next to last" order they were waiting for ... .

My copy of the Horn book was new, sometime after about 2003, but I don't recall whether we ordered it or it just "showed up" - possibly at Barnes.

The Horn Book shows the publisher as:

UNIVERSITY BOOKS INC.
NEW HYDE PARK, NEW YORK

First Printing February 1964
Second Printing January 1966
COPYRIGHT © 1964 BY G. LEGMAN
Library of Congress Catalog Number: 63-19743
Printed in the United States of America


Sometimes a publisher can run a few more copies if there's sufficient demand, and as long as they have the "setup" it's still part of the same "printing." It's often worthwhile to contact the publisher directly to at least ask if another run is likely, especially for something that's "not quite a best seller."

Book sellers of reasonable size can usually look up a book for you quite easily and can often give helpful clues about how to get one, even if they can't (or won't) order a particular one for you. Unfortunately, Barnes is about the only one of that kind left in my town, although they've been helpful a couple of times when they couldn't do much about actually getting something for us themselves.

John


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 09:33 PM

The old cat s--- in the shavings,
the old man thought it was raisins


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 01:28 PM

This thread was refreshed by Spam that I deleted, but it was nice to see the thread again. The Randolph-Legman books are real treasures. Volume 1 (Roll Me In Your Arms) is folksongs and music, and Volume 2 Blow the Candle Out) is rhymes and other lore. Both are great books, but I prefer the songs. As Abby points out, Volume 2 has the index, so you need both.
And it seems appropriately inappropriate to have a few dirty songs during Holy Week....

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Abby Sale
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 11:22 AM

Hmm. I didn't think of that. I'll have to look into it, Joe.

Of course I did sing "Week Before Easter" and there's "Lolly Toodum" for today (It was on a Easter Monday, in the spring time of the year, etc)

And at the mildest end of "inappropriate:"

       'Twas on last Easter Monday, the day appointed was,
        For me to go down in the broom to meet my bonny lass.
        How sweet and pleasant was the day I kept her company,
        She was low, low down in the broom awaiting there for me.

                "Low Down in the Broom" from Purslow, Frank, (1968),
                The Wanton Seed, EDFS, London


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 05:57 PM

OK, so you have Easter Monday out of the way. So, how 'bout doing Easter Tuesday and the rest of the days for a whole year? What a concept!
That would make me very Happy!

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Stewie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 10:56 AM

My copy of 'The Horn Book' is an English printing - Jonathan Cape 1970 (copyright Legman 1964).

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 21 May 17 - 06:38 PM

Today in a second-hand bookshop in Glasgow, Scotland I bought a copy of the 1982 one-volume edition of Randolph's 'Ozark Folksongs' - a copy signed '1982 G Legman - ex dono J McCulloch' and with several annotations and markings by Legman (and possibly other hands). I wonder how this copy, which apparently belonged to Gershon Legman at some point, ended up here in Scotland? I know from Tim Neat's biography of Hamish Henderson that Legman and Henderson had fairly extensive communications, about bawdy material in Scottish tradition in particular - but does anybody know who this 'J McCulloch' might be?


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 11:52 AM

I once wrote to Legman to find out where I could find a copy of his "Rationale of the Dirty Joke" vol 2, No Laughing Matter" - his "Dirty" Dirty Jokes"
He directed me to a seedy book company in Soho (London) which also stocked (and may have published) the "Rude Food" books
At the time, it was the only stockist who would handle it
Legman lived in a Knight Templar's Palace in Verbonne, in the South of France
It was once rumoured that there would be a shortage of cooking oil, so he filled his home with cans of it, just in case
Not many people know that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 May 17 - 12:40 PM

Folklorist Judith McCulloch, author of "In the pines : the melodic textual identity of an American lyric" (1975)?


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:03 AM

Thanks, Lighter - I think you're right. Looking more closely it actually reads 'J McCulloh', not 'McCulloch'... and the folklorist Judith's surname is/was actually McCulloh. Still I wonder how it ended up in a Scottish charity shop rather than a US thrift store...


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:03 AM

I can't remember her exact title but I believe Judith was head of the Southern Folk Life Centre in Memphis which is where I met her. I still have her card somewhere. I believe she then went on to work at the University of Illinois Press in the Music in American Life series.
I believe she passed away a few years back.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 May 17 - 11:43 AM

This exchange over the last few days, makes my "Best of Mudcat" list. I have a few songbooks myself that have interesting names written inside.
I got to Moe's Books in Berkeley, California, right after minor legend Barry Olivier unloaded a large supply of folksong books.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:11 PM

Great! Also, I was told by the bookseller when I bought my copy of Scott's 'Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border' in the town of Callander, Perthshire, that it came from the library of the late Naomi Mitchison - although I have no proof of that.


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Subject: RE: 'Unprintable Songs' (Randolph/Legman)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 17 - 01:20 AM

So, Gargoyle....

Back in 2003, you asked me to enter the song numbers for all the songs in the first volume of Randolph-Legman. But in the same message, you promised to post the index of the second volume - and you didn't complete the job.

So, in the interest of collaboration, isn't it time for you to get back to work?

Cheers!

-Joe-


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