HTML Stuff

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 06:43 PM

This thread is quite old, and contains several minor "errors" that resulted from our limited experience with HTM back in the dim past. It might be preferable to allow this one to fade and become another "historic relic" of the good(?) old days.

It should be noted that on the home page you can click on "FAQ" in the header and get a monitored and updated advice on using HTML. While not aggressively maintained, this link should give currently useful advice on HTML usages that work now.

There have been several "HTML Practice Threads" in the past, where embarrassing or obviously obsolete/defective "advices" were periodically "expunged." The only one remaining (that came up quickly with a superficial search) is named "HTML Practice Thread." The beginnings of this thread are only a little more recent than here, but the last 65 or so posts are 2012 or later, and possibly give more current advice. Only two posts in this thread (three with this one) are less than a couple of years obsolete.

From Offsite (global link):
HTML Practice Thread (http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=12759&messages=185)

From here (local link):
HTML Practice Thread (/thread.cfm?threadid=12759&messages=185)

Since the practice thread currently shows 185 posts, you might want to use:
HTML Practice Thread - first 50 posts
or HTML Practice Thread last 50 posts, recent first

Since the time when some of the earlier threads were needed, mudcat – and most other sites – have "improved(?)" their style sheets and interpreters to accommodate most significant variations in browsers and handling of "slightly deviant" HTML codes.

The "Preview" feature at mudcat makes it mostly redundant to actually post "experiments" that don't work as expected, since it will show you what your post would look like in your browser IF YOU ACTUALLY POSTED IT. If you post it, you'll still see only what it looks like in your browser; and others who use a different browser, and often a different OS, still may see something different than what you see.

An advantage of doing your experiments in a "Practice Thread" is that a few years hence your most boneheaded blunders may disappear – as quite a few of mine have done.

Trying out something new (to you, and sometimes to most of us) can help you to have a better feel for how HTML works. The next step, figuring out what you should do to contribute to mudcat sometimes is a little more difficult, since not everything you can do is always helpful.

John

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM

I often use paging to view 'moderately' long threads...maybe 100-250...especially if the thread has been refreshed and I know I only want part 3-4. Then, if the post # is something like 104, I use d for descending to load the most recent post on top...which lets me see quickly if I want to bother.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 01:13 PM

When you want to call someone's attention to another message in the same thread, a good way to do it is to construct a link like this:

<a href=#0000000>Click here</a>

Where "0000000" is the message number of the message you want them to see.

This kind of link executes faster because it doesn't make your browser reload the whole thread from Mudcat's server. That's unnecessary because the whole thread should already be in your computer's memory, so the browser repositions itself instantly to display the correct message.

For example, this link takes you to a message up above called "A Lesson on Line Breaks."

I constructed that link like this: <a href=#82435>this link</a>

This kind of link doesn't work—it doesn't go anywhere—if the required message is not in the thread you're currently looking at (or if you're looking at only a 50-message page of a very long thread, and the target message is in a different page.)

(Does anyone still use paging—I mean, other than people who post to those absurdly long BS threads? I assume paging was set up to help people with very slow internet connections. Does anyone still have a connection so slow that they are forced to use paging, even on music threads?)

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:30 PM

Hmmm. I know of ALT being used as a substitute for graphics in a link, but not alternate words being used as a substitute for words. Why would you want to do this?

example:

<a href="/threads.cfm"><img src=/graphics/!mudcat.gif alt="Blicky Words"></a>

results:

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM

arg. I'm trying, to make my blog more accessible to the visually impaired, to insert alt texts into my url (Which can be read by automatic screenreaders when pictures cannot). According to every instruction that I've read online, the code should follow this format:

< a href="URL.Addressh.ere" alt="text" > Blicky Words

... except without the spaces.

I try that, and hover my cursor over the link; the Link works fine, but I can never get the alt text to appear. What am I doing wrong?

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:31 AM

Que ?

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 12:59 PM

Hi, Taconicus-
We've tried to make the Mudcat HTML Guide PermaThread into a pretty good, basic guide to HTML. As the HTML Guide says, there are several HTML Practice threads where you can practice HTML to your heart's content. We'll clean out the garbage from those threads every once in a while, when we think of it.
You can practice HTML in any thread - but be aware that we reserve the right to delete anything that looks like a practice HTML message.
You can also practice HTML in any thread by using the "preview" function when you post a message with HTML in it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 12:17 PM

..and if I had put the "G" in, it would look like this:


This ^cis a sample ^Amlyric,

               

And^c here is the ^G next verse...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 12:13 PM

To easily show the HTML code, use the following little program.

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/shtmlc.html

To easily put chords into lyrics, use the 'sup' code:

               
This ^cis a sample ^Amlyric,
               
And^c here is the ^next verse...


which looks like this:(using the shtmlc program)


This ^cis a sample ^Amlyric,

               

And^c here is the ^next verse...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 11:50 AM

Hmmm, that didn't work, but this will

&_L_T_;   &_G_T_; without the _ separators to give -

<   >

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 11:47 AM

%gt; %lt;

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Taconicus
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 10:59 AM

If this is the correct place to post test messages, please put a link to it (as such) in a prominent place in "Help" or FAQ (if there is one already, I missed it.)

Assuming it is, the following is a test message, to see if I can use HTML and a monospaced font like Courier to post chords with lyrics.

     C           Am
  This is a sample lyric,
  C              G
  And here is the next verse...

I did a preview and it looks like this works, but I can't show how I did it because I don't know how to type HTML code without its being interpreted as a command (instead of being able to see it). Basically, I used the PRE command.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:38 PM

This is header 6

This is header 5

This is header 4

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:22 AM

Hi, Rowan -

Yeah, I finally did get it to work - but now that I have a start, I want to know MORE, MORE, MORE!!!

What else can I do with buttons, and how?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Rowan
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:12 AM

It worked on my Mac, Joe.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:05 AM

OK, so I want to get fancy and use the HTML <button> tag. I can do this, but I can't get it to work. I want to use it instead of a clickable link, but to do the same thing as a clickable link.

Here's what I want the button to link to:
http://www.wellspringwomen.org

And I want the label on the button to say Surprise!!!

How do I do that? It must be simple.

-Joe-

Surprise!!!

<button onclick="window.location='http://www.wellspringwomen.org'">Surprise!!!</button>

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: topical tom
Date: 17 May 08 - 04:25 PM

This should be emphasized

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: chrisgl
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:26 PM

Well done for cracking it yourself - by *far* the best way!

Me, I'm too new to know if there's templates around - I'd guess not tho'

I use a Windows clipboard extender program called Clipmate that allows on to save handy bits of code, I'd save the HTML code snippets into it if I was going to use them regularly.

chris :-)

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:07 PM

Thanks---Yes!! Actually I had figured it out---but I thank you. I assume that if one does this often there are templates that can be used so one does not have to constantly type in all those commands---thankfully I learned touch typing as a kid.

BH

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: chrisgl
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:04 PM

You _almost_ got it right :)

You have to tell the browser you want to make the FONT a particular colour. You just told it make COLOUR.

The correct syntax is:
<font color="red">This is in red</font>

which displays:
This is in red

Note the AMERICAN spelling of colour for the tag!!


Does that help?

chris :-)

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:58 PM

just one last try
BH

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:48 PM

PErhaps somoeone can tell me how one gets color---I realized that I wrote a command for bold and not italic.

BH

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:47 PM

this should be italic and this should be red

the first post did not seem to work

BH

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:45 PM

just trying to see if i inderstand how this works
Bill H

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:47 AM

Mr Happy

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 10:44 AM

Mr Happy

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mark Clark
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 08:57 PM

This thread has been continued at HTML Stuff II

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 11:06 AM

Michael, if you've been to the site and your computer has a record of it (in history files) the link will show you've been there. It doesn't matter if it was from this thread or somewhere else.

Marion, I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but if you want to use blank spaces to line things up, try using:
<pre> - (Type text here, but still use line breaks) - </pre>

Part of the table above could look like:

  PRIZE IS IN CUP 1 (1/3) 
  -----------------
  Choose 1(1/3), lift 2(1/2), change to 3(1/2): P=1/36,B
  Choose 1(1/3), lift 3(1/2), change to 2(1/2): P=1/36,B
  Choose 2(1/3), lift 3(1),   change to 1(1/2): P=1/18,A
  Choose 3(1/3), lift 2(1),   change to 1(1/2): P=1/18,A
  

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: MudGuard
Date: 20 May 00 - 06:10 PM

Jon, here I am.
Which fonts are installed depends on the kind of machine.
On Windows, I think you always get Times New Roman, Arial and Courier (NOT Courier New).
On Apples, Unix-Derivates and other machines I do not know.

Usually there are more fonts installed than the 3 mentioned above, but these three are guaranteed on a Win95, Win98, WinNT and Win2000 installation.

I usually try to avoid using the <font face=...> as people have their most-loved font as their default font. And if there is no specific reason to change it, I do not do it.
Sometimes you need an unproportional font, then I use the <tt> tag to tell the browser to use its default unproportional font, not a specific one.

If you want to use the <font face=...>, you should always give at least two fonts (comma separated), where the last one should be one of the 3 mentioned above. The browser will use the first one given which it can find on the system.

If you work with CSS style sheets, you can set the font-family to one of its default values (serif, sans-serif, cursive, fantasy und monospace) for which each browser should have a font (but you don't know which one a specific browser will use, e.g. it could use Courier, Courier New or some other unproportional font for monospace).
Of course you can also use a font name like Courier New with style sheets, but then you will once again have the same problem if the font is not installed on a user's machine.

So Joe, I would suggest to use a special color (combined with bold or a headline tag (h1,... h6)) for the Mudcat Classic Threads or as Jon suggests an image file.

MudGuard (who goes to bed now)

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 May 00 - 04:14 PM

Joe, I have no idea what font's are common to most computers but I would think that for the type of rint you are looking at, you are looking at a font that wouldn't be readily substituted by another similar looking font (I'm assuming these browsers do attempt font substitutions - Mudguard - where are you?) if it was not on a particular computer.

I am a believer in simplicity on these matters and would I probably just stick with using the standard HTML codes such as bold for effects.

I suppose another alternative would be to ask Max if he could knock up a .gif. I know linking to grahics is not allowed in the threads but this is a one off use in a one special purose thread and the presence of 1 extra small graphic would have no real impact on the download time of the thread.

Jon

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 May 00 - 02:02 PM

I was wondering what fonts I can use in HTML documents. I know if I use the command <font face=arial< that the font will be Arial until I close it off with </font>. I also know that the font will be displayed the way I want it only if that particular font is installed on the receiving person's computer.
So, my question is, what fonts are common on most computers, since those are the fonts I would want to use. My specific problem is that I want to create a suitable title for Mudcat Classic Threads in the FAQ. I'd love to be able to emulate the greenish "Mudcat Cafe" logo, but I don't think that's in a common font (Max has the logo as a gif)
Any suggestions for fonts I can use?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Cut-Paste-Copy & Keyboard Shortcuts
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 00 - 06:22 PM

Assuming you are using Windows 95 or 98 and Netscape or Microsoft Internet Explorer, here's what you do:

• highlight the section you want to copy - put your mouse cursor at the beginning of the section, and click and hold the left mouse button. Then, holding the button, move the cursor to the end of the section, and release your mouse button. All the text you've selected should have changed color, usually to blue.
• Next, copy the test - move your mouse cursor so it's ove the highlighted area, and click and hold your right mouse button. A menu will pop up, and you should select "copy" from the menu. The menu will disappear, and the information will be copied into your computer's memory (clipboard), and stay there until you copy something else.
• Finally, paste the information wherever you want to put it - into a Mudcat message box, a word processing document, or an e-mail message you're writing. To paste, move your mouse cursor to the place where you want to put the information. then, click on your right mouse button again and select "paste" from the menu. That should do the trick for you.

I often like to use keyboard shortcuts instead of using my mouse to find things from menus. Here are some handy shortcuts:

• CTRL-C - Copy
• CTRL-V - Paste
• CTRL-X - Cut
• CTRL-S - Save
• CTRL-N - Open New Browser Window
• CTRL-Z - Undo whatever you did last

Hope that helps.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 03:32 AM

That's a great example of guitar chords, Mark - but posting of embedded objects like sounds and images is prohibited here because it slows down thread loading too much. Better to provide a link to the Online Guitar Dictionary, like you did in another thread. Nice try, though.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 00 - 01:30 AM

Would this be a good way to share chord patterns in threads? Maybe there is a full library on the Web somewhere. If not, I have Adobe's Seville font for use with Finale.

(click)

It would sure be easier than using prose to describe the details of chord construction.

Thanks,

- Mark

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 08:35 PM

Well, Guest, you got one outa three. <small> works, but the other commands should be <big> and <b> - be sure to close the commands when you're done with them, like this: </small> (which you did properly).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 08:25 PM

Is this small?

Is this large?

Is this bold

Subject: How to put line breaks in Word
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 08:06 PM

Here's how to put line breaks in lyrics you type up in Microsoft Word. The process should be much the same in other word processors.

• Type the lyrics up and edit and spell-check and save them.
  
• Then, go to the "edit" menu at the top of your page, and choose "replace."
  
• Under "replace" you'll find a "special" designation for special characters. Choose "paragraph mark" and put that in the "find" box.
  
• Then, in the "replace with" box, put "paragraph mark" and <br> (a line break tag)
  
• Then choose "replace all."

This varies from one version of Word to another, but it's more-or-less the same in the various versions.

You want to replace the paragraph mark with another one PLUS the line break. Otherwise, you lose all your paragraph marks and what you see on your screen is hard to read, and hard to work with.

Remember, when you are posting lyrics, you want to have <br> line breaks in each and every line, including the blank lines between stanzas and in the paragraphs for any comments you might want to make along with the lyrics. Please do NOT use <p> paragraph marks, because paragraph marks often don't work correctly when you copy-and-paste lyrics from the Forum into a word processor.

When all the line breaks are just how you want them, highlight the whole thing in your word processor and copy it ( [CTRL-C] is the keyboard shortcut for copying) then paste [CTRL-V] it into the message box at Mudcat, and then hit the grey "submit message" button.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 02:36 AM

Yepp-er, Mr. Joe, you are saying that this makes the letter spacing work like old fashioned typewriter spacing, yes?

Si, señora.
-Josè-

Subject: Posting Chords
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 02:32 AM

Here's another little tidbit I prepared in answer to somebody's question:

Posting Chords

Anything you type after the preformat <pre> command turns out in monospaced type, so each letter or space takes up one full space - which means the alignment of one letter over another looks the same on Mudcat as it does in the message posting box. You still have to put in <br> line breaks after every line, however. When you get to the end of the entire passage that has chords, go back to normal typeface with the </pre> command. Normal type takes more space for the letter "m" than it does for the letter "i" - so it's well-nigh impossible to align normal type and keep the chord letters over the right words. The preformat command handles that quite well. Make sense?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 01:32 AM

Copied from a message I posted in the "Help" forum, in answer to a question about how to copy from an HTML editor and paste into a Mudcat message
In most HTML editors, there is an option in the menus on the top that allows you to "view source." Sometimes, you have to right-click on the page itself, and a menu will come up with a "view source" option. What comes up is a page with all the HTML tags visible (the tags are in those angle brackets that <look like this>). You highlight and copy that code with all the tags showing, and paste that into the Mudcat message reply box.
You have to be a bit careful with that, though - many HTML editors produce a lot of extra tags that aren't necessary, like setting <font> tags at the beginning and end of each line instead of the beginning and end of the whole passage that needs that font - all those extra tags slow down the loading of a Mudcat page considerably. they also often start out with <html> and <body> and <meta> and other tags that can mess up an entire thread.

My rule of thumb is: if you don't know what an HTML tag is going to do, it's best not to use it in a Mudcat message.

The best advice for HTML for use at Mudcat is in this thread (click). I stay away from HTML editors most of the time, and type my Mudcat stuff and even design Web pages in a plain old word processor. Takes a little more learning but it works a whole lot better, and you can do a lot with just a little knowledge. Just use the copy/paste and "replace" functions to take care of the repetitive tasks.
While I don't use an HTML editor much, I do cheat and copy the source of interesting effects I find on various Web pages. I save those little tricks in a text file, and paste 'em in when I need 'em.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 08 Feb 00 - 08:05 AM

If you use word 97 or above format everything as you want it in word, SAVE: as HTML, VIEW: html source, COPY: to clipboard then PASTE: into message box (here)

LIKE THIS

Then you do not have to learn any but the most basic HTML codes such as line breaks

regards Ted

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: MudGuard
Date: 26 Dec 99 - 02:12 PM

the <pre> and </pre> tag are used to enclose a part of the html source which has to keep its original line breaks, spaces...
MudGuard

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Dec 99 - 12:04 PM

So having put /PRE in brackets before this, all the formatting should pick up? "He asked no one in particular - just testing the system...."
Larry

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: thosp
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 10:58 PM

thanks Joe Offer---- i did the control c -- v ---- from your post --worked just fine ---- i'm going to try it from other sites to here and see what happens----- thanks again !!! thosp

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: thosp
Date: 28 Oct 99 - 10:55 PM

the text and then copy by using this key combination: CTRL-C (control and C at the same time. Then move your cursor to the 'Cat, and paste by doing CTRL-V. Does that work?

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Oct 99 - 04:12 AM

Thosp, I've noticed that copy and paste don't always work from the menus of browsers. Try highlighting the text and then copy by using this key combination: CTRL-C (control and C at the same time. Then move your cursor to the 'Cat, and paste by doing CTRL-V. Does that work?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Matthew B.
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:20 PM

Can I make this blink?

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: thosp
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 02:26 AM

nope i copied and put the cursor -- but it won't paste--- let me try again--- nope it just doesn't work --- i'm on AOL --- i highlight text go to edit hit copy --go to a thread -- hit the cursor in the reply box--go to edit hit paste --nothing happens --- but i can cut and paste elsewhere --- go figure ! ----------
thosp

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 02:10 AM

Hmmm. Dunno what your problem might be, thosp. You highlight the text, copy it, move your cursor into the Mudcat reply box, and paste it. HOWEVER, you have to add the line breaks at the end of each line of poetry or song lyrics. Otherwise, the 'Cat is set up to word-wrap stuff, and it comes out looking like a big blob of prose.
If you're copying from a Website that already has the line breaks and HTML formatting in, you can right-click on that page and choose "view source," and then copy the HTML-formatted stuff and paste it into the 'Cat. If you're still having problems, let me know and I'll talk you through it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: thosp
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:30 AM

hi Joe,
i just got back from your home page and now i think that on ocassion i should call you Lighthouse Joe----reguarding things like text files --- those are things i have to learn about --and databases and word processers etc. --- btw--- the other day i tried to cut and paste (a poem from an e-mail into the poem swap thread and it didn't work-- i tried it a couple of times --- do you have any idea why?
thanks thos

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 01:08 AM

Yeah, thosp, you can put BOTH <blink> and <marquee> commands around something. Netscape will blink it, and MSIE will marqeee it. That's what I did with my traveling "click me baby" link above. If you see something on a page that interests you, use your RIGHT mouse button and click on the page, and choose "view source" from the options that appear. Take a look at how the designer made the effect, or do it the lazy way and copy it onto a text file so you can copy and paste it into your own pages. If you right-click on pages on my website you'll see that I used the page formats MSN provided, but edited most of them so they'd look the way I wanted them to look.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: thosp
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 12:54 AM

hi Joe O
andthanksi'm a novice at this computer business, but i've been trying to learn on my own-through books and the html posts here-- it's slow go --but i'm enjoying it --- i hope to make some time and take some classes--hopefully soon--- i have IE5--if i commannd a blink-- will it show on a netscape or can the command only be made on a netscape ?-- and thanks again

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 11:27 PM

Hi, Thos -
The <blink> command only works with Netscape. It just flashes a passage (or whatever) off and on, and Web page designers generally consider it to be obnoxious.

The <marquee> command works only with Microsoft Internet Explorer (MSIE) It just moves words (or whatever) along the screen, and Web page designers generally consider it to be obnoxious. However, I find it's really fun for links:

Click Me, Baby!

See what I mean?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: thosp
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 10:41 PM

what's this blink stuff all about

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 99 - 04:36 AM

In another thread, Sandy Paton asked how to indent things in HTML. Here's my answer:

Well, Sandy, then you have to graduate into the wicked ampersand codes. They all begin with an ampersand and end with a semicolon. The one you want for indents is multiple non-breaking spaces, abbreviated NBSP. One non-breaking space looks like this:

&nbsp;

Got that? ampersand-nbsp-semicolon. Don't ask me how I get that to display - the code for that would drive you bonkers. A non-operating ampersand is &amp; - and it gets more complicated after that.
Note that the trick that keeps you from going crazy is that you highlight and copy [ctrl-c] the first code and paste [ctrl-v] it into place for the other spaces.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Banjer
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 07:55 PM

Thanks Andreas, I know none of us were born knowing what we do now, and it is even fun learning some of this new stuff!! One does reach a point in years however, when learning gets a little more difficult. Wish I could have started learning this computer stuff a little earlier! I think with the continued patience and kindness of folks like you and Joe Offer and others here at the Mudcat, those of us that want to learn eventually will! Thanks guys...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Tony Burns
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 07:22 AM

For those interested in more HTML how to stuff check out HTML Goodies

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: MudGuard
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 05:58 AM

Banjer, I wasn't born as an HTML expert, I started as a HTML dummy as well.

But I had a good teacher (a co-worker), a good resource (HTML How To [in German only]), and I looked at lots of HTML sources...
And of course the few years at university studying computer sciences and all the years since working as a software developper did help.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Banjer
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 04:37 AM

OK, so that is what happened in my July 4th post, which came out all red. I used /font (in < > brackets) only once which closed the larger header and returned me to normal type size, but Y guess I should have put two in a row to also turn off the color. One of these days this will all become clear to me....for now it is clear as Mud(cat) Thanks Joe, and Andreas for your continued patience with us HTML dummies...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 04:36 AM

Ok, Andreas, look at how I typed the section above. As you can see, each </font> command concelled the most recent remaining <font> coimmand. You know, Catspaw is going to give us a really hard time about talking about this obscure stuff. the guy's downright anti-intellectual. Keeps us honest, doesn't he?
Anyhow, here's how the previous message looked:

<font color=blue size=5>5
<font color=cyan size=4>4
<font color=green size=3>3
<font color=orange size=2>2
<font color=red size=1>1
1</font>2</font>3</font>4</font>5</font>

See what I mean?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: MudGuard
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 04:23 AM

That you need one </font> for each <font> is what I wanted to say when I said corresponding <font> tag.
Obviously this was not clear enough.
Ok, lets try it again:
Each </font> turns off all the effects of the last <font> for which no </font> has been given.

(now I hope all this shows up as planned - I don't have my usual editor around...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 03:45 AM

Well, it worked when I changed things, but not when I used a single command to shut off. I wonder what I have to do to shut it off.
5 4 3 2 1
12345
End of test.
Looks like you have to have one </font> command to countermand every <font xxx=XXX> command you enter.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 03:40 AM

OK, Andreas. I think you're onto something that can help us. I think you can change the color of a font or whatever, and keep changing it without using the </font> command until you want it completely back to normal. Let's see if that works.
<font color=blue size=5>
<font color=cyan size=4>
<font color=green size=3>
<font color=orange size=2>
<font color=red size=1>
End of test.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: MudGuard
Date: 09 Jul 99 - 02:14 AM

More precisely the </font> turns off all the settings of the corresponding <font ...> command.
Imagine something like this:

<font color=red>
        Some red words
        <font size=5>
                some big red words
        </font>
        some still red, but no longer big, words
</font>
From here on all is normal again.

this should appear as:

Some red words
some big red words
some still red, but no longer big, words
From here on all is normal again.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Banjer
Date: 04 Jul 99 - 07:44 AM

Need to try one more thing:This is REDand what folows should be black again. I went too the source code in the first message of this thread and copied exactly what I saw. There was a (/)font in brackets but nothing to shut off color Is that what it takes?

Hi, Banjer - the command to make red is <font color=red> or <font color=ff0000> (but I get confused with the numbers and prefer names). Shut it off wit </font>. Unnerstan' what I'm sayin????
-Joe Offer

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: MudGuard
Date: 22 Jun 99 - 02:17 AM

Ok, it takes a lot of &nbsp; to get a good indent (above, I used three), now lets try ten:
          Indented by ten space
Advantage of this method (compared to blockquote):
If you copy and paste, the indentation will be kept!

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: MudGuard
Date: 22 Jun 99 - 01:53 AM

You could use a number of blanks (&nbsp;)in front of the line,
   this should be indented
but this not.
Hope this works as I do not have my usual editor here...
Andreas

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 99 - 02:57 PM

OK, I know I can indent by using the <blockquote> and </blockquote> commands, but the trouble with blockquotes is that they also double-space before and after the block. Is there a command for just a simple indent?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Matthew B.
Date: 04 Jun 99 - 04:56 PM

Really?

Then that means that

this

should be indented

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jun 99 - 01:56 PM

Type in:

<blockquote> at the beginning of the indented text and </blockquote> at the end.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Matthew B.
Date: 04 Jun 99 - 01:21 PM

Is there an HTML way to indent?

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 10:20 PM

John, I apologize for poking fun at your entry, but for some reason the look of those 7th chords embedded in the lyrics really struck my funny bone. Actually, I need to analyze how you did the rest of that entry, because I haven't yet tried the html tricks for putting chords over lyrics. NOI!!

Mark

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 10:17 PM

Congratulations Joh7n, I thin7k you've ghot it.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 08:28 PM

G        C       Em            B7        D7

Ghen the Cake is Emten and the B7rds are D7ying

F         Am7           B               C   D        G

Fhen I'll Am7 you in my Breams, because Che Dime has Gome

W    t   r   r   r     c     b   b   b      a

When the red red robin comes bob bob bobbin along

W    T   R   R   R     C     B   B   B      A

When the red red robin comes bob bob bobbin along

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 99 - 02:01 PM

A Lesson on Line Breaks <br>

Somebody asked about line breaks in another thread, so maybe it's a good time for another lesson - as has been said above, the HTML line break is:

<br>

I realize that you can double-space between stanzas or paragraphs with one paragraph <p> mark, but I strongly encourage Mudcatteers to use two line breaks <br><br> instead. The paragraph marks make things look right here in the forum - however, if you post a song with the stanzas separated with paragraph marks and somebody tries to copy it and paste it into a word processor, the spaces between the stanzas disappear and the song gets jumbled together.

When you're posting in Mudcat, there are two shortcuts that will allow you to put in your line breaks and type the <br> line break tag only once: copy-and-paste, and the "replace" function of your word processor.
The easier shortcut to learn is copy-and-paste. You highlight whatever it is you want to copy (<br> in this case), copy it, and then paste it wherever you want it. All of those fancy HTML tags Dan Mulligan posted at the top of this thread can be copied and pasted into Mudcat Forum threads. Copy-and-paste has three steps:

Highlight the test you want to copy. Put your mouse at the beginning of the text, click and hold the mouse button, and move the mouse to the end of the text and then release the button. The selected text should change color. I prefer not to use the mouse, so I highlight by depressing the shift key and using arrows and other directional keys (home, end, page up, page down) to highlight. These keyboard shortcuts are usually faster than using the mouse.

Copy the text. With the mouse cursor on the highlighted text, push the right mouse button and select "copy" from the menu that pops up, or go to "edit" at the top of your browser and select "copy." The keyboard shortcut is really easy: CTRL-C (on a Mac, the CTRL key is the one with the symbol that looks kind of like a square daisy).

Paste the text where you want it. Put the mouse cursor where you want the text, push that right mouse button, and select "paste" from the menu that pops up (or go to "edit" and then "paste" at the top of your browser). The nifty keyboard shortcut is CTRL-V.

That's all there is to it. Highlight, copy, and then paste. This works in almost all Windows and Mac applications, so it's a very useful thing to learn. It's expecially helpful for copying those long Internet addresses (URLs) that you come across - just highlight the URL in the address bar of your browser, and copy and paste it wherever you want it.

The Replace method is a function of your word processor, and you have to adjust it to fit the particular quirks of your favorite word processor. I use Microsoft Word for typing lyrics, and it works very well. Once I have the lyrics typed and saved, I go to the Edit menu at the top of my screen, and select Replace. A box opens up, and I make sure my cursor is in the Find what space in that box. Then I go to Special at the bottom of the box and select Paragraph mark a carat and the letter p appear in the Find what space. Then I move my cursor to the Replace with space and go to Special and select another Paragraph mark. Then I put a line break symbol <br> in the Replace with space, and then I hit the Replace All button at the side of the box. Presto-changeo, a beautifully-formatted song appears on my screen, ready to be highlighted and copy-and-pasted into the Mudcat Forum.

All this is a lot easier to do than it is to explain. Experiment a bit, and you'll find it's pretty easy. If you goof up, a friendly Joe or Joe Clone will be there to help.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Lesley N.
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 10:10 PM

If it works on my pages but not yours it could be the way the DT server is set up. There's a page here that discusses the mime types that need to be set up on the server.

I've found lots of pages with suggestions - the trouble is none of them worked!!

Let's see - good news - isn't there a song that goes, "The Sun Will Come out Tomorrow..." That's the extent of my optimism when it comes to troubleshooting midi problems any more! I used to be pretty good at it - another skill passing into obsolescence...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 09:00 PM

Netscape WILL play midis on other sites..as in this one ...(Crescendo works fine!)...so there is something about how our database is linked/configured now..(does it have to be set up differently for IE and Netscape and we are giving IE the nod??!!) I will be seeing both Max & Dick G this weekend and perhaps will find out more...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 06:16 PM

Gee, Lesley, can't you give us any good news? The problem we have is not with background MIDI files. Our problem is that the MIDI file links in the database won't play MIDIs with Netscape any more. All Netscape will do is download the MIDI files, but yet Netscape users say they can click on the MIDIs at your site and play them.
Got some advice?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Lesley N.
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 08:27 AM

Embedding midis is one of those tags caught in the browser wars. Netscape and IE do not read the same tag and IE just changed the way it reads tags. When I changed the background music to the above code I had a hundred messages saying they could no longer hear music. When I changed it back I had a hundred messages saying their new version of IE had an echo of each midi - now some AOL people can't hear music at all...

The best explanation of tags for coding background music is a short page here.

No matter what code you use you're bound to get several messages a day (or week) from someone saying they can't hear music...

Subject: Sample clickable links
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 99 - 02:44 AM

<a href="http://www.mudcat.org">Click here</a>

<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">Click to e-mail</a>

I find it's best to open a new browser window [CTRL-N] and navigate your way to the site you want to link to. Highlight and copy [CTRL-C] the URL (address) of the site, and then go back to your Mudcat message and paste [CTRL-V] the URL into your link. Be sure to include the http:// in that URL. The quotation marks are standard procedure, but most links and HTML tags work just fine without quotation marks.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Rich and Dee (inactive)
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 11:20 AM

Hi Harald,

Coolness. Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a shot this evening.

This group is the best!

Rich

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Harald
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:57 AM

Rich & Dee,
If you do so, it will just load the midi after you click on the link. In your case you have to use the embed-mark. If you like to start your midi immediately after your page has been loaded, use the autostart option.
for example:

<embed src="breakfast.wav" autostart=true hidden=true></embed>

this should also work for midis.

Greetings, Harald

Please don't use embedded objects from other Websites here in the Mudcat Forum - it causes too many problems for too many people. Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Rich and Dee (inactive)
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 09:47 AM

Hi,

Wow, lot'sa great info here. I've been trying to embed midi files into one of my web pages. I've been treated the midi file as a link, so I'm just putting the midi file between A HREF and /A.

It ain't working. Is there a better way to include sound on a web page?

Thanks,

Rich

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 03:27 AM

Hmmm. DDW, I SWEAR I copy-and-pasted into a Mudcat reply box with my sister's dumpy Mac last November. I think I highlighted the text, used the Mac equivalent of CTRL-C to copy and CTRL-V to paste [the Mac CTRL key is the one with that squiggly symbol on it]. As I was doing it, I was cursing my sister for buying a Mac instead of paying me back the money I had lent her, but that's another story....
Now that I've insulted all the Mac users in the world, is there a nice Mac user who can give DDW correct advice?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: ddw in Windsor
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 01:04 AM

Joe
I'm typing this into the SUBMIT MESSAGE box straight to see if the line-break function works, but also to ask a question.

I just tried to cut and paste using Mac's Quark Copydesk as the place I composed, but when I clicked into the Msg Bx and tried to paste nothing happened.
Any idea what's wrong? Apart from the fact that I'm stuck with the Mac hardware....
thanx

ddw

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 02:18 PM

Good idea to bring this thread up again, Anonymous. Remember that I go through this particular thread every once in a while and delete test messages, so this thread is a very good place to practice. have fun!
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 04:31 PM

Banjer..it takes only a little to do most of what you need..you will be surprised how fast it comes! The only advice I have is to double check! If it ain't 'right', it don't work...I often 'paste' into saved templates so I don't have to type each bit...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Banjer
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 04:26 PM

With more use of HTML in the threads, things should become more interesting as well....Thanks to BillD for the HTML verification page info, I have bookmarked it and intend to try it out. Besides what I am learning about various songs, which is the primary reason for being here of course, I am learning so much about various aspects of computing that until recently were all a mystery to me. Thanks all!!!

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 02:36 PM

Wow, it woiks, it woiks!!!
Now I can post lyrics that are readable.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 02:34 PM

Practicing HTML

Baby steps
.
...
This is bold ...
These are italics ...
I'm weak at understanding what strong means
Is this blinking? blink
How big is "big" print ...
What about "small" print ,,,
Compared to this how does a _subscript look?
And a superscript ^superscript ?
I don't mean this strikeout

Size 1 heading

Size 2 heading

I hope this is in a separate area of threads and doesn't pop to the top of the main discussion forum.

---

Wow, it woiks, it woiks!!!
Now I can post lyrics that are readable.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 10:35 PM

a couple of other things-- here is a page with several HTML editors and viewers tricks I hadn't even though of!

then...there is this page ....an online OR offline way to 'validate' HTML you have written or have need to check!..(I entered Mudcat's home page, and it showed a whole list of 'errors'....*shrug*....I'm sure there are various levels of error, but this place seems to cover all the explanations...and it's free!

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: MudGuard
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 03:52 AM

I recommend for all Windows NT/95/98/... users to use the shareware editor textpad available at www.textpad.com.

If you open a file with a name ending with .htm (I keep a "test.htm" for the purpose of mudcat messages) you can type the accented characters as you are used to do - type the accent and then the letter - and textpad automatically converts them to their html equivalent. This works for accented characters like éáòû and so on and also for the German umlauts äöüÄÖÜß

It also offers the possibility to view the file in your browser, so you can check the result.

On the textpad web page there is also the possibility to download add-on clip libraries for many (if not all) html tags. You can, for example, simply select some of the text, then double click on the "Font - Bold"-Entry in the html tag list, and your selected text will be displayed bold.
The clip library also features a list of all the special characters to select from, which is useful for those characters it does not auto-convert, e.g. " or &
You can also create macros - I have one that adds <br> to the end of each line.

That makes it very easy to type your messages, add the formating (bold...), check whether the result looks as you want, re-edit if necessary, and when you are ready, you just select all the text, copy it and paste it into the mudcat message window.

Of course, this message was created that way!

Andreas

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 08:05 PM

Thanks, Joe! For those who need some help with HTML code there is a downloadable FREE program herewhich is unfussy, no bells and whistles but a good nudge in the right direction.
Jo

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 09:34 PM

Hi, Jo - I checked the source on the songs you posted, and it looks nice and clean. It didn't have a lot of extra HTML that you didn't need - that's the problem Teresa has with Outlook - too much extra garbage.
Impressive bit of typing you did there.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 05:37 PM

When I posted all those millions of lyrics to the Black Country thread (oh all right, 9) I copped out and used a HTML editor program with a preview button.... wrote the stuff myself but at least it looks like what it looks like when it eventually appears. Or write in Notepad or something, save as HTM and open it up with the browser to see if it's OK....copy and paste....Am I stating the obvious?
Jo

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 01:56 PM

One problem with the Outlook, though, Teresa - It puts way too much HTML into the document. I looked at the source for your message, and it's all full of HTML tags - a full set of tags for every line, when one set of tags would do for the whole message (except for the line breaks). I wonder if there's a cleaner solution.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 01:52 PM

Hurray! I knew you'd figure it out, Teresa. You may want to use a little larger font. I think the default on Outlook is 10, and 12 looks better here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 01:47 PM

O maligned computer feature,

Lurking like the shyest creature,

If you show your awesome force,

I'll be glad to view the source.

ÿ

Teresa

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 04:52 AM

Oh, yeah--when I had the source document open earlier, I could read the HTML. I can read it if I set the punctuation on my speech to all. No problem with that. Now the chalenge is to find that blanking menu choice for "view source" again. I have rich-text checked. Still can't find it. Think I'll sleep on it. Teresa

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 04:14 AM

Yeah, I was wondering what kind of limitations your fancy gadgetry had, Teresa. Sounds like it doesn't read HTML tags to you, eh? I was wondering if you got an audible or Braille output - sounds like it's audible, I guess. A sight-impaired woman in our office had equipment that would magnify a word so it was large enough to cover an entire monitor screen. It was awfully tedious for her to read some stuff, but she got her work done quite well. Sounds like your equipment is much more sophisticated than anything I've seen - but maybe not sophisticated enough to do HTML.
Don't worry about it - there's always somebody like me around with an "edit" button to fix formatting. Still and all, it's an interesting challenge to figure out how you can post HTML-formatted messages. There's gotta be a way.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 02:30 AM

Hmmm. I used the arrow keys with my speech and screen-reader, and each line scanned right when I checked. ...That was before I hit the submit button. I notice, too, that with others' posted lyrics my screen-reader puts more than one line of verse on the same relative window line. In any case, I have not a clue as to how it looks. I'll try to find that pesky source-code menu choice again. Ok, back to the drawing board, or punching bag, depending on what mood I'm in. Thanks for commandeering this thread, Joe. Teresa

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 02:19 AM

C'mon, Teresa! I have faith in you. After all, it was you that gave me the Outlook idea in the first place. You do have to have the "Rich Text" option clicked on the formatting menu, but I don't think "view source" will turn up unless you have the text set for RTF. The text that you paste into the Mudcat box must have the HTML tags visible. Go for it! If you post your practice stuff here, I'll delete them in a day or two.
Take a look at what I did in the Welcome to Mudcat (click) thread - I used your Outlook idea there, and it worked really well (well...I copied a bit of Max's work from the "create thread" page).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Teresa
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 02:11 AM

Ok, I'm ready to try my lazy cheater-method.The only thing is--the "view source" option on the context menu (when you right-click on the message in Outlook) is elusive. It's only showed up one time in ten for me, and I think I'm duplicating the same conditions, ... although I'm beginning to think not. I have formatted text checked in the format menu this time, which is something I've never done before, so I'll inflict some of my bad impromptu lyrics on y'all. Hahahaha! Here goes. ... (Oh, by the way, "view source" was elusive in this particular case, too) Ahem!

Got them formattin' blues When I'm postin' lyrics to a thread. Got them formattin' blues When I'm postin' to a thread. Dunno what else to say; Better quit while I'm ahead.

Yikes! Teresa

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 07:31 PM

Thanks Joe! Going to bed now zzzzz....
Jo

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 06:56 PM

Hi, Jo - the ’ diphthongs came from those fancy curly apostrophes and quotation marks - the ones that curl in toward the quotation, instead of going straight up and down. When the newest iteration of the 'Cat came online a couple of weeks ago, a lot of fancy characters people had entered were changed to something else. Unfortunately, it's a mistake that's very difficult to correct, so we'll have to live with mistakes in old messages. Those of us with "edit" buttons are correcting the most glaring problems as we see them. I guess we'd be safest using ampersand codes for all those fancy characters, but that gets to be a big task unless you use Teresa's Outlook idea.
The 'Cat still seems to be having problems digesting curled apostrophes. I get error messages when I paste the curly guys into a message.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 06:44 PM

Gosh that was quick. Silly me, should have worked that out (instead of shouting at the computer!). I've used that method for accents before. Another question - why do some people's apostrophes appear as Æ dipthongs? (ha! did it! I hope)
Jo

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 06:30 PM

Well, Jo, you can do it the hard way and display angle brackets by using the ampersand display codes which begin with an ampersand and end with a semicolon.
The left angle bracket < is typed like this: &lt;
The right angle bracket > is typed like this: &gt;

And, in case you wondered, the ampersand & is typed like this: &amp;
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 06:16 PM

Have a problem with ABCs. When trying to do the code to indicate a dotted note & a little one next to it, HTML thought it was an unrecognised tag. These <<< with any of the ones going the other way afterwards wouldn't work. Solved that one by altering the default note length, lengthening the note and adjusting the tempo, but is there another way? Jo

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 01:49 PM

Teresa came up with a novel, easy way to post HTML-formatted messages in the forum. She types and formats her messages in Rich Text Format (RTF) on Outlook Express (Outlook works, too - and so may many other e-mail programs or word processors that produce RTF).
Once the document is spell-checked and perfect in every way, right-click on the Outlook document and choose "view source" - a window will open that shows your document with all the HTML tags visible (HTML tags are those thingies enclosed in angle brackets). Highlight and then copy the whole shebang, with all the HTML tags, and then paste it into the "Reply to thread" box. Hit "submit message," and your masterpiece will appear in the Forum. I tried it, and even got a clickable link in the message I tried.
-Joe Offer-

Please note that I have commandeered this thread for use as a reference guide for posting forum messages - you'll find there's a link to it on our "links" page. Feel free to post practice messages or HTML information in this thread, but be forewarned that I will delete or edit anything posted in this thread that doesn't serve the purpose of providing a permanent guide for message posting.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 99 - 03:44 PM

A couple of things that came up in the "Help forum.

Note that you have to cancel most HTML commands with a slash when you want them to stop doing their work. Kind of reminds me of the "Sorcerer's Apprentice." Examples:

</a> (closing links)
</blockquote>
</h3>
</font>

Notice that last one. If you want to change font color to red, you would put

<font color=red>

But you close it with just </font>

If you're posting a link, yuou can link to any page you can find on the Internet, not just to home pages. Actually, that's usually the best way to do it - highlight the URL in the address bar of your browser when you're at the page you want to link to, and then Copy it [ctrl-c]. Then Paste it [ctrl-v} into the link you're posting at Mudcat. There is just one problem with linking to a subordinate page like that - if you link to a page that's only going to be up temporarily, you link will go dead when that page is taken off the Web. That's not a big problem, though, and I wouldn't worry about it in the forum. In the links section of Mudcat, however, it's probably better in many cases to link to home pages than to specific pages at a site.

One more helpful hint for people posting links - it helps if you work with more than one browser window open, so you cn be viewing more than one page at a time and copying from one to the other. Most browsers allow you to open a new browser window by hitting [ctrl-n] (or the Mac equivalent). You can also go to "New" on the file menu of your browser.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 99 - 12:01 AM

ok!! it works! I had never studied the trick of how to display HTML formulas with the angle brackets, etc., showing...but I found a program that converts my written HTML to the necessary characters automatically! It was written for those who need to prepare tutorials...like we see up there /|\
... |

if you want to look at this little freeware program, it is here

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 98 - 01:25 PM

Hi, Gargoyle - there are certain situations in links where quotes serve a purpose, but they are rarely needed. I recommend that people leave off the quotes because if you omit the second quotation marks and don't close the quotes within the link, you goof up the whole thread until I can get in there with my handy-dandy fixit button. Max has made it so most HTML mistakes don't affect subsequent messages, but the missing quotation marks still cause a problem. So, it's better to leave them out.
Same thing with the <p> mark for double-spacing between paragraphs or stanzas. It works, but if you copy stuff from the forum and paste into most word processors, the <p> leaves only a single space, and the stanzas get all squashed together. Better to use a double <br><br> mark.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: gargoyle
Date: 12 Dec 98 - 01:13 PM

Joe -

At the beginning of the thread an anchor is illustrated with quotes around the URL...ie<a href="http://www.mudcat.org">The Mudcat Cafe</a>

I have been using the quotes - are they not necessary?

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 98 - 02:46 AM

Maybe this will help with posting links:

<a href=http://www.mudcat.org>The Mudcat Cafe</a>

That red part is the part the reader sees, and it can be any phrase you want. The blue stuff, which is enclosed in angle brackets, is the actual command, and the URL you're linking to is what's in green - what's inside the angle brackets is invisible to the reader. Make sense?
Here's another example, this one a link for sending e-mail:

<a href=mailto:[e-mail]>The Digital Tradition</a>

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Dec 98 - 09:47 PM

Hi, Karen - you can type your responses right in the "Reply to Thread" box, or you can type them on a word processor and paste 'em in. The advantage of the word processor is that you can edit, spellcheck, and copy/paste more easily. Once you have your message picture-perfect, you can copy it from the word processor and paste it into the Mudcat reply box. I usually type plain old messages right into the reply box, and do lyrics in my word processor. However, if you want your posting to look right, however you do it, you MUST use HTML tags. The main one is the line break which looks like this:

<br>

I type that line break symbol once, then highlight and copy it, and paste it wherever I need it. Hope that helps. If it doesn't, let me know.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: karen k
Date: 06 Dec 98 - 09:07 PM

I've been trying to teach myself HTML for the last couple of months and I getting the hang of the basics. But I'm a little confused here. I'd be happy to post lyrics using HTML but do I do it in a text editor like Notepad and then cut and paste into the Reply to Thread form? I can't just type them right into the Mudcat form, right, or can I? Typing into a word processor like WORD seems to be kind of cumbersome unless I'm reading it wrong.

So, I guess what I'm asking is what is the best way to submit a reply to a thread prepared in HTML? Where do I write the reply in HTML?

I hope I'm asking this in a way that is not totally confusing. I think it's a simple question but I may not be asking it simply.

Hope someone can help. Thanks

karen

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Oct 98 - 05:02 PM

*grin*...well, it comes close enough for me! I can 'hear' close enough to figure out where the chord changes, as long as I know it does, and what it is....thos who want to play with the embedded HTML for fancy effects are welcome to do it..(I guess I'll get to learning the fancier tricks eventually)

(Pretty neat example, Joe...and well executed!!)

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 98 - 02:25 AM

Seed, your system works exactly the same in the various iterations of Windows, except that the "copy" command is ctrl-c and "paste" is ctrl-v.
Bert, I think Bill's superscript chord method would work pretty well in a long word. Let's try it:

^CSupercali^Cmaj7fragilistic^C6expi^C#dim7ali^G7docious

How's that?

It seems to work better if the lyrics are emphasized with the <big> command and the chords are shrunk with the <small> command. The word would then look like this in the "post message" box before you post it:


<big><font color=blue>^<small>C</small>Supercali^<small>Cmaj7</small>fragilistic

huff, huff, huff.....

^<small>C6</small>expi^{<small>C#dim7}</small>ali^<small>G7</small>docious</big></font>

That looks like it would be impossible to do, but the miracles of copy-and-paste make it pretty easy.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bert C
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 11:22 PM

Bill,

The superscript idea is kinda neat and it's immune to the vagaries of proportional text fonts, but whaddya do if the chord changes in the middle of a long word?

I've tried using <PRE>Preformatted Text</PRE>, but it somehow gets messed up in the submission process. Here's an example of a method I have used successfully:

~~~~~G~~~~~~~~~~~~~~C
When I was young, I used to wait....

The tildes are unobtrusive and unambiguous, and as long as you view it in a fixed-pitch font, it comes out right. It seems like finding the perfect way to display chords and text is akin to the Holy Grail to Mudcatters.

Bert C.
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 04:27 PM

yep...that sort of works, Seed...that first batch of HTML commands up ^ there has the SUP & SUB commands...if you enter the chord you want right at the end of the word with no breaks.(or, at the beginning, I guess) using the SUP command, it ought to be clear enough...right?^Gm

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 04:20 PM

Trying an experiment

Sing^D a song of sixpence^g7, pocket...

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Bert C
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 08:26 AM

Those of you who (like myself) are highly PO'ed by non-standard HTML and the incompatibilities between IE and NetScape (and other browsers) should visit the AnyBrowser website. Support them any way you can.

By the way, this site also has great links to a variety of HTML composition resources.

Bert C. http://pages.prodigy.com/bcfss/

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: BSeed
Date: 06 Oct 98 - 11:03 PM

I don't know if it works this way in windows, but for Mac users, the easiest way to write lyrics is to first type them normally, without taking time to do the HaTeMaiL stuff, i.e., hitting return at the end of each line, and twice between verses. Then, when you are done, type < br> without the space, select it (highlight it), hit command C, then at the end of each line hit command V and the < br> will appear automatically, and when you enter it, it will all be nicely formatted. But we still have gotta figure out how to put the chords above the lines, over the appropriate words. --seed

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 98 - 10:57 PM

Joe,

Thanks for bringing this back up. Mudcat started out as a place for me to get lyrics/chord help. Now look what it has turned into. HTML programming. Neat.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 05 Oct 98 - 10:51 PM

Maybe I could blame youthful exuberance, but in future I'll restrict myself to the use of br's at the end of each line. Thank you Joe - you're superb!

Regards
John

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 98 - 04:01 PM

A question about posting lyrics came up in another thread. I thought it might be a good idea to post my response in a thread that's more on topic. Here are a few pointers for posting messages:

1. Use header tags and large fonts very sparingly (h1, h2, h3, etc.) Using the <big> or <strong> commands should be enough to give emphasis to a title. The <small> command is quite nice for comments. Be sure to close off those commands with a slash at the end of the text you want emphasized, as in </small>.
2. Use line breaks <br> at the end of each line of lyrics, and double line breaks <br><br> at the end of a paragraph or verse. Try not to use the paragraph <p> command - people who copy the lyrics you’ve posted into word processors have trouble with HTML paragraph commands because many word processors read them as single line breaks and the verses get all mashed together.
3. If you're pasting text from a word processor into Mudcat, it's probably better to use single-spaced text. It's hard to predict how double-spaced text will appear in Mudcat. If you want to have double-spaced text in a Mudcat message, use double line breaks <br><br>, but do it sparingly. You can't get much double-spaced text on a laptop monitor, and some of your fellow Mudcatteers will hate you for filling up their laptop monitors with open space.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 98 - 02:45 PM

....and now that Andreas has taught me how to post this so everybody can see it the same way, let me once again reiterate that the most important code you can learn for use here is the line break code, which sets lyrics off in separate lines instead of all mushed together. It looks like this:

<br>

Type it in at the end (or beginning) of each line. Or, copy it once and paste it in every time you need it. Or, type your lyrics in a word processor, and search-and-replace. Search for paragreaph marks, and replace them with a paragraph mark and <br>
As Ross Perot might say, "It's that simple......"
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Aug 98 - 07:06 PM

Hello, everyone - I have a problem when I copy lyrics from the forum and paste them into Microsoft Word. If the verses have been separated by the HTML <p> paragraph mark, Word reads that as just a carriage return, and the space between the verses is lost. When I post lyrics myself, I put a single line break tag <br> at the end of each line, and a double one at the end of each paragraph, <br><br>.
I usually type up lyrics in a word processor, and I put a single carriage return at the end of each line and a double at the end of each verse, and then I just search for the carriage returns and replace them with a carriage return plus <br>, and everything comes out hunkey-dory. It would seem to me that putting in both the line breaks and the paragraph marks would be extra effort, but maybe I'm seeing things wrong?
So, how about it? Is there a reason for using the HTML paragraph mark, or would it be better if we all do the same and just use the line breaks, and double line breaks between verses?
Yeah, I know I should probably get a real word processor, like Wordstar or something, and stop contributing to Bill Gates' Quest for World Domination (but I like MS Word....).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 06 May 98 - 11:50 PM

When posted those images earlier I did not know about Max's request. And even so , I used them sparingly so that the pages don't load slowly. Max never complained about them, perhaps he is less concerned now that he has a faster server.

To anon: Stop punishing Bill Gates? How did we punish him? By making him the wealthiest man that ever lived? He has such a grasp on the OS market he can produce a shoddy operating system and we have no choice but to use it, because there is no viable alternative. I bet you voted for Reagan too.....

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 06 May 98 - 07:28 PM

Thanks Joe,
I'm new here and still learning but...Clickable links to graphics at other sites is the answer.
For the time being of course...sorry Max.

Frank McGrath

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 May 98 - 06:55 PM

Well, Frank, Max has asked us not to post images because it slows down the loading of threads. The graphics that have been posted are actually automatic-loading links to graphics from other Internet sites - so, when the thread loads, it has to load from both Mudcat and the other site. Graphics that are on the Mudcat Mother Machine would be a different matter, but Max has not set that up for us yet. Check here to see what we Mudcateers can do when we get carried away. Shortly after that, poor Max asked us to cease and desist.
Clickable links to graphics at other sites work very well here, though.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 06 May 98 - 06:44 PM

Mighty Stuff Lads!

But...what I really want to know is how to place graphics in Mudcat without wasting Trillions of Gigabytes on your server?

Dan Mulligan did it but I imagine if everyone started at that caper you would end up using thirty or forty times your current disk space. Plus, every thread containing graphics would take hours to load.

Could there be a special section, thread or a database allocated to graphics which could be cleaned out every two weeks or so?

Pictures are useful and even neccessary at times and it would be a great addition to the service you provide. I know I'm being a pain in the arse...but...I think a lot of Mudcatters would love to post maps, drawings of new badhran designs, LP covers and all sorts of useful stuff.

Sorry for raising issue but some other pain in the arse is going to raise the question sometime. I still have deepest respect for the great service we have now.

Frank McGrath

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From:
Date: 06 May 98 - 12:01 PM

I thought the following, which I said in another posting, might be of interest here:

HTML, in its page design aspects, is essentially the same as the system of markup codes that is used in the field of book publishing. We call first-level headings "h1," second-level ones "h2," etc. and similarly for all other design elements of a book.

This system was in use in book publishing long before it was used on the Internet!

Rodney Rawlings

Stop the Persecution of Bill Gates and Microsoft - Stop the Punishment of Success for Being Success

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Max
Date: 10 Apr 98 - 11:27 AM

Dan, I changed you html probably. I was tidying up. Hope i didn't ruin anything.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 10 Apr 98 - 12:41 AM

I don't nkow what happenned ,but earlier today when I viewed this letter it looked like this (and made much more sense.) But somehow the HTML that I used got changed. Oh well I am sure you got the idea by now Art.
Nice job with your explanation Max....I think you put it better than I did.

Art, HTML=Hypertext Markup Language. It tells your Browser (netscape, I. Explorer, etc.) what the page should look like and do. All web pages are created usining HTML commands. You can use html commands to create special effects like italics or to create live links in your postings to this forum. That is what the above list is, it is a list of html tags that you can use in your postings. Each tag comes in two parts, a prefix and a suffix.
example:

<STRONG>strong</STRONG>

<STRONG>=the prefix
</STRONG>= the suffix
using these tags before and after the word strong will make it look like this:
strong
If you wish to create a live link use this tag:
<A HREF="http://web address here"> click here!</A>

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Apr 98 - 09:12 PM

Thanks so much!Yesterday I was an infant crawling around the floor. Today I took a step. Tomorrow is the marathon. At least I'm in the race!

Do truly appreciate all your input---and your expertese---and your tolerance!

Art

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From:
Date: 09 Apr 98 - 02:59 AM

I join you in damning both Microsoft and Netscape, Max, but perhaps for different reasons.

I think the idea of HTML was that there would be a world-wide standard and that extensions wouldn't be made without the standards being changed accordingly. MS and NS seem to have moved the language to the corporate battlefield--each fighting to outdo the other with non-standard extensions. There are very few sites that can be visited with, for example a text browser nowadays. This is a disadvantage for people with slow connections--OK so they can fork out and improve their gear; but it also is a disadvantage for some people with handicaps who can use a text browser much more easily than a mouse--hot key driven one. There are some sites that are useless with a text browser because they depend so much upon these extensions.

Now for the warm friendly closing paragraph. I often hook up to mudcat with a text browser when I have a slow connection. I can't, of course, see pictures and I couldn't use the chat room, but the basic functionality is there. Thanks for that, Max

Murray

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Max
Date: 09 Apr 98 - 01:32 AM

HTML stands for HyperText Markup Language. Hypertext is the concept like web pages and help files. Certain words are "HOT" (blue and clickable) which means you can enter them for more depth should you choose. It adds an element, no, a dimension to information. The content/context is defined by the specific interests of the reader. There have been ongoing experiments in literature to integrate this technology, but I have seen little to stimulate the idea.

A Markup Language means that its actual functions and apearance are defined by an interpreter, namely your browser. You can think of this markup language (HTML) just like a word processor, but instead of highlighting the text and hitting the bold button or using the keystroke command, you manually code it by using a consistent system of normal characters to define the beginning and the end of what you want bold.

Lets say we want @ to mean the beginning of bold and a $ to be the end. You then program the browser to understand that the @ and the $ are the bold code. When the browser gets the page, it takes the @ and $ and interprets (translates) them, that is, shows you bold text instead of the @bold text$. You do this for each element of style that you would need to incorporate and make sure that every browser on the web knew all those symbols, and you have your own Web.

HTML was designed mainly for appearance. Before HTML we just had gopher and newsgroups which used ASCI text as their standard which didn't even let you change the size of the text let alone add images or control locations.

Java is the same principle but at a much higher level. It can do just about everything any other computer language can, like C or C++, but is interpreted by what they call a virtual machine (VM) which to most is their browser.

Why do this? It is essentially an industry standard that all agree on to get things done. If Netscape and Microsoft (the bastards) had (very) different markup languages, we web page builders would have to make sure to make 2 different websites (which we end up doing anyway cause Microsoft won't cooperate) so that users of each can take part in the Mudcat. Not to mention Macs vs. PC's and Unix, and variations of each, and each different browser available for each. What a nightmare. The current number of variations and combinations of operating systems and browsers are well over 100.

Java is a program language that runs on any kind of machine that has a VM. The success of Java is its massive compatability. Programmers and companies love it because it saves time, money and effort, and buyers love it because it doesn't matter if you have a Mac or a PC or unix or any browser...

Gosh, I sure do ramble on. Crash course on my world.

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 09 Apr 98 - 12:59 AM

Art, HTML=Hypertext Markup Language. It tells your Browser (netscape, I. Explorer, etc.) what the page should look like and do. All web pages are created usining HTML commands. You can use html commands to create special effects like italics or to create live links in your postings to this forum. That is what the above list is, it is a list of html tags that you can use in your postings. Each tag comes in two parts, a prefix and a suffix.
example:

strong

=the prefix
= the suffix< using these tags before and after the word strong will make it look like this:
strong
If you wish to create a live link use this tag:
click here!

If you wish to see what the html looks like click on "view" at the top of your browser, then "document source" ,assuming that you are using Netscape. (If you are using Internet explorer, get Netscape and get rid of that crummy Microsoft software.)
I hope this helps you out.
Dan

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Apr 98 - 11:36 PM

Strange, now I can see how very much stuff I don't know having just touched my first computer in 1/98. I know how to read E-mail & find Mudcat & look at some other sites. But what does HTML mean or stand for anyhow??? Everything in the beginning posting to this thread might as well be an unknown language from a planet in another galaxy!

Aint proud of my ignorance--but not embarrassed either; just new to this brave new technography!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: HTML Stuff
From: T.Mutha
Date: 08 Apr 98 - 11:19 PM

Cool Dan!

Thanks.
I like your little logo too!

Subject: Dan Mulligan's HTML Guide
From: Dan Mulligan
Date: 06 Apr 98 - 07:02 PM

There seem to be a lot of HTML questions being asked these days, so I thought I would try to help out.
Here is a list of html tags. The word in the center is an example of what the tag does.
Each tag begins with < (left angle bracket) and ends with > (right angle bracket).
Style Tags modify the way your text looks. NOTE: In general, all HTML commands will take the form:
<COMMAND> text </COMMAND>.

• <B>bold</B>
• <I>italics</I>
• <STRONG>strong</STRONG>
• <BLINK>blink</BLINK>
• <CODE>code</CODE>
• <EM>emphasize</EM>
• <ADDRESS>
  address
  </ADDRESS>
• <CITE>citation</CITE>
• <SAMP>sample</SAMP>
• <KBD>keyboard entry</KBD>
• <TT>teletype</TT>
• <BIG>big print</BIG>
• <SMALL>small print</SMALL>
• <SUB>_subscript</SUB>
• <SUP>^superscript</SUP>
• <STRIKE>strikeout</STRIKE>
• <PRE>

  preformatted text

  </PRE>

Heading Tags are very similar to style tags. Headings come in six sizes, 1-6. 1 is the largest. 6 is smallest. The heading tag also includes an implicit <BR> at the beginning and end. The format for the heading tags is <H#> with # being a number 1-6, and they look like this:

<H1>

This is a size 1 heading

</H1>

<H2>

This is a size 2 heading

</H2>

<H5>

This is a size 5 heading

LINKS

Links come in three basic varieties: links to other files, links to the same file and links to pictures.
To link to another file on another server, use
<A HREF="http://server/path/filename.html"> anchor text </A>. This is called absolute linking. The tag is called an anchor.

Example: <A HREF="http://www.disney.com"> The Walt Disney Home Page </A>

To link to another file on the same server, use <A HREF="path/filename.html"> anchor text </A>. That is called relative linking.

Example: <A HREF="../auction/Auction.html"> The Auction Block</A>