BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?

Subject: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 02:16 AM

As an optimistic (naive?) American supporter of (a) the Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement and also (b) an eventually-democratically-united Ireland, this developing story is quite disturbing to me. (Not that any optimist should be surprised to read disturbing stories, these days.) What do interested Mudcatters think?

Saturday April 20 BBC story pasted in full below.

If desired, for further info and background,
Click here {previous BBC story links in right-hand column of page); and

Click here (Irish Times Sunday April 21 story; different perspective; writer presumes reader's prior familiarity with the facts)


Saturday, 20 April, 2002, 16:44 GMT 17:44 UK
IRA warned over security breach

If the IRA was responsible for last month's break-in at the Castlereagh police complex it will be viewed as a breach of its ceasefire, the Ulster Unionist leader has warned.

However, David Trimble said his party would not impose sanctions on Sinn Fein until it had gathered more information on recent events - including the seizure of IRA intelligence files containing the names of senior Conservative politicians and British army bases.

The files were discovered during raids by police investigating the theft of sensitive security force documents from Special Branch offices at Castlereagh.

Mr Trimble said a measured assessment of events was needed to be made before the Ulster Unionists would consider sanctions against Sinn Fein.

"We are certainly at what might become a defining moment in the peace process," he said.

"What we need to hear from the police is precisely what is it about what they found that they regard as being sinister and what does it point towards.

"We need to operate on a basis of clarity not rumour."

The Northern Ireland first minister said he wanted to hear from the government about its own investigation into the security breach at Castlereagh.

"If it is the case that the IRA was responsible for the raid on Castlereagh, then they have broken their ceasefire and the Secretary of State John Reid must act," he said.

The Ulster Unionist Party ruling executive agreed a motion on Friday evening pledging "further action" on the find.

The party's assembly members met on Saturday to discuss the matter.

Ulster Unionist MP Jeffrey Donaldson said: "The IRA cannot have it both ways.

"If they think the Ulster Unionist Party is going to sit back and ignore their activities they can think again."

Security sources have told the BBC they believe the files show that the IRA had been involved in gathering intelligence on the people named in the past few weeks.


It is understood none of the Special Branch files stolen from Castlereagh were found in the raids in republican areas.

But the police have maintained that IRA involvement in the security breach at Castlereagh is one of the main lines of inquiry they are pursuing.

Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams said there were "sustained efforts to create an entirely contrived crisis in the peace process".

Speaking in Tralee in the Republic of Ireland on Saturday, he said the British and Irish governments needed to be circumspect about their response "to the current flurry of media speculation".

"The chief culprits in the present controversy are the failed and faceless manipulators in the Special Branch and British Intelligence services," he said.

Acting chief constable Colin Cramphorn said he had no information to suggest that the IRA intended to resume violence.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 04:21 AM

Jack Spratt would eat no fat, his wife would eat no lean, And so between the two of them, they licked the platter clean.
It means what you want it to mean. Truth or lies have nothing to do with it.
Truth is the first casualty of war, and politics.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 05:18 AM

Trimble's logic is as ever brilliant. The IRA have broken the ceasefire by breaking into a barrracks. The UVF and the UDA hurl blast bombs but have not broken the ceasefire because they were throwing them at each other!!!

If the IRA had not continued intelligence gathering I would have been surprised. In the same way I would have been surprised if the security forces did not do likewise.

Trimble needs a crisis on a regular basis so he can show his followers he is still anti-IRA & Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams and Marin McGuinness need stories like this to show their people that they're not totally comfortable in bed with Trimble & London.

I think it's called Politics.....

Davebhoy

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:04 AM

well...I'd consider the sources here.

As for who's lying! it's more a question of 'who ISN'T'.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: paddymac
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:16 AM

The first story I read on this puff of smoke noted that the information was mostly in the public domain, and that there was no clear evidence that there was anything illegal about it. I believe it is just another phase in the Brit/NI govts' spin campaign to "manage" the facts of the Castlereagh event on St. Patrick's Day, where three men just walked into the supposedly most secure barracks in Europe, went directly to "room 220" (which had been physically relocated a few days previously), and walked out with top-secret files, far more detailed than the "public domain" materials now "discovered" on a computer taken from somebody's home. I doubt anyone but an ardent loyalist/unionist buys into it at any rational level, but even bald-faced lies develop a patina of respectibility if repeated often enough.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:09 AM

If I may contribute, the person who said a lot of the material was in the public domain was quite correct. Also, what I find interesting is the wording, those listening closely to the news here would have noticed the material discovered in various republican homes are not connected to the missing files. Also, it's laughable for the First Minister of the NI assembly to expect us to believe it's some shocking new development that the IRA have an intelligence division. Many people in the North from both communities could point you towards the locale of 'secret' bases. Next up, some more laptops left ready to be collected one presumes, the whole thing is reminscent of Michael Collin's intelligence gathering tactics of just walking in like you belong there. The real terror here is the notion of course of Sinn Fein picking up some extra TDs down south in the forthcoming Irish elections. Considering the shaky nature of the govts. down there, which are coalitions on a regular basis they wouldn't need all that many seats to be more influential than one would think.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:20 AM

I don't about the lying aspect, but what I found striking was that "IRA intelligence files containing the names of senior Conservative politicians" were found.

If anyone in the rest of the world is unaware of it, the Conservatives are not in Government (and have many fewer members in Parliament than Labour), were not in Government during the last session and there are many people feel they do not stand a chance of forming the next government - though that is of course a matter of opinion.

Is that who you would choose to target?

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:21 PM

The IRA are now saying that the ceasefire is still intact.

I just wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: sledge
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:40 PM

But the IRA are keeping pretty damn quiet about thier reported purchases of shiney new Russian made rifles, but then I suppose they need something to replace the collection of antiques they've surrendered so far.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:43 PM

Two questions here.

The first is, was it the IRA who walked into Castlereigh and took the files. Anything's possible, but it doesn't seem too likely on the face of it. On the other hand, it would be very convenient for some people if the blame could be paid there, for example because that would take the heat of the other suspects inside the British intelligence structure.

The other question is whether there is basic information about British politicians in IRA files. I think that is about as likely as the suggestion that there might be information about IRA activists in official British files. It'd be extraordinary in either case if there weren't.

In any case neither of these things amount to a breach of the ceasefire.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 01:32 PM

Actually with regards to the IRA purchasing new weapons, one laughable comment made by the media was the reference to, "their vast arsenal". Er yes, I mean give me 650 Kalshanikovs, a couple of dozen Armalites, assorted handguns and some medium and light machine guns plus odd bits and bobs and I'll storm the country of your choice for you tomorrow. So long as that country is say, oh Lichtenstein say or the Vactican State. No one ever mentions the 100,000 plus weapons still believed to be privately owned by loyalists and never handed in at any point.

Marcus

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: sledge
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 02:18 PM

Interesting figures, you mean to say that someone outside of either gang of murders really know exactly how many weapons are in their possesion.

The IRA may not be ready storm anybodies country that is not their aim, murder and mayhem is, how many weapons do you need to shoot few people on their doorstep. And how many ounces of semtex do you need to set off a fertilizer based bomb, not very much.

And if both sides are supporting the peace process why the buying spree. Siobhan Browne, who was jailed for buying guns for the IRA in Florida in 1998, said last year that the terrorists were "gearing up for a bloodbath, an ethnic cleansing". She said the Good Friday Agreement was a "sham" and that "the IRA will never give up their guns".

Hardly gives you hope that things are going well.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:33 PM

Be Jaysus these politics are Byzantine. The thought that this business pertains in part to the Republic election, rings true. I recall (correct please if wrong) that Sinn Fein now holds one, count it, one, seat in the Dail Eireann but looks to pick up a couple more, in Dublin and possibly in North Kerry (where there's been much controversy about the candidate, a proclaimed former [?]IRA man and gunrunner).

No doubt both, or rather all, sides maintain "intelligence". (Now why does that usage remind me of the "Oxymorons" thread?)

As to the weaponry: where stands the Decommissioning?? Any further or recent reports from Gen. deChastellain's supervising commission? I've lost track. (Have *they*??)

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:47 PM

I am living in what is regarded as one of the most active areas of the north and since the IRA ceasefire we have been living in comparitive peace.

The only blot on the landscape has been the murders by the various factions calling themselves Loyalists.

If The Pooka cannot see the British propaganda machine at work too bad, the Dublin-Monaghan bombings are a case in point. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 04:10 PM

Ard Mhacha, yes The Pooka can see. Albeit from Far Americay, The Pooka is a republican. But a moral-force republican, if you will---physical force's time having come, and gone. Bullets then; ballots now; ballots again tomorrow. And tomorrow and tomorrow. Creeps in this petty pace to One Ireland by 2016, perhaps---McGuinness's prophecy. / But are McGuinness, and Paisley, now elected by the ballot, truly relegating the bullet to the past? I hope so. I want to believe.

Of course there is Brit propaganda. And, there is plenty of other propaganda. I'm trying to sort it all out in my mind. You folks are helping me, and I thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:33 PM

Of Course as a cynic - and one who has been "near missed" by an IRA bomb (Cannon St 1980), I wonder.

Yes I think it is very feasable that the IRA are still keeping files on potential 'Targets' - By the same token I would think it completetly irresponsible if the British Army, and the Gardai were not doing the same.

A further question in my mind is why the Provo's would bother marking the movements of Conservative Politicians.

But then I put my tintenitus down to the IRA bomb at Brighton. I had 'Bar Duty' at the Labour Club at Whitstable the following day - it was a question of blast damage - virtually every member of the club who came in that night was going "Blast !!! They missed her !

Gareth
Oh 'Tis my delight on a Friday night
To bomb the the bourgiousy

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:34 PM

Well, my figures for weapons held by the IRA are taken from Jane's Yearbook and British estimates -although in truth there are probably a lot of older semi-reliable weapons they could press into service if need be floating around out there.

And for the chap who was asking yes Sinn Fein has one TD in the south, polls were showing they might pick up 2 or 3 more if things went well for them. If I recall correctly Dail Eireann has something like 160 plus seats so they would still be a decidedly minority party. It's Ireland proportional representation system that would allow them to hold more power than might seem obvious at first sight from such figures.

Mr. Pooka with regards to Irish politics no-one understands it cos everyone time someone has an answer some other eejit changes the question. I really do not want to see the IRA back on a war footing, it would just inch along as a stalemate again - I do think the IRA should retain some arms however, that may be a controversial opinion at this point but one only has to remember hundreds of people been burnt out of their homes and field hospitals been errected by the Republic's govt. under Lynch to see why it might be neccessary, if not likeable, to defend yourself.

Marcus

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:58 PM

Marcus Black Wolf - begob, you're the first chap I've heard contend that the IRA should retain some arms for defense against the forces of the **Republic**! VERY interesting thought. All the more so if Sinn Fein (perhaps aided by the "single-transferable-vote" system to which you refer) elects enough TDs to hold the balance of power, and gets itself into a coalition government. And what if they "coalesced" with *Fine Gael*? - the political descendants of the hated "Free Staters", aren't they? Ahh, the politics.

Well then, being a reasonable chap, I say that for future defense against Dublin the lads can hang on to some pikes, an old Fenian gun, one short revolver with bandolier also, and a couple of sticks of the gelignite and their old alarum clock. That's it. / OKOK: one Thompson. But with full-automatic mode disabled. / Everything else goes to deChastellain.

Admittedly it's easy for me to pontificate (Trimble should pardon the expression). Here I am sittin' safe and sound in the good ole U.S. of A., far removed from all threats of violence and terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 07:26 AM

From weekend and to-days Irish papers, Newly revealed British documents have blown the lid on a murky cover-up of alleged collusion in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

British officals plotted the use of a contentious loophole in International Law to prevent the truth from emerging.

A highly sensitive letter from Lawyers to the British Foreign Office [exposed in The Sunday Tribune] says the British Government were preparing to employ "soverign immunuty" to destroy the relatives case again them.

The Law means governments can escape unpunished for criminal acts carried out by state agencies on their behalf.

British-Irish Rights Watch director Jane Winter says the documents are "truly startling, What seems crystal clear is that the British Government has something to hide about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, and was prepared to claim state immunity in order to not to have to reveal it."

And Pooka when the truth gradually ekes out here on collusin, you may discover that the Britsh and their Loyalist henchmen were involved from the very early days.

So, as I have said previously ,don`t be taken in by Trimble and co, so far amid all the rumours of an IRA "brake in" at Castlereagh we have had nothing but unverified reports. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:04 AM

Ard Mhacha's comments are interesting to me as I am currently reading Tom Hayden's book "Irish on the Inside" and he is writing about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in the same context.

As I said; "Consider the source." getting worked up over this while sectarian violence is still visited upon Nationalist citizens, unprotected by "law enforcement", seems a waste of time and effort. OOH! maybe that's the purpose?!

Pooka, you are a "Republican", that is in the Irish sense? I mean you didn't vote for Shrub, right? (BG)

Have you read TH's book?

CB

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:19 AM

I always find it strange that whenever the I.R.A. appear to be getting the lead in the propaganda war, something always comes along to cast doubts on it. The doubts always come from either the loyalists or the brits. How could anyone break into "one of the most secure buildings in Europe" guarded by one person ?, and carry off files on informers ?. There are more ways of finding out who these people are. One of the burglars had a distinct english accent. This break-in ranks as a real smokescreen, manufactured to take some of the shine off recent IRA decommissioning moves. Thats all it is - a smokescreen.
The other documents on high ranking conservatives were discovered not only in my old district but in the actual street that I was born and reared in. Did anyone not notice the absence of a date on these documents. They are probably old ones from when the conservatives were the government of the day, probably should have been destroyed years ago. The point is - as an army - the I.R.A. has the right to gather intellignce data, do you think the loyalist U.D.A, and U.V.F. etc don't have files on leading republicans ?. I bet the British army has a file on not only republicans but nearly all catholics who may have republican sympathies. This is all part of the game.
The I.R.A. has won this war, they have nothing else to do but sit back, keep the peace and not get goaded into action by either the brits or loyalists. In a matter of a few years it will all be over, they have won. The loyalist know this and are grasping at any little straw, determined to incite the IRA into breaking the cease-fire. In short, the loyalists are now in a state of panic and will do anything to change the course of events, this includes taunting and insulting young girls going to school, nightly forays into the nationalist new Lodge area and also the Ardoyne area, unwillingness to accept the decommissioning reports from de Chastelaine etc. Their days are numbered and they know it. The brits on the other hand also know it, but don't want to appear as being defeated, they want to give the place back for sure but don't want history to show that they were chased out. It's all a matter of stupid imperialistic pride. I for one would trust some of the loyalists politicians, I feel a few of them know what the future holds and are willing to take steps to mend fences before it is too late, I however would never trust any british politician. period.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:16 PM

Jimmy C: so, someone was described as having a distinct English accent. OK, seems pretty cut-and-dried evidence to me, it's surprising people find the matter worth discussing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: sledge
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:22 PM

So "The doubts always come from either the loyalists or the brits." Who else, Sinn Fein are hardly likely to run down their gun toting friends are they, any more than unionists are going to spend much effort running down the various loyalist gunmen.

And as for the subject of decomissioning, exactly what has been given up, and how are these weapons disposed of. For all I know a bunch of antiques as dangerous to the user as to any victim was left to rust in a field, the statements that significant quantities of weapons and explosives were put beyond use means little, what weapons, how were they destroyed, whats left.

The sooner both sides see the inevitability of serious change the better.

But one final thought for Marcus, do you really want to see the IRA keep a few weapons in reserve, for what, in case they don't like the results of an election in a united Ireland, in case some of them have strong views on abortion, or of course they could go on robbing banks as they've done in the past.

Stuart

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 03:05 PM

Who's lying? The ones without an angle -
Now tell me who doesn't have an angle and I'll show you a person with no influence.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 03:34 PM

Sledge,

Re:

The Castlereagh break-in, lets think about this for a minute. Here we have a building, where extremely important and confidential documents are stored, yet the authorities leave it with a staff of one ?. Intruders walk in, tie him up, go straight to the exact location of the files and walk out. It's like something out of a keystone Cops movie. This was conjured up by someone from the inside who has been given the job of doing something to stir the pot. and they have the audacity to refer to themselves as intellegence agents. It's a f...ing joke.

AS I said above, The IRA has won this war, the hard line loyalists are panicking and don't know where to turn. That is why they and their colleagues in the British Intelligence are running around manufacturing anything at all that will shed bad light on the republicans. Why would the IRA do anything at this stage to run the risk of losing any support, it does not make sense.

And as for the subject of decomissioning, it was agreed that an impartial commission under the retired Canadian General De Chastelaine would be set up to oversee the decommissioning proceedings, that has happened, and it is working. The IRA have destroyed many weapons, plastic explosives etc., with no reciprocal response from the loyalists and yet the motives of the IRA are being questioned?. The IRA would be stupid and foolish to destroy all. Whether one wants to believe it or not, those weapons and the threat of them being used again is the only thing standing in the way of a pogrom of ethnic cleansing directed against the nationalist community in the north,

The sooner both sides see the inevitability of serious change the better. I agree with this, I am glad you said both sides, so far there has only been one side willing to change, but they are intelligent enough not to change 100% until they see the other side starting to change as well, and that is not happening.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 03:59 PM

Jimmy C, Even some of the Loyalists are keeping mum about the "brake in". We have seen it all before, Trimble and his fellow Unionists won`t be satisfied until they corner the IRA into a breakdown of their ceasefire, it won`t happen, as you say the Republicans can lie back and wait for the envitable day. The murders of Lawyer Rosemary Nelson and newspaper reporter Martin O`Hagan by Loyalists,[both murders committed during the IRA ceasefire] are still a long way from being solved and considering the cicumstances of both murders the Police won`t be in any hurry to make arrests. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:31 PM

If the IRA had pulled of that Castlereagh break-in I can't believe they'd have been unable to avoid bragging about it somewhere, and it'd leak out soon enough.

Not that having "a distinct English accent" (Jimmy C) means anything. There's never been any shortage of people with distinct English accents who have (Irish) Republican sympathies.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:42 PM

Pooka

I wasn't advocating the IRA retaining weapons for use against the republic (although in truth I can just see somone who still calls the Republic the Free State out there saying that) rather I was refering when I mention Jack Lynch's time in govt. to the fact that it was in that era that Loyalists invaded many Nationalist areas in the North. Lynch's errection of field hospitals was to provide medical care for these people-some here may be old enough to remember the scandal of Neil Blaney and others in the Irish Defence Forces been implicated in smuggling guns to the Republicans.

The decommisioning argument was used during the Anglo-Irish truce to, it's ridiculous as far as I'm concerned, no-one can ever be really sure anyone from any side has handed in all their weapons -and fertiliser which is used in most major bombs (semtex is used as a 'starter') is available down any local garden centre. The decommisioning argument is a bluff and a stupid one at that as far as I am concerned.

Marcus

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:29 PM

Marcus - My sincere apologies. I completely misunderstood your earlier Lynch-and-field-hospitals reference re the Republic (exposing my comparative ignorance of the history); and then, to put the tin hat on it, proceeded to make smug remarks (extracted from song lyrics, mostly) about old IRA weaponry. I am sorry.

However, *my* reference to the "hated Free Staters"---if it's mine you mean, above---was not intended to be about today's Republic of Ireland.

Rather it was about what I understand (probably misunderstand---you tell me) to be *perceived* as the political lineage of the Fine Gael party. I.e., the notion that Fine Gael "descended", sort of, from the winning side in the Civil War, those who, led by Collins, defended the 26-county Irish Free State & the partition Treaty; whereas Fianna Fail descends, more or less, from the Republicans under deValera who fought, and failed, to overturn the treaty and carry on the campaign for a 32-county united Ireland.

My point was that if there any truth to that (& I've no doubt it's oversimplified at least), it would be ironic if *today's* Sinn Fein---which traces *its* lineage to, who? Tone? and has the *name* of what was deValera's party in those earlier times---were to join in coalition with *Fine Gael* to govern today's 26-county Republic.

I don't *really* think of the Republic as the Free State; nor of the Province of Northern Ireland as the Statelet. (I do sometimes slip & call it the Six Counties, though. I may not have the facts but I have my prejudices.)

I'd appreciate any further enlightenment, and correction. This thread is (as I expected) highly informative. Because you guys who post on this subject, know a lot. And a lot of you know it first-hand.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:52 PM

Coyote Breath:

Yes I mean I'm republican in the Irish sense---if I understand that sense correctly. I favor a united Ireland. I also favor the NI agreement, believing it will lead to a united Ireland eventually.

In U.S. politics, I'm a moderate Democrat. I'm what used to be called a Clinton Democrat, before we got so embarrassed about ol' Bill, sly dog that he is. / You know who I really like? George Mitchell. See, that sort of connects my American & Irish political views.

No, just like a plurality of the American electorate, I didn't vote for Dubya. (I did vote for his old man in 1988 though, in preference to Mike Dukakis. But not in 1992, when Clinton won.)

No, I haven't read the Tom Hayden book, but I'll look for it on your recommendation. Now, that's THE Tom Hayden, is it? 1960's radical? Sometime California State Senator? Formerly Mr. Jane Fonda? If it is, I just gotta get past his turning against fishing (his longtime passion)(longer than Jane, I believe) as a cruel sport. That pissed me off because I fish (never troll, though :), and deep down in my conscience somewhere I suspect he's right....Whoops! Thread-drift.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:16 PM

Look the Jews have their hit list, Mosada.

So do the British - M1

And lets not forget the CIA

Why do YOU begrudge the IRA a chance to play with the big boys?

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:44 PM

Pooka

Nah, I wasn't refering to your or anyone else here when I made that comment about Free Staters, I was just pointing out that it's an attitude some republicans still hold. Your more or less right in your description of the origins of the Fianna Fail and Fine Gael partys - although what with one thing and the other it has become more complex as time has gone on. For example it was a Fine Gael govt. that declared Ireland a Republic eventually. Other ironies include the fact that the initial govt. of the Free State executed more republicans during the Civil War than the British had in the preceding conflict with them and an Irish govt. introduced internment long before the UK got round to it.

As for the IRA they at present would probably say they were most influenced by the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising, which formed a Provisional Govt., hence their name is the Provisional IRA. Tone and the other leaders of the '98 rising do have a role in their calendar of heroes, but I think it's one the intellectual end of the IRA and Sinn Fein would be more likely to appreciate. As to Sinn Fein sitting in coalition with any party in the south, I have a feeling that the politicians would prefer another round of voting than to enter into such a partnership at this time. That old phrase about when supping with the Devil and so forth.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:00 AM

Marcus - Thanks! *More* good info. Fine Gael declared the Republic - I didn't know that. Remarkable. I knew it was in the 1940's but that's all. / Ironic too, is it not, that the civil war pitted deValera against Collins? But that's a whole 'nuther story, I guess...(yeah I saw the movie...was it correct? More or less?).

I gathered somewhere (?) that the Provies took the "Provisional" tag to distinguish themselves from the rather-passive "Official" IRA. But didn't know it related back to the Poblacht na hEireann proclamation at the GPO. Makes sense. Connect to the mythology. (Don't get me wrong: all nations *need* mythologies.)

So here's a mythology hypothetical: if Fine Gael had been in power, would they have re-interred, with honors, Kevin Barry & the others long buried at Mountjoy, as Fianna Fail's Bertie Ahern did? (Those men died in the Tan Wars, didn't they---before the Civil War? Or have I got that wrong?)

"That old phrase about when supping with the Devil and so forth. " -- Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: paddymac
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:06 AM

I was just rereading one of the articles commenting on the alleged recent weapons purchase from Russia. Nearly fell out of my chair laughing at the comment that these rifles could fire 1,800 rounds per minute. Now that's a characteristic of absolutely no value in a guerilla arena. I mean, each rifleman would need two support troops: one to drive the truck carrying the ammunition, and another to lug it from the truck to the firing position. Might need a third to reload belts or cannisters or whatever the loading mechanism calls for. Ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:18 AM

paddymac - b'Jasus. What would they do -- take down the entire Shankill or something, with these 3-man teams? / That's 30 rounds per *second*! Is that *right*?

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:50 AM

Pooka,

Well the movie took some (forgiveable given the nature of the medium I think myself) liberties with history. The actual surrender at the beginning to be pedantically historical did not occur at the GPO as the rebels abandoned it at the end of the Easter Rising as it was on fire - subsequent pictures of it's interior show just how gutted it was. In fact, the last headquarters of the Provisional Govt. was a fish shop :) Also, the car bomb bit is not true to history either and the detective who turns on the British to aid Collins is a composite of three different people in real life. My one problem with it was that it didn't show the war outside Dublin where people like Tom Barry or Ernie O'Malley had marked success in Collin's native Cork in guerilla fighting. On the other hand it was about Collins and his most succesful moments were in Dublin so I may just be carping. Yes I think Fine Gael would have reinterred Barry and the others, they are so long dead now and mostly everyone from that period that they can be safely romanticised by whichever govt. is in power.

BTW Paddymac where was this article about the 1,800 rounds per minute rifles? I have to read this for meself, it sounds like you say as if the writer has no idea as to the realities of war from a guerilla standpoint. At that rate of fire, one rifle would use up most of the IRA's magazine in a rather short time I would think. I remember the IRA used to 'doctor' weapons to fire in shorter bursts than normal to try and conserve ammo. First rule of guerilla warfare-mobility. The IRA don't use the medium and heavy machine guns they do have in their armoury much as it is because they are unwieldy.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 10:57 AM

Yup! that's the Hayden alright. I wonder about the fishing thing. I find fishing the least cruel of all endevors. Of course the actual CATCHING of the fish...(BG)

Ya know I still like Bill C. I am probably going to be classified as politically incorrect for that.

Like many Americans I support the efforts to achieve a 32 county Irish State and have been known to speak out to friends and co-workers in order to clear things up when the US media have gone off on a tangent.

Do I support armed resistance? There are many examples of successful UNARMED struggles. But sometimes it is neccessary to wage an armed resistance in order to achieve political validity, whereupon the movement can abandon armed struggle for political. There are movements which have achieved this. The Zapatistas are such. Knowing WHEN to cease fire is more critical than being able to wage an armed resistance. I think the IRA are capable in this regard. Lord knows there has been plenty of provocation on the part of "the other side". The IRA run the risk of being called "I Ran Away" again. Their "constituency" are endangered on a daily basis. They have been true to their stated purpose in disengaging militarily. It is Sinn Fein's job to secure the political strength that makes armed struggle unneccessary.

Personally, I am joyous that they have progressed to the point that are at now.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 11:09 PM

Marcus BW - thank you again. I'm really learning a lot here. / Yeah, now I remember reading that Pearse had to abandon the GPO and it going up in the flames. ("As Britannia's sons, with their long-range guns, sailed in from the Foggy Dew...")/ I've been 3 times to the GPO. Quite a feeling, being there, and just thinking./ Last time was shortly after Omagh. Sidewalk was covered with wreaths. I bought & placed one too; with a note praying that those innocent, multidenominational victims might be the *last* martyrs for old Ireland. /

Rebel Cork, eh? Seems like Collins's own home county became his toughest adversary -- and his personal doom.

CB - thank you too. Yeah I still like ol' Bubba also. Hey, he just spoke at a big Democratic Party dinner here in Connecticut, and wowed 'em. (Some ladies almost swooned at a mere handshake, reportedly... :) He outlined how to oppose Dumbya without being unpatriotic.

Tom Hayden & fishing vs. catching: *G* yes, anglers are familiar with that distinction, aren't we? Dammit. (But, last weekend, first time out this season, I did get 3 bass & released all unharmed. OKOK, sore; but unharmed. Phooey to you, Mr. Fonda. :)

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 04:00 PM

Re the automatic weapons, I expect they would continue the practice of switching to single shot for sniping, backshooting and kneecapping. For other operations , short bursts of auto.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 05:13 PM

Keith

Or they could take lessons from the Paras in shooting controlled bursts of automatic fire into crowds of course - mud slinging can go two ways you know.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 07:19 PM

"Sniping", indeed. / Well better we all should sling mud, than lead, sez I.

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 04:08 AM

UZI is 22 What caliber the 1800 rounds?

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: GUEST,Keith A working
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:45 AM

Marcus, I was just responding to the posts that seemed to be saying that guerillers would have no use for weapons with such a high rate of fire, which is of course false. (anyone know the cyclic rate of an armalite?)
Your point is well made, but to be pedantic, the Paras at Bloody Sunday did not have fully automatic rifles

Subject: RE: BS: 'IRA Hit List': Who's Lying, Here?
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:59 AM

Keith, fair enough - BTW, the Armalite corporation maintain a fairly comprhensive web site - I think the rate of fire for an Armalite (bearing in mind this would be under ideal conditions with no time between changing clips at all) was somewhere around the 600-700 rounds per minute mark. Mind you although the Armalite is seen as the IRA weapon of choice they really have far more AK-47s in their armoury. It isn't so much that the IRA have no use for high rate of fire weapons as so much that they have tended to move away from direct gun to gun battles over the years. Estimates put their magazine at somewhere around the 1 to 2 million rounds mark - possibly a bit higher.

I think guerilla armies of the future may tend to move away from bombing also, in favour of more advanced forms of terrorism such as cyber-space attacks or similar. The Irish govt. had it's own computers attacked by parties unknown (strongly suspected to be Indonesian after the Irish complained about human rights abuses there) leading in them been completely non-functional for around 2 days afterwards.