BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime

Subject: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:58 AM

will the isreali soldiers be charged with war crimes? could the jews be guilty of a holoucast on the palestines interesting very interesting

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 11:32 AM

Some would say all war is a crime...

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:38 PM

I'd guess that would depend on whether or not the investigation currently underway determines that any crime was committed, or if the civilian deaths were unintentional tragedies of war. Also, please remember that, while Israel was established as a nation for the Jewish people (and it has Christian, Moslem and unaffiliated citizens), the words "Israeli" and "Jew" are not synonyms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:50 PM

I feel that most of whats being said about warcrimes on the international forum is just hot air and playing the propoganda game. We have yet to see the evidence for atrocities on the scale that is being claimed took place. Repeated showing of the same apartment block having been destroyed, with the same unfortunate dead on the floor just doesn't do it.

Being labled nowadays as racist, being accused of genocide these days produces a stigma that all too often sticks whether true or not.

As the Israeli army is now withdrawing from many of the occupied areas, lets see if the palestinians are able to show themselves as reasonable after having undergone this recent occupation, or whether Arafat's lot will show how ineffective they are at stopping the suicides bombers that are always cited as being carried out in retaliation for this that or the other.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:56 PM

If you write "the jews" rather than "the Jews" or "gypsies" rather than "Gypsies" and so forth is generally interpreted as indicating a wish to insult the people involved.

Maybe that is purely an arbitrary convention, but anyone breaking it in this sort of context is inviting people to read it as intentional.

I imagine in this case it isn't meant to carry that coded meaning, since RO1SIN only uses capital letters for his name. But in any case talking about "the Jews" doing something is wrong headed. It's no different from saying "the Muslims were responsible for September 11th", of "the Christians carried out the Holocaust".

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 01:52 PM

will the isreali soldiers be charged with war crimes? could the jews be guilty of a holoucast on the palestines interesting very interesting

To RO1SIN:

I accuse YOU of anti-Semitism.

1) The title you chose for this thread indicates that Israeli soldiers HAVE been charged with a war crime. I assume that you are talking about the events at Jenin. At this point there is no determination that the massacre that some are accusing Israel of has even taken place.

2) You imply that "the jews" could be guilty of carrying out "a holocaust." First of all, soldiers in the Israeli Army may be Jews, but they are not "the Jews."

Do you know what a Holocaust is? A Holocaust is when 6,000,000 people are systemically murdered in a genocide. And while the death of any innocent person is a tragedy, there has been no Holocaust. If the Israelis had any desire to systemically or indiscriminately kill innocent people, it would be much more efficient to simply bomb the Palestinians.

RO1SIN, do not tell me that you are not anti-Semitic. Your language speaks for itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 02:13 PM

Sledge: Good post. McGrath: Surprise! I agree with you!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:06 PM

While I agree that an investigation is needed before anyone can say that war crimes have been committed, I also would say that an investigaion is needed before anyone can say that war crimes have not been committed.

If the Israelis had any desire to systemically or indiscriminately kill innocent people, it would be much more efficient to simply bomb the Palestinians

I disagree with this supposition. Whether or not the Israeli military are guilty of war crimes, one thing they certainly aren't is stupid. If they were going systematically or indiscriminately kill innocent people, they would do pretty much what has been done: they would prevent any outside observers from being in the area while the military operation was taking place, and then they would remove and bury any bodies themselves with no independent observers present. This has already been done. And we know that the Israeli Supreme Court authorized the removal and burial of the bodies by the Israeli military.

If, as a result of these practices, Israel finds itself dealing with the perception that it may have committed war crimes, they really have themselves to thank for that.

I don't find it terribly difficult to accept the idea that the Israeli military could commit war crimes for two reasons...

Someone I know who has an extensive military and law enforcement background worked closely with the Israeli military and police forces as a consultant during the Gulf War. A year or so ago, he told me some things about the Israeli military's standard operating procedure. This person has the utmost admiration for the Israeli military, so he wasn't saying anything in a critical sort of way. He actually endorses these practices. However, they do involve some highly questionable practices according to international law.

And I just can't get the image out of my mind that I saw of a man sitting on his living room floor looking bewildered, while the bodies of his brother and sister-in-law were in the process of decomposing on the floor next to him. They were killed by the Israeli military, and because of the Israeli military, the man was not able to remove these loved ones from his living room for several days. I don't think this was in Jenin. I think it was in one of the other places that the Israeli military has been conducting incursions.

And then there are the reports by independent observers of Israeli military forces indiscriminately killing anyone they saw in the street, such as a woman who was trying to get to a clinic to have a wounded arm looked after (not in Janin), and the firefighters who were trying to put out a fire behind the the besieged church in Bethlehem (and many others).

No matter how you slice it, these things don't look good for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:17 PM

we know that the Israeli Supreme Court authorized the removal and burial of the bodies by the Israeli military.

Who is this "we" that you speak of. I read the NY Times, the Jerusalem Post and several other newspapers each day. I also have CNN on for many hours of the day. I have seen no such report about the Israeli Supreme Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:23 PM

I saw it in the news reports of pretty much every news source I have been keeping track of. However, I think I remembered what was said incorrectly. I believe that there was mention of allowing the Red Crescent to observe the burials. So I stand corrected on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 04:00 PM

I find the tone of a couple of postings here a little unsavoury so I don't think I'll join you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 04:19 PM

I think that one thing that must be considered, given that it has happened in earthquakes, etc., is that people might have alive for days and deliberately covered over with rubble. I say this as someone who is usually a military apologist, and someone who believes that a military occupation of Palestine will be necessary for some time. I personally will go over there and do it if necessary, and I'm not soft on terrorists. But I will not give a blank check to my government to support this sort of brutality. Those days are over. Not one piece of our equipment, not one dollar of our money without observers. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 04:53 PM

Mr Feder

Sol a voxen a grosen poopik

When I say Jews you say Israelis

When I say Israelis you say Jews

When I talk about jews you say I am insulting your religion

whatever

When we say Irish or donkeys or paddys or micks of taighs or harps we dont care because we have been persucted for 800 yrs

suck it up pal

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 05:29 PM

This is not the first time that RO1SIN has shown him/herself for the anti-Semite that he/she is.

On March 8, 2002, RO1SIN started a thread, supposedly about Israel, that he/she called "The Old Jewish Question."

Anyone who has ever studied history knows that the "Jewish Question" is has to do with the right of Jews to participate in society. We also know what the Nazis determined would be the Final Solution to the "Jewish Question."

Looking at RO1SIN's response to Feder, it is easy to see that he/she takes delight in his/her anti-Semitism.

I fail to understand why Joe and Max allow Mudcat to be used by racists and anti-Semites with a destructive agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 05:57 PM

What the second intifada has shown, with increasing numbers of young Palestinians eager to become martyrs, is that the zionists can be made to pay a much higher price for their occupation of Palestine. When this cost is increased to the point that it outweighs its benefits or becomes more than the Israelis are willing and able to pay (or both), the zionists will be forced to go. Neither negotiations nor diplomacy mean anything to the zionists. After all, the Oslo accords were designed to favour the Israelis, who used them simply to trick the Palestinians into doing the zionists' dirty work, without the Israelis fulfilling any of their obligations. So why should anyone at all, let alone the besieged, betrayed Palestinians, trust them to behave differently in the future?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:07 PM

Israeli scientists are working on a genetically-targeted biological weapon which would kill Arabs without affecting other peoples.

The genetic weapons research program is based at the Institute for Biological Research in Nes Tziyona, outside Tel Aviv. It is known to be Israel's main research facility for 'weapons of mass destruction', and home to Israel's illegal and secret arsenal of chemical and biological weapons.

The proposed new weapon is based on recent western advances in genetics, including the animal and human 'cloning' programs, and would work by identifying genes exclusively carried by Arabs or certain kinds of Arabs. Special viruses designed to attack people carrying these genes could then be spread in Arab countries by spraying in the air or by infecting public water supplies.

Israel has, of course, denied the reports, as it continues to officially deny having any nuclear weapons, even though it is now widely acknowledged, even by its western allies, that it has a standing nuclear capability of at least 200 warheads.

It is interesting to note that the Israeli research program is similar to research carried out in South Africa during the apartheid period, to develop genetic weapons which could target blacks without affecting whites. The apartheid regime also had an advanced chemical weapons program, which it developed in co-operation with the US, Britain, Canada, Japan and Germany and is known to have worked closely with Israel in various military and defence areas.

The genetic weapons research program is built on scientific advances in genetics, in which US and British scientists lead the field. It is unlikely that Israel would be able to work in this area without privileged access to the latest work being done in the US and Britain. Nor, indeed, are western powers likely to permit Israel to develop weapons capabilities they do not already have themselves.

The Israeli work breaches numerous international laws and agreements, but has not even been raised in the United Nations or any other international forum. This is in sharp contrast to the treatment of Iraq, allegedly for its development of weapons of mass destruction, and of Pakistan following its nuclear tests in 1998. The lesson that there is one international law for the west, and another for the rest - which some Muslims seem stubbornly reluctant to grasp - is inescapable.

So too should be the awareness that the west represents a totally amoral civilization, if not an inherently evil one, with which Muslims and the Islamic movement cannot deal on any terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,a different one
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:11 PM

my god there's some funny ones crawling out from under the stones tonight

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:13 PM

I think guest has been reading way too many Tom Clancy novels.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:19 PM

Seems to me the "opressed beseiged" palestinians have shown time and again they would rather fight and murder than live in peace. Could have had a country of thier own in 2000, for that matter could have lived peaceably beside israel since 1947. They have continually chosen not to. There will be no peace until they acknowledge the right of israel to exist and stop teaching thier children it is a noble thing to murder israeli civilians. So why should i or anyone else care how many palestinians die? History doesn't lie unless you choose to ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:49 PM

So why should i or anyone else care how many palestinians die?

Do you really mean that, truckerdave? Would you support ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians? Would you support the elimination of Palestinians so we won't have to be bothered with them any more? When we get to the point where we don't care how many of a particular group of people are killed or die, it's not a very big step to get to the idea of genocide. You wouldn't support that, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Noreen
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:09 PM

Re the post of the unnamed 'guest' of 21-Apr-02 -06:07 PM

...would work by identifying genes exclusively carried by Arabs or certain kinds of Arabs. Special viruses designed to attack people carrying these genes could then be spread in Arab countries...

There is absolutely no scientific basis for this so-called 'research' at all, as there is more variation between the genotypes of two individuals of the same 'race' than there is between different 'races'.

I felt someone had to say it, for the benefit of those who might be taken in by this story.

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:11 PM

In reply to Roisin's yammering about Paddys and Micks been used as offensive terms to apply to Irish people you might think that would make her realise just how cutting and low such epitphets are. Also, yes Ireland has been persecuted mercilessly for 800 plus years but ahem, ever hear of little things like Masada, the revolt of the Macabbes etc which happened even further back in world history?

If you take the conscious chose to seize the racist and bigoted terms others have used about the Irish and transform then that is fine as you are Irish and can make that decision. Don't presume you have the right to make that choice for a Jewish person, the Black and Tans were grotesque, as was the apartheid state in the North -but they are a candle beside an inferno next to the Final Solution.

And even as a Nationalist whose politics often shade into Republicanism I do get a wee bit tired with the 800 years of oppression bit. Malcom X had the message for the black man that he had to see past previous injustices and realise his own dignity and worth. Yes, we should recall the injustices done but they don't define us a nation.

Marcus

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:25 PM

CarolC: what the Israeli Supreme Court said was that the Israeli army was forbidden to remove any bodies for burial elsewhere, and that any bodies already removed must be returned.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:33 PM

artbrooks, can you point me to a source for that? That's not what I heard, but I'm prepared to stand corrected for that, too, if what I said was incorrect.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:34 PM

This is a subject that is best not discussed on a thread coloured by racism, sectarianism and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:37 PM

Here is the most recent article. The one I saw was about a week ago and doesn't show up on a search anymore. CNN This says that the army can bury bodies, but apparently only if nobody else claims them. This is obviously necessary, for health reasons if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:39 PM

Thanks artbrooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:42 PM

The article isn't doesn't differ significantly from what I said...

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Supreme Court on Sunday dismissed a case that sought to bar the Israel Defense Forces from burying Palestinian victims at the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank.

And now I think I'm going to agree with McGrath about this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:48 PM

Carol C: your post of April 21, 3:06 P.M. First paragraph:huh? Next to the last paragraph: you find young Palestinian people blowing themselves, and innocent civilians in crowded markets, a more acceptable form of warfare?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:57 PM

DougR, I don't know what you have difficulty understanding about my first paragraph.

Re: my next to last paragraph, I find neither the Israeli approach, nor the Palestinian approach acceptible. But the Israeli approach is the one that is being endorsed and financed by the US government. So that is the one I am speaking out against here. If I saw balance in the way this situation is being handled, I would probably not be speaking out at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Heely
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:29 PM

One must be very carful what one says and does in writing on the internet. CarolC, thank you for your interpretation of the endorsements of the US. My first cousin. . . who I just saw this morning. . . General Anthony Zinni , would disagree with your accounting. Balance is achieved with an open and unprejudiced heart, and a willingness to listen. We must all practice peace, and discourage misinformation being spread. Zinni is an Italian Catholic America married to an Irish/German Protestant American. Peace, Shalom, Slan.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:46 PM

Heely, your cousin, General Anthony Zinni is certainly entitled to his opinions. However, so am I. And I disagree with your cousin. Now, as far as balance being achieved with an open and unprejudiced heart and a willingness to listen, would you also apply that to Mr. Sharon? Would you say that he has been conducting himself with an open and unprejudiced heart and a willingness to listen? It is my opinion that he has not.

I would say that Yossi Beilin (former Israeli justice minister) has been aproaching this issue with an open and unprejudiced heart and a willingness to listen, as has, in my opinion, former US President, Jimmy Carter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:50 PM

One must be very carful what one says and does in writing on the internet.

I took this to be a statement of opinion. However, perhaps it is a warning from your cousin. If that's the case, I would appreciate you letting me know in a PM so I can modify my behavior accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow is right
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:55 PM

"This is a subject that is best not discussed on a thread coloured by racism, sectarianism and bigotry." -McGrath of Harlow

McGrath of Harlow is right. The fact that Max and Joe permit Mudcat to be used by the forces of racism, sectarianism and bigotry is inexcusable.

Mudcat purports to be "a magazine dedicated to blues and folk music." I read blues (Living Blues) and folk music (Sing Out, fRoots, Dirty Linen) magazines and none of them would permit the garbage that is posted on Mudcat with great regularity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:59 PM

And on that note, if anyone else has anything they want to address specifically to me, as the several of the last posts have been, please put them in a PM or in the other currently running thread on this subject. I would prefer to not answer them on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:27 PM

General Zinni? THE General Zinni? If so, I would say he has information that would make him somewhat of an expert on the subject.

CarolC: I was jabbing you a bit about that first paragraph because it didn't seem to me that it added much to the subject. An investigation would show whether or not atrocities were committed. That's a given, isn't it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Heely
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:53 PM

Doug, Yes, THE General Zinni. He more than any of us should have an opinion on this matter. At least he has done something about it.He made peace efforts that we can all take lessons from. Pray for peace in our world. (by the way. Cousin Tony loves our folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:06 PM

Honest to goodness, my last post to this thread.

Heely, when I see the US government putting some real pressure on the Israeli government to implement your cousin's proposals, rather than the lip service they are giving it now, maybe then I'll believe the US government is genuinely interested in a balanced approach to the problems in the region. Until then, it just looks like so much hot air to me. Especially when they don't put their full support behind their own Secretary of State while he's in the region, working hard to get things moving, but act like he's nothing more than a freelancer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:03 AM

GUEST, McGrath of Harlow is right.
"Mudcat purports to be "a magazine dedicated to blues and folk music." I read blues (Living Blues) and folk music (Sing Out, fRoots, Dirty Linen) magazines and none of them would permit the garbage that is posted on Mudcat with great regularity. "
If this is how you feel, sport, just why have you chosen to grace us garbage mongers with your presence on not one, but TWO threads using the same sentence?

troll

BTW, I won't be upset if you don't answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:58 AM

I do not believe that I am an anti semite it is just a question

will war crimes be found in jennin

yes? no?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:13 AM

I do not believe that I am an anti semite says RO1SIN.

When you suggest "the jews" (sic), rather than some Israeli soldiers, may have committed a "holocaust," when no crime, and certainly no alleged massacre, has even yet to be proven, you are speaking the language of anti-Semites.

When you start a thread about Israel, as you did on 2002 8 March, and call it "The Old Jewish Question," you are speaking the language of anti-Semites.

When you tell me to "suck it up pal" when I object to your anti-Semitic language, you are speaking the language of anti-Semites.

Your choice of words speaks volumes. The fact that Max and Joe allow you to use Mudcat as a medium for anti-Semitism is shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:29 AM

some of the postings on this thread are indeed shameful, but the fact that Max and Joe allow it is not at all shameful. It is very important for us all to know who is out there, and what they're up to, and how they operate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:55 AM

we should all be working for peace, in the middle east and every where else. AND one MUST be allowed to question the policies and actions of the Israeli government without being called an anti-Semite. It's no different than our questioning/protesting against the US government during the Vietnam war, or the Gulf war, or the "Afghan Crisis" and being called anti-American, or now, a terrorist. Our government policy re: the Middle East I find reprehensible, and culpable. Sharon in my opinion is a war mongering terrorist if ever there was one. The actions of the Israeli army, in general, and in specific cases, is shameful. and the ethnic cleansing aims of Sharon's new minister are genocidal, and indeed crimes against humanity. I don't think that there can be peace for Israel without there being a Palestinian state. And for now there will be no Palestinian state without Arafat. If Sharon's aim is to assassinate Arafat, hoping the Palestinians will all move to Jordan, he is sadly mistaken. Sharon's policies will bring nothing to the people of Israel and Palestine but more bloodshed. And having a US President and many of his advisors being right wing Christians who actually believe in Biblical prophecy, Armageddon, the Second Coming and all that is truly frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:12 AM

we should all be working for peace, in the middle east and every where else. AND one MUST be allowed to question the policies and actions of the Israeli government without being called an anti-Semite.

I do not dispute the right of anyone to question the policies and actionsof the Israeli government. I am myself no fan of Sharon, and I do not support much of what the Sharon government has done in the very necessary fight against terrorism. If it were up to me, there would be a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Palestinian territories and a dismantling of the Israeli settlements.

However, what I do find disgraceful is when criticism of the Israeli government is shrouded in anti-Semitism. There is too much of that in the world and there is too much of it right here at Mudcat. The language that RO1SIN chooses is loaded anti-Semitic language. RO1SIN knows that and that seems to be RO1SIN's purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:09 PM

GUEST, Feder, it could be that RO1SIN is simply a clueless, insensitive boob who truly does not get the message.
Or not.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:28 PM

And todays award for the gratuitous use of "Genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" goes to Bill Kennedy, with extra points awarded for inclusion of the these phrases in the same sentence.

Stuart

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:46 PM

I would say that award should go to yourself, mr. sledge, for using them in the same sentence. I did not use them gratuitously and stand by my use of them.

If the new minister in Sharon's government states, as he has, publically, that his goal is to drive all of the Palestinians out of the west bank and gaza, and into Jordan or wherever else will have them, and if Sharon and the Israeli army actually destroy enough homes and infrastructure and kill enough residents, identifying them as Palestinian or just arab, that is both ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide. By making these statements I have not apologized for or condoned in any way the actions of Palestinian suicide bombers or Arafat. I question Sharon's policies and describe them as I see them as above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 02:08 PM

One politico mouthing off does not make policy for the nation, it is in the nature of polititions to make remarks that are often crass and inexcusable.

I have yet to see anything in the various news reports that shows anything like genocide or ethnic cleansing. Mass graves as seen in Bosnia have yet to be shown to exist, systematic round ups and mass shootings, have they taken place? that to me is ethnic cleansing and as for genocide, the Israelis surely know enough about being on the recieving end of that, that they are not likely to go down that road themselves. If it were shown to be the case I feel that they would soon find themselves a very small friendless nation, and for all their bluster they know it.

Stuart aka sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:43 PM

one or two more general comments, than quiet from me.

It may be, as Stuart says, in the nature of politicians to make crass and inflammatory statements, but I say they must be challenged WHENEVER they do so. Sharon & his government has not distanced itself or responded to those ministerial comments in any meaningful way.

POLITICAL RHETORIC KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE. It always has. It must be replaced by reasoned dialogue, not simply tolerated and accepted. Le Pen will rant about immigrants and somewhere people will be burned out of thier homes or killed by mobs. Likewise, the Minister in Israel & others will inflame others to acts of barbarity, & may do so in the name of peace.

MANY Israeli leaders have stated they want all arabs out of Israel. That is ethnic cleansing, which they may have not yet achieved or attempted, but it must be challenged early. I am not accusing Israel of specific war crimes YET, but I will not apologize for them if they occur, and if speaking out early can prevent them, so be it. The actions in the former Yugoslavia were not perpertrated in secret, but were given tacit approval by the silence of the rest of the world. Even more is at stake in the Arab/Israeli conflict. Now is the time to speak.

Peace must by achieved peacefully or it is not peace. The Palestinian intafada, from my point of view, is an attempt by them to respond to an overwhelming force of power in any way they can. IMHO Israel will not achieve peace through power, only a bitter, contested, short lived control. Not peace.

Let us all ask our leaders what they really seek. Mr. Sharon, do you want peace? or control? Mr. Arafat do you want peace? or revenge? Mr. Bush, do you want peace in the Middle East? or stable oil markets? If any of these 'leaders' do not want peace, we must work to replace them with those who do. The other things are not worth working for, and cannot be tolerated.

Having said all that, and holding back much more that can yet be said, I open myself up to the snide and sarcastic comments of those inclined to make such remarks, by saying I sure wish there were more interesting musical threads in the café.

It seems often when some new 'Catter, guest or otherwise, asks for info on a song, they are treated patronizingly by many, with 'it's in the DT...' or 'didn't you look?' or 'don't you know how to..?' more often then they are welcomed encouragingly by 'you've come to the right place', 'let me talk you through this' or 'that's an interesting question about a song we've discussed here many times, you might want to see...'. It seems we can start to build a more peaceful world even at this level. Ad hominems should be discouraged, trolls should be ignored, BS chat should be entered into sparingly if at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 05:02 PM

Please advise of the name, party affiliation and position of the Israeli government official who allegedly made these statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:17 PM

"An investigation would show whether or not atrocities were committed. That's a given, isn't it?" Unfortunately not. It'll provide additional evidence which might make it possible to determine what happened. But 30 years and there's still no unambiguous certainty about Bloody Sunday, and that was a much much smaller affair, and better documented at the time.

As for "ethnic cleansing", it doesn't seem that what happened in Jenin falls into that category. (But the reason the people involved were living in refugee camps in Jenin rather than in their homes back in Haifa - that was ethnic cleansing, if there ever has been ethnic cleansing.)

But once again, though I have once again contributed to this thread, I think that if people want to continue discussing this whole issue it'd better be done in a new thread that didn't start off in a way that came across as racist and sectarian.

As Kipling put it:

That which is marred at birth Time shall not mend,
Nor water out of bitter well make clean;
All evil thing returneth at the end,
Or elseway walketh in our blood unseen.
Whereby the more is sorrow in certaine--
Dayspring mishandled cometh not againe.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:44 PM

Dear Abby sorry I mean Guest Feder

Todays news is reporting that there was war crimes commited in Jennin

I gues that solves one question now the other one

Will the Israeli soldiers be so charged

Mr Fedder you there Mr Fedder??

Hallo

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:45 PM

my fears have been confirmed. They have pulled people alive out of the rubble..one was alive 9 days. Here is a URL..

http://www.hcef.org/news/news/NewsView.cfm?itemId=625&nType=News

Friends don't let friends bury people alive. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:11 PM

I think the charges of 'war crimes' were formulated ahead of the 'war' (Much like the formulation of this thread. The Palestinians went ahead and started a war ahead of declaring it, each homicide bomb a mini Pearl Harbor.

Now if they would only get themselves some uniforms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:47 PM

robomatic, do you really think the Palestinians knew ahead of time that the Israeli military was going to do what it did? I think you're the one who is grabbing a straws to support you bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:37 PM

RO1SIN, please give us a source or two. It's easy to make unsubstantiated statements. You may listen to a news source that no one else listens to or that is so one-sided as to make it worthless as a legitimate source.
Radio Jerusalem and Radio Ramalla are not likely to give unbiased reports.
The Palestinians may not have known what the IDF would do but surely they knew that it would do something.
The whole idea behind the homicidal suicide bombings was to provoke a strong response from the Israeli Government and try to turn world opinion against Israel and her chief supporter, the US. Pretty sucessful I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:43 PM

The whole idea behind the homicidal suicide bombings was to provoke a strong response from the Israeli Government and try to turn world opinion against Israel and her chief supporter, the US. Pretty sucessful I'd say.

Are you stating that as opinion or fact? If you're stating it as fact, can you provide an unbiased source for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,From one who has spent a few years in Palist
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:24 AM

Is there a conparitive Arab work that compares to anti semetic? Dont critisize my spelling ,as a one finger typist,and long after my bedtime,I make mistakes. CNN is not a reliable news agentcy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:36 AM

It is an opinion of course. How on earth could anyone prove such a thing short of the Palestinian Authority admiting it (which they would NEVER do).
Why else would they do it? To focus world attention on their plight? They would be much more sucessful if they committed suicide in front of the Knesset, killing no one but themselves ala the Buddhist(sp?) monks who burned themselves to death to draw attention to conditions in Viet Nam in the 60's.
No, I'll stand by what I said, opinion or not. I feel that it is a sensible explaination.
The whole world now condemns Israel for reacting as it did. That, I think, is what the whole thing was and is about.
The Palestinians hope that the UN or whoever will force Israel back to the old, indefensible pre-1967 borders, taking back Jerusalem, Samaria and Judea and setting the stage for the final destruction of the State of Isreal.
This is an opinion,but theres plenty of evidence to back it up, not the least being the PLO Charter.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:38 AM

Guest, Anti-Semitic can be used to refer to anti-Arab prejudice to, as both the Jews and Arabs are originally Semetic peoples -this can perhaps be seen as one of lifes little stabs of black humor if you think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:48 AM

RO1SIN, I did a quick search of the news wires and found a story on AP where Amnesty Int> accussed Israel of war crimes but produced no proof of same. There was nothing on Reuters, UPI, ABC News,or The Guardian. There was a story on the Islamic Republic Wire that paralleled the AP story. Here is the link. click here
As to the validity of Amnesty Intl.'s statement, time will tell. Since they present no evidence, their accusation has little basis in fact.
I could, with equal justification, accuse you of being a spy for the British Government. I have no proof, but, hey! I can always retract the statement if events prove me wrong, and in the meantime...

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:44 AM

Some different perspectives on the question of the Palestinian homeland...

Norman Lockman

Scott McConnell

Seebo

Mitchell Bard (?)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Lived in Palistine
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:55 AM

I dont like Jews ,I dont like Arabs, Idont like Japanese, I dont like French, I dont like Germanan,and I dont like the American gOVERMENT ,BUT i DO LIKE FAIRNESS ,aND i LOVE jUSTICE .If you think thats anti semetic that BUSHSHIT

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 08:07 AM

Marcus the Wolf begins to think Guest, lived in 'Palistine' is perchance living under a bridge at this moment if you dig my meaning people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 08:15 AM

Carol, nicely done. I don't believe Mitchell Bard is the author of the last piece, however. I think that it is simply a piece of staff writing from those who maintain the Masada 2000 site.
Bard is the author of "The Complete Idiots Guide to the Middle East Conflict".
I have seen the maps and very similar text on another site. I cannot recall the name but it was something like the Zionist Education something or other. I'll try to find it again but I really can't guarantee it.
Again, nice job.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:20 AM

According to RO1SIN:

Todays news is reporting that there was war crimes commited in Jennin

I gues that solves one question now the other one

Will the Israeli soldiers be so charged

Does RO1SIN make this stuff up? I have just been through the NY Times, I've watched the newscasts on CNN, NBC and CBS and none of them seem to have heard RO1SIN's "news."

With this post, I'm pulling my plug on further participation here. While I have no problem with debate, debate is impossible when people like RO1SIN use the forum to spread hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:52 AM

As of yesterday afternoon, the UN team that was going to Jenin to investigate the situation had been named, and the team leader said they expected to be on the scene later this week. How could someone definitively say "war crimes have been committed" before the neutral investigators arrive? Perhaps a non-neutral person?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:03 PM

as one of the posters above said the was the fact thast war crime were committed

Dpes any one here remember the girls school in Belfast that the students were stoned each morning they marched on that road

It was suggested that they could have taken another road but they took the one they did to bring discredit to the Loyalist mob that was doing the stoning so that the attention and public opinion would be agsinst the Loyalists

think of where the Irish problem would be now if we the USofA would have put as much input into ireland as we are in the mid east mainly Isreal

I say let the Israelis solve their own problems but let them be responsible for their actions in world opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 02:07 PM

as one of the posters above said the was the fact thast war crime were committed

Dpes any one here remember the girls school in Belfast that the students were stoned each morning they marched on that road

It was suggested that they could have taken another road but they took the one they did to bring discredit to the Loyalist mob that was doing the stoning so that the attention and public opinion would be agsinst the Loyalists

think of where the Irish problem would be now if we the USofA would have put as much input into ireland as we are in the mid east mainly Isreal

I say let the Israelis solve their own problems but let them be responsible for their actions in world opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:08 PM

Well! I'm certainly glad you clarified that RO1SIN. Thanks for sharing your unique insights with the rest of us. It has increased our understanding of the problems in the Middle-East.

I think.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 08:44 PM

Well ...not really.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST, sumb'dy else
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 08:54 PM

*wonders what kind of involvement RO1SIN would have the USofA have made in Norn Ireland?*

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 10:26 PM

I still cant wait for the findings of the UN in Jennin

The Israelis said today that there was not enough Israelis on the investigative committee

or some thing like that

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 10:54 PM

Annan Rejects Jenin Mission Delay

By EDITH M. LEDERER .c The Associated Press

UNITED NATIONS (AP) - Secretary-General Kofi Annan on Tuesday refused Israel's demand to delay and change a U.N. fact-finding mission to the war-ravaged Jenin refugee camp, directing its members to arrive in the Mideast by Saturday. The U.N. Security Council held an emergency meeting after Israel sought a delay, saying it wanted more military and counter-terrorism experts added to the team and also wanted the group to investigate what it says are Palestinian terrorist activities in the camp. At the end of a nearly two-hour session, the council issued a statement saying it expects ``fast implementation'' of a resolution welcoming the fact-finding mission - and Israel's ``full cooperation'' with the secretary-general and the team. While the council was holding consultations, Israel's U.N. Ambassador Yehuda Lancry met Annan in his 38th floor office at U.N. headquarters to ask for changes in the team's composition and its scope of action, which Israel wants limited only to Jenin itself. An Israeli official in Jerusalem charged that the team was chosen by Annan without consulting Israel, as had been agreed, and the members were political, not from a military background as Israel had requested. A Western diplomat said Israel wants to negotiate terms for the team's activities in Palestinian areas, and wants one member removed, Cornelio Sommaruga, former president of the International Committee of the Red Cross. But Annan would not discuss his choice of team members, though he did not rule out adding additional experts if necessary, a statement from the U.N. spokesman said. Finnish Prime Minister Martti Ahtisaari, the team leader, was scheduled to fly to Geneva on Tuesday night and hook up with other members there on Wednesday. He was expecting to be in the Middle East by the end of the week. Arab nations have accused Israel of massacring Palestinian civilians in the camp, but Israel says the deaths and destruction resulted from gunbattles between its soldiers and Palestinian gunmen. The fighting in Jenin was the fiercest of Israel's 3-week-old military offensive. Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres gave a green light to the fact-finding mission on Friday saying the country had ``nothing to hide.'' The Security Council unanimously endorsed the mission. But Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government objected to Annan's appointments announced on Monday. He named Ahtisaari, Sommaruga and Sadako Ogata, the former U.N. high commissioner for refugees. Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer on Monday night demanded that retired U.S. Maj. Gen. William Nash, who was appointed as military adviser, be made a full member of the team because of the complex security issues involved. He also asked that the U.N. team limit its mission only to Jenin. Officially, it will remain a three-member team. But Ahtisaari stressed other participants such as advisers and security personnel would bring its size to about 20. Ahtisaari told reporters on Tuesday that all members of the mission would work as a team, and Nash would play a ``crucial'' role, but as the military adviser. Neither Annan nor Ahtisaari ruled out the possibility of going outside Jenin. Nasser Al-Kidwa, the Palestinian U.N. observer, called the Israeli decision ``blatant blackmail which will definitely undermine the integrity of the fact-finding process.'' ``We thought that the Israeli side did not have anything to hide, but obviously they do,'' he said. Al-Kidwa said he initially asked for the council meeting after explosions in the Ramallah compound where Arafat is besieged by Israeli troops and tanks, which he called ``a very dangerous development.'' The Security Council has demanded an immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces from Palestinian cities in the West Bank, including Ramallah, and a cease-fire. The Israeli army said it set off controlled explosions Tuesday to blow up grenades found in Arafat's compound. But Tawfik Tirawi, head of Palestinian intelligence in the West Bank, accused Israel of wanting to destroy a wall between the prison inside the compound and Arafat's office so they could easily enter. Problems with the International Committee of the Red Cross - which Sommaruga headed from 1987 until 1999 - have been continual since Israel was first rejected for membership in the organization in 1949. The ICRC recognizes only the Cross and the Muslim Crescent as official emblems and will not sanction the Jewish Star of David as a symbol for relief workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 11:39 PM

Why do you seem to feel that there is something wrong with having experts in military operations and counter-terrorism, instead of politicians who may have no knowledge in those fields, on the investigation team, RO1SIN?

The Israelis said today that there was not enough Israelis on the investigative committee

or some thing like that

The article you quote in the very next post gives the lie to this statement. It also gives the reason that the Israelis object to the former Red Cross man. It would seem to me that the International Red Cross acted in a manner that could well be construed as anti-Semitic in allowing the Cross (Christian) and the Crescent(Muslim) as official emblems but not the Star of David (Jewish).
I still cant wait for the findings of the UN in Jennin
What will you do if the investigation fails to uncover a massacre, RO1SIN?
I think that you will claim that there was a cover-up. I don't think that you are at all interested in learning the truth. I think that you are hoping to have your biases reinforced.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 12:07 AM

Oh, please. How is the Red Cross not allowing the star of David as an official emblem anti-Semitic, Troll? Should EVERY minor religion have their own officially recognised "red cross"-style emblem? Shintoists, Baha'is, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, Asatruar? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think that ANY of the world's minor faiths have their own. Xtianity and Islam, in case you hadn't noticed, are the worlds two largest religious groups, by far. Get real, and start whining about Hindus before you get way down to the Jews. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 12:53 AM

If you will READ my post instead of allowing your knee-jerk reactions to take over, you will find that I said that I could see how the refusal to allow the Star of David to be an official Red Cross symbol could be construed as anti-Semitic since the reason the Crescent is used by Muslims is that they object, on religious grounds, to wearing a cross.
Whats good for one should be good for the other.
I am unaware of any symbol that readily identifies the Hindu, the Shinto or the Zoroastrian, but the Mogen David is known the world over as the symbol of Judaism.
In conclusion, I don't believe that ANYONE should have to wear a symbol that represents a religious belief that they don't subscribe to. But that is what the Red Cross would require of the Jews and Hindus and any other faith but Christianity and Islam.
If this is whining, so be it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 01:36 AM

I did READ you post the first time, Troll. Just re-READ it. Same response.

So, I agree with your last, uh, paragraph-like thing. But I disagree that the IFRC's decision not to allow a "Red Star of David" could even be "construed as anti-Semitic." If they allowed a Hindu "Red Om," or a Buddhist, uh, "Red Wheel," but not a "Red Star of David," fine, anti-Semitism. Anyone who thinks the current system is anti-Semitic is full of shit, and knows it. :)

In a perfectly fair world, every 2-person cult would have their own "Red ____." But I think you'd agree, Troll, that might get confusing. "Red Crescent" is already pushing it, for me. Ditch the cross altogether, and unfurl the RED SHATNER!

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 01:38 AM

Oops! Pulled a Troll with the italics there. ;) Nothing after "construed should be italics, heh.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 01:43 AM

Man, I'm tired. Forgot to add "Could someone fix that, please?" (Wish:Editable posts)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:02 AM

Actually, it's a GREEN crescent, but I wouldn't have expected you to know that. I don't suppose it occurred to you that in denying a "Red Wheel(?)" etc that the IRC could also be anti-Buddhist as well?
No, I don't suppose it would.

troll

BTW< The Hindus don't use Om. It's the Buddhists . It comes from the mantra "Om Mane Padme Hum" which translates "Hail To The Jewel In The Lotus" and refers to Gautama Buddha.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:50 AM

BTW troll, Om is Sanskrit, and is Hindu and even earlier Vedic, & predates the Buddhist use by quite a bit; and the mantram you quote, incorrectly, is specifically Tibetan Buddhist - 'Om Mani Padme Hum', & which is quite a bit later than the early Buddhist, whose writings were in Pali, and who did not believe in or use mantric practices. Your translation is pretty correct, but it doesn't really translate into English very well. Om does not mean Hail, a better translation might be - Om, The Jewel in the Lotus - the sound of these syllables in Sanskrit are supposed to have a force or power, not the meaning of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 09:15 AM

and one could mention that the Mogen David is in use in Vedic India centuries, if not millennia, before it appears in Judaism. The red star might be confused with being Indian at that. The Red Cross obviously has its roots, though innocently perhaps, in Christian symbolism, and one can understand the Muslim resistance to its use, particularly in relation to the Crusades, which by definition were designed to impose the Cross on subject peoples. There have been Crescentades as well. There have not been forced obedience to the religions of the Hindu or the Buddhist, or the Taoist, though perhaps in some ways to the Confucian. It's mostly 'eople of the Book' who feel compelled to imnpose thier will and thier religion on others, by force if necessary. I'll never understand how anyone with a brain and some free time to think about things can actually believe in the god of the old testament, and by extension, the new either, and by extension any so called prophet of that god. The Jews in ancient times worshipped goddesses, and other gods, came to the one god idea rather late, not ab origine as many would have us believe. An all powerful creator demands obedience from his creatures, and curses them to eternal damnation, but is dissuaded by the blood sacrifice of his son? Yes, there was a tradition of blood sacrifice in many ancient religions, the Greek, the Hindu, etc. It is still accepted in Islam and in some Orthodox Christian rites. Primitive. and not to knock the primitive, I think there is something to sympathetic magic. But belief in this god and a promised afterlife? Pie in the sky when you die. Bon apetit. and how many more innocent people must die horrible deaths in the name of this god? I mean, hundreds, thousands of 'martyrs suffered much more than three hours hanging on a cross. Mere humans even recreate the experience every Easter and are not too much the worse for wear. I don't question anyones RIGHT to believe in Santa Claus or whatever they like, but when it threatens the existence of all life on this planet, and some so called religious people develop very late in thier doctrine ideas of Eschatology, and Armageddon, and the Second Coming, it's time to say that's okay for you, but we won't cooperate with your god's plan. Peace to all, may all beings be enlightened.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 09:17 AM

Spelling has never been my strong suit.
My point was that the Hindus don't use "Om" or at least are not widely recoginsed as using it- especially as a cultural or religious identifier- in the way that the Cross is used. I am aware that its use as a mantra is primarily confined to Lamaistic Buddhism (which is not confined to Tibet).
It was not my intent to start a discussion on comparative religion. I try to steer clear of that particular morass.
If the Hindus do use "Om" in their religious practices, I was not aware of it. My undergratuate minor focused more on Islam than on the Eastern faiths and that was well over 30 years ago. I appreciate the correction.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 09:47 AM

for closer inspection:

ICRC flags

But why especially the Arab states opposed to Israel being admitted to the ICRC using the Star of David as an argument when at the same time another state (Iran) was allowed to use the Red Lion and Sun escapes me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 10:29 AM

Troll, I am not being condescending and hope I am not coming off as a patronizing pedant, but you made your statements pretty emphatically. I hate postings that begin 'did you perhaps mean MANI?' pointing out an obvious typing error and adding nothing to the discussion. In this case since most people are not familiar with Sanskrit, or Tibetan Buddhist Sanskrit it seemed a correction was in order.

FYI Om is widely used in Hindu religious practices. It begins every prayer offered to any of the gods in Hinduism. The use of OM in lamaistic buddhism comes directly from Hindu based Yoga practices of Tantra, which include mantra (sound) and yantra (image) where both OM and the six pointed star are in use and have been since about 4000 BC or so, some say longer, some a bit shorter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 02:20 PM

Bill, no offense taken. Again, I appreciate both the new information and the correction.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 02:40 PM

Wow, Bill, thanks for all that info. :)

Troll: "Actually, it's a GREEN crescent, but I wouldn't have expected you to know that."

No, it isn't. It's red, wise ass. :) (See Wolfgang's clicky)

And, again, I'd like a non-religious symbol. OK, maybe not a Red Shatner, but maybe those Red Chevrons. (again, in Wolfgang's clicky)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 07:13 PM

You're right.ItIS a red crescent. I don't know what I was thinking.
Kermit the Frog is green.
Medication time. NURSE!!!

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:05 PM

will I be disappointed if the UN does not find that there was war crimes in Jennin?

No I wont be disappointed

The simple question was and still is

Will the Israeli soldiers be tried on war crimes IF

it is found that war crimes were committed

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:31 PM

I just saw your "Rabbi" thread, RO1SIN. I'd say your behavior in this forum would be considered an embarassment to whatever category of people you belong to. Unless you're just a Troll. In which case, never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:39 PM

NOW I remember where I got "green" from. The Chinese use a green cross to denote medical facilities such as pharmacies.
Whew! I guess my mind isn't completely gone yet.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:46 PM

RO1SIN, if israeli soldiers are found to have commited war crimes, why would they NOTstand trial?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:47 PM

CarolC,

RO1SIN is proof that some of the worst trolls are Mudcat members. Look at that Rabbi thread, look at RO1SIN's posts here. Look at the "Jewish Question" thread that he started last month. RO1SIN is a real piece of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:54 PM

I would like to read RO1SIN's reply to Troll's question.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 09:53 PM

Several folk have been very eager to jump on the war crimes issue before ANY FACTs have come out. I don't wonder at the timing of this thread.

Unless they find a bunch of bodies in a pit with holes in the back of their skulls, I don't know how you're going to prove war crimes. The Palestinians booby trapped the camp and shot at Israelis who were on foot to attempt to clear areas of noncombatants.

No way we're talking Serbia here.

I think the timing of the question, the raising of the accusations, and the attempt to flood the media with diatribes with no factual content are themselves indications of a rather large and broad brush smear campaign.

The Israelis were there as a warlike response to many acts of war. They weren't there to sell magazines. I understand now that the 'devastation' wrought in Jenin is not as great as represented.

But if the Israelis were convinced that the Palestinian Authority infrastructure was part and parcel of the deluge of homicide attacks, then their response was logical and proportionate. The WISDOM of it is another matter.

The European responses vary from ludicrous to outright anti-semitism. I don't approve of posting wholesale opinion columns into this venue, but consider Oriana Fallaci's recent opus on what's been getting printed. Where were these people when Israelis were the targets? What was the U.N. proposing to do to safeguard innocent civilians who were being blown up in markets and buses?

The Israelis are doing what only they are left to do: Taking care of business.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 10:27 PM

Taking care of business

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 10:34 PM

Carol C: You offer "The Palestine Monitor" as a non-biased source of informatiion in rebuttal to robomatic's post?

You must be kidding! You are, aren't you?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM

Christopher Hedges' article appeared in Harper's magazine. I wanted to find the original article in Harper's by Mr. Hedges, but my search skills are not that advanced.

However, to address your comment, would you automatically accept an article from an Israeli news source as being unbiased? If so, why would you do that but automatically dismiss one from a Palestinian source? No bigotry toward Palestinians, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:49 AM

I read Hedges story. I was surprised that none of the "mainstream" media picked it up. about the only places I saw any mention of it was in passing in other articles in sources like the Islamic Republic Wire and the Electronic Intifada.
I would have expected to see the news full of such a sensational piece but I did not so I don't know how much credence to give it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:00 AM

I think it's probably pretty safe to say that the mainstream media has been queasy, at the very least, about publishing the Palestinians' side of the story out of fear of accusations of anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:17 AM

Funny thing. They didn't seem the least bit queasy these last few weeks about being critical of Israel.
But I suppose that there is a difference between criticizing Israeli policy and " publishing the Palestinians' side of the story ".
Although I'm not quite sure what the difference is, I'm sure that someone will enlighten me.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:29 AM

They sure looked queasy about it to me. I didn't see any criticism of Israel in the mainstream news until large numbers of Arab Americans complained about how conspicuous it was in its absence. And then, when they did start including it, they made a lot of apologies for it.

I would think that the Palestinian side of the story is whatever is being experienced by the Palestinians, and not the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:57 AM

If you are going to criticize one side, you must , at the very least, explain what they are doing that is so wrong and that automatically tells the other sides story.
At least that's how it was when I was in journalism but perhaps things have changed.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:34 AM

Dennis Bernstein

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:38 AM

Eyewitnesses in Jenin from all over the world.

(Not just Palestinians, for those who have an inherent difficulty with believing Palestinians.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 03:09 AM

Truly some horrible stories, but I would hardly expect anything else from the Palestine Monitor. They certainly aren't going to print stories that portray Israel in a good light, now are they?
But you know, if you blow up old women and children, you've got to expect a little flack from the survivors.
BTW, have you seen the stories and films about Hamas teaching kindergarten kids how to be suicide bombers? They hate Israel more than they love their children and THAT"S sad.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 04:43 AM

But you know, if you blow up old women and children, you've got to expect a little flack from the survivors

Yeah? How about when the people who are blown up are Palestinians and the survivors are Palestinians? Then, too? That one cuts both ways.

I guess you've already made up your mind, troll, and no amount of new information is going to change that.

I suspect that kind of denial is what made it possible for someone like Hitler to accomplish what he did. I bet a lot of otherwise well meaning people just couldn't believe their government, or the government of a civilized country, could do such things. So they didn't believe it, and they didn't do anything about it.

I guess we'll know if those stories are fabrications or not if there are some actual people (not just Palestinians, who clearly don't have full human being status), who will stand behind them, maybe some people from places like the US, with names that don't sound Arabic.

I don't think those people hate Israel more than they love their children. I think they want their children to be able to live like human beings, and they know it's not going to be possible as long as people like Sharon are running the show. I'm betting they just feel like they've got nothing to lose, and no hope for a better future for their children. And when people lose hope, they do some crazy things. Besides, if there's any truth to that article by Christopher Hedges, maybe they figure the Israelis are just going to kill their kids eventually anyway, so maybe they're just trying to give their kids inevitable deaths some purpose in the hopes that maybe someone's kids in the future will be able to have a better life.

And the hate thing goes both ways. This from Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef...

It is forbidden to be merciful to them, you must give them missiles, with relish - annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones. May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arabs' heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them, and cause them to be vanquished and cause them to be cast from the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:02 AM

Amnesty International

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:19 AM

Neta Golan, of the Israeli human rights group, Bat Shalom

Report of a trip to the Occupied Territories, December 11 - 18, 2000, Tad Mitsui (Some Canadian Christians)

Subject: RE: From Neta Golan, an Israeli Jew
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:22 AM

Muhammad Daud's Killer

Note: Neta told this story on Flashpoints Radio, Jan 2, 2002 see: http://www.flashpoints.net/index-2002-01-01to03.html#neta for the full text and pictures, there you can click on the "14:30" mark for the audio accompaniment

Dear Bat Shalom Friends and Allies-

We are sending you a report from activist Neta Golan. It is as harsh as only truth can be, and it is revelatory. It is why we do the resistance work that we do, thousands of Israeli women who continue to assert our uncompromising truth - that occupation is wrong, occupation is terror, occupation must end. Terry

I had spent the day with the villagers of Deir Istiya in which we planted trees on land coveted by the settlement of Yakir. I was on my way home. Two soldiers recognized me and asked in Hebrew:" Neta how are you?" To them I was a novelty. "You know who I'm talking to?" One of them told a friend that phoned his cell phone "Neta from Peace Now" ( I am not from Peace Now but thats as far left as they could fathom).

We talked. At one point one of the soldiers told me: "when I see a terrorist laying on the ground in his own blood it gives me an appetite". He hesitated before continuing. He wanted to reveal to me something he was proud of. "There was a time when someone in Hares village picked up a huge bolder to throw at me. Do you know what I did?" He asked.

I knew. "You killed him." "That's right" he smiled, self-satisfied.

I know the two children and the young father who where murdered in Hares in the last fifteen months by Israeli soldiers so I asked him when it happened, On what day? By his answer, I realized the soldier in front of me was the murderer of my friend Muhammad Daud.

- "Let me tell you who you killed" I said. - "I don't care." - "I know you don't but I want you to know who you killed. His name was Muhammad Daud and he was fifteen years old. He was retarded and I loved him very much..."

I told him every thing I could think of about Mohammad and about his family. He didn't want to hear it. "I know where he was standing" I said. "I saw his blood on the ground. There is no way he could have thrown a stone at you from so far away, let alone a boulder."

- "You weren't there." He was screaming now. - "OK. You were there. So you tell me. How far do you think he could have thrown that "boulder"? Three meters? Ten meters? Lets just imagine that it was humanly possible to throw it a hundred meters. You were over three hundred meters away. - " You weren't there. " - "That's right, I wasn't there. You were there. So you tell me, how far away were you when you murdered him?"

He kept trying to stop me, but I wouldn't stop. It was all I could do. And the fact that he didn't want to hear it was the only indication that maybe somewhere deep inside there is a piece of humanity still intact in this boy.

After they walked away I was lucky to have friends with me who held me as I wept. Meeting his killer reopened the wound of losing my friend, a wound that never healed. I realized that if any man was evil, the soldier I just spoke to was, and yet he was a boy, an ignorant and stupid boy who never should have been given any power. Who never should have stepped foot in any village. Who never should have had a gun.

Young Soldiers, many of them like Muhammad's Killer control every Aspect of the lives of millions of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Ignorant youth like these have the power of life and death over Palestinian elders and children alike.

This cannot continue. To stop this injustice we need help. Help us.

In solidarity, Neta Golan

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:39 AM

Carols latest posts are pretty harsh indeed and if the content is true Israel needs to clean up its act and those responsible must see the inside of a court, but this sort of things works both ways.

Little has been said about the three palestinians who were accused of being Informers for the Israeli forces, two days a go they were dragged into the street and murdered by their own people, the bodies then hung from pylons for all to see, and for those of you who didn't had access to uncensored tv /press pictures, it was very ugly, Will those killers be bought to justice.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:52 AM

"I suspect that kind of denial is what made it possible for someone like Hitler to accomplish what he did."
Please quote my statement where I have denied that the Israeli Government is also at fault.
I don't think those people hate Israel more than they love their children.
People who love their children don't teach them that it's cool to be a suicide bomber. I repeat, there has been film on the news showing masked Hamas members showing little kids how to put on a belt of explosives. Mrs. Arafat- taking a break from shopping in Paris- stated that if she had a son, she would be proud if he were a suicide bomber.
I don't know how you feel about it Carol, but, to me at least, this does not show love for your children.
"maybe they're just trying to give their kids inevitable deaths some purpose in the hopes that maybe someone's kids in the future will be able to have a better life."
And maybe they hate the Jews more than they love their kids.
My mind is not a closed book, but it takes more than a few knee-jerk stories to convince me of anyones nobility of heart and purity of spirit. Or the lack thereof.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:47 AM

No Carol, I would not consider a story taken from an Israeli newspaper or propaganda organ unbiased. Geeze!

It seems to me, after reading the posts you and troll made today that if anyone has a closed mind, Carol, me dear, 'tis thee!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:05 PM

This from the Wall Street Journal:
"Amnesty International says it stands for human rights, presumably including the right to due process. And yet here's what passes for "evidence" when Amnesty is trying to convict Jews of war crimes:

Professor Derrick Pounder, a forensic pathologist at Dundee University, visited Jenin hospital on behalf of Amnesty to examine some of the bodies that had been recovered. But what surprised him most was the absence of severely injured patients, since the hospital is less than a kilometre from the camp.

"In a conflict of this type in a densely populated are, where the Israeli army lost a substantial number of men, it is inconceivable that there were not also large numbers of severely injured," he said.

Normally, he would have expected to find three people severely injured for every one killed. Even if one accepts the Israeli claim that "only" 40 Palestinians died, there ought to be another 120 lying badly wounded, in hospital. But they are nowhere to be found.

"We draw the conclusion that they were allowed to die where they were," Professor Pounder said.

Back in Jenin, the Jerusalem Post reports on a Palestinian effort to fabricate evidence:

One camp resident wanted me to stage a photograph. He pulled me into a home on the perimeter of the destruction. The front of the house was peeled away like a thin veneer. The floor was buckled, and the few pictures that remained on the walls were tilted at a distressing angle. But then the man lay face down on a mattress, splayed out his arms, and closed his eyes. When I didn't take his picture he looked up at me and said, "You take picture now." I declined.

The guys at Reuters even attempt to use Palestinian atrocities against the Jews. A dispatch titled "Israel Rejects U.N. Jenin Probe" is accompanied by a photo showing a body being dragged through the street. There's no caption, so readers would naturally assume the photo is from Jenin, but in fact it is from Hebron, and it depicts an Arab "collaborator" who was lynched by his fellow Arabs."
I have nothing to add.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:13 PM

how could they get to the hospital if they were buried in the rubble?

What bothers me the most in all of this is what I can only perceive as sadistic behavior in their military...and once that gets in, it is very very hard to weed out. And it would be nevertheless be stopped if that was the desire of the high command. The highest command, who I believe is possibly sadistic himself. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:31 PM

Israeli soldiers charged with committing "war crimes"????

Shocking! Unconscionable! Blatant anti-semitism!!! Gross insensitiveness to all ancestors of the survivors and victims of the Holocaust!

Soon they will be charging Bugs Bunny with stealing carrots...and...and William Shatner with bad acting!!!

WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO?????? We must stamp out and destroy all those responsible for these evil assertions, obliterate them from the face of the planet! No action, however brutal, can be wrong when it is used to defeat EVIL INCARNATE!!! When can I enlist in the heroic Israeli forces, join up, and do my bit for freedom and justice?

:-(

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:43 PM

I hardly think that ALL the badly wounded were buried in the rubble and that only the slightly wounded were outside the buildings.
In my experience it would be more likely to be the other way 'round.
But that's only an opinion and not based on the hard facts that were obviously available to Professor Pounder.
But wait; upon re-reading the article I find that he says; ""We draw the conclusion that they were allowed to die where they were," Professor Pounder said."
That sounds like an opinion to me, based on what he expected to find instead of what he found.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:20 PM

I stand on my original question

If and i said IF it is found out will they be tried

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:32 PM

There will always be horrifying personal accounts from both sides of any given military conflict to enflame the emotions of people who have already made their mind up as to who the "bad guys" are. The more important consideration is...who is the dominant power on the scene? In their hands lies the greater opportunity to effect a positive resolution, because they have the power to do so. Who holds greater killing force and can wield it more effectively? And how can someone persuade both sides to show restraint and stop seeking further vengeance?

An aggressor seldom sees the need to cease aggression when he is winning.

History has shown that dominant powers never admit to committing terrorism (although they practice it routinely) but they reserve it as a label for the less powerful forces with whom they are fighting....particularly if those forces are "unofficial" (not in a national uniform). This situation lasts as long as a dominant power (like Nazi Germany, for instance...or Serbia...or Turkey...or Japan...or...) is undefeated and still in command of the situation.

Upon its irrevocable defeat, however, the tables are finally turned, and the leaders of the formerly dominant power find themselves being accused of crimes against humanity.

For this, as well as even more pressing reasons, the Israelis must pray that they never go down to a serious defeat or they will find the shoe on the other foot...

I have stated repeatedly, as I think you all know, that both Israel and the Palestinians have used terrorism on each other over and over again, and are continuing to do so. Each does it in the manner that they think is most workable and effective, given the resources each has to work with.

To ignore this, and to fulminate against one side only is to be blind...but I will say this: my sympathy is less with the side which has the far greater firepower under a single, unified command...because that side is in a position to make real and effective moves toward peace...if they only have the will to do so. The will is simply not there, at the top levels where it is needed. The only will there is the will to seek revenge, to punish, and to triumph.

The Romans saw no reason to negotiate with the Jews when they crushed the Jewish rebellion and destroyed Jerusalem either. He who has the power to win decisively has little inclination to offer favours to his opponents...despite his protestations of nobility, humanity, etc....and he refers to those opponents as "barbarians", "rebels", "terrorists", "bandits", and other convenient labels of that sort, in order to justify wiping them out or conquering them.

There is a deep unthinking hatred being expressed on both sides in the Middle East, and a deep sense of moral superiority as well...two blind men, fighting in a pit of their own creation, both accusing the other of being...blind.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:34 PM

RO1SIN asks If.

Why don't you ask Sharon, he might be lurking on the forum somewhere.

The question in itself is trite, how can anyone on this forum have the answer, unless of course a few members of the knesset are also signed in.

The positive side of the question is that it encourages some debate on this issue.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:45 PM

It also produces more reasoned statements like the one above from LH.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:43 PM

RO1SIN, your original question was:"Will the Israeli soldiers be tried on war crimes IF it is found that war crimes were committed ?"
I repeat my question to you; " if israeli soldiers are found to have commited war crimes, why would they NOT stand trial?.
I am glad you are willing to stand by your question.
But your response doesn't answer MY question. Did you intend your response as an answer or was it merely rhetorical?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 03:38 PM

C'mon RO1SIN......We're waiting............Troll asks you a legitimate question.........What's your answer?

I'll answer yours..........If they are found to have allegedly committed war crimes (I say allegedly because without that stipulation there is no question and no need for a trial), then I believe they will and should be charged and tried. Now it's your turn.........Once again:

If Israeli soldiers are found to have allegedly committed war crimes, why would they NOT be charged and stand trial?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 04:35 PM

Was the soldier who murdered the Palestinian boy in Neta Golan's piece charged and brought to trial? Or any of the other Israeli soldiers who have committed these attrocities? (And from the research I did last night, there seem to be quite a few of them) No. It sure looks like they haven't. It looks like the Israeli military and the Israeli government has been committing attrocities with impunity for years.

And now it's getting worse, and everybody seems to want to keep their head in the sand and pretend it's not happening. Except for a few brave people, like the Israelis who are in prison for being conscientious objectors.

Here's something interesting - there are more consientious objectors in Israeli prisons right now than there have ever been in the history of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 05:12 PM

And you're right, DougR. I do have a very closed mind when it comes to crimes against humanity. I think they should never be tolerated.

And for those who would say, "we shouldn't tolerate crimes against humanity when they are committed by suicide bombers either", I say this... I don't see those crimes being tolerated. I see them being punished. (More than three dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli). But I do see the crimes being committed by the Israeli government and military being tolerated. And more than being tolerated, they're being excused and supported. By us.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 05:28 PM

One man's war crime is another man's good strategy or "collateral damage". Who would charge the Israeli soldiers? Who would press those charges? Israel? I don't think so.

If anyone else did, would Israel pay any attention to the charges (other than dismissing them angrily and contemptuously)? No.

The United States paid no attention to the World Court's ruling against it over Nicaragua in the 1980's. Same deal. The Russians are not going to answer to anyone for war crimes in Chechenya. Same deal.

There is no tribunal in this world with the strength to make either Israel or the USA listen to them, except maybe one convened by the USA itself, and the USA is not going to do that.

War crimes have been committed by both sides, and will continue to be, I'm sure. So what else is new?

Why were the Allies not charged with war crimes at the end of World War II? Because they won. And they had the power, that's why. (BTW, I am by no means equating Allied war crimes with those greater atrocities which were committed by the Axis, but the Allies did commit war crimes nonetheless...it is virtually inevitable that this happens in war. Either try ALL the guilty participants...or surrender the pretense of exclusive moral superiority that the winners customarily assume over the vanquished.)

I believe that the post which started this thread was intended to do nothing more than suggest: that Israel itself is capable of, and has committed, both terrorism and war crimes...a suggestion which is considered anathema in traditionally pro-Israeli quarters, but which is no more than applying the same rules of conduct to the Israelis which are normally applied to other human beings everywhere.

It's rather like saying, in public, that the king has no clothes on. People in the king's court may have a fit if you say that. They may threaten you with excommunication or call you a racist or accuse you of anti-semitism or satanism or racism or blasphemy (all marvelously potent terms with which to demonize someone)...BUT IF the king indeed is walking around naked, then it is still true to say he has no clothes on, regardless if people have a fit or not when you say it. Regardless of what they call you. This king has no clothes on. This king is standing naked before the world, and virtually the whole world knows it. If the king cannot admit to it, he is either blatantly dishonest, or he is lost in some grand delusion, or he is mad.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:16 PM

I was taught that "research" means a critical examination of primary sources. A careful selection of newspaper articles (which are, at best, secondary sources...if that) is not research.

Much as I hate to say it, if I were on guard someplace, in a combat zone, and a fifteen year old picked up a big rock and was about to throw it at me, I'd probably shoot him. What would the alternative be? Turning the other cheek is an impractical response. Isn't that how David killed Goliath? No, sorry, that was with a small rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:57 PM

Well, Art, if you KNEW it was a rock, that might be a bit harsh. If you were concerned that it might be a hand grenade, aim well.

Carol C: it seems to me that you HAVE done considerable research. Based on the articles you have cited and posted on the forum, though, I would question whether or not you are seeking truth. Rather, it seems to me, your are searching for articles that support your view. No?

Sledge: quit sucking up to Little Hawk. He doesn't know William Shatner personally, and cannot get you an audience with him. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:15 PM

Doug, my point was that a rock will kill you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:15 PM

Well, that's true, Art. Like I said, in war atrocities happen, and are usually (if not always) committed by both sides...and accidents happen too (like the death of 4 Canadians to an American bomb in Afghanistan...a minor affair in my opinion, but you should see the fuss up here about it!) It is when the mainstream media outlets tend to regularly sanitize the actions of one side and regularly demonize the actions of the other, regardless of the available facts, that we have a serious problem.

Israel has gotten a largely free ride on the back of the North American media for at least 5 decades now. The Muslims have never been in that fortunate position, in fact they are almost everyone's favorite whipping boy and boogy monster most of the time. Now that there is a bit of a shift in the tone of news coverage occuring, it's making Israel's traditional supporters very nervous, and they are crying "anti-semitism"...just as O.J.'s lawyers once cried "racism".

It is classic obfuscation of the real issue at hand...which in this case is aggression and terrorism, well-organized, well-planned, ruthlessly carried out...by both sides in the Middle East...not just by one of them.

I hate to see people get away with murder, specially when they play the "victim" all the while, on the basis of someone else's past grievances.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:37 PM

No, DougR, I didn't hold the view I have now until recently. I never in my life thought I would hold the view of the Israeli government that I hold now.

When I first started looking for information, I was trying to find an alternative explanation for the behavior of the Palestinians than the popular idea that they are just hateful and evil. My training in the field of psychology (admittedly all at the undergraduate level) has taught me that destructive behavior has a reason, and when the reason is found, ways can be found to deal with the behavior.

But everywhere I looked, all I could find was hateful language from supporters of the current regime in Israel, and hardly any hateful language from Palestinians. So that made me think that there was more to the situation than we have been told here in the US.

And the more I have looked, the more horrified I have become with what is going on in Israel and Palestine. The first search I did was "Palestinian homeland" + "Jordan". That was where I found the article that made reference to the article by Christopher Hedges. I did a search on "Christopher Hedges" + "children", and I found the name of name of Bet Shalom. I did a search on "Bet Shalom", and I found the piece by Tad Matsui, and the piece by Neta Golan. (And several others that support what they are saying.)

I wanted to find out if there was any substance to what someone said about someone having already found evidence of war crimes in Jenin, so I did a search on "Jenin" + "war crimes", and I found the piece by Amnesty International. And several others, such as the one in the Amnesty International site that talkes about the concientious objectors in Israeli prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:01 PM

Well Carol, I must admit that I do admire your tenacity. You are a good spokesperson for your POV.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:12 PM

Thank you DougR. I'll tell you something. When I first started looking into these things, I was pretty angry. Now, the more I find out, and the more I see people ignoring and denying the evidence staring them in the face, I find that I'm just becoming very, very heartsick for humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:30 PM

Try not to be too surprised by it Carol. You were expecting what? Our own inhumanity.....all of us.....knows no bounds.

Personally, I'm as intereseted in the inhumane feelings that often exist right here so I'm still waiting for an answer from RO1SIN:

If Israeli soldiers are found to have allegedly committed war crimes, why would they NOT be charged and stand trial?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:57 PM

Oh. Well then, silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:57 PM

Nice crack there about Shatner there, Doug! LOL! I am always relieved when humour raises its head in these serious discussions, because it brings us to a common level of humanity, and I appreciate your general attitude even though we may not always agree on the political stuff.

Like Carol, my views have changed a lot over the years. I remember the 6-Day War (in 1967, was it?)...I was a teenager, curious about the whole situation, with no particular axe to grind. I had to admire "plucky little Israel" for winning so decisively then against so many opponents. Over the years, however, I have grown more and more cynical about the well-oiled machine of high-tech weaponry backed by American dollars that is the mailed fist of Zionism. Their intervention in Lebanon in the 80's was really the last straw, as far as I was concerned, and I think they are suffering from massive hubris, combined with a stunningly arrogant sense of their own presumed innate superiority...racial, cultural, religious, moral, you name it...over the Arabs and Palestinians...over almost anybody, in fact.

I have no problem whatsoever with Jews...my problem is with the nation state of Israel, its politicians and generals, and its expansionist blitzkrieg policy of regional domination.

I also realize that Israel's opponents are equally unscrupulous and dangerous...but they are far weaker, without the backing of a superpower...and the North American press has not been mollycoddling them for the last 40 years and handling them with kid gloves, in order to expiate its unearned guilt for events that happened 57 years or more ago in Nazi Germany.

As for the Arabs, they have been betrayed and sold out by the West ever since the crusades. Remember how hard T.E. Lawrence fought for their nationhood after WWI? Remember how little they got from the victorious Allies? And it's all been for the oil. Britain and America are there strictly for the oil, and the Arabs will cooperate with them...or damned well pay the price.

The present price is endemic poverty, foreign-backed dictatorships, partial occupation by foreign troops, delayed modernization, and daily humiliation on a huge scale. Ask them, and they will tell you all about it, but who in America even bothers to ask? Or to listen? That is the crucible in which Osama Bin Laden was forged, and there are many more like him waiting in the wings.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:08 PM

the point is will they be charged or will the USofA white wash it in some way to Isreals advantage

We the Government should let the Israelis stand on their own two feet

I guess i will begetting a lot of mail saying that I i am anti semitic again

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:10 PM

Actually, you know what Spaw? I think that's an incredibly blase attitude for someone who has been the recipient of so incredibly much of what's good about humanity. Seems like you, of all people, would have some appreciation for the good that can happen when people decide to care about other people, and not just shrug off the misfortunes of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:40 PM

Not blase at all Carol...far from it. That wasn't my point and you are far from silly of course. I have enjoyed and truly appreciated your posts on this thread......I'm not going in for a long explanation but please understand I wasn't "dissing" you in any way....the jab was directed elsewhere. But I will say that man's inhumanity does not ever surprise me....ever.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM

Oh yeah....RO1SIN......Are you saying that you believe they will not be charged because the US won't allow it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:49 PM

Thanks Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:11 PM

Thank you RO1SIN. That's a good, clear answer.
LH, the Arab oil states are wealthy beyond all understanding and if they choose not to share that wealth with their fellows, that's hardly the fault of the US. By what stretch of logic do you think that the US should require Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or the UAE to give money to Jordan or Pakistan?
The Saudis spent several billion dollars to modernize Mecca so that Muslim pilgrims on Haj would have modern facilities. Pakistan -not a wealthy country- spent tens of millions on a Mosque. The Saudis put up some of the money but the bulk came from Pakistan.
If modernization has been delayed, it is largely because the money is being spent for other things. It is just possible that they feel that Mosques are more important than factories.
As for daily humiliation, yes,I can certainly see that. It must really rankle to know that every time they have tried to destroy Israel, they have gotten their tails beaten and the events of the last few weeks have only served to rub salt in the wounds.Yes, the US supports Israel. Can you tell me why we should not?
As for regional expansionistic policies, if Israel wanted them, she would now own Lebanon and Jordan. Israel wants secure, defensible borders and guarantees from the Arab states that she will be left in peace. If she has to hold the Golan and the West Bank and Gaza to do this, then that's what she will do.
As for the crucible that shaped Osama bin Laden, he was born and raised in an atmosphere of wealth and priviledge that people like you and I can only dimly perceive. His conversion from spoiled rich kid to terrorist came through religious experience, not social conscience. He is much less concerned with bettering the lives of his co-religionists than he is in furthering the spread of Islam via the destruction of those whom
HE sees as its enemies i.e. anyone who is not a Muslim.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:09 AM

At the request of mg, who can't load this thread any more, I have started a continuation of this thread. It can be found here...

War crimes - continuing discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:52 AM

troll - I understand what you are saying, for sure, although I would partially disagree with much of it. You are viewing it all through a certain prism, and probably have not read some of the articles I have, representing the more progressive forces in the Muslim community (I'm assuming that you haven't read them...I may be wrong).

Yes, the Arab oil states are extremely wealthy...for the few at the top. One of the reasons why the wealth is not shared with the general populace is this: the USA and Britain have traditionally supported autocratic rule by compliant dictators in many Muslim countries (and elsewhere in the 3rd World too), supplying them with weaponry in return for oil and military bases.

Some examples: Saudia Arabia, Egypt (not for oil, but for other strategic reasons), Kuwait, Pakistan, Indonesia, and until fairly recently, Iraq. Iran when the Shah was in power. There have been some genuine initiatives toward democracy in some of those places from time to time...crushed by people on an unofficial USA payroll.

Britain did the same thing when they were ruling the roost in the Middle East. They talked democracy, supported autocracy and feudalism.

Neither the USA nor the dictators they support have any intention of allowing democracy to develop in those countries. Democratic regimes are way too hard to control. (When they do arise of their own accord, as happened in Chile and Nicaragua and began to happen once in Iran, they are ruthlessly destroyed by whatever means possible...a war, a coup, an assassination, an economic blow, whatever it takes.)

The Saudi government spends millions on religious facilities...yes...to distract its people and keep them in line while a few rich people live like emperors...in collusion with their rich western friends who own the multinationals. They get together in places like Monaco and Paris and gamble or play polo. A lovely time is had by all. The building of more religious facilities is a cynical exercise, meant to shore up popular support, and it works...for a while.

It is precisely because collusion between the West and the local sheiks and bully boys have rendered the development of local democracy impossible that fanatical Islamic revolutions have occurred, like that in Iran. The common people see it as the only avenue left to them to institute change and achieve real national sovereignty. This further imperils the chances of liberalizing and modernizing those societies, and is a great tragedy for the Islamic moderates who dream of achieving a peaceful, progressive, modern society. There are many such moderates, but you don't hear much about them on the news, because they aren't killing people.

Is there any reason why the USA should not support Israel? Well, sure there is...a host of reasons. The USA should not support either aggressor in this useless conflict, they should show no favoritism at all, but bring all possible influence to end the fighting by negotiation and equivalent concessions from both sides, and by not arming or funding the combatants on either side. This, of course, would be VERY bad for business, so it absolutely ain't gonna happen! It would likely also help lead to the collapse of several compliant Arab regimes in fairly short order...it's US supplied armaments that keep them in power.

Yes, the Arabs have been beaten badly again and again...but they might well have won in 1973, had not the USA massively resupplied Israel with new tanks in a matter of a few days. This is not lost on the Arabs. They had to go it alone. Israel did not.

Israel has precisely the advantage in battle that a thoroughly modernized military has over a half-modernized one every time. I've played very accurate simulations of many Middle Eastern battles with tanks, etc....the Arab armies are so technologically outclassed by both the USA and Israel that all they can do, generally speaking, is show that they know how to die bravely. This is what has happened again and again when colonial European forces, a generation or 2 ahead of their opponents in the techniques of war, slaughtered Africans, Asians, or Arabs with more advanced weaponry. It's not really something to be particularly proud of...it's rather like shooting fish in a barrel. This is why you see suicide bombers these days. They feel it is the only way they can strike back effectively and do real damage. For them to fight openly with tanks, etc. is basically suicidal in any case, just as it was for the Japanese after 1943, which is why they too adopted planned suicide tactics on a large scale.

The Arabs are not going to stop fighting unless they are all killed, and that is not going to happen...or until there is real substantial negotiation and positive change in the status quo...give and take on both sides. Israel is not particularly interested in that, because they figure they have the power to get what they want by force. They may change their minds if the suicide bombings continue indefinitely.

I agree that Israel wants and needs defensible borders, and I understand that concern, particularly as regards the Golan heights. I think that those areas should be demilitarised and strongly occupied for at least a generation (or longer than that, if necessary) by not Israel but a multinational peacekeeping force of well-armed soldiers from neutral countries...but Israel would not hear of it...(nor, perhaps would the Arabs) and the world community is too probably too fractured to agree on how to do it anyway. Too bad. The fighting will go on until something like that is done or until there's a nuclear conflict and everybody in the region gets fried.

If Israel was not expansionist, they would not be putting Israeli settlements into various of the occupied areas. Sounds like "lebensraum" to me....remember that? It's on a much smaller scale of course...but the intention is rather similar, I think. "We took this land, so let's use it. Well, now that we live here, we aren't leaving. Too bad for you!" That's expansionist. The same thing happened in America with the Indian lands. They were also outgunned.

Lastly, Osama Bin Laden was a rich kid...yes. So? So was Fidel Castro. Most of Castro's rich family repudiated him and fled to Florida when he threw out the Mafia and the multinationals and divided the land up among the farmers who had worked it for generations, on a starvation wage. Why did he do that when he was already a rich kid with a guaranteed easy life at the top of the heap?

Well, it happens. Rich people are not necessarily immune to acquiring social ideals, and some of them become fervent revolutionaries despite putting themselves in personal danger and risking losing everything. Washington and Jefferson did. It often happens. What is so surprising that it happened in Bin Laden's case? His religious viewpoint is his form of social conscience. You don't agree with it. I doubt that I do either. But for him, it is a high ideal that is synonymous with having a social conscience. He was an exception to the rule among his peer group. Most of his foot soldiers come from the poor, and I trust that most of his rich relatives have disinherited him. He is a noble who decided to opt out of the club...and that is unforgivable when you're in that club, I believe, but it still happens. Revolutions are often led by the sons of the rich, because rich people have the time and the educational opportunities to read in depth, to think, to philosophize, and to develop theoretical passions and ideals of every kind...if they are so inclined. A few of them always are. Buddha was the son of a king. He chose complete renunciation of all that luxury and privilege, and launched a philosophical revolution that changed the world.

But the real key to all of this is that the West (and Russia as well) have pursued foreign policies which pretty well guaranteed that democracy would have no chance of developing in the oil-producing countries, but that they would remain obedient clients of Big Business, ruled by autocrats, and keep their poor people superstitious, helpless, poor and oppressed.

It is precisely that which has led to the rise of ever more fanatical and dangerous muslim religious extremists. The West sometimes has used those extremists to fight its dirty wars in places like Afghanistan in the 80's...but later discovered that the scorpion they created will not stay quietly in its box.

It's a long, twisted, and sad story. Power has been served. Money has been served. Privilege has been served. Business has been served. Democracy has never been served. There are no good guys among the major players in this Middle Eastern fiasco. Not one. They all have the blood and misery of millions on their hands.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 01:13 PM

troll

huh