twinkle twinkle

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: beeliner
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:09 AM

Twinkle twinkle little bat,
How I wonder where you're at.
Up above the world so high,
Like a tea tray in the sky.

It's actually "...what you're at."

On Steeeleye Span's recording, from Now we Are Six, "tea tray" can be barely heard under 'diamond'.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:18 PM

The waywe learned it from our English teacher:

Instead of the line given above: U V DoubleU X Y Zed we sang: U and DoubleU behind the V, X and Y and Z, oh glee; yes, that is my ABC.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 04:08 PM

I learned: Now I know my ABCs
Tell what you think of me!

scholars bicker... ;>)

We DO tend to get locked into the first version of anything we learn..

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM

I've known it with these words for lo, these many moons years:

A B C D E F G
H I J K lmno P
Q and R S T U V
Double U and X Y Zee
Now I've sung my ABC
Next time won't you sing with me?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Monique
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 03:02 PM

Youtube and old German score

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 02:48 PM

The rhyme-scheme in German should be the same. In best 'Teach Yourself' tradition:-

Ah Bay C(tsay) Day Eh efF Gay
Hah Ee Jot Kah lmno Pay
Q(koo) und erR und esS und Tay
U V(fow) W(vay) X(iks) Ypsilon tZet

There is the minor point that the last line of the tune is missing! I don't know the song but I suspect that U to Z are divided over two lines with various conjunctions thrown in.Still doesn't rhyme at the end though!

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Mo the caller
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 10:33 AM

Looking at it, the lines have to end with G, P, and T to give it a rhyme. Does this mean it was American originally with 4 rhyming lines? What is the rhyme-scheme in German?

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Mo the caller
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 10:29 AM

Several years up-thread it was stated that this was also a German alphabet song. Not just german, I remember singing it in London (1940s)
A B C D E F G
H I J K lmno P
Q and R and S and T
U V DoubleU X Y Zed
The lmno was semiquavers, not sure about the 3rd line, we made it scan somehow.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 09:41 PM

Pete Seeger, on one of his records (I forget which), mentions a fair number of songs to this tune, including "When I first came to this land" and (from a highly decorated Central European version) "Hatikva".

One of my college textbooks offered the boast

    Twinkle, twinkle, little star:
    Now I'll know just what you are
    When into the midnight sky
    I my spectroscope apply.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 09:06 PM

I learned it this way in grade school:

Scintillate, scintillate, apparently Lilliputian orb!
Interrogatively, I question your constituent elements.
In your prodigious altitude above the terrestrial sphere,
Similar to a carbonaceous, isometric, octahedral specimen!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 03:52 PM

From Wikipedia>>>>> Baa, Baa, Black Sheep is an English nursery rhyme, sung to a variant of the 1761 French melody Ah ! vous dirai-je, Maman. The original form of the tune is used for Twinkle Twinkle Little Star <<<<<<

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 03:23 PM

A quick resurrection job here:

There is also a swedish school childrens song to this tune.

"När vi sitta i v°ar bänk" (Sundberg:Folkskolans s°angbok 1882)


Basically, it's all about how to be little goodies...........

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 02:48 AM

STARKLE, STARKLE, LITTLE TWINK

Starkle, starkle little twink
What the heck you are, I think.
I'm not under the affluence of incohol,
Although some thinkle peep I am,
It's just the drunker I stand the longer I get.

Lynn, Frank:
Song for singin' / by Frank Lynn. - San Francisco, Calif. : Chandler Publ. Coy. , 1961. - pg. 145
Library of Congress Card Catalog Number M61-1036

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: masato sakurai
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:44 AM

Thanks, Nigel. I didn't check on the book; I have three editions of it.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:36 AM

Weirdly, a variant is also used as the tune for the Welsh version of Seven Drunken Nights.

sian

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:35 AM

Wyrd Sister: Scintillate, Scintillate attributed to John Raymond Carson (or at least, copyright claimed!) at this site

Nigel

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:30 AM

Just a slight correction of Masato on 22 April. The character in "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" is referred to throughout as "the Hatter", and whilst he was clearly disturbed, the name "Mad Hatter" is a common misnomer.

Nigel

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: IanC
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 06:41 AM

I prefer Spike Milligan's
Twinkle, twinkle little star
Now I know just what you are
You'r an empty rocket case
A rubbish tip in outer space

but here's another ...

Twinkle, twinkle little star
I don't wonder what you are,
For by spectroscopic ken
I know that you are hydrogen
(D. Bush "Science & English Poetry" Oxford University Press, 1950)

:-)

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: masato sakurai
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 05:34 AM

"Ah! Vous dirais-je, maman" sung by Eva Gauthier (1919, RCA Victor 72166)

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Haruo
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

Pretty sure the Sumerians already had both tunes (though their texts were not related to what we sing to them now). Some of the markings on the walls and ceilings of caves in southern France, though, clearly notate Frère Jacques.

Olduvai, though. That must be the Oldest. (Is there another gorge near by, the Newduvai, that they use to find less archaic specimens?)

Liland

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 07:51 AM

I read in National Geographic that Richard Leakey has found a scratched stone in the Olduvai Gorge, and the scratches represent the tune (but not the words) of this song.

As usual in the world of paleoanthropology, other experts disagree. They say the tune represented is Happy Birthday.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Haruo
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 06:11 PM

See also this thread:

Lyr Add: Twinkle, twinkle little star

for inter alia Gaelic, Esperanto, Latin, Tlingit and Japanese versions and another misophist offering under the incipit "Starkle, starkle". Also of note is Dicho's link to a well-designed presentation of Mozart's Variations.

Maybe someday Joe will combine the threads?

Liland

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 04:09 PM

Cheers!

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 02:16 PM

Soooo interesting! Thanks, Jeanie.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:02 AM

This thread is a wonderful example of everything I like about the Forum - even a routine sounding title can lead to the most unexpected discoveries.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 04:40 AM

In Germany the tune is still used for some childrens' songs, e.g. Morgen kommt der Weihnachtsmann (tomorrow Sta Claus will bring his gifts) and the Alphabet song (A B C D E F G ...). There also is an old bawdy student drinking song to this tune about a German knight drinking bitter with his henchmen.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Jeanie
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:50 AM

If the above has got anyone interested in finding out more about the story behind "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star", Jane Taylor and her family: there's *loads* !

My delving into it all started rather spookily: On holiday on Suffolk, my then two-year old daughter was asked by the pianist in a posh restaurant (my mum and dad were treating !)if she had any requests - and she said she'd like him to play "Twinkle Star" - one of her favourites. I'd never given a second thought to where the song came from - but it turned out, as he told us, it had been written in Lavenham, where we were staying. Spooky(-ish).

Jane Taylor and her sister Anne were daughters of a non-conformist minister, who was also a trained artist and engraver - and who taught his skills to the two daughters. They were encouraged to write from a very early age, and first had pieces published in the 18th century equivalent of a children's comic. They both went on to be widely-published authors, mainly of children's literature and hymns.

If you visit Lavenham you can see Shilling Grange, the house (and attic window) from which Jane wrote the poem, when aged 12. Photo on: www.frazier.freewire.co.uk/shillinggrange.htm

Lavenham (for those who don't know it) is a beautifully preserved medieval town that gained its wealth from the wool trade. If any American Catters are planning to visit the UK - do visit the place.

There's a small exhibition about the Taylor family in the Lavenham Guildhall.If you are really into social history, the memoirs of Jane and her sister are a fascinating picture of the 18th/19th century life. You can find them on: www.digital.library.upenn.edu/women/taylor/memoirs/memoirs.html (for Jane) and the same website for Anne, but with "autobiography" in place of "memoirs".

Worth looking at - more of her poems are also on those sites, and drawings.

- Jeanie

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 08:16 PM

Ditto! Masato, you are truly amazing! T H A N K Y O U!!!

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:24 PM

Masato, you are truly amazing......As usual, a job well done!!

Spaw

Subject: Origins: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:09 PM

"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" was written by Jane Taylor (b. London, 1783; d. Ongar, Essex, 1824). It was published first under the title "The Star", and appeared in her Rhymes for the Nursery (London, 1806, p. 10). "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Bat" is a parody by Mad Hatter in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. The information is from Fuld's book (p. 594) and the Opies' The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, new ed. (Oxford, 1997, p. 474).

~Masato

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 03:56 PM

Scintillate, scintillate, globule vivific,

Fain would I fathom thy nature specific.

Daintily poised in the ether capacious

Strongly resembling the gem carbonaceous..

Sorry, don't know who wrote this. Suggestions? And any others?

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:46 PM

Thanks for the background of the music, you knowledgable people. How did the words "Twinkle, twinkle" develop?

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:45 AM

Twinkle twinkle little bat,
How I wonder where you're at.
Up above the world so high,
Like a tea tray in the sky.

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:57 AM

Lyrics to "Ah ! Vous dirai-je, Maman" are HERE, HERE, and at many other sites. Mozart composed "12 Variations on 'Ah vous dirai-je, maman'"; the score is HERE. Hungarian-born Dohonanyi also composed Variations on a Nursery Song, using this melody in 1913 (Click here (pdf file) for information, with lyrics & brief song history).

~Masato

Subject: Origins: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:09 AM

"This melody was first known as Ah! Vous Dirai-Je, Maman, the music of which appeared (without words) in 1761 in Les Amusements d'une Heure et Demy by Mr. Bouin (Paris). The words and music appear in a manuscript entitled Recueil de Chansons about 1765 under the title Le Faux Pas, p. 43." (James J. Fuld, The Book of World-Famous Music, 4th ed., p. 593) Mozart's variations on this melody were published in 1785.

~Masato

Subject: RE: twinkle twinkle
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:20 AM

IIRC Mozart wrote variations on "Ah, que dirai-je, Maman?", which is a French folksong which uses the tune.

But as to where the tune originally came from ...

WassaiL! V

Subject: twinkle twinkle
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:06 AM

Please clarify for me who wrote the music for Twinkle Twinkle Little Star/Baa Baa Black Sheep/ABC Song. I thought it was Mozart but have been told it is a French folk song. If so, how did Mozart come into it? Thanks.