BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?

Subject: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 02:10 PM

(cookiless) Starting anew thread because the old one's getting too long. Hope a clever computer person can do a clicky to connect them up

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 03:26 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 05:01 PM

Here's the other thread

Jigs *are* traditionally (and still) used in New England-style contra dancing.

There's variation (somewhat regional) in the appearance of jigs at contra dances now that it's an early 21st century, pan-North American thing, due to the adaptation of old-time Appalachian style tunes to the dance form and the invasion of the southern square dance scene by contra dancing. (Old-time Appalachian tunes don't naturally necessarily fit well with contra dancing, but as the dances and the playing have evolved in the past 30 years, they've come together.) A contra dance band that specializes in Appalachian style tunes may not play jigs because the fiddler doesn't do them (is this a circular discussion, or what??).

So, Claymore, Russ & Kim, I'd say that your contra dancing experience doesn't entirely reflect the New England contra dance tradition and its relationship to jigs.

Also, what Ken Perlman does with a five-string banjo doesn't necessarily have much to do with five-string banjo traditions, either. He's been a master of adapting and developing playing techniques that fit more northern-style tunes, such as jigs. Greg, Here's an essay (from an Englishman) comparing the American and English dance styles/scenes.

On the bounce factor: over the past 30 years of the contra dance revival, the styles of dance choreography and music have changed from a more up and down or back and forth type of movement and rhythm, to a smoother drive and more circular, flowing movement. (Skipping may always have been frowned upon, though!) Contra dances and their music 30 years ago (or even 15 to 20 years ago) were very clearly phrased. A contra dancer could complain about old-time tunes by saying, "We want dance music, not trance music". That would be a rare complaint today. You hear more old-time tunes (though the repertoire leans toward the slightly more clearly-phrased ones), and when jigs are played by a contemporary-sounding contra dance band (Wild Asparagus, Hillbilles from Mars, Old Sod Band), they are most often played very smoothly and lyrically.

In Tucson, Arizona, we have three local contra dance bands, with three different fiddlers: one southern old-time style (no jigs), one more Irish-style (though with somewhat smoothed out jigs), one more New England-trad/eclectic style (the banjo player switches to his accordion for the jigs!).

Sorry for contributing to the thread drift, but the questions were raised!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 05:07 PM

Oh, piffle. What happened to the links??

The other thread.

Greg, here's one Englishman's comparison of American and English dancing.

Some days I've got it, some days I don't!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 05:13 PM

Aargh! I was working from memory on the HTML and put in extraneous slashes. Here's one more try on the links:

Here's the other jigs/fiddlers thread.

Here's the UK/US dance comparison page.

I should write myself a new yellow sticky HTML cheat sheet...

~ Becky

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 07:20 PM

Manitas has said that it also can be the case with Irish music. I've heard of these reel only Irish sessions but have yet to go to one like that. My regular session in Norwich pretty much alternates between reels and jigs but even that largely forgets hornpipes, slides, polkas, etc.

I'll throw a thought in from the "Irish" session view and risk getting flamed... There are times that it seems to me that reels are regarded as the difficult tunes (a contrast to my thoughts regarding jigs and 5 string banjo perhaps being difficult) and the "better players" like to be seen to be playing the better or more demanding tunes. On the other hand, there are many polkas that are really easy to pick up and play. Perhaps their accessibility can get them cut out as perhaps is the case with hornpipes such as Harvest Home....

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 07:28 PM

Morris dance tunes seem to be fairly evenly distributed between 6/8 and 4/4 (or 2/4 or 2/2) tunes: there are even a couple of tunes with variants in each time-sig. But with both jigs and reels there are only two main beats to the bar and the 1 and 3 of 1-2-3-hop coincide with the beats.

Most morris dancers would probably not be aware whether they were dancing to a jig or a reel (but the musicians would know).

But then we don't have many banjos playing for morris - boxes, fiddles, whistles, even brass, but nothing picked or strummed.

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Charcloth
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 11:09 PM

I was asked earlier about putting two index finger pluckings back to back & why not continue alternating the index finger & thumb. It is simple. As was stated above a jig's accent is on beats one & three (or as I count out "1","&", "a","two","&" it is on beats "one" "two")
you simply can't get those beats strong if you just simply alternate the index & thumb. A guitar picker has to make similar changes as he has to pick, DOWN, up, down, DOWN, up, down etc. I hope this clarifys things Charcloth

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:49 AM

Jon, the trouble with your suggestion is that people don't even TRY to play the polkas when they are started off by someone else. I don't think they find them as easy as you might think. I'm sure it's just some kind of blind spot rather than a disdain for certain types of tune.

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 02:58 PM

Refreshing this to get it top of the list:people are still posting to the first half of the thread and I cant read it and its very frustrating!

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:01 PM

Here's the Blue Clicky to Part 1 of the thread.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:07 PM

In the other thread, I tried to put up a table illustrating how the basic clawhammer index/thumb playing technique could be reversed so that the thumb would play on the downbeat. This is an old-time playing technique that the Minstrels used. But somehow Mudcat wouldn't allow the use of certain unidentified HTML codes.

Anyhow reversing the lead finger rather makes it sound like the banjo player is fingerpicking. I found this technique in Tom Briggs' 1858 banjo instruction book. I think the book is still available from Elderly Instruments as a reprint.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:19 PM

when i finger-pick jigs on the guitar I play TITTIT, which is the same as what most people do with flat picks on guitar or tenor banjo for 6/8. Leading with your finger on a 5-string is never going to get the beat you want, I should imagine: you'll get the notes, but it won't come out so jiggy. Lead with your thumb, it does the work for you. Mexican 6/8 is another thing, by the way: I'm only talking about the British/Irish traditions.

Subject: RE: BS: P2Why don't old-time fiddlers play jigs?
From: Charcloth
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:48 AM

greg, I hate to disagree with you, but the strong beat with frailing is always made with the index finger. I don't know about Scruggs Style & I ain't saying it can't be done your way, but typically, with frailing (clawhammer style - what ever you want to call it)the strong "down" beats is as I said,done with the index (or Middle) finger. I do reinforce my index finger though, in that I support it with my thumb, as if I were holding a flat pick.