Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?

Subject: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 02 May 02 - 03:25 PM

This song has been on my mind all evening, and I wonder if it is really a Civil War period song, or if it was written at a later date. Couldn't find any information on it, don't even have a "gut feeling" about how old it could really be. Anyone there who knows exactly?

Thanks!!!!

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: MMario
Date: 02 May 02 - 03:27 PM

Maudlin - which Civil War?

And could we have some lyrics? or a link to lyrics to make sure we're all talking about the same song?

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 02 - 03:35 PM

Go to Cruel War
Obviously a new composition, but elements of the tune used are reminiscent of a couple of old songs.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 02 - 03:44 PM

Easiest one I've ever found. At the top of Google's list. And chords, too!
Contemplator and Barry Taylor trace it to an old English tune: Cruel War
Dang! now the tune is stuck in my head. Listen to the midi on Contemplator- very good!

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 02 - 04:01 PM

The words (two sets) on Contemplator are completely different from those of the first (new) version that I posted. It looks like the song has a long history, but many different lyrics. The Traditional Ballad Index lists it under "The Girl Volunteer," a title applied by Laws.
Vance Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 1, lists it as "Johnny Must Fight" and says: " This piece is related to the "Jackie Fraisure" and "Wars of Germany" songs which are printed elsewhere in this book under the title "Men's Clothes I Will Put on." Compare the "Oh, No!, No! song reported by Ord ....from the north of Scotland." Sharp reports it from the southern Appalachians ("The Warfare is Raging"). He also refers to Belden and the song he lists with the title "Lisbon."
This song, in one or more of its guises, is probably in the DT and discussed in the Forum.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 02 May 02 - 04:04 PM

I have a Pete Steele recording from 1958 of "The war is raging for Jonny". Same song as was later made popular by P.P.&M. but some differences in melody and words. I don't have it here but I think the lyrics are in the liner notes. I'll check when I get home. My tape came from Smithsonian Folkways. Sounds like the civil war to me.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 02 - 04:20 PM

These in the DT:
Cruel War
High Germany
Wars of Germany
Jackaro (Jackie Frazer)
Lisbon
And probably more in the Forum.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: MMario
Date: 02 May 02 - 04:22 PM

So would date back to English Civil War and probably a revival during the 'War between the States'

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 02 - 09:48 PM

Mmario, see thread 22617. High Germany and also DT. Some interesting comments.
It looks like this song is early 18C and has been made over to suit other wars as they came along- like many another good song idea.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 02 May 02 - 11:28 PM

Sorry I couldn't come back earlier, but you got to sleep sometimes :-)MMario, sorry, should have thought of posting some lyrics, stupid me. I did mean the song popularized by Peter, Paul & Mary, the one which is also in the Digitrad. So if I understand correctly it's an adaptation of an older song - but, in that version, definitely modern.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Genie
Date: 03 May 02 - 12:26 AM

There is at least one lengthy discussion of this song and its history in the forum. here

Genie

It seems there is also a different American Civil War song with a similar title but different lyrics and tune.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 May 02 - 12:00 PM

One of my favorite variations was one sung by Obray Ramsey of North Carolina in which the chorus ran:

I'll cook for you, Johney,
I'll wash all your clothes;
Oh, take me with you, Johney,
For you know I love you so.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 03 May 02 - 03:28 PM

I thought it was American Civil War vintage until I found lyrics mentioning Guineas which is british currency. I rather thought it was Napoleonic era after that but You have intrigued me with the English Civil War theory. Kindeest regards, neil

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 May 02 - 04:47 PM

I couldn't find the following in the DT. It has some aspects of a variation on Cruel War.

Wish the Wars Were All Over
Down by deep water where sweet linden stand
I saw pretty Polly wringing her hands
The song that she sung made the whole grove to ring
My Billy has left me to fight for a king
And I wish the wars were all over

I stood in amaze to hear what she said
I'll follow my Billy whether living or dead
The notes that she sung were the nightingale's notes
How the lark and the linnet they warble their throats
And I wish the wars were all over

I said my dear Polly if you'll stay with me
I'll make you as happy as happy can be
No then she said that never can be
I'll never be happy til my Billy I see
And...

Now from my parents I'll haste and away
I'll dress myself out in a young man's array
And every company that I pass by
I'll ask for my Billy or where he does lie
And...

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 03 May 02 - 05:35 PM

Lonesome EJ - is that Tim Erikson's? He says he made the tune and compiled the words from various sources.

Here are a couple of Ballad Index entries on the Cruel War type of song (you can see by the cross references that there are more than these two sets). When it says "earliest date", that's defined as "The earliest date at which we could verify, from print or manuscript, that the ballad was in circulation; obviously this is subject to correction."

We'll see how my HTML prettyifying attempts work.

~ Becky in Tucson

Girl Volunteer, The [Laws O33]

DESCRIPTION: (Johnny) has been ordered off to war. His sweetheart begs to go with him. He refuses her; military service would fade her beauty. She offers to buy his release; this too fails. (In some versions Johnny relents and allows her to come.)
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1916
KEYWORDS: war soldier separation love cross-dressing
FOUND IN: US(Ap,SE,So)
REFERENCES (6 citations):
Laws O33, "The Girl Volunteer"
Randolph 44, "Johnny Must Fight" (2 texts, 2 tunes)
Combs/Wilgus 109, pp. 178-179, "I'm Going to Join the Army" (1 text)
Silber-FSWB, p. 272, "The Cruel War Is Raging" (1 text)
Darling-NAS, pp. 131-132, "May I Go With You, Johnny?" (1 text)
DT 487, CRUELWAR* CRUELWR2*
RECORDINGS:
Pete Steele, "The War Is A-Ragin' For Johnny" (on PSteele01)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Manchester Angel"
cf. "Jack Monroe" [Laws N7]
cf. "William and Nancy I" [Laws N8]
cf. "The Banks of the Nile (Men's Clothing I'll Put On II)" [Laws N9]
cf. "High Germany"
ALTERNATE TITLES:
The Cruel War
Notes: The Combs version of this song contains a reference to Pensacola -- the port from which many American troops set out for Cuba during the Spanish-American war (1898). The song is clearly much older than that, however. - RBW
File: LO33

William and Nancy (I) (Lisbon; Men's Clothing I'll Put On I) [Laws N8]

DESCRIPTION: (William) has been ordered to war. His sweetheart (Nancy) offers to dress in men's clothes and accompany him. William says that Nancy is not strong enough; she assures him she will be. At last he agrees; they are married and go off together
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1904
KEYWORDS: separation cross-dressing marriage war
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MA,MW,SE,So) Britain(England(South)) Canada(Newf) Ireland
REFERENCES (8 citations):
Laws N8, "William and Nancy (I) (Lisbon; Men's Clothing I'll Put On I)"
Randolph 42, "Men's Clothing I'll Put On" (Of Randolph's six texts, Laws puts only B, D, and E -- the last with melody -- with this song. In fact any of these versions -- especially B and E -- might be part of "The Banks of the Nile." "A" definitely goes with that piece, and C and F go with "Jack Monroe")
FSCatskills 29, "It Was Early One Monday Morning" (1 text, 1 tune)
Sharp/Karpeles-80E 34, "William and Polly (Lisbon)" (1 text, 1 tune, "slightly shortened")
Vaughan Williams/Lloyd, pp. 58-59, "Lisbon" (1 text, 1 tune)
SHenry H561, p. 458, "Lovely Annie (I)" (1 text, 1 tune)
BBI, ZN1749, "Margaret my sweetest, Margaret I must go" (listed as Laws N4 though the description sounds more like this piece)
DT 442, BANKNIL4 (BANKNIL2*?) BANKNIL3*
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Jack Monroe" [Laws N7]
cf. "The Banks of the Nile (Men's Clothing I'll Put On II)" [Laws N9]
cf. "High Germany"
cf. "Johnny Must Fight (The Cruel War is Raging)"
File: LN08

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 May 02 - 05:43 PM

DD...yep, that's Tim's. I hadn't heard any background on it, and thought it was completely trad. I would be interested to hear Eriksen's comments.

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 03 May 02 - 06:02 PM

E.J.: Tim Erikson says (about "I Wish the Wars Were All Over"):

It sometimes seems like the best words have been worn out through use, and I'm reluctant to tire them further. Then, Sometimes, the simplest and most exhausted words and themes appear in a light that pierces. There's something in this song.

Last summer I had a very clear and terrifying vision of being forced to choose between my life and the life of a friend - being forced to identigy along some line we might never have though of before - the religions of our grandparents for example. Do you know the religion of your friends' grandparents? Do you think about it a lot? The song's stock characters and lack of specifics are real in ways contemporary writings on war rarely are, for all their titillating detail. Newspapers say horror is "out there" happening to "them." I think this song says "it's here."

I made the tune, and made the words out of scraps, the biggest of which is, again, from Connor. I spent more time trying to write about it than I did recording the whole CD.

---

On the cd "Tim Eriksen" Appleseed Recordings, 2001. The Connor he refers to is "a manuscript of favorite popular songs written down by an American named Timothy Connor while he was imprisoned in Plymouth, England, during the Revolution."

Web site about the cd is here. ~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song?
From: GUEST,peterbenson
Date: 03 May 02 - 06:33 PM

Also sounds like 'High Germany'

"Oh Polly, dearest Polly, the route has just begun...