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BS: Are Americans 'insular'?
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Subject: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Keith Dance Date: 13 May 02 - 06:24 AM I know that some of you might consider this an 'anti American' flame, especially because I'm posting as a Guest. It isn't, and I only post as a guest because the sysop here has disabled cookies. Anyway, back to what I'm curious about: As an observer from the UK, I think it would be fair to say that Americans consider themselves the centre of the world. Indeed, this can be seen time and again in posts here. People asking for advice where location matters (i.e. where to find a guitar shop, how to find a map for a certain location etc.) differ. Those from the UK, Australia, wherever, tend to explain where they are. Those from the USA seem to take it as a gien that they live in the USA. Before anyone gets mad, this is simply an observation, not a judgement. So, finally, my question: After the 9/11 atrocities, there was the thought (at least here) that the USA might start to think more globally and not focus so much on itself. Has this happened in any noticable way? Thanks for any thoughts Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: KingBrilliant Date: 13 May 02 - 06:34 AM No No, surely UK is the centre of the world. That's how it seems to me, anyway. :>) KRis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 06:48 AM No American thinks they are the centre of the world. The center of the world, maybe! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: pict Date: 13 May 02 - 06:59 AM Why do Americans spell those words differently given that there was a pre existing English spelling it seems like it's simply a conscious effort to be different.It's not a bash I'm simply curious as to why those deliberate changes were made e.g. colour/color etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 13 May 02 - 07:02 AM Color is simpler than Colour That's why it suits the Americans! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:06 AM Hmmmm.... well, check out the post, "Rape", rather typical of my songs, which tend to be global, and written here in New York... but than again, the sun never sets on the British Empire, God doesn't trust them in the dark! Alternately, The sun never sets on the British Empire... it can't find it anymore... Well, finaly, I agree, it is rediculous for Americans to be insular, where the hell do they think they live, New York ! Yours frateraly, from the belly button of the Universe, THE city God's Country The only place to starve... Still coughing on the grey dust of indifference Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 13 May 02 - 07:09 AM That doesn't explain 'fawcet' and 'tap' then does it! Having visited the US I did find it a little odd at first that the apparant knowledge of Europe in particular was sketchy. But then I realised that my knowledge of American geography, politics etc was equaly vague. I think it's simply a distance thing. My 2 pen'urth anyway. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 07:09 AM Nicely ambigous there, Guest. If this site is to believed, it was very much just to be different - although there was a great interest in the UK at the same time in simplifying the written language. Much later, George Bernard Shaw made the same kind of points, arguing the case that, for example "ghoti" could be pronounced "fish" based on cough, women and nation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:10 AM Hiya guys, please place a question mark before the ! in the sentence, where do they think they are New York... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:18 AM Besides, we have a town here named "Jackass Flats", it is in Nevada, appropriatly near to the nuclear test site at Los Alamos. Should a nation with a town called Jackass Flats, home to guys who build machines which are intended to destroy all life on earth, not have an insular attitude, Fucksake man, how could they get their job done, if they thought globaly!? Go over to Greenham Commons to get the answer to that one boyo! Look, anynation which drills holes in the front of the row boat because they are in the stern, and they want to sink the end with the guy on it they don't like, well hell, didn't we learn that as part of our English commonlaw tradition? I dunnoh, how can I, It is hard to see the rest of the world when you are living on top of the mountain. Or whould ya rather be a duck? woof Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:20 AM On a serrious note, the Birmingham Bomber Cherry goes on trial today... On Birmingham Sunday, a noise shook the ground and people all over the world turned around For no one recalled a more cowardly sound and the choir kept singing of freedom... and do check out my new song on the post titled Rape. and the choir keeps singing of freedom... Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:24 AM American insular? ... hmmmmm... um.... well... ah... (flipping through the dictionary looking for the word insular......) Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:26 AM Americans INSUALR! Well! Look here you Lime eating BRIT! If ya don't like it, stop drinking Coke and Budwiezer! AND STOP WEARING OUR DAMN BASEBALL HATS! YA DON't EVEN PLAY THE GAME Larry being that irony is seldom expected from this side of the puddle, I should point out I am only kidding, do check out me new song.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:28 AM Hey I am having fun... where are the rest of you guys! Where is Spaw when you need him!? Wake up Buba! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 07:32 AM LOL, InOBU. Or, being British myself, a slight tremble of the upper lip!
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 07:44 AM Hey DMcG! Can I send you a real British cloth cap! It has a "Made in the USA" lable, which means it was actualy made by an 11 year old kid in Hong Kong, so it really IS or was British... Hmmmmmmmm kinda makes you think, if you don't think so, check out the look on Noah Webster's face, he is either thinking of this, or just ate something REALLY foul! Cheersm'dears, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 07:48 AM Time for some music from Alex Glasgow
If you every go to Tyneside, let me give you some advice
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 13 May 02 - 07:53 AM As an American, yes I believe many (though not all by any stretch of the imagination) are insular. But having lived both sides the pond, I wouldn't say they are any more or less insular than the British or the Irish. People tend to view the world through the lens of their homeplace first. If you have travelled far and wide, you are likely not very insular at all. If you are deeply rooted to your home and have travelled little, you are likely insular, no matter where in the world you are from. I think what you are really getting at is are Americans as arrogant about their insularity as the British perceive them to be? My answer is, I think British and American arrogance about their nationalisms are pretty equal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 07:59 AM Welcome to the dialog(ue) Guest. (see, I'm not insular, I'm bilingual) You are right I think. In fact, it can be very much more extreme. When I moved from the North East of England to the South, some people thought I had 'betrayed' them in some obscure way and one person became very aggressive demanding to know what was wrong with the area. Leaving it was clearly equivalent to finding fault with it in his eyes.
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 13 May 02 - 08:01 AM Well, there is a lot of animosity towards leaving the homeplace amongst those who never leave, and that is pretty universal I think. In England, Scotland, and Wales you can add to that the resentment over the youth migrating to the larger cities to find work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 08:05 AM Americans, or even that subset of Americans who happen to live in the US, are, by definition, "continental". Guess who that makes "insular"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 08:18 AM Tricky things, words, aren't they? Now "continental", in the UK, was even more insulting than "insular" not very long ago. It NEVER referred to the States to us, in meant Europe, with all the years of distain only a history like ours can accumulate! Now "continental" usually only means an inferior breakfast! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 08:25 AM When "continental" meant "French", to people in the US it meant suave and sophisticated. Or maybe it meant skinny little mustaches and slicked-down hair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Mrrzy Date: 13 May 02 - 08:33 AM The Americans are just like the French: they KNOW they have the best country, the best people, the best food, and the best language! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 13 May 02 - 08:46 AM Hi, INOBU! Is New York City insular? I lived there four years and reached the point where it seemed like if the subway didn't go there, it didn't exist. I remember when I first came to New York City in 1960, there was a photo in one of the New York papers that had the caption, "Kennedy visits the Midwest." The photograph was taken in Pennsylvania! For you folks across the sea, Pennsylvania is only two states away... you can drive to Philadelphia in two and a half hours. But, the caption made sense in New York City. the Midwest is as unknown as central Europe. When my wife and I go out to Wisconsin and we tell people we know around here in Connecticut (we live an hour and a half drive from New York City) many of them have no idea where Wisconsin is other than it's out there in the Midwest, somewhere. (it's pretty much in the center of the country and the western border of Wisconsin is bounded by the Mississippi River. Someone made the point that if you haven't traveled a lot, you're bound to be focused on home. That's certainly true. I've seen most of the United States, and when I read about something happening in another part of the country I can relate to it personally. It's much like learning names of people. If I go into a crowd and am introduced to thirty people, I will only remember the names of people I've spoken to for awhile and feel like I've gotten to know.
Are we self-centered? Being human, yes we are. But I don't think that many of us are arrogant about it. There is a "If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere"(from the song New York, New York) attitude in some New Yorkers that is exageratedly self-centered, but I wouldn't even characterize "New Yorkers" as being arrogant. Maybe Mets fans.. :-)
A couple of years ago, my wife and I went to Ghana and the Ivory Coast. When you go out to fairly remote villages, all the kids want anything "American." They'd trade you something that took them hours to make for a cheap t-shirt if it had anything on it that said it was from America. I was wearing a baseball cap, and I think I could have traded it for a sculpture that would go for $100 dollars here. One kid wanted it really badly, so I just took it off my head and gave it to him.
There's a difference being self-centered and being arrogant. I'd say that most people everywhere are focused on their daily life, and don't think a whole lot about people and places they don't know. I feel as bewildered about places in Europe as many Europeans might feel about where places are in the United States, because other than having gone to Paris and London, Europe is a map to me, not a place I've experienced. When I send mail to European 'Catter friends of mine, I cna't figure out why there's so many numbers and names in it, and what I means. Sometimes, I'm not even sure which word is for the city or town. So, I get out a map, or look it up on the internet. I like to place friends in a setting. Photos are even greater.
I think that you'd find most Americans critical enough of their own Country (even after 9/11) to believe that we're not as smug and self-congratulatory as it might appear to some. Every country gets labeled. Parisians are unfriendly, southerners and Midwesterners(in the United States are "hicks"... people who are dumb and insular)... and on it goes. I wrote a song for a friend who said that she would never move to Wisconsin because you couldn't buy Brie there... and Wisconsin is the cheese center of the United States.
Wrote another song with the line "We are drowning in the details of life." I'm sure folks in England, or Hawaii are drowning in the details of life. But, I think us Amuricans are a friendly sort. Just have to get to know you. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Troll Date: 13 May 02 - 08:47 AM UK is much more insular. I mean, everyone KNOWS that the Wogs start at Calais. Mrrzy, I agree with you but there is a subtle difference. The Americans feel a trifle embarrased about it. They are a little uncomfortable around the British and French, rather like an auto mechanic thrown in with a group of lawyers. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 08:51 AM Mrrzy, the reason for our having the best country is that we have people and food from everywhere else...and we do our very best to mangle the language properly as we go about it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Geordie Date: 13 May 02 - 09:19 AM Recently four Canadian soldiers were killed by "friendly" American fire in Afghanistan. The American President sent no condolences, the American people were largely unaware of the tragedy. Canada and Canadians were not so much offended by this as they were hurt and disillusioned. Considering the assistance given to thousands of Americans by Canadians in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks , Canada was not one of the countries thanked by George Bush. Yes Americans are insular, arrogant, and contempyuous the much of the world. They are also generous, caring,brave, freedom loving people. That is what is so infuriating about them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 09:23 AM Well, Geordie, most US citizens who are aware of anything at all, and I'll be the first one to admit that isn't all of us, were very aware of this, and Mr. Bush expressed his regrets in a nationally televised address. I think your facts are in error. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Paul from Hull Date: 13 May 02 - 09:29 AM Well put, Guest. In general, I'd say that what we see on the 'net isnt the true picture anyway.... being as how such a HUGE propertion of people on the 'net are in the US (& Canada) anyhow. I'd even hazard a guess that there are a bigger proportion of the US population on the 'net than most other countries anyhow (maybe cos as I understand it, using the 'net is cheaper across the pond than here in the UK? In general terms though, I think the factor that American produced goods (eg: Pepsi/Cola, etc) & American TV & films are so easily accessible plays a big part. The rest of the world (or at least those parts of it that do have access to those things) can learn more about the US (though perhaps in a slightly skewed way (Hollywood, & TV sitcoms, etc, dont provide a particularly accurate picture, I'm sure!) That IS a two-way street, I think (even though most of the traffic is maybe going one way...*G*) UK TV & films seem pretty popular in the States, from what I can gather, though there is the 'special relationship' as the Politicians are fond of quoting...as well as a fairly common language...*G* Are Americans insular though in that they dont perceive how the rest of the world is (or how its people live, I should say) I dont think so, for what my opinion is worth. A proportion of Anericans have seen how other Nations & cultures live, through their tourism, or Military Service, or through the Internet too...but having said that, it depends where there interests lie (thats true for all of us). Consider that if we just look at our own Nations, America is so vast, its difficult for even Americans to know all they might want to about their own country...same is true here except that its TIME, not size. (somebody quoted on another Thread the other day - "Brits think 100 miles is a long way....Americans think 100 years is a long time" - to paraphrase what they said). Its difficult for all of us in 'the 1st World' to perceive how people in 'the 3rd World' see their lives, or see us. But I'd hazard a guess that some of those currently hostile to the West &/or the US see the US as 'taking their money' whereas Americans see it as bringing material benefits to those countries. It seems that a LOT of the focus both for the US & the nations who are negative about the US, is OIL, & related factors (such as carbon dioxide emissions). Having said that, what I dont understand is why, when its claimed there are cheap & clean alternatives to fossil fuels, the US is almost inviting the hostility of other Nations over it, & in the case of the Gulf War, 'potentially' spending the lives of its Servicemen & women. Is the Oil Lobby so strong that the US Government will anger the World at the G8 Summit over emissions, & anger the Arab World over bases in Saudi, & over going to War over oil, when development of those alternative power sources could go a long way to removing those bones of contention? Though this has drifted off topic, not been put well, & got far too long, my own personal conclusion, for what its worth, is no, AMERICANS arent necessarily insular as such, but the American Govt. most certainly seems to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 09:32 AM In fact... many Canadians are not aware that NATO is bombing Labrador every day, but who cares? It only affects Canadian native popluations for whom the damage casued to hunting lands is a real concern... Insular, Moi? Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 09:34 AM OK here is is, US folks are insular... what have your governments done about the following (Yes the US has done nothing either...) To keep this musical.... Who will marry me Words Lorcan Otway, all rights reserved... I'm a Bangladeshi Hindu girl, I cannot say my name I cannot show my face to you, I'm forced to flee in shame I cannot find the words to tell, what they did to me When the gangs came to my village and robbed my dignity I cannot speak the words my fear, and horror to relate When the women of my village became, the target of your hate With nothing but my tattered clothes, I have been forced to flee For after my public shame, who would ever marry me
In the decade before I was born, my land was wracked with pain Democracy and Freedom, religious rights to gain All the people of our land, shared the terror of that night to cast off religious hatred and, emerge into the light
I can't understand why the world, allows hate to divide my land Is our pain so foreign to your world, that you can't understand The tears of my nation, a waterwheel could turn Can they not touch your heart enough, our history to learn
How my story ends I cannot say, what's ahead I cannot see Fundamentalism's fertile fields, are starved lands of poverty But in the ruins of my land and life, I can only cry in vain why must I bear the shame alone, who would ever share my pain
One question more I'll ask of you, before I flee my land One question more I'll put to you, I'm too young to understand One question more I must demand, before I turn to go, for the answer to this question, no young girl may ever know
My sister's bodies have become, the target's of your war And our mother's and our grandmothers, for countless years before How can it be our dishonor, why is it our disgrace Why is it not the rapist, who is forced to hide his face
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Geordie Date: 13 May 02 - 09:41 AM It did take Mr. Bush an inordinately long time to express his sympathy. Initially he did not refer to it in Press Conferences at all. I am not anti-American, there is much That I admire and respect about your country but sometimes you take your friends and neighbours for granted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Paul from Hull Date: 13 May 02 - 09:41 AM Oops..a lot went up there while I was typing that epistle! I was agreeing with the American Guest posting at 07:53 (though I dont disagree with the Guests who've posted since then) ..& a big *LOL* to everything InOBU (& others) have said " The Sun never sets on the British Empire, God doesn't trust them in the dark!" Very good! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Paul from Hull Date: 13 May 02 - 09:46 AM Ooops..& while I was typing THAT, InOBU posts that song that almost makes me cry... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 13 May 02 - 09:50 AM Geordie, the accident happened on April 17th. He called Mr. Chretien that night and his statement was made the next day. How is that an "inordinately long time"? The statement is here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 13 May 02 - 09:59 AM Some people in the US are insular. And some people in Britain are insular too. And we've got some of each here in the forum. Takes all kinds to make a world, and I guess it takes all kinds to make an internet forum, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Paul from Hull Date: 13 May 02 - 10:00 AM Oh B*GG*R! How did it do that?..Sorry! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 10:01 AM Its easy to do that, Paul. Let me show you ..... perhaps not |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Geordie Date: 13 May 02 - 10:04 AM On The morning of the seventeenth when asked by Cdn reporters if he had sent official condolences to the people of Canada, Mr. Bush refused to answer the question. There was a great deal of consternation in Canada over the fact that we lost four soldiers and Mr. Bush appeared to be indifferent. It was not an item on American news reports nor did it seem be of much concern in America, I just felt, as a Canadian that we had been taken for granted and that our loss was not appreciated. Being a small country, population wise, we felt the loss of these soldiers deeply. Two of them come from the Province in which I live and the grief felt here was considerable, as I am sure you can imagine. I believe that people felt we had been ignored...and we were. Sad but true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 13 May 02 - 10:18 AM GUEST,Geordie, I would be grateful if you woudn't hold the citizens of the US responsible for anything Pres. Bush does or doesn't say or do. Remember, the majority of us didn't vote for him, but we're sort of stuck with him anyway. On behalf of those of us who didn't vote for Mr. Bush, I would like to offer my condolences to the Canadian people for the loss of those four soldiers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Geordie Date: 13 May 02 - 10:39 AM I appreciate your thoughts. I do not judge countries by who the leader is....I have always found Americans to be, for the most part, good neighbours. I would not want to be judged on the basis of the current leadership in my own country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 13 May 02 - 10:42 AM Is the Oil Lobby so strong that the US Government will anger the World at the G8 Summit over emissions, & anger the Arab World over bases in Saudi, & over going to War over oil, when development of those alternative power sources could go a long way to removing those bones of contention? The answer to this question is YES. And it's not just the oil lobby. A lot of the key people in the Bush administration are oil people. My opinion is that the oil industry is our real government (along with a number of other large corporate interests), and that Bush and the others in the government are their defacto employees. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: kendall Date: 13 May 02 - 10:42 AM He did get around to it after someone told him that it is what someone with brains would do. There is no center/centre of the world for people who have travelled or have some idea of what is going on in the world. Brits don't drink Budweiser. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: C-flat Date: 13 May 02 - 11:07 AM Taking the initial question in it's literal sense I have never found Americans insular or remote. I've made several trips to the U.S. and even in New York found people to be chatty and approachable with what seems to be a genuine interest in who you are,where you're from and wether you're experience of their particular corner of the world is a positive one. Some of that, I think, is borne out of their patriotism, which is always in evidence and something we in the U.K. seem to have lost, and some from the general outgoing nature of most Americans which can come across as over-confidence or arrogance. Once the British "reserve" is relaxed, I've enjoyed many conversations with total strangers all over the U.S. Geographically speaking, when your own "back yard" is the size of America it's hardly suprising that some of its population aren't as familiar with other places,locations and cultures. Now when it comes to being insular, the French........... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Peg Date: 13 May 02 - 11:13 AM No but they do drink Stella Artois!
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 13 May 02 - 11:13 AM Kendal! Unfortunzatly some brits DO drink Budwiezer, though I can't for the life of me emgagine why, so folks think bud, like baseball hats are cool! Beats me! Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CapriUni Date: 13 May 02 - 11:29 AM (writing from the USA, Virginia, btw, near-ish to where Elizabeth I sent her first colonizing explorers... I'm not far from the Elizabeth River). As for American vs. British spellings... I think it's just an evolution thing. When the first colonists came here from England, the language didn't have any standard spellings. I think that came about 100 years later. Those on the right side of the Pond chose one option to become standard, those on the left, another. Sort of like the evolution of different finches in the various Galápagos Islands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 11:38 AM Heavens, Capri, are you saying we Brits chose such an eccentric set of spellings deliberately? Its worse than I thought! It must have been those Cholmondeley and Featherstonehaugh families who put the dictionary together. (See Dr. Johnson's Preparatory Notes for His Dictionary, 1755) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: SharonA Date: 13 May 02 - 12:04 PM Jerry Rasmussen says, "For you folks across the sea, Pennsylvania is only two states away [from New York City]... you can drive to Philadelphia in two and a half hours." While it is true that one must travel through New Jersey if one wants to take the shortest route from New York City to Philadelphia PA, the state of Pennsylvania is not necessarily "two states away" from NYC. If one travels north from NYC and then west, say on interstate 84, one crosses from Orange County NY into Pike County PA without setting foot (or tire) in New Jersey. From that point north, New York state and Pennsylvania share a common border. So, for Jerry to say that PA is two states away from PA... well, that's just plain insular!! *BG* SharonA, native insular Pennsylvanian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CapriUni Date: 13 May 02 - 12:08 PM Warning: Thread Drift Zone Ahead! Well, whoever said that language has to make sense? Besides, the pronounciations have continued to evolve, but the spelling hasn't. In Shakespeare's day (at least, at the time he wrote Much Ado About Nothing), "Ache" was pernounced just like the letter "H"... but not all spelling back then made sense; the h in the Nothing of the title had nothing to do -- the word was pronounced like "noting", as in "to take note of what you hear" (and the whole plot of the play revolves around eavesdropping) While in Chaucer's day, every letter in "knight" was pronounced (K-Nih-Guh-T). You can see why that didn't last (I had enough trouble just saying the world in my Middle English Lit. class, I can't imagine how it would have scanned in a song!). You can complain about odd spellings all you want, but just be grateful you don't have to murder your vocal chords to hold a simple conversation! End Thread Drift Zone |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: SharonA Date: 13 May 02 - 12:09 PM D'oh! Typo alert! Let me try that again: So, for Jerry to say that NYC is two states away from PA... well, that's just plain insular!! *BG* (Of course, some Pennsylvanians consider Philadelphia and Pittsburgh to be separate entities from the rest of the state, but that's another story...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: PeteBoom Date: 13 May 02 - 12:09 PM On language... Several years ago PBS, publicly funded television in the States, ran a series hosted by Robert MacNeill on the "History of the English Language". One installment dealt with how endings have changed over the last 300-400 years and how these same endings have impacted the understanding of English as well as the development of jthe language. One bit that I remember from this, and still find fascinating, dealt with the "-ing" ending. It traced known usage and development as well as acceptance in recorded instances. This sent wee Robert off on a tangent about folk living in Appalachia in the States. It, may actually have been in the Carolinas, but I seem to recall it was Appalachia. Anyway, the topic was how educated folk tended to look down on people from this region who "drop the 'g'" in the "-ing" ending, and prefice the given verb with "a". As in, "I'm a fixin..." Wee Robert's point was that to be perfectly accurate, they are not "dorpping the 'g'" - given that this was correct and proper English grammer in the late 17th century and early 18th century, these folk simply never added it. Cheers - Pete |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 13 May 02 - 12:30 PM Another Off thread Alert Thanks for your comments, CapriUni. Can we pursue this idea of spelling evolution a bit further, though? As a Brit involved in computers since the late 60's, I always used programme for TV and Theatre, but program for computers, disc for records and flat round things but disk for computer disks. Colour always held the British spelling. Many of the American spellings are gradually being adopted in the UK. You come across posters saying "tonite" rather than "tonight" quite often, for example. I would regard this as evolution of the language, rather than decay of British English as some might. Are there changes in spelling (as opposed to introduction of new words) happening in American English?. We may need to start a new thread if this discussion continues.
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,The Jester Date: 13 May 02 - 12:37 PM I asked him what his name was and how come he didn't drive a truck.He replied Columbus so I just said good luck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 13 May 02 - 12:52 PM Sharon A: You're right, how insular of me! I assumed that anyone who wanted to go to Pennsylvania would leave from where I live. :-) As for New Joisey(Jersey for you Brits) some people might say it's worht going out of your way not to have to drive through New Jersey. But, they wouldn't know what a beautiful state New Jersey is. I worked at the Newark Museum in New Jersey (right across the river from New York City, for the Brits) and traveled through the state, and it is beautiful country. Everything except a long stretch of the Jersey Turnpike. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: John Gray Date: 13 May 02 - 12:57 PM From several visits to the USA, first for 14 months in 65/66, I have gained the impression that , whilst most Australians know that the US is comprised of states and the leader is a president, the Americans don't know if we comprise counties, states, provinces or cantons or whether our leader is a president, a prime minister, a chief, a dictator, a king or a queen. JG / FME |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: ard mhacha Date: 13 May 02 - 01:11 PM On my first visit to the US in 1970, I remember a lady asking me "did you come from Ireland by Car", and yes I was amazed at their total ignorance of almost everything European, very very insular. Ard Mhacha |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: ard mhacha Date: 13 May 02 - 01:14 PM But to be fair, very very friendly,Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Fortunato Date: 13 May 02 - 01:17 PM But who are these Americans you ask about? Do you mean the people I know? Dr. Chen B.Deer G. Alderdice M. Kim R.Kavanaugh M.Mawniki L.Gonzalez M.Murthy S. Sullivan K.Szakos Well, answering for the people I know, their world awareness and their personalities differ so greatly that no generalizations can be made. If people want to believe there large numbers of homogenized Americans all marching to the same drummer, well go ahead. But that doesn't make it so. Turn off your television; disconnect from CNN. Walk our city streets, visit our small towns, have a coffee or a beer in a local tavern. Eat at the Snappy Lunch. Come see us. We aren't in the media and we aren't in the movies and we surely aren't on the television. It isn't real, friends. Neither is the public face of our politicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: catspaw49 Date: 13 May 02 - 01:19 PM Funny thread really! The US is no more or less insular than most places anymore and the answer to the question is, "It depends." On a political/statesmanship level, it depends on who is running the show as to how we treat other countries and how outgoing or insular in our thinking we are. If you go back to the WWI period, we were very insular but began to change after that. In the past 50 years it has greatly depended on the President and his personal view of world affairs. On the individual citizen level, again it depends. I doubt that on a percentage basis there are greater or fewer folks with a "world view" here than anywhere else. Oddly enough, and to some degree because the country is large with population centers in every region, people tend to be somewhat more "home-bodied" about their own region/state/county whatever. Unless you're financially well off, not to many people think of taking a weekend visit to the other side (or the middle) of this country......the distances are kinda' prohibitive for most. and then some people simply don't leave home....period. I have lived and worked over most of the United States and when Karen and I settled down in this tiny little village, I should have known better, but was completely surprised at how "insular" things were here. The county seat (Lancaster) is 12 miles away and I go there virtually daily, but people living in Lancaster rarely come here. Not that there is anything here, but a woman Karen worked with needed directions....and she had lived in Lancaster all of her life. I mentioned to someone in Lancaster that a performer was going to be "in town." Lancaster is only 35 miles from Columbus, a major city and the state capital. By in town I meant Columbus. They responded, "In Lancaster?" .....Geeziz, Karen drives to work in Columbus everyday!!! But hey, if it ain't happening in Lancaster, a lot don't bother with it. That's insular. INOBU and other on NYC folks...........remember Lenny Bruce talking about being Jewish and New York? "If you live in New York or any other big city, you are Jewish. It doesn't matter even if you're Catholic; if you live in New York, you're Jewish. If you live in Butte, Montana, you're going to be goyish even if you're Jewish." Larry, that's why I can never take you seriously as a Quaker. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: catspaw49 Date: 13 May 02 - 01:23 PM Hey John Gray!! My friend there is a reason that we treat Australia as we do. Like the old joke goes........Australia is like an 80 year old woman's genitals. Everybody knows it's down there......Nobody cares............ Spaw(:<)) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 13 May 02 - 01:26 PM Is knowlege of Europe the measure with which we determine insularity or the lack of it? That sounds Eurocentrically (sp?) insular to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 13 May 02 - 01:33 PM ard, if she said that, she was not simply an American, she was simply an idiot. When I was in High School and College, a heavy emphasis was put on European History and Geography, to the exception of Asian, African, etc. So, if we are insular, we're on the same island with you folks. I would be happy to discuss Michael Collins, Eamon DeValera, the Battle of the Boyne or the monument at Newgrange with you. Would you be as comfortable talking to me about the battle of Chickamauga or the journey of Lewis and Clark? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Alice Date: 13 May 02 - 02:06 PM I second LEJ's statement. American education includes a history of Europe. Does European education include a history of America? Insular and ignorant people exist to some degree in every country. Regarding the posting of messages without saying what country the person is from... the site began basically with people in the US who compiled the information and created it, then grew to international participation in the forum. Many people who find the site can identify it as being based in the US but are not aware of the global growth of the forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 May 02 - 02:58 PM "Brits don't drink Budweiser."
There's enough of it on sale in the shops and all the adverts on the telly. There must be a lot of people who drink it. Or maybe a few people who drink a lot of it. Poor sods.
On the other hand we can also buy real Budweiser, made in the Czech Republic which is a totally different beer, and a great beer. The labels say Budweiser Budvar, to avoid the risk of making a horrible mistake.
Really big countries with big populations must feel like they are the whole world, stands to reason. Russia, China, USA, India. Small countries can't get fooled that way. "Insular" is really the least appropriate word to have got associated with this phenomenon. Islands can't normally afford to be insular. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Joe Offer Date: 13 May 02 - 02:59 PM I've lived in California since 1973, and I'm still not used to it. Out here, people think going "back east" is a drive to Reno or Las Vegas - and they seem to have the impression there is nothing worth anything east of Nevada. If you look on a map and see what's in the thousand-mile space east of Nevada, maybe you'll understand... I think there is much more of an awareness of Europe and Canada in the Eastern and Midwest United States. Here in California, people are aware of Mexico and Asia, but their concept of Europe is a bit foggy. To the minds of Californians, Canada is Victoria, Vancouver, and a vast wilderness. Yes, there are Californians who have traveled extensively, and they have a much broader world view. I also remember a time in the 1970's when I wasn't able to afford to travel, and my focus was on my little family in an apartment in Los Angeles. We had lived in Berlin for 20 months just before that, and we travelled all over Europe on a very limited budget. Our stay in Los Angeles also lasted 20 months, and all we could afford was a couple of trips to Sacramento and a vacation in Santa Barbara. So, yeah, I guess it happens that Americans have a limited world view. I think it's caused by geography and financial limitations. Is that a horrible thing? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Mr Happy Date: 13 May 02 - 03:36 PM spellings: UK v US i don't know if i shouldn't start a different thread about this but since there's a lot of references to the topic in this one here goes. an item from 'Folk Orbit' mag.: Important: Please Read New information from the European Commissioners The European Commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications rather than German, the only other possibility considered. As part of the negotiation, however, the British Government has conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and simplification. A five year phased plan has been accepted for what will be known as "Euroenglish". In the first year "s" will be used instead of the soft "c". Sertainly, sivil servants will reseive this news with joy. Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". not only will this kreate less konfusion, but keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". this will aid ekonomy, making words like "fotograf" twenty persent shorter. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes will be possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e's" in the languag is pointless, and they would go. By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z", and replasing "w" wiz "v", and ze fifz year vil se ozer changes. Ze unesesary "o" kan be droped from vords containing "ou", and similar changes vud, of kors, be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After ze fifz year, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis, and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze European drem vil finali kom tru.
Blody hel!
regards mr happy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Bill D Date: 13 May 02 - 04:28 PM Everyone please note ...I have NOT started a thread called "Are Brits prim and stuffy" Why? Because they are NOT all that way, even though many movies, TV programs and joke portray them that way. Is there ANY truth to sterotypes? Probably--there are certain national identity characteristics for any country.....Germans, Americans, Japanese, Swedes, Aussies...all have idiosyncracies which sort of identify them, But even is a smallish country like Englad, there are differences....so in the USA, with 3000 miles between Miami & Seattle, there are wide variations in what we think, do, speak, eat, believe, listen to, celebrate, study, care about and know. It is, as 'spaw says, pretty funny reading yet another attempt to label 250,000,000 people with one simplistic tag. Thing is, is is the 'insular', stupid, thoughtless, obnoxious members of a society that get noticed and stand out in a crowd....and you have yours, just as we have ours.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Blues=Life Date: 13 May 02 - 04:43 PM You know, there is harldly anything more arrogant than pre-judging people based on faulty assumptions. What started this whole thread was Keith Dance's comment "As an observer from the UK, I think it would be fair to say that Americans consider themselves the centre of the world. Indeed, this can be seen time and again in posts here. People asking for advice where location matters (i.e. where to find a guitar shop, how to find a map for a certain location etc.) differ. Those from the UK, Australia, wherever, tend to explain where they are. Those from the USA seem to take it as a gien that they live in the USA." It seems like most times I meet someone from another country, this is the attitude I run into. At a trade show in April, a Canadian co-worker did the same old "You don't know anything about Canadian gov't or geography" crap. So we had a little competition, he asked me 5 questions, I did the same. Boy, it's awful being the big dumb barbarian American! I only got 5 right out of 5. He clearly knew more about the US, ahh... is 1 out of 5 good? Doesn't matter, the assumption remained that I got lucky! LOL Finally, to explain our "self-centeredness" in Keith's example, has it not occurred to you where this website originates? If I walk into a store in South Carolina and ask directions to a good music store, the answer (from knowledgable people) will be Hames Music (by the way, an incredible place with great staff), a mere 20 miles away. Why, because the assumption is that I'm looking for local information, since I'm standing in South Carolina when I ask. If I were told about this great little shop in Tokyo, I'd think they were a bit strange. By the same token, if this website originated in London, I would probably emphasize the fact that I was an American in the same type of situation, because otherwise my answer would seem very strange and out of place. A last note; everyone thinks the world revolves, at least partially, around themselves. Why? Because their world does! The trick is to realize that your world can be as big as you want it to be, and can overlap many other "worlds" and cultures if you so choose. That's one of the great joys of music, it gives us a bigger world. Peace, Blues
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Mr Red Date: 13 May 02 - 05:17 PM Americans insular? hmmmmmm So how many old Etonians does it take to change a lightbulb? only one but the rest of the universe has to revolve around him. for the collectors out there - this has been collected as a Mac programmers' joke too - and just as true! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: mack/misophist Date: 13 May 02 - 09:00 PM As I understand it, the reason for the difference between English and American spelling is Noah Webster. He was a spelling reform advocate and the first American dictionary writer. Naturally his dictionary was widely used in American schools. The need for spelling reform, however rests solidly upon the head of one J. Caxton, of London. He is personally responsible for most of the worst spellings. And is it true that Americans are insular? The answer must be a resounding DAMN RIGHT THEY ARE. When the schools don't teach American history, geography, of government very well; how can Americans be expected to know about the rest of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,John Gray @ work Date: 13 May 02 - 11:33 PM Catspaw, no, I don't know what an 80 year old woman's genitals but, as you seem to, I'll defer to your greater knowledge in this matter. JG / FME |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: ard mhacha Date: 14 May 02 - 01:52 PM Lonesome EJ, yOU WOULD BE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED I YOU |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: ard mhacha Date: 14 May 02 - 02:05 PM lonesome EJ, Sorry the oul trigger finger slipped, As i meant to say you would be pleasantly surprised at the average personS knowledge of the US, all over Ireland. Yes, I must confess to being very interested in US history and I have a lovely copy of the Lewis and Clark book. But as I said previously,I have never met nicer people, than my friends in Penn Ohio and West Virginia. Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 14 May 02 - 02:29 PM Dear Spaw... I have concidered thy message, and waited on light on thy concern, and I break the silence reverently to voice that light within, that still small voice, which desires I answer thee, so... oye vey iss meer! Thy Friend and friend (schlamazle to thy schlameezility) Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 May 02 - 02:44 PM Thanks, ard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: SharonA Date: 14 May 02 - 04:12 PM Ard Mhacha: Thanks for the compliment about the people of the *great* state of Pennsylvania!! (Your payment for promotional services should arrive shortly.) *G* SharonA, native insular Pennsylvanian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Mr Red Date: 14 May 02 - 04:21 PM DtG look in yer dictionary for fawcet I saw it once as a "wooden tap for a barrel" so yer average Pilgrim Father took barrels of water on the Mayflower, and their water utility was none butt the best! Now I don't imagine the Pilgrim Fathers guzzling Budwieser, whereas we brits were already a long way down that decadent path. So by the time Dr Johnson was lexiconning the world (with a tankard in one hand!) we had perfected the art of gently "tapping barrels" and were no longer resorting to force it! the rest is his story! McGrath of Harlow New York insular? Well maybe a bit peninsular in places. Maybe Pittsburg is Penn. insular too? eh SharonA> The map of Brittain shows, agog! An outline somewhat like a dog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Herga Kitty Date: 14 May 02 - 04:24 PM Insular? No, no, no! I live in England and we're just parochial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Mr Red Date: 16 May 02 - 10:16 AM Kitty Make that provincial Mr Red who lives on the line from Bristol to the Wash, but is 50 miles north of it by default! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,Spike Date: 16 May 02 - 11:12 AM Bloody hell mate; the US must be the centRE of the world. Americans manage to produce 50% of the world greenhouse gasses and they only make up 1/24 th of it's population. Nice one Uncle Sam. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Celtic Soul Date: 16 May 02 - 11:10 PM I would just like to point out that there have been threads wherein someone from the UK mentions some spot there that I have *no* idea about, and have no clue as to what it is, let alone where it is. Sometimes, it is only in the reading of the responses that you can suss out the "where" of the thing. My point is, it happens both ways. As for the USA being insular, I would just like to point out that it takes us 3-4 days driving nearly non-stop to cross from one end to the other, or from the northernmost point to the southernmost point. Most of us *never* get out of the country. It's expensive, as it involves major airfare and/or a huge time commitment, so, it's really very hard to envision anything else just from others descriptions. We are what we are mainly because, for most of us, it surrounds us for thousands of miles in every direction. What does a fish know of water, until you take it out into the air? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 16 May 02 - 11:17 PM Well, you not so insular British cousins... all day long, my post about Sonar Bangala, golden Bangladesh, once the richest nation in that region, until you reduced it to one of the most impoverished nations on earth, has lain there, with not one of you cosmopolitan English chaps making a comment or likely having a peek at the thread, so what can we assume, after owning and destroying the nation, the name sounded a tad foriegn to you, so you ignored the thread. Well, just an observation, you sent Travellian to ruin the Bangladeshi textile tradition just as he did so much to help bring Ireland into the modern industrial age... so... where are you in touch with the world nieghbors of ours??? Cheersm'dears, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 17 May 02 - 07:11 AM Gee that got it REAL quite around here fast!!!!! Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DMcG Date: 17 May 02 - 07:29 AM Ok, fair comment Larry. I admit I hadn't looked at the song - but there again I have only looked at about 10% of the threads anyway. And how do I decide which 10%? Well, the name mostly. So yes, I'll consider myself beaten up (but very lightly!) As for the damage the UK did in the past to places like this - its unfortunately pretty typical behaviour for us. But the one thing you can say about British Rule - its consistant! Ireland (North and South), Bangladesh, Pakistan ... and don't forget Peterloo, the Tolpuddle martyrs or more recently the miner's strikes ... hang on, its that a knock at the door? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Mr Happy Date: 17 May 02 - 07:48 AM there's a well known annual sporting event in us, called 'the world series' however all the participant teams are americans does this example illustrate everyday us mindset? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 17 May 02 - 07:56 AM Well put, DMcG: ... by the by... what did ya think of the song? Cheers, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 17 May 02 - 08:04 AM there's a well known annual sporting event in us, called 'the world series' however all the participant teams are americans
does this example illustrate everyday us mindset? In a P.T. Barnum hucksterism sort of way perhaps (famous US circus guy who was fond of using superlatives, ie: THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH). People in the US often tend to like to think big. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 17 May 02 - 08:08 AM Of course, letting in the Japanese or (heaven forfend) the Cubans might result in the New York Yankees REALLY getting whupped! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: CarolC Date: 17 May 02 - 09:00 AM Heh. I just thought of something. Maybe people here in the US often like to think big because it's easy to feel small in a country the size of this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DougR Date: 17 May 02 - 11:35 PM A legitimate complaint, I think. When one is asking a question relating to something like, "Where can you buy a good guitar?" It certainly would be helpful to identify the paremiters of where you are willing to shop. I think the question, though, speaks more to the bias so many people have for the U. S. (I'm not referring to those who live here ...God knows there are ample people who live here that delight in denigrating our country). There may be, on the Mudcat, a tendency to reply to questions with U. S. answers because the Mudcat is based in the U. S. Does it really matter though? If someone replies to a question and the reply relates to a location in the U. S., those in the U. S. that are interested will take note of it. The next post, offering an answer, however, may be from Australia, and those there will ...oh well, you know what I mean. DougR DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 18 May 02 - 09:04 AM I disagree with ard mhaca's claim that many people in Ireland are knowledgeable about the US. The Irish, like the British, are obsessed with US pop culture (love or hate it), and their knowledge of the US is limited to knowledge of Anglo dominated pop culture, and inconsistent reporting on US politics (particularly as it relates to their own countries). Reporting by legitimate news sources in Britain are considerably more haughty towards Americans than are their Irish counterparts though. I find it interesting to note that one of the major Irish music websites (can't remember which one off-hand right now, but I'll check my bookmarked sites and get back to you with which one) describes Mudcat as enviably good BRITISH folk music website. Not an American (or even British) blues music site, nor a website which covers the myriad of non-British folk musics of North America or any other continent. To me, that suggests Mudcat is often perceived by those with an interest in non-Anglo folk music as being not only Anglocentric, but that the website's purpose is to serve as a website for traditional and contemporary Anglo and Anglo American folk music. In my experience here, not nearly as many Americans users view the forum as having a British Anglocentric emphasis, as British users view the forum as US-centric. Considering that the forum is a US folk music forum, I find the complaints by British and Irish contributors that the Americans are insular to be downright rude and annoying. While it is clear that the "international" aspect of the forum is really limited to a large number of British users and a small handful of Irish users, it does seem to me that these sorts of threads are just plain ole British begrudgers rearing their ugly heads to try and start anti-American slanging matches. In my experience, the British cyber-folk, both here and in the Usenet groups, have more than a few "issues" (as we say in the States) with Americans and the stereotypes of them they love to hate. Some are quite "in yer face" about their irrational hatred of "Americans" when they think they can get away with it. You want to see insular? Spend a month reading uk.music.folk!
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Gareth Date: 18 May 02 - 09:20 AM Hmmmm ! From the UK - Does anybody remember the newspaper headline " Storms in Channel - Continent Isolated" Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,P.S. From Guest Just Above Date: 18 May 02 - 09:26 AM P.S. GUEST, Keith Dance originated this thread by claiming to be a member with a crumbed cookie, by proclaiming in most inflammatory terms: "As an observer from the UK, I think it would be fair to say that Americans consider themselves the centre of the world." Nothing inflammatory about that statement, eh? Odd that no one has mentioned the "T" word here. Considering that GUEST Keith Dance has not contributed anything to this thread since it's initial post, it seems rather obvious this person is a classic troll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 18 May 02 - 10:15 AM Seems odd for a certain annonimous pot to be calling a certain named kettle names! No insult intended Guest, but I find it hard to take serriously someone with a bag over their head. Cheers, The real life Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 18 May 02 - 10:19 AM Your inability to take the posts at face value, rather than fixating on non-existing images is your problem Larry. Being anonymous isn't synonymous with being a troll, and there are plenty of excellent contributions from anonymous posters in Mudcat to prove you both paranoid and wrong. The point is, and remains, that you have been hoodwinked by an anonymous troll, but because of your prejudices against blank "From" lines, you weren't able to suss out the troll in your midst trying to start an anti-American flame war in a US folk music forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 18 May 02 - 10:26 AM What is your world like, Guest... I can see you walking down the street, the opposit way against traffic to make sure you are not kidnapped, your dark glasses and collar turned up... your dark glasses just above your high turtle neck collar, as you go to your local folk club, where you slide into the corner dark corner booth, facing the door, where you can watch for the dreaded folk asassins, looking for the few free thinkers, whos thoughts are so precious that if we knew their true identity they would not be safe to walk amongs us... Hey! I think I saw a film about you the other day, a beautiful mind! No offence ol' faceless cum... Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Guest! Date: 18 May 02 - 10:40 AM I a worried about the identity theift going on about this place, posting under my mudcat name... and claiming to be annonimous. I mean really, give me a break, for example, when I go to hear the greatest band in the world, Sorcha Dorcha, I expect that band to show up... not just a band with the same name! Cheers, Guest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 18 May 02 - 10:44 AM Nice trolling yourself there InOBU, but I'm not taking your bait. Like I said, the troll here is the originator of the thread. But because the person put a name in the "From" line, they cleverly tip-toed around the Mudcat default prejudice against "anonymous" guests trolling the members by starting threads and not filling in the "From" line. This sort of trolling has been going on for quite awhile now (ie the troll posts as guest, but puts something in the "From" line). I'm even going to make a guess that the same person started this thread who has been refreshing the Celtic Music/Bulmer thread for the past week or so. Someone who is spoiling for a flamewar. The originator of this thread even told you what they were doing--they started out their post with: "I know that some of you might consider this an 'anti American' flame, especially because I'm posting as a Guest. It isn't, and I only post as a guest because the sysop here has disabled cookies." So why is it that all the Mudcat members who are so good at sussing out trolls, didn't see that one coming from an American mile away? Which proves my point about how blinkered the belief is among the membership that only posters who leave the "From" line blank are trolls in this forum. Get a clue, Larry. Wise up and recognize the real enemy when they are in your midst. This reactionary stance of members, wherein they get a warm and fuzzy safe feeling when they see the "From" line filled in, and a hostile and contentious feeling when it is left empty, has blinded the users of this forum for far too long. Take each post at face value, and you really don't have a problem. Except when you take the posts of your fellow members who are jerks at face value, of course. Then you can't stay in your cozy, insular "member vs guest/us vs them" mentalite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: artbrooks Date: 18 May 02 - 10:51 AM Troll alert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 18 May 02 - 10:57 AM A bit late out of the starting gate, aren't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 18 May 02 - 11:47 AM So, here is the link I promised above (Guest 18 may 9:04 a.m.). From Ronan Nolan's excellent "Irish Music Web" site here: http://www.irishmusicweb.ie/texts/sing_res.html On his links page he gives the following description of Mudcat: "Mudcat Discussion Forum Enviable British chatroom with lots of Irish content." Anyone have any guesses as to why Ronan thought Mudcat, an American folk music forum, was actually a British folk music forum? WARNING: Rant mode on! It does seem to me that certain antagonistic British cyber-folk have a tendency to take over folk music forums online and try to run them into the ground with their mercenary anti-American flamewars. We saw it here with the Celtic Music/Bulmer threads, which pretty much ruined the rec.music.folk newsgroup. A couple of years ago, there were numerous knowledgeable American cyber folk contributors, most of whom fled in the wake of nasty, protracted flamewars instigated by certain British posters, directed at all things American--American musicians they claimed were stealing British musicians work and making millions, American posters in the group, what they still disparagingly refer to as "American snigger-songwriters." Rec.music.folk is like a ghost town now. But uk.music.folk is thriving! We seem to be seeing the same sort of thing seeping into the Mudcat forum. A handful of malicious British posters attempting to poison this and every other decent folk music discussion forum on the web with their vile anti-American crap. How many of the British protagonists in the Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer have contributed meaningfully and/or fairly consistently before or since those flamewars someone is clearly trying to start up again right now? Where are the folk music contributions to other threads of people like George H and Ralphie to the forum? Answer: they are non-existent. They came here with an incredibly nasty, divisive agenda--divided and conquered, and left. So Ralphie--is it you trying to get the flamewars going again? Rant mode off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Ebbie Date: 18 May 02 - 11:52 AM For the record, I don't think of GUEST 9:04, 9:26, 10:19,10:24 as being a troll. A little heavy-handed, maybe but then, s/he is not on a negotiating team. I think s/he makes good points- I, for one, do approach with wariness any post that is blank or just GUEST. And Guest 9:04, etc, is right that when a guest signs in with a tag appended I in many cases tend to think the person plans to be somewhat accountable. As to whether Americans are more or less insular than other countries, I suspect we all tend to judge others by our own communities. Not only that, many, many times when a person draws a blank on the location of a specific city, country, continent- I think it's because the speaker was not understood. We do pronounce things very differently from each other, and given a 'strange' accent to boot, the listener often simply does not understand the question. I remember years ago in Virginia a woman asked my father where he was from. He said, 'Oregon', pronouncing it the way Oregonians do, which is NOT the way it appears. She asked him twice then finally shook her head. "Never heard of it," she said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Celtic Soul Date: 18 May 02 - 11:57 AM I am constantly perplexed by how hard it is to be fair. If a post is polite and respectful, great. If it trashes someone or a whole culture, etc., then not great. Much as I do not like anonymous postings, as you cannot tell when you are dealing with someone who has in past been one of those anonymous folks guilty of flaming, the fact remains that, if the thinking is sound, the thinking is sound and it shouldn't matter what the source. Prejudice is prejudice. If you judge an individual by the country they come from or a post by the name it is under, how is it any better than judging someone first by the color of their skin, and not on their individual merits?
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 18 May 02 - 12:07 PM Ebbie, another idea that came to me was the number of members being cited in another thread being around 11,000. It made me wonder how many troll/flamers had registered as members, just to get around the membership prejudices against the blank "From" line, do their damage, and leave once they got bored. It only takes a few minutes reading this forum for a troll to figure out how to do this, and it gets done in online forums all the time. I think the Mudcat members are too cyber-insular (ie they are too attached to their Mudcat cyber-homeland, and don't get out to other discussion forums on the web) to see who the real trolls are in their midst. Some of the worst trolls and flamers here, after all, are long-time members using the same pseudonyms and/or their real names. They are, in fact, quite proud of the fact that they get away with belittling, harrassing, humiliating, and threatening guest and other member posters with impunity.
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: DonD Date: 18 May 02 - 12:53 PM As an American (pardon, US) xenophile, I'm much more interested in posts from and about the UK and elsewhere than almost anywhere in the States. Title a thread "UK 'Catters only" and I'm hooked. I'm not insular, parochial or provincial -- I'm a New Yorker. Of course the Yankees are supposed to win the world series. And the Rock is supposed to win the World Wrestling Federation. What part of the word 'hype' don't you understand. When I read a thread, I usually start at the top and work my way down to the bottom, and only go back to look at who posted if there is some particular geographical reference or outrageous provocation, in which latter case I must say I am not to surprised to find it is from GUEST. I'm not insular, but that doesn't mean all Yanks aren't insular; those GUEST flames don't mean all guests are assholes. I've been to Oahu, but never to Ohio; I've been in St.Moritz but never in St. Louis, etc, etc. but what's that got to do with anything as long as I remember when I express an opinion where I got my information from and what I base it on. Everyone has preconceptions and prejudices but the important thing is to be aware of them, resist a holier-than-thou attitude, and avoid impugning others knowledge or motives. It's as clear as the moon in the sky on a cloudless night: assholes will reveal themselves. If you suspect you might be one, don't moon, I mean post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 18 May 02 - 01:33 PM DonD shares his preferences with us, to wit: "As an American (pardon, US) xenophile, I'm much more interested in posts from and about the UK and elsewhere than almost anywhere in the States. Title a thread "UK 'Catters only" and I'm hooked." Which begs the question: then why spend your time in an American forum? Wouldn't you be happier inhabiting a British forum, or a NY forum, considering your stated preferences? Oh, I forgot! People like you prefer to inhabit the American forums so you have a ready made audience to look down upon and hurl your sneering insults at.
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: catspaw49 Date: 18 May 02 - 01:46 PM LMAO..........Ah yes, the weekend........trolldays as it were............Keep trying goofus. I applaud your efforts and creativity in creating non-issues. So far today I see you've tried at least four! Good job....increases your chances, but I think you'd do better to encapsulate all four into one rambling thought thing and start a new thread. This one is now getting too long to attract the majority so I'd think you need to start something new. Maybe something along the lines of "US based forum" and it's "obvious" problems and you can then throw in the oldies such as Guests, Inner Clique, In-House trolls, and the like. Go for it!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST,SeanN. Date: 18 May 02 - 02:41 PM Actually Spaw, you seem to be the only one coming into the threads on the weekends and haranguing guests. And I notice no one else leaping on your bandwagon, so maybe the time has come for you to give it a rest. I have to agree about difficulty of finding online forums to discuss American folk music. There just isn't a general place to do it anymore. I'm not sure I agree with the above guests stated reasons for the lack of a forum. But I sure do miss hearing from people like Sam Hinton, Frank Hamilton, etc and having to put up with burp and fart threads here in Mudcat, just to get my folk fix. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Hrothgar Date: 18 May 02 - 10:27 PM Don't feed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: InOBU Date: 18 May 02 - 11:31 PM Hey Spaw... me pet wee mousie, the mouse before the late lamented Bongo Knock, well that wee mouse's name was Goofus. It was his name and a good name it was for a good wee mousie, proud of his name he was, and he'd answer to it... please don't waiste a good name on a nameless guest... Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: Bob Bolton Date: 19 May 02 - 12:20 AM G'day Larry,
I know you posted this nearly a week ago, but I've been basically avoiding senseless threads started by trolls who promptly vanish back under the bridge: Hey! Why shouldn't they hang onto the silly caps? ... They invented the game (baseball is mentioned back in Jane Austin's novels and by a few of her contemporaries) ... They've just found better things to do with their spare time since then. Regard(les)s, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are Americans 'insular'? From: GUEST Date: 19 May 02 - 11:01 AM I see catspaw49 is doing his best to keep members from looking behind the curtain, and focusing instead on those blank "From" lines. |