Origins: Duncan and Brady

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Mark Ross
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:52 PM

In his memoir THE MAYOR OF MACDOUGAL STREET, Dave says he learned the song from Paul Clayton. Where did he get it from?

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Jacob B
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM

I have heard a recording which, instead of the refrain line 'Been on the job too long', has the refrain 'Been on the take too long'. It's an interesting variant, since it makes it explicit that Brady was corrupt.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST, Eric
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:57 PM

Brian Hoskin and Azizi,

Thank you so much for those detailed and helpful answers, and for the links. Having read through all this material, I have to conclude that wearing red is/was a funerary custom, especially practised by women. The theory that "it rhymes" isn't satisfactory. The point about rhymes is that the words match AND the lines make sense! The examples like "Who are those children dressed in red / black / white" are different -- those seem more arbitrary. But many instances have been posted in these forums to show that after a death, the women change into red clothes -- and even if a woman has got another daddy in the wings, the wearing of red is still, I would say, a funerary custom, not a celebration.

Thanks again!

Eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:40 PM

While this may be tangential to the Duncan and Brady song,
I'm intrigued by the idea that was posted in the link that Brian provided that women dressed in red may represent a traditional African funeral practice of celebrating life. In this view, the color red symbolizes the person's return to the red earth. Red probably also symbolized blood=life, and menstruation=fertility in traditional African cultures and other traditional cultures.

This discussion also reminded me that some etymologists say that the name "Adam" means red "earth". Also, the early Egyptians depicted themselves with red paint {note: Some West African, Central African, and East African ethnic groups are Nilotic}.

Also, see these excerpts on the symbolical use of the color "red" in Christianity and in feng sui:

"In the earlier days of the church it was understood that a soldier could not pursue an enemy that had entered through the red doors of a church. The red doors were a symbol of refuge and sanctuary for all people who entered. To all concerned the red on the doors signified the blood of Christ that had been shed so that all who came to him could be saved. Anyone who passed through those doors was safe as long as they stayed behind them.

Over time, Christian people began to see the red doors of the church as symbolizing not only physical refuge and safety, but spiritual refuge as well. The blood of Jesus, and of the Church's martyrs, that the red doors of the church symbolized, would protect you from evil, both physical and spiritual. The red doors spoke to the world of holy ground that existed inside those doors, space that had been purged and made clean by God's Holy Spirit. Today people choose to paint their church doors red for many of the same reasons that churches did centuries ago. The Episcopal Church of the Good Samaritan, as I'm sure your church does (even if it doesn't have red doors), would like to be recognized as a place of peace, refuge and salvation for all people in our community."

Source: http://www.motherflash.com/goodsamaritan/reddoor.html

-snip-

"On a tangentially related note, red doors are also featured in feng sui:

A red door can be used with the intention of protecting the home and those inside, especially if your house is at the end of a T street intersection. Red can also be used to attract chi towards the door."

Source: http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2004/09/red-doors.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:42 PM

Sorry, that sentence should be

"This discussion also reminded me that some etymologists say that the name "Adam" means "red earth".

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 07:36 PM

Adam, from the Hebrew, has the meaning "to make," cf. Assyrian adamu, to build; hence 'adam' in the passive sense would signify man, 'as made'. This seems to be the prevailing theory at present (Catholic Encyclopaedia).
The word is not common to all Semitic tongues (it occurs in Phoenician, Sabean and perhaps Assyrian).
The term is used as both a common and a proper noun in the Old Testament.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 06:31 AM

Re-ragging in red for a funeral IMO from repeated references signifies affirmation of life in the presence of death. It is a flagrant refusal to wear black and thus signify acquiescence. The women were saying Brady / Ella Speed / Alice B., etc, lived on in the glory of their presence, death couldn't take them away.

My assumption, based on Paul Clayton's version of "Been On The Job Too Long," is that he learned it from a copy of the Wilmer Watts record he found while collecting songs in Virginia, North Carolina and Kentucky, and rewrote it just enough to gain copyright on his recording. He collected 78s for the wind-up phonograph he kept in the cabin he owned in the foothills outside Charlottesville, VA.

Subject: RE: ADD: 'Been on the job too long' - Wilmer Watts
From: GUEST,catherine yronwode
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 01:15 AM

Back in 2003 Stevie posted a transcription of the Wilmer Watts version of Been on the Job Too Long / Duncan and Brady with one line unclear. I have not completely unravelled it, but here is my take. It is the second line in this stanza that is at issue:

Early in the morning, just about nine
Horses in the high [court?] formed a line
White and the black all gathered around
They're gonna take Mr Brady to the buryin' ground
Been on the job too long

I have always liked this verse, despite Watts' poor enunciation, because on the surface the "black and white" seems to refer to the horses, but since the song also involved black and white people (James Brady being white, and Harry Duncan black), the song speaks to complex racial conditions in (East?) Saint Louis at the time of composition and to the fact that desite the modern "electric car", automobiles had not yet replaced horse-drawn hearses.

Also, for what it's worth, i like the theory Earl proposed about Diamond Jim Brady's electric car being tansferred to the policeman James (Jim) Brady.

I also like the idea that GUEST,Brady Layman proposed, in which the King Brady dime novels influenced the nick-name of King Brady for the policeman.

catherine yronwode

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 09:06 PM

A few random comments about this song.

1. There have been (at least) three threads with Duncan and Brady in the subject line, but none of them are referenced in either of the DigiTrad lyric pages.

2. I own three recordings (van Ronk, Rush, and Nathan Rogers), and on all three this song is track 1. Is it a law that if you record this song, you have to make it the first track on your album?

3. Am I the only one who thinks it odd that (one version of) a murder ballad begins with a reference to the nursery rhyme, Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star? I mean, are there any murder ballads that start, "Jack and Jill went up the hill"? or "Mary had a little lamb"?

4. Am I the only one who thinks it odd that (one version of) the song announces that Brady is going to shoot somebody just to see him die, but then it's Duncan who does the only shooting?

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: iancarterb
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 11:56 PM

GUEST Gerry- I've always thought it was a miraculously GREAT first line, and it would not be out of keeping that a sheriff who had BEEN the law too long would get taken out pre-emptively in a good story!

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 May 07 - 01:51 PM

Of course, the twinkling star is the sherrif's badge...

I surely hope that MOST of you realized that all along, but it probably deserves mention anyway.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: C. Ham
Date: 01 May 07 - 03:56 PM

2. I own three recordings (van Ronk, Rush, and Nathan Rogers), and on all three this song is track 1. Is it a law that if you record this song, you have to make it the first track on your album?

Not all versions are track 1:

Hoyt Axton- track 23
Geoff Bartley- track 14
Gordon Bok- track 4
Wanda Fischer- track 9
Ken Hamm- track 14
Ken Hamm- track 4
Judy Henske- track 9
Koerner, Ray & Glover- track 7
Lead Belly- track 12
Lead Belly- track 33
Bill Morrissey & Greg Brown- track 7
Eddie Pennington- track 19
Harvey Reid- track 5
Nathan Rogers- track 1
Tom Rush- track 1
Tom Rush on a compilation- track 4
Chris Smither- track 8
Dave Van Ronk- track 1
Dave Van Ronk on a compilation- track 12
Dave Van Ronk on another compilation- track 19
Elijah Wald- track 1

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 07 - 04:39 PM

Amazing. I had no idea so many have recorded it!!



A

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 May 07 - 04:41 PM

Kinda makes a person think twice about working up yet another interpretation!

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 May 07 - 08:28 PM

I would be happy to be disabused of the notion that the women dressed up etc. because they were *grieving* at the death of a prestigious bully. It has caused the song to leave a bad taste in my mouth. Of course, such things do happen.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,dr snuggles
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:06 AM

Great version on the new Martin Simpson disc out end of July.

Trying to track down more info after listening to Martin's disc - Mudcat ALWAYS cones up trumps!

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Shine
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM

I've heard a much later version in which the women who dressed up in red came

....."shufflin' up the street
In they sweet little shimmies
And they black-stockin' feet.
Been OFF the job too long."

Brady's demise had allowed them to return to their profession.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Mike Thompson
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:28 PM

I remember an EP in the late 50s with 'Brady and Duncan' as one of four songs.
Another was 'Long time man' and yet another 'Get along little dogies'

I am sure that they were sung by Alan Lomax, but can find no references in any web search.
Can anyone help, as I really rated this record?

(The fourth song may have had the phrase 'Cow cow yippee' in it - it's a long time ago !! )

Alsager CTC 1958-60   Group 3

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:57 PM

Dear Mike Thompson,
                  Just to confirm our telephone conversation, I cannot believe the timing. As I was composing this, post haste, suddenly you were on the phone!!
                  I have the E.P., "Alan Lomax Sings", issued under the "Nixa Jazz Today Series", #NJE 1055 (Pye Record Group). Alan Lomax sings, "That`s All Right", "Long Time Man", "Abilene" and "Brady". I`ll get a c.d. done for you a.s.a.p.
                                             Regards,
                                              John

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Les B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM

Funny, I always assumed in both "Ella Speed" and "Brady" that when the women re-ragged in red they were celebrating because someone they didn't like was dead.

After all, Ella Speed was "downtown just havin' her lovin' fun" so she was either attracting the attention of some other woman's man, or, as a prostitute, competing for money. I figured it was pure jealousy.

Similarly, in Brady, - "When the women all heard King Brady was dead they went on home and re-ragged in red, Came downtown just a singin' this song, Brady's struttin' in hell with his big Stetson on" -
Seems like they were just glad to have a bully/authority figure out of the way - perhaps as suggested in one post above, so they could return to street walking ???

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:48 AM

doesn't that dresed in red business come up in a song called Louis Collins as well.

these recurring things in folksongs, I'm not ever so keen on. Not in English, not in American and Irish folksongs either - I call it 'the seven long years syndrome'.

Its like talking to your Dad or your Grandad, and you want to shake him by the throat and say - you told me this story a million times before.....the first time when I was eight and it wasn't interesting then!

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:44 AM

WLD, if you don't like recurring themes, you must find folk and traditional music very annoying(?).

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:33 PM

Well lets put it this way. I have no trouble in seeing why a lugubrious piece like Louis Collins died out and I'm not totally convinced of the wisdom of reviving it, or the long term survival of such a song.

Similarly I'd could cheerfully watch half the English folksongs consigned to the dustbin area of the folk library.

I know its not a popular view on Mudcat, where anything tradtional is 'good' and anything ordinary folk are likely to go around the streets singing spontaneously is a bit iffy. 'two legs good, four legs bad' sort of aesthetic judgement.

Still its the way I think and feel. and yes I think some halfway decent songs in the traditional canon are buggered up by someone looking over his left shoulder and going away for seven long years - because obviously some peasant has forgotten the real words and decided to plug the gap with something from another song.

Oh by the way, doesn't that 'dressing in red bit' come in some versions of Whitehouse Blues.

i rest my case

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:51 PM

The other thing that is worth noting is the way some 'writers in the tradition' take dull folk songs as some sort paradigm or justification for THEM writing excruciatingly dull folk type songs.

All this:-

It was on the first of August.....nonsense

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Cory from Iowy
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:02 PM

WLD, part of the beauty of these songs is they become slowly evolving amalgamations of various artists POVs as they are handed down. Sure some artists are taking more than they give, but the best bits can always be reused and recycled, much like traditional story telling. I'm amazed how this one song has inspired so much variation in theme and mood. It's a testament to how the themes of many of these dull folk songs will remain relevant as long as human nature and music coexist.

This thread is a microcosm of that. Look at the age of it. How many BB threads span over a decade?

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Brendan Silveira
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:09 PM

For anyone that was a fan of the Outlaws (Waylon and Willie and the boys), you should listen to Tompall Glaser's version of 'Duncan and Brady' from his album Outlaw. Tompall was the forgotten Jewish outlaw.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Anton Redman
Date: 11 May 09 - 05:29 PM

The Martin Simpson version is great and I know a fair number of the others. Electric like steam cars were not uncommon between 1905 and 1925 so why has nobody found any historic links ?

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Tom L from Chico CA
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 07:45 PM

Check out Tom Rush's extended talking version on 2008 cd "Trolling for Owls". He said that he learned it from Spider John Koerner.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Dr John
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:37 PM

Dr C P Lee of Salford, late of Albertos Y Lost Trios Paranoias, has a grand version downloadable from his website www.cplee.co.uk, as performed regularly by his band The Salford Sheiks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,nicolas
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 08:31 AM

Thanks everybody for this great discussion, I learnt a lot

I'm doing a series of post on my blog River's Invitation about black ballads and I was searching for info about Duncan and Brady

Thank you guys

I guess I'll be back !

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,nicolas
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 08:43 AM

Of course I've linked to this thread

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: TinDor
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 11:37 AM

Many of these St Louis area folk/muder ballads are mention in

Stagolee Shot Billy
By Cecil Brown

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Lord Moosejoy, Bart
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:45 AM

There is an interesting article at
The Delta Blues Web Site
Entitled "The Truth about Duncan and Brady, it begins: "Roughly 130 years ago, an event would transpire that would serve as the basis for the murder ballad Duncan and Brady that is still commonly played to this day. On October 6, 1880, Patrolman James Brady was shot and killed at the Charles Starkes Saloon in downtown Saint Louis, Missouri. A man by the name of Harry Duncan would be arrested, convicted and executed for the crime..."

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 10:31 AM

Dunno whether anyone else has mentioned this in the 12 years that this thread has been running. However, Ledbelly's version had "In walked Brady with a shining star". Which strikes me as a lot more likely than having him arrive on an electric car.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:53 PM

Versions mentioned in previous threads other than Lead Belly's had 'shining star', and 'shiny car' also was well-used. Some versions did not have this line.

The first electric carriage was invented in the 1830s but the imorovement of the storage battery put some on the road in the 1880s. By 1897, they were used as taxis in New York.
It is unlikely that an electric car figured in the event since they were expensive, short-range 'toys' at the time.

The first hybrid (gasoline/electric) appeared in 1916 but was never commercially produced.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:11 PM

A few dates of the actual event:
Oct. 6, 1880. Patrolman James Brady shot and killed at the Charles Starkes saloon, in a "hail of bullets" as police tried to make arrests following a brawl.
Harry Duncan arrested and convicted.
A series of appeals kept Duncan alive until July 7, 1894, when he was hanged.
The case was finally decided by the Supreme Court when the appeal was denied. African-American attorney Walter Moran Farmer presented Duncan's case, and was the first of his race to appear before the court.
Duncan alleged that the bar owner, Charles Starkes, shot Brady.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,Steve Lohmeyer
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:53 PM

So I'm still working on my book of parallel versions of folk songs recorded by multiple artists during the folk music revival period of the 50's and 60's.

I own about 5,000 recordings that I consider "folk songs" which were recorded by at least three artists that I consider "folk artists" during that period.

I've got recordings of "Brady and Duncan" (cross listed as "Duncan and Brady" and "Brady, Brady, Brady") by Lead Belly, Dave Van Ronk, Tom Rush, Dave Guard & Whiskeyhill Singers, Judy Henske, and Hoyt Axton.

But try though I might I can't transcribe the first two lines of the Whiskey Hill Singer's version!?!

What the heck are the words up to "electric car?"

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: reynard
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 11:55 AM

Re Electric cars-
Obviously the original Brady didn't arrive in an electric car. The shooting occurred in 1880. The first (3 wheel) electric car was made in France in 1881, followed by London (1882) Boston (1888) and Iowa (1890). (Encyclopaedia Britannica 1985)

    Somebody suggested this as a confusion with Diamond Jim Brady who is primarily famous for two things- his enormous meals and for being the first person in New York City to own an automobile (in 1895). Nice quote-

"To Long Branch, the gambler Diamond Jim Brady brought Lillian Russel. Brady designed and commissioned an electric car with a rounded glass front, with no headlights but a hundred bulbs in that transparent interior, where the couple could seat themselves on display, two large-bodied people adorned with brocades and sparkling jewelry, gliding silently at dusk down the oceanfront promenade, trailed by a procession of spare cars, each chauffeured and ready to serve in case of mechanical failure."
Thousands of Broadways: dreams and nightmares of the American small town By Robert Pinsky

    There is another possible confusion, however- not mentioned above- with Charles Brady King- who was an engineer, artist, mystic and inventor.   King test drove his (not electric) first car in Detroit on March 6, 1896, at speeds up to seven miles per hour. King provided parts, instructions and assistance to Henry Ford for his first car. This would explain why James Brady is called "King" Brady in the song.

Subject: Australian pub song
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 13 - 08:02 PM

I like to have a beer with Duncan

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST,tim page
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 01:06 PM

Hi Stewie
"Horses and the hacks all formed a line"
See (google it) pdf 80245 new world records.
Hope this relieves an itch. Iknow what it is like.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: GUEST, Paul Slade
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 10:54 AM

Prompted by a reader's letter to my website (PlanetSlade.com), I recently did some research on this song. I dug out the original newspaper reports of the real gun battle that inspired it, and you can read my description of that battle and its consequences here.
.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 02:02 PM

Thanks, Paul -- I'll definitely have to spend more time exploring your website. Looks great!

The story of Duncan and Brady (1890) is the second song background in the 2015 book Hear My Sad Story: The True Tales that inspired Stagolee, John Henry, and other traditional American folk songs by Richard Polenberg.

The book breaks down songs by the headings St. Louis, Lying Cold On the Ground, Bold Highway Men and Outlaws, Railroads, Workers, Disasters, and Martyrs. It gives the stories behind 27 songs as well as who wrote the song and who were the first to record it (I read the book with my iPad in hand so I could listen to YouTube videos of early and later recordings).

Linn

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Chris Amos
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 10:44 AM

Hi,

That fount of all knowledge Wikipedia has
this to say on the subject including a dood discography.

chris

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Cool Beans
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 11:07 AM

Earlier this year some anonymous copy editor at the New York Times paid homage to the song with a headline ("Dunkin or Brady?") on a story about Boston sports fans' split loyalty between the Dunkin Donuts Center and football star Tom Brady.

Subject: RE: Origins: Duncan and Brady
From: Cool Beans
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 11:10 AM

The actual headline...

Brady vs. Dunkin': Rank the New England Institutions

Subject: Will Starks Stackerlee & Brady from 1897
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 15 Apr 21 - 09:57 PM

Here are recordings Will Starks made for Alan Lomax in 1942, including versions of "Duncan And Brady" and "Stackerlee" that he recalled learning in 1897 from a guy who had learned them in St. Louis.

https://archive.culturalequity.org/taxonomy/term/5925

Subject: RE: Will Starks Stackerlee & Brady from 1897
From: cnd
Date: 15 Apr 21 - 11:34 PM

Thanks for sharing! I've been enjoying listening through them.