BS: Some people are sick

Subject: Some people are sick
From: weepiper
Date: 18 May 02 - 04:09 PM

I am so angry!!!

Got home from work to discover some twisted &*%$er had smashed a vodka bottle all over the doorstep right under the catflap. I'm pretty sure it was a deliberate attempt to hurt the cats because whoever it was had broken it all into little pieces and spread it over a good eight-foot square area (there was even some inside the door). Took ten minutes to get it all cleaned up safely. Fortunately I don't think the cats had been outside since it happened because they both seem ok.

Snaarrrrlll if I get my hands on whoever did it I'll grind broken glass into their bare feet and see how they like it.

Putting on a smiley face now and going to play angry pipe tunes at a session...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 May 02 - 04:18 PM

So don't let yer cat's out...

It's better for the neighbourhood... it's better for the cats... and it's better for you...

Our newest kitten was born in the Animal Shelter, and have never set food outside (except for one quick sniff while I was helping haul band equipment out the other night) and never will...

Even nearly feral cats adapt VERY well to being indoor animals, especially if provided with even basic indoor entertainment...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 May 02 - 04:48 PM

piper - so sorry. It takes a sick, angry mind to do something like that. It might be worthwhile to report it to the police just to have it on record.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: kendall
Date: 18 May 02 - 04:54 PM

People who hate cats are control freaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Jock Morris
Date: 18 May 02 - 05:09 PM

Cats are wild animals and should, if possible, be allowed outside. Mine are kept in while I'm at work and overnight, but get to wander morning and evening. They get their freedom, I know they're reasonably safe and the birds don't have to worry too much.

Hope the evil b*****d who broke the bottle suffers a long slow agonising death.

Weepiper, have I ever met you? I know a few players of small pipes in Edinburgh.

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 02 - 05:13 PM

Sorry to hear that, weepiper, but I also have to agree with Clinton...much better, imo, to keep them inside. Still, whoever would do such a thing is a damned sick bastard!

(Sorry, Jock, it is my belief that most cats who are pets have had the "wild" bred out of them, generations ago. I know they can still slice and dice, but several I know wouldn't know what to do with a bird if it landed on their nose!*bg*)

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 02 - 05:44 PM

Yeah, and the cats that 'play' with half dead birds and rodents are pretty sick bastards too...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 May 02 - 06:02 PM

Well, I think it is a sick thing indeed. I'm not a particular cat fancier, having been awakened at 4 am way too many times by plaintive meowing, but I don't understand anyone wanting to hurt an animal. I find cats annoying as a species, but likeable in individual cases. Hope you catch the culprit, piper.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:10 PM

Cats aren't stupid, they would have smelt the vodka (yeah, and you reckon water don't smell either) and either been very VERY cautious or just not gone out at all...

LTS cat employee since 1978.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Peg
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:18 PM

Oh, that is awful! People who do cruel things to animals perplex me...I mean, why? It's like men beating up women or raping children--makes them feel powerful but they prey on helpless beings. Pathetic.

re: cats outdoors, my kitties are mostly indoors but nothing will stop ole Ziggy (15 years young and veteran of a near-death experience probably involving a hit and run) from wanting to go outside. Now that he has slowed down a bit I let him out when I am gardening or otherwise doing something around the house. He never strays far and knows to stay out of the street. I don't think it's so bad to acclimate kittnes to being outside, just in case they find themselves there accidentally and don't get freaked out. But adult cats raised indoors usually are skittish of going out and get very disoriented if let out accidentally...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: kendall
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:24 PM

Guest, nature is not cruel; nature doesn't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Dead Horse
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:36 PM

Lonesome EJ said:-"I find cats annoying as a species, but likeable in individual cases."
I find that people are annoying as a species, but likeable in individual cases. A bit trite, but very true. And I much pre-fur cats. (or catters)

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 May 02 - 07:42 PM

That's true Horse. And what's worse, humans tend to use the whole Earth as their litter box.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 May 02 - 08:11 PM

I disagree, I've never crapped in a sand dune.

Or the garden....

Or the beach....

Or the front room carpet.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Tweed
Date: 18 May 02 - 08:56 PM

LOL!! Good on you Liz! ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 May 02 - 08:57 PM

That's not what micca said.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Amergin
Date: 18 May 02 - 08:57 PM

well...you are one up on me there, Liz.....

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 May 02 - 11:16 PM

Not only do cats do very well indoors, they don't get injured, poisoned, or mauled by other animals. I live with more cats than a sane person would tolerate and none of my cats have been outside for 30 years. And all have died natural deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: khandu
Date: 18 May 02 - 11:29 PM

???? misophist, have you kept the ones that died of natural causes in your house for thirty years????

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Jock Morris
Date: 19 May 02 - 05:54 AM

Thread drift: Liz, you may not have directly used the beach as your litter box, but given the state of the UK sewage treatment system, that's exactly where a fair percentage of your motions will have ended up.

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: gnu
Date: 19 May 02 - 06:07 AM

That's beyond sick. Hopefully, the perpetrator gets caught by the police, charged and publically humiliated, along with being taught right from wrong so that it doesn't happen again. Plus, a couple hundred hours of community service at an animal shelter would be helpful. Although walking the sicko barefoot through broken glass does sound somewhat appealing... while drinking some cat pee... and meowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Fiolar
Date: 19 May 02 - 06:58 AM

Take some small comfort from the fact that it was only a broken bottle unlike those sick bastards in Huddersfield who fire-bombed a house resulting in the deaths of five little girls and their two relatives. It's a sad bad world people. The latest craze according to today's paper "The Observer" is the videoing of the torture and killing of animals including kittens and hamsters. I truly hope that there is a hell in which the spirits of the abused creatures can take their revenge on those scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 May 02 - 12:32 PM

OK Jock, as a former resident of Dorset, I'm well aware that a fair percentage of what Weymouth deposits ends up just off Portland (hence the song, several million years ago, to the tune of Mull of Kintyre.... Portland Bill, the smell rolling in from the Sewer outlet pipe, and over the hills of Portland Bill...) and I've been swimming off Sidmouth beach (up the end by the yatch club.... suspiciously warm patch with "floaters"....) so I guess, in a round about way, my kaka has ended up on a beach, but I have never personally deposited any, regardless of what anyone says. The odd widdle in a ditch, with a cry of 'need', when there hasn't been a Hackney cab available, but never solids. Seaweed makes a particularly bad substitute for toilet paper.

Getting back to the subject, although I am an animal lover and cat employee for over 20 years, I can't help feeling that this is a little small compared with some of the greater cruelties that man inflicts on man...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: weepiper
Date: 19 May 02 - 12:56 PM

Undoubtedly it doesn't compare with firebombing a house, no. I just don't understand why anyone would want to do it. It's shan. Like bullying, I never understood that either.

My two cats have always been outdoor cats and I'm not going to stop them now. On the rare occasions we have had to keep them in for a couple of days (after vaccinations) they kept up a near constant wall-of-death around the house. Fortunately we live along a pedestrian pathway and they both have a healthy fear of the road at the end, in fact they never seem to go out of eyeshot anyway...

Jock/Scott (which is it???) - I don't believe I know you... my real name is Holly, I play whistles, small pipes and border pipes. Does that ring any bells?

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: 53
Date: 19 May 02 - 01:09 PM

My neighbor has 4 cats that they keep in the house. They usually bring them out in the afternoon for a walk, and boy, those cats act and mind just like a dog. She calls to them when its time for them to go in and they line up at the door and go in. It's amazing. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 19 May 02 - 01:15 PM

*LOL* That must be a sight to see, Bob!

As for keeping cats in permanently or semi-permanently, its been my (admittedly fairly limited) experience that some cats accept it, & some dont.

DOGS roaming free is another matter though.....

...& back to the original point, yes, some people evidently are sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 02 - 01:52 PM

"shan" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Jock Morris
Date: 19 May 02 - 04:31 PM

Holly, were you in the Tiq on Thursday, sitting round by the fire? If that wasn't you then I don't think we've met:-) If you were, then I was the one playing concertina across the other side of the session.

Scott <-real name

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 02 - 05:56 PM

Cats are vermin.

The 'owners' let them out, allow them to kill all the other wildlife in sight, have no problem when they dig up and shit on their neighbours gardens, and justify it as being 'natural' if anyone complains.

Whilst I don't condone the actions of the person that the initial poster in this thread complained about, cats are a pain and shouldn't be kept in urban gardens.

They cause far much more damage than rats, mice etc

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST,Bullfrog Jones (on the road)
Date: 19 May 02 - 06:42 PM

Liz -- 'The odd widdle in a ditch...when there hasn't been a Hackney cab available' ? Please, keep on using the ditch!

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Kim C
Date: 20 May 02 - 12:08 PM

My kitty Thumper is a confirmed house cat! He doesn't even want to go outside. He's been out in the front yard maybe three times in the last 12 years, and only under supervision. The only time he ever killed anything was a mouse that had come inside. He ate it and left the little green gall-bladder behind, right in the kitchen floor.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: AliUK
Date: 20 May 02 - 12:17 PM

As the proud ( new)owner of a cat ( Agatha, she's 2 months old and I got her yesterday), I am perplexed by why someone would do something to injure animals like that. This is the first cat I've ever had and I know I would cut the persons balls off if they did that round my house.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Fortunato
Date: 20 May 02 - 12:25 PM

weepiper, I wonder if there's a mistake. That seems a odd way to attack a cat. Why hurl a vodka bottle, with vodka in it no less, at a cat door? I would suspect someone got the wrong house, or was playing a prank. It could be a neighbor who had problems with your cat, but it could be something entirely different. Hope the cats are well.

Fortunato.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 May 02 - 01:24 PM

I have no idea what an "urban garden" is...

but that aside...

GUEST 05:56 PM does have some valid points... cat's will hunt, but quite frankly, when they GUT the local population of ally vermin like squirrles, mice, pidgeons, and the like, I have to admit, I don't really care...

The fact that even a front-declawed cat is a near perfect hunter is yet another reason to keep them indoors...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: weepiper
Date: 20 May 02 - 02:54 PM

Hullo Scott...
Yes that was me! Good session that, shame I was zoned out from being out in the sun all day.

As for the blatant attempts to wind me up from others, it's not working... nyah nyah, I can't hear you.

McGrath, "shan" means shameful and bad. Like picking on someone smaller than you at school.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 May 02 - 03:22 PM

Funny, isn't it, how it's acceptable to be vituperative about cats, who do no deliberate harm to humans, but not to complain about dogs in the same style. There has been a case a few days ago of a child attacked by her neighbour's dogs (now deceased). I was once attacked by Alsatians (called off before biting by an owner who did not acknowledge my presence), and I have to use that incident as an excuse when objecting to doggy behaviour. I would not be tolerated if I said that the mess, their barking at me from next door whenever I dare to use my garden, their close approach to my tent, their slobbering on me, their sniffing at parts I wish to keep private, were objectionable, and that's without calling them vermin, unless I have some reason for it, other than its being objectionable.

When people feel such passion about such things as cats, I wonder why. And I'm very cautious about the association between anti-cattery and the urge to control people and things.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Grab
Date: 20 May 02 - 05:11 PM

Penny, dogs are rarely allowed to roam the streets uncontrolled - if they do, they get captured and either the owner gets fined, the dog gets rehomed or the dog gets put down. They're allowed to run freely in some areas, and the owners are expected to clean up after them (under penalty of a largish fine if they don't and are caught) although there's obviously some antisocial gits who don't. Dog mess does appear, but most dog owners are reasonable ppl and clean up after their dogs. They don't leave the mess in place and say "oh it's only natural" and "well it's a wild animal". And even if a dog is left to run wild, it can't (easily) get into your garden. And dogs rarely attack animals or birds - they'll chase them, but most dogs no longer possess the instincts to know what to do after that.

Cats OTOH - well, cats are a popular pet in towns bcos they're small, but often a cat owner will just put the cat out and let it roam freely. So all the neighbours get cat shit in their gardens. Not just disgusting, but dangerous - toxicara is dangerous for adults (blindness being just one nice effect) and can be fatal for kids, and you catch it by having cat or dog mess on your hands and then rubbing your eyes, wiping your mouth, getting it on a cut, etc. And cats will quite happily kill things for the pleasure of killing, which if you happen to be interested in wildlife or birds, will naturally make you less-than-pleased that your neighbour's cat stalks and kills them. I don't blame the cat, I blame the owner who thinks that just bcos they can't see the cat, whatever it's doing isn't their fault.

Bottom line, anyone living in a town is absolutely responsible for their cat. Believe me, if I could find the owner of the cat(s) that crap in our garden, I would happily place every piece of cat shit I find on their doormat, and see how they like it.

I certainly don't advocate what weepiper had done to him/her - that's downright horrible. But if the person who did it was driven by cats invading their home, then I can understand their frustration, even though I think that what they chose to do is despicable.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 May 02 - 05:17 PM

"And cats will quite happily kill things for the pleasure of killing"

Bollox!!

"Cats cannot be held accountable for their actions, because they have no morals to speak of."

--Amelia Peabody Emerson

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Jock Morris
Date: 20 May 02 - 05:31 PM

My cats, while being allowed out, will actually come back in to use the litter trays; so I don't believe that cat shit in the area is by and large because of my cats. The number of birds in my garden would also suggest that the local wildlife isn't suffering too badly. I've had to put up with numerous complaints about my cats over the years, but it was amazing how they all but stopped when the Siamese who used to live down the street passed away.

By the way, as cats usually bury their crap it tends to be canine toxicara that is the problem.

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: harpmaker
Date: 20 May 02 - 06:18 PM

Ive got to agree with Grab here. All my neighbours have cats & dogs. In my back garden, lovely as it is (Iam a keen gardener) cirtain places stink of cat urine, and the cats are allways pinching and playing with the fish & frogs out of the pond. I dont blame the cats, Its the owners. Weekend just gone; after work we decided to jump in the campervan and go for a little break. Loading the van up with bedding etc, we have to cross a grass verge. Allas we set off, verry nice,--and then,--;--;dog shit, who's stood in DOG SHIT. Well,, it was all over the van carpet, we did our best to clean it up, but you know what its like, we could still smell it on going to bed. I say again, I dont blame the dog/cat, its the owners. luckily, Iam a placid guy, and I can take it in my stride (Thats not to say I like it) But you pet owners should wake up and see how annoying your animals are to other people.(and birds) John.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 02 - 06:33 PM

Jock

"Cats usually bury thier crap" So that makes it OK does it?

The burying in my garden usually involves digging my seedlings up and upturning other plants.

If I ever visit you, I'll just crap under your carpet.

Out of sight...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Jock Morris
Date: 21 May 02 - 11:59 AM

When it comes to children getting covered in animal crap and suffering from toxicara, then yes, burying the crap does make a hell of a big difference (as opposed to dogs who crap in the middle of the grass).
I've kept cats for 12 years now and I'm also a keen gardener; I've yet to lose a plant to the cats.

Guest, if you don't like cats then you won't be coming a visiting me anyway:-)

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SharonA
Date: 21 May 02 - 12:32 PM

Weepiper: I'm sorry to hear about this horrible incident. I agree with those who say that you should keep your cats indoors from now on, for the sake of their own safety. An act of rage such as you describe can only be followed by more of the same, and probably by attempts to kill the cats by capturing or poisoning them.

You can take an outdoor cat indoors and keep him there, as long as you keep him amused. I was the third owner of my (now deceased) cat Chester. Under his first owner he was an indoor cat, but under his second owner, in a trailer park, he was allowed outdoors. He wreaked havoc throughout the park – digging up the neighbors' flowers, clawing the seat of a speedboat, catching birds underneath one old guy's birdhouse (by playing possum until the birds approached him to pull his fur for nesting, then grabbing the birds) – so I took Chester in at about 7 years of age to save him from a trip to the SPCA and probable euthanasia. Because of his destructiveness I had to declaw him, and he was a bit mopey till I got him his own kitten for companionship, but he lived a long, mischievous life and died at the age of 19. So I'm here to tell ya that turning an outdoor cat into an indoor cat can be done!

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Genie
Date: 21 May 02 - 03:46 PM

Jock ,
My cats, like yours, tend to come in to "use the restroom." When they do poop outside, it's usually in my yard. (One of the two actually leaves hers on top of the lawn, like dogs do [no pun intended], as territorial marking.) I'm the one who has to deal with it -- as well as the occasional doggy deposit.

In spite of the fact that I have two cats of my own who spend a good deal of time outdoors in good weather, several neighbors have indoor-outdoor cats, and we have our share of strays in the neighborhood who visit my porch, I find very few 'deposits' either in my garden or on the lawn, and I hear hardly any complaints from any neighbors about any cat problems.

GUEST ,
("Cats...cause far much more damage than rats, mice etc." Maybe. Because there are enough cats around to keep the mice and rat population in control.

As ClintonH. points out, "... they GUT the local population of alley vermin..." .
You can be that if cats didn't help control the population of pigeons and rodents, ANIMAL CONTROL would soon be out there with the poison birdseed and rat pellets.


Re cats as hunters, the several cats I've had over the years have been known to kill mice, pigeons, and one garter snake (which I stupidly tried to set free by turning loose in my yard). The pigeons always get eaten. The mice are given me as tribute. The snake was just left there (probably because it didn't taste good).



Grab,
("...if I could find the owner of the cat(s) that crap in our garden, I would happily place every piece of cat shit I find on their doormat...".
That seems a much more appropriate act of revenge than trying to booby trap the cat door with broken glass.
Since when does "an eye for an eye" call for capital punishment or maiming as the penalty for petty vandalism? (Even if you could apply that label to a defecating cat.)


Liz the Squeak ("I can't help feeling that [leaving broken glass in front of the cat door] is a little small compared with some of the greater cruelties that man inflicts on man...")
Well, yeah, in terms of magnitude, and in terms of direct relevance to our own kind. But cruelty is cruelty. A person who will deliberately inflict pain on another sentient being--be it a possum, a cat, a rabbit, or whatever--is potentially a threat to us human types, too. They may not hurt animals they like or people they're not mad at, but watch out if they define you as an enemy.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: weepiper
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:06 PM

Jings, people...

Grab, I don't believe it was any of my neighbours. My immediate neighbours all like the cats, and next door deals with the crapping in the garden thing by leaving orange peel in her flowerbeds. It seems to work. The cats dig in my flowerbed instead. I have never had a complaint from a neighbour about the cats in the 7 years I've had them. I think it was more likely one of the many unpleasant teenagers that hang around drinking in a playpark across from my house.

SharonA, I was helluva angry about it at the time, but I don't seriously believe someone is going to try to trap or poison my cats... and I can't believe you think declawing a cat is a normal thing to do.

Genie, Scott and Clinton, thankyou for adding voices of reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:12 PM

Me?? The Voice Of Reason???

That's SLANDER!!!!!

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SharonA
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:18 PM

Genie says, "A person who will deliberately inflict pain on another sentient being--be it a possum, a cat, a rabbit, or whatever--is potentially a threat to us human types, too." That's a fact. Weepiper, be careful that your vandal doesn't break a bottle over your head in the future. And that is no joke. I'm concerned for your own safety as well as for the safety of your kitties.

If you haven't reported this incident to the police yet, you should. And if you still have those pieces of glass, give them to the police so they can try to lift fingerprints from the pieces. The yard should be checked for shoeprints, too. If it's too late for any of that, bear it in mind in case there's a repeat of this incident, or a similar one.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:21 PM

Jeez, Sharon

Sure, you're not going a little OTT here???

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: gnu
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:29 PM

CH, I'll give you SLANDER... you've got a soft heart.... calloused, but soft.

As for cats being vermin, I'd rather pet a cat than a rat... and a rat rather than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: weepiper
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:34 PM

Sharon, I appreciate your concern, but I have to agree with Guest 04.21 above... honestly the police have many better things to deal with round here. Like the woman who had her jaw broken the other night by an 18-year old lassie trying to steal her mobile phone, a quarter of a mile further down the path I live on (eek!).

Having been very grateful for the swift arrival of the police a couple of times in the past, I'm reluctant to waste their time with freaking out about petty vandalism, which is what this boils down to really. I'm still narked about it but I'm getting it into perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SharonA
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:40 PM

Well, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I just don't consider it "petty" when it's obvious that your pets – and you – were targeted. The vandal knows they're your pets and is obviously angry at you for letting them out. If I were you, I would surely be freaking out!

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:46 PM

More horses asses in the world than horses...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:51 PM

OTT? No... I really don't think so...

No more than taking a kid who likes to pull the wings off butterflies to therapy is over the top...

Why is it only after the fact that people become really concerned about possible 'warning signs'???

It reminds me of the 4 P's of spouse abuse... 2 of them are Pets and Possessions... If someone will break yer stuff, or harm yer pet, it's not that much of a leap for you to believe that they might harm you...

I'd involve the police if someone booby-trapped my kitty door... abso-frigg'n-lootly...

Especially if it's someone who's willing to cause harm to a living creature over something like a little cat turd...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 02 - 05:59 PM

This is a really bizzare thread!

Someone (probably drunken) threw an empty Vodka bottle at weepiper's door.

He became 'convinced' that it was an 'attack on his cats'

His 'evidence' for this were that the shards of glass extended over an 8m square area and some even went inside! (shock horror!)

Try angryly throwing an empty Spirits bottle against a wall and get the resultant debris not to extend over 8m.

Weepiper is not being attacked by a psychotic neigbour. He's said himself that none of his neighbours have ever had any problems with his cats.

A drunkard threw a bottle, it took him 10 minutes to clear up. Hardly a reason to start DNA testing is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SharonA
Date: 21 May 02 - 08:30 PM

Weepiper's description was: "...whoever it was had broken it all into little pieces and spread it over a good eight-foot square area (there was even some inside the door)." A deliberate act, in other words, not just the throwing and smashing of a bottle against a door, which would have resulted in larger shards, and would probably have left the neck of the bottle whole or nearly whole. Also, if it had been thrown, more of the bottle would probably have made its way inside the cat-door.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 May 02 - 01:28 PM

Hey Guest?

What the hell is wrong with making sure?

Afraid we'll find out it's you?

Subject: On the declawing of cats
From: SharonA
Date: 22 May 02 - 02:28 PM

Okay, this is thread creep, but since Weepiper said to me, "I can't believe you think declawing a cat is a normal thing to do", I feel I should address that.

No, I don't believe that declawing is a "normal" thing to do, but neither is spaying or neutering. Spaying and neutering are done, of course, to keep cats from procreating whether they're outdoor cats or indoor cats. But for indoor cats, neutering has the added advantage of preventing a tomcat from spraying the furniture to mark its territory (or at least lessening the chances thereof!) and creating a more harmonious relationship between pet and pet owner. By the same token, in my opinion and by my experience, declawing an INDOOR-ONLY cat takes away some stress from the owner-pet relationship: the pet won't be yelled at and won't find household articles marked by the owner with repellent or booby-trapped in some way to prevent the cat from "sharpening" its claws, and the owner won't have expensive furniture, drapes or wallpaper ruined by the pet. The cat can still leave its scent with its glands by rubbing its paws on things it would "normally" claw, and it can still grip with its toes during play. What it can't do is defend itself as well when necessary, which is why I stress that only a cat that will be kept indoors ALL THE TIME (or let out into its own pen outside, protected from predators and SUPERVISED) should be a candidate for declawing.

Some say it's cruel to declaw a cat, but I just don't see it as any more cruel than ripping out its sex organs or keeping it inside all its life. If one is going to do those last two not-so-normal things in order to "make a pet" out of a cat, then I don't see anything any more wrong with declawing that pet. In fact, I see it as less cruel than what Chester's previous owner, which was to throw him out – discard him – because he was "bad" by that owner's standard.

(...not that Chester wasn't still naughty when he was my pet; he happily found plenty of ways to get into mischief, even without claws! *G*)

I realize that I'm in the minority by holding a pro-declawing opinion, but I thought I ought to explain that I did not come to that opinion without a lot of thought and deliberation, and I did not do the deed (of sending my cats in for declawing) lightly or frivolously.

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: weepiper
Date: 22 May 02 - 02:50 PM

Hmmm. I still don't like the idea of declawing, but at least you've thought about it a lot. I just assumed it was the 'frivolous' thing. Both of my cats will happily use a scratching post (and trees outside) so I don't see any need for it.

Guest, 'he' is actually a 'she'... and I'm quite capable of arguing for myself thank you. Besides, the glass really was ground up into tiny bits. I'd like to see somebody break a spirit bottle like that just by throwing it at the door.

More thread creep...sort of... even if I was drunk out of my skull I still wouldn't break a bottle in front of a catflap. I don't see that as a valid excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 02 - 04:06 PM

Getting a vasectomy or tubal ligation, or having a hysterectomy is a bit different than having one's first joints broken and cut out, which is really what declawing is all about. If pets were not spayed and neutered the population would be a much greater problem than it already is with irresponsible owners who do not do so. Not getting the urge by going into heat twice a year is a bit different than the daily reminder of having no claws with which to climb and/or defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SharonA
Date: 22 May 02 - 04:58 PM

kat says, "Getting a vasectomy or tubal ligation, or having a hysterectomy is a bit different than having one's first joints broken and cut out, which is really what declawing is all about." Absolutely true, though I was under the impression that in neutering the testicles were removed entirely (which is also a bit different than getting a vasectomy). Am I mistaken about that procedure?

I totally agree that NOT spaying and neutering one's pets contributes to the pet overpopulation problem. Keeping a pet indoors exclusively, and isolated, would keep it from procreating just as well but would be uncomfortable for the pet and for the owner who has to clean up after the pet, listen to the yowling, watch the pet under stress, etc. There's ample testimony that an altered pet is a happier, calmer pet.

Is a declawed pet a happier, calmer pet? Well, calmer, certainly. Chester missed his claws at first because long-standing habits had to be altered, but I'm not sure cats have the kind of brain that would be reminded of the absence of claws on a daily basis. My other cat, Artie, who was declawed when he was neutered, doesn't seem to miss the claws at all and may not even remember having had them in his kittenhood.

Weepiper: Nope, I'm not frivolous where my cats are concerned; I'm painstakingly deliberate! I'm the one who took Artie to a clinic in another state last fall and plunked down $1100 for radiation treatment for his thyroid tumor! He was a scarecrow then, but the picture of health now!!

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: gnu
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:00 PM

I would never declaw a cat. It's cruel. If you have a cat that cannot be broken from destroying furniture, either you have a problem or the cat has a problem. Either way, it can be worked out. Even if the cat has to be put down, it's more humane than declawing. All of mine played with me in wrestling and such games without ever clawing me. Oh, I got clawed, but only when a cat was frightened for some reason. All of mine were taught not to mess with the furniture. It's very simple... growl when they do it and chase them, catch them and bring them back to the furniture they were clawing... if they claw again, GROWL !!! It's not rocket science.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:05 PM

Cats are wild animals. Period. They live to hunt.

To imprison them (entirely against their will) for their entire life in your house, is cruel.

To then declaw them because it "makes them calmer" is even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:17 PM

SharonA, you said you didn't think declawing was any more cruel than having their sex organs "ripped" out, which is rather dramatically put.

Yes, when pets are spayed and neutered, their uterus or testicles are removed. I went on to equate that in human terms. I'd rather have a tubal ligation or hysterectomy (the latter whihc I have done) than have my fingers broken. I wasn't talking about pets having a vasectomy or tubal ligation.

It is a cat's nature to claw...I cannot believe anyone would think they don't have the intelligence to miss it or at least feel something is unsettling. I don't think we'll ever agree, so this is the last I am going to express on this.

Subject: And some people are stupid...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:20 PM

Who's got you imprisoned Guest?

Maybe you should read a thing or 2 about house cats before you make such idiotic, uninformed statements...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:22 PM

I agree totally with you Kat.

SharonA is probably the closest to the thread's title "Some people are sick"

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: gnu
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:37 PM

A flame ? A troll ? Whatever. I know I'm not suppose to but, gee, golly, gosh, I can't help it. GUEST... that was uncalled for (read : FUCK OFF !!)

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:38 PM

Clinton,

I don't keep anything imprisoned, apart from the odd ant that climbs in through the window at night.

In what sense is my statement idiotic? Cats are natural prowlers. To keep them inside is denying them their instincts and natural lifestyle.

Please explain my idiocy.

Thank you

Subject: Sheesh... Some people...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:42 PM

Read a good book on house cats, and you'll see exactly how many of your premises are false...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: gnu
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:42 PM

Ooops ! Time for tea and meditation (read medication... a few Buds and watch the game.) See you all tomorrow night.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: gnu
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:42 PM

Ooops ! Time for tea and meditation (read medication... a few Buds and watch the game.) See you all tomorrow night.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:42 PM

gnu,

go away unless you have something interesting/constructive to add

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:48 PM

Clinton

Read a good book on house cats

is, if I might say, a pretty lame answer.

If you can't manage a defense of your own, at least tell me which book I should read that defends (to my mind) an indefensible viewpoint

Subject: RE: BS: Some people just like to argue
From: Jeri
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:58 PM

Cats prowl, whether indoors or outdoors. There's probably less of a chance of getting squashed by a car, eaten by another animal, catch a disease, eat poison or get caught in some sort of trap if the animal's kept inside. If not allowed out, it might not have as much fun.

As for de-clawing vs spaying, spaying is a very invasive procedure requiring complete anesthetization. We do it to prevent having to have kittens we have to find homes for or put to sleep. De-clawing isn't that invasive, but having accidentally "de-clawed" on of my digits, I wouldn't want to go through having all of them done. I've never had any internal surgery, so I wouldn't know how painful that is. We de-claw cats to save our furniture and wooden bits of our houses. My guess is the cats are probably not fond of either procedure. One procedure is not more cruel than the other. The difference between the two is SOLELY whether we perceive the benefits are worth the pain to the animals. It's going to vary from person to person, and as we've seen time and time again, when you tell somebody else what their opinion should be - what they should think is important, they get honked off. You ain't in their shoes.

Flame bait!

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 02 - 06:12 PM

jeri

One procedure is not more cruel than the other

YES it is.

If you 'chopped' my fallopian tubes I couldn't have children.

If you cut off the top joints of my fingers, I couldn't play the fiddle.

You can't say these are of similar importance. Fiddle playing is far more important. *grin*

Seriously though, keeping a cat inside for its whole life, or declawing it, is a pretty selfish thing to do.

I find it difficult to understand how people who put the appearance of their furniture above the welfare of their pets manage to call themselves 'cat lovers'

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Genie
Date: 23 May 02 - 03:44 AM

Under certain circumstances (e.g., living in an urban apartment) I might keep a cat totally indoors--preferably from kittenhood. But I fail to see why some folks are so all-fired upset about the idea that some domestic cats are outdoor or indoor-outdoor cars. Urban areas have a variety of critters prowling about --rabbits, mice, rats, pigeons, bats, raccoons, possums, stray dogs, cats, etc.--sometimes even deer, geese, etc. Yes, they do sometimes mess up people's gardens, etc. But to have no critters roaming about would diminish us more, I think, than the loss of a few carrots, tulips, sparrows, and manicured lawns. And I fail to see why cats prowling about is inherently worse than having, say, wild bats, peacocks, raccoons, etc. Personally, I would be very sad if the music available were the music of big name stars without animal names.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 23 May 02 - 04:24 AM

I personally am amazed that anyone would want to keep a cat indoors all the time. Seems all wrong to me. Mine all like to be out and about doing the rounds of friendly neighbours' laps (& kitchens) and meeting up & mooching around with the other cats.
Amoret's two cats were confined until 6 months old (on the advice of a vet) - but were clearly absolutely desperate to get out. They roam free now and are happier for it. They might have a shorter life, but it is a happy one.
My oldest cat spent the first 5 or so years as a house cat by choice, and would get really distressed if taken outside. Then he spent the next 4 or so years as a garden cat and would get really distressed if taken indoors. He does a bit of both now. Mad cat - but I think its better for him to do what he wants. I see it as living with cats, rather than owning cats.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 May 02 - 04:55 AM

moew Peolple should think about buying a Hamster, they never cause any trouble.john

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 May 02 - 05:05 AM

but dont puy 2 hamsters in the same cage or they will fight and dont give them chocolate because it blocks their chhek pouches up, you can get some really smart hamster houses, they look like space ships.i saw one in the local paper 200 pounds hamster house for 25 pound! i phoned up straight awaey buy it had already gone.look at www.rotostack.com or it might be .co.uk I am nit sure and I am going to the cake shop in a minute.john

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SharonA
Date: 23 May 02 - 09:54 AM

Jeri says, of altering and declawing cats, "My guess is the cats are probably not fond of either procedure. One procedure is not more cruel than the other. The difference between the two is SOLELY whether we perceive the benefits are worth the pain to the animals. It's going to vary from person to person..." This very much reflects my own viewpoint, but let me add (referring to gnu's post) that cats are probably not fond of being put down simply because they won't break what a human thinks is a "bad" habit, either.

As Jeri says, opinion varies on these issues. I've expressed my opinion about declawing, and the reasons I hold that opinion, but I certainly don't think that declawing should be done to every cat, or even to every indoor cat.

Declawing my cat works for me, in my situation, because I live alone and go to work and therefore can't be around the apartment all the time to reinforce the training of a cat not to claw. It's not just the economical consideration of replacing my furniture or the apartment's carpeting (which I'd have to pay for out of my security deposit) that concerns me as much as the SAFETY issue of the window screens: if the cat claws a hole through the screen and takes a notion to jump out after a bird (and, believe me, my cat would!), he's going to fall from the second story and very likely injure himself. Even if he walked away from that fall, he'd still be close to a four-lane road (where an apartment- neighbor's indoor-outdoor cat was run over 2 years ago) (by the way, that neighbor lost another of his cats when it was accidentally shut in a shed down the street for several weeks, and was too close to death to survive once found).

As it is, I can simply let my cat rub his paws on the screens, the furniture, the bedding, and my pants-leg without stressing him by yelling or growling at him or shaking a soda can full of gravel or any of that. It makes for a more peaceful and harmonious relationship between me and my cat. Some people are of the opinion that that relationship is the "bottom line", the reason to have pets in the first place. I understand that others are of the opinion that an animal must be kept as close to its "wild nature" as possible, no matter what the cost to the humans in the same household, and that to surgically alter an animal in any way is "sick". Still others think that some surgical procedures are okay while others are not. It's a judgment call, so please let us not sit in judgment of one another over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST,Firecat at college
Date: 23 May 02 - 10:41 AM

I don't mean to sound like I'm interfering here, but unless I've not read the whole thread properly it seems to have gone off topic thanks to GUEST's horrible posts.

GUEST, if you don't like cats, you don't like cats. Fair enough, that's your opinion, but some people (myself included) do like them. Mind you, I'm a bit biased, having been around cats all my life (we've currently got 15!). There's no reason to be nasty. I can't stand dogs because I'm canophobic (if that's the right word for being scared of them), but you wouldn't catch me saying horrible things about them.

I agree that the attack is sick and only smebody with a twisted mind would do something like that, but I don't see any reason to discriminate against creatures of the feline kind because of this.

Please don't think of me the wrong way for this. As regular Mudcatters will know, its very rare I get to this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 02 - 10:49 AM

Nearly right, Firecat

Cynophobia is the fear of dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: guinnesschik
Date: 23 May 02 - 07:21 PM

Cats may be natural predators and prowlers, but mine only likes to go outside to roll in the sun and eat grass. She doesn't know how to "use the restroom" out of doors, and if she's accidentally gotten out for a few hours, she runs to the litterbox first thing upon entering the house.

Shouting when she starts to claw something of value works quite nicely, and we all get our exercise chasing her away from my LPS. (Which the dog really seems to enjoy.)

I'd much rather folks let their cats roam than their dogs, although we have a fair share in our neighborhood who do both.

Weepiper, I do think you should go to the authorities with this, simply because it's trespassing, if nothing else. Hope you find the "perps."

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 02 - 07:34 PM

Sharon A

Whilst I disagree with most of your views on 'cat keeping' I think that it's commendable that you've stuck in with your views on the thread and said what you think.

All the best to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 May 02 - 07:35 PM

My "predators" stick to bumble bees and spiders. Haven't killed one yet. They too eat grass and then run into the house to cough up hairballs and make deposits in the litter box. To be fair, all four were indoor cats in NYC and have no real hunting skills. One actually squawks and coos as she "sneaks up" on a bird or squirrel. They look at her as if she is daft and move on. Better than a bell.

I believe I would react to a broken bottle at my doorway as a threat and invasion of my space if not my home. weepiper has every reason to be angry. Hope this is a onetime event perpetrated by a drunken lout who didn't even know whose house it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 02 - 07:42 PM

Of course it's a onetime event perpetrated by a drunken lout

We needed you earlier in this thread

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Genie
Date: 24 May 02 - 01:27 PM

Naw, Sinsull,
Thinking like Gary Larson, I'm pretty sure
THE DOG DID IT!

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 02 - 01:42 PM

Maybe a rival tomcat did it? *BSEG*

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST,Firecat at college
Date: 28 May 02 - 06:43 AM

To the guest who told me what the fear of dogs is called, thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:40 PM

Most People Are Well

Sorry About You

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: Genie
Date: 29 May 02 - 02:27 PM

BTW, the fear of cats is, I think,

ailurophobia

which would make the love of cats:

ailurophilia

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are sick
From: SharonA
Date: 29 May 02 - 02:41 PM

Genie: You are correct! (from the Greek ailouros meaning "cat") A cat fancier is an ailurophile.