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Origins: Peggy Seeger's Naming of Names

DMcG 26 May 02 - 09:54 AM
Susanne (skw) 26 May 02 - 07:15 PM
DMcG 27 May 02 - 03:28 AM
Susanne (skw) 27 May 02 - 06:34 PM
Jim Dixon 29 May 02 - 11:01 AM
Wolfgang 30 May 02 - 05:58 AM
DMcG 30 May 02 - 06:18 AM
Wolfgang 03 Jun 02 - 09:52 AM
Wolfgang 05 Jun 02 - 05:50 AM
DMcG 05 Jun 02 - 07:43 AM
Jim Dixon 07 Jun 02 - 12:11 PM
DMcG 07 Jun 02 - 02:33 PM
Wolfgang 09 Jun 02 - 08:32 AM
Wolfgang 09 Jun 02 - 08:36 AM
Wolfgang 09 Jun 02 - 08:47 AM
Jim Dixon 11 Jun 02 - 10:19 AM
Wolfgang 12 Jun 02 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,jack Warshaw 02 Nov 10 - 06:53 AM
Leadfingers 02 Nov 10 - 07:19 AM
Dave Hanson 02 Nov 10 - 11:25 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 10 - 11:39 AM
Dave Hanson 03 Nov 10 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,jack warshaw 26 Apr 13 - 06:33 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM
Uke 28 Apr 13 - 02:42 AM
Uke 29 Apr 13 - 12:29 AM
Jim McLean 29 Apr 13 - 06:41 AM
Uke 29 Apr 13 - 07:59 PM
Uke 30 Apr 13 - 09:11 PM
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Subject: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 02 - 09:54 AM

I have the CD but not the lyrics. I think it would also be a useful DTStudy-type thing to expand on the names mentioned, perhaps by linking to other sites rather than copying everything here.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 May 02 - 07:15 PM

DMcG, it might help if you put up the tracklist so that people could point you to individual songs.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 02 - 03:28 AM

Sorry, I've misled you. I meant the song 'Naming of Names', not the CD of the same name. If there is no-one who has the lyrics of the song I will attempt to transcribe them but as the song contains a large number of names, it is is to mis-spell them.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 27 May 02 - 06:34 PM

I see. Sorry, I'd help but I haven't got the song. Have you tried Peggy Seeger's website. I think it's simply www.peggyseeger.com, and she is said to be very helpful if you eMail her .


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 May 02 - 11:01 AM

According to the track list at Cooking Vinyl, the correct title of the song is "We Remember (Naming of Names)". There is a sound sample at amazon.com and another at CDNOW, where authorship is credited to "Seeger/Traditional."

Here are the names I recognized in the sound sample:
[William] Wallace (hung and drawn and quartered)
Carmen Quintana (set on fire)
Victor Jara
Patrice Lumumba
Garcia Lorca
Mother Jones


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 May 02 - 05:58 AM

It's in the new McColl songbook. But even in there, some names are misprinted. I can post it next week.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 02 - 06:18 AM

Thanks to all for your help so far.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 09:52 AM

I have the MacColl songbook with me now, but it's not in there. After some moments of surprise it dawned upon me that this song is in the new Peggy Seeger songbook. 'We remember' is a Seeger song (with perhaps the tune by MacColl). So tomorrow I bring the Peggy Seeger songbook with me and post it.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: We remember
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 05:50 AM

I remember that I had promised to do this. If Jim is right then the song below is the one that was wanted.

I have seen this song attributed to MacColl or to MacColl/Seeger in other places, but in Peggy Seeger's songbook she doesn't credit MacColl at all (she usually does in other songs). The tune she writes is "traditional Scots Gaelic".

She writes too that this song "can be constantly updated". The names below are the names she was singing "at the time of writing". So you may have heard other versions with other names.

Most of the names are known to me but I'll restrict comments to the German names guessing that these names are not well known to many of you. Two of the German names mean nothing to me. I'd appreciate comments who might be meant. It would be fine collective job to make notes to each of the names in this song. I have made a start.

Wolfgang

WE REMEMBER (alt. title: NAMING OF NAMES)
(Peggy Seeger/ tune. trad.)

Name the comrades
Still in prison!
Name the comrades
Dead and gone!
Gone, vanished,
Name our comrades!
I remember
We remember!

Kazim Arli
Still in prison!
Karen Silkwood
Dead and gone!
Juan Hernandez
Gone, vanished!
Don't forget them
We remember.

Nelson Mandela
Long in prison!
Joe Hill
Long gone!
Murielita
No one knows!
Don't forget them
We remember!

Ernst Thälmann (1)
Died in prison!
Bobby Sands
Died in prison!
John MacLean
Died in prison!
Nameless millions
Died in prison!

Wallace hung and
Drawn and quartered
!
Carmen Quintana
Set on fire!
Scholl and Scheer and Schwartz (2)
Beheaded!
Victor Jara
Died singing!

Patrice Lumumba
Garçía Lorca
Kobayashi
Mother Jones
Karl and Rosa (3)
All murdered!
Don't forget them
We remember!

Sing with pride
Sing with joy
Sing today
Sing tomorrow
Sing them down
Sing them down
Brave comrades
We remember!

We remember
Cesar Sandino
We remember
Manuel Quisquina
We remember
The Birmingham Six
And Tom Mooney
We remember

Sing their names
Eduardo Mondlaine
Sing their names
James Connolly
Sing their fame
The nameless comrades
I remember
We remember!

We remember
Those in prison!
We remember
Those who died!
Don't forget them
We remember -
They died for us
They live forever.
!

Notes: The parts in italics are sung by a small group, the other parts by a solo singer.

(1) Ernst Thälmann: 1886-1944, chairman of the German communist party, presidential candidate in 1932 (third place behind von Hindenburg and Hitler), shot by order of Hitler in Buchenwald concentration camp. Seeger's spelling Taelmann is incorrect, Thaelmann would be an acceptable variant.
"Ich träumte von Teddy Thälmann
Die Nacht einen schönen Traum.
Er war entfloh'n aus dem Kerker,
die Nazis schrien wild..."
(W. Biermann, Ernst Thälmann)

(2) Scholl is a kind of generic name. Hans and Sophie Scholl were siblings beheaded by the Nazis on Feb 22, 1943. They were members of the Weiße Rose (white rose) movement. Their crime: writing and distribution of anti-Nazis pamphlets. I don't know who is meant by the other two names. Both names are not known to me as members of the Weiße Rose. Seeger's spelling Shehr is definitely incorrect, Scheer is the most probable spelling, Scher is remotely possible. Schwartz could also be spelled Schwarz, but both names don't ring a bell.

(3) Karl and Rosa are Karl Liebknecht (1871-1919) and Rosa Luxemburg (1871-1919), communist leaders, members of the Spartacus League, tortured and murdered without trial by right-wing militia on Jan 15, 1919. When the murderers, German officers, were on trial the public prosecutor started his speech with the words: "When on January 16th the papers brought the news of the violent death of Dr. Karl Liebknecht and Ms. Rosa Luxemburg, many may have thought and many even spoken the words: Thank God for that." No wonder that the highest sentence for one of the accused was 2 years and four months.
"Karl Liebknecht und Luxemburg, Rosa,
so muss es den Menschen ja geh'n,
lebendig und totgeschlagen
hab' ich sie noch beide geseh'n..."
(W. Biermann, Hugenottenfriedhof)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 07:43 AM

Many thanks, Wolfgang, that is the song I was looking for.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 12:11 PM

Say, folks, I think it would be a great idea if we could assemble a list of links to sites that give information about the people mentioned in this song.

I tried it a bit, but it ain't easy. Some of the Hispanic names are so common that they bring up lots of mentions of unrelated people. Some bring up only Spanish-language sites that I can't read. Some names, like "Nelson Mandela" bring up so many sites that it's hard to choose something suitable to post. I suspect "Kazim Arli" is misspelled, because it brings up nothing, while "Kazim Ali" brings up lots of stuff, mostly irrelevant (I think).

Here's what I can contribute:

Birmingham Six (also here)

Carmen Quintana (and here.)

Victor Jara

Anybody else want to take up the challenge?

Strange that there doesn't seem to be any one site that contains information about several of these people.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 02:33 PM

Here's a few more. They all fit the 'cause of death' in the verses but I can't always be certain they are the right person

Karen Silkwood
Patrice Lumumba
Possible for Kobayashi
Mother Jones


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 08:32 AM

Augusto "Cesar" Sandino

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 08:36 AM

James Connolly

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 08:47 AM

William ("Bravehart") Wallace

Wallace


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 10:19 AM

Thanks, Wolfgang! (Isn't anybody else interested in this?)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 10:10 AM

Chilean activist Murielita Navarrete, who disappeared in 1974 and of whom the Pinochet government eradicated all records

This fits the description in the song and comes from a website about the singing of Peggy Seeger. So I guess this name is found too.

Mandela and Bobby Sands are too easy.

Eduardo C. Mondlane is a possible fit assuming just one more spelling error by Peggy Seeger.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: GUEST,jack Warshaw
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:53 AM

So it's Peggy's song after all?

The John MacLean in the song is the Glasgow Communist I think.
He didn't actually die in prison, but soon after as a result of it.

http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyeve18.htm


Best

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:19 AM

John MacLean


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 11:25 AM

John MacLean didn't die in prison, he was released to a hero's welcome, all Glasgow stopped work that day, as told in Hamish Henderson's song ' The John Maclean March '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 11:39 AM

"(Isn't anybody else interested in this?)"
Absolutely - I think it's one of Peggy's best songs - get a lump in the throat just thinking about it - and am grateful for all the information Mike's question has drawn out.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:21 AM

I love it Jim, it's on the double CD ' Antiquities ' it just irks me that Peggy could get the John MaClean thing so wrong and I don't understand why.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: GUEST,jack warshaw
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 06:33 AM

It's a great song, inspiring and chilling at the same time, with any number of names that could be inserted now and in the future.
Another name to remember: Ahmed Timol, South African activist who attended the Singers Club in the 60/70's. Back in SA he was arrested, tortured and finally thrown out of a police station window to his death.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM

Hi Jack - nice to hear your voice again - sort of!
Your posting reminded me of two of your own songs from the Golden Age of political songwriting - 'The Grapepickers Tragedy' and, to my mind, one of the best songs to come out of that era, The Chile Song - 'We Will Fight' the thought of which still brings a lump to the throat, though I haven't heard it in ages.
Maybe it should have been part of the funeral service for Pinochet's friend and political pupil when she went to join the 'choir Invisibule last week.   
All the best,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Uke
Date: 28 Apr 13 - 02:42 AM

Peggy Seeger version can be heard on Youtube here.

Great song - and one that could be adapted by fitting in a couple of local names.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Uke
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 12:29 AM

The Youtube version cited above appears to be from the MacColl CD "Antiquities". Some of the names differ from those posted from the Peggy Seeger songbook. The first name sounds like "Mcluhan Saagy" (?) or "Mclure and Saagy"(?), instead of "Kazim Arli". And there is "David Webster" instead of "The Birmingham Six".


BTW, the biographical link for "Kobayashi" above seems to be dead. This name possibly refers to Takiji Kobayashi (1903-1933), a Japanese communist and novelist who died after being tortured by police.


Does anybody know about Juan Hernandez? There was a Juan Hernandez Saravia who was a prominent Republican military officer during the Spanish Civil War.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 06:41 AM

Should the thread title not be "Seeger's Naming of Names"?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: MacColl's Naming of Names
From: Uke
Date: 29 Apr 13 - 07:59 PM

Yes, it probably should be "Seeger's Naming of Names". MacColl doesn't even perform the version on his CD "Antiquities".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Peggy Seeger's Naming of Names
From: Uke
Date: 30 Apr 13 - 09:11 PM

Another apparent inaccuracy in this song is the inclusion of labour organiser "Mother Jones" (a.k.a. Mary Harris Jones, 1837-1930) among those "all murdered" in Verse 6.

Jones lived to the ripe age of 93 and seems to have died of natural causes.

Easy enough to switch names between the verses, though.


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