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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: katlaughing Date: 28 May 02 - 05:07 PM Here's some interesting history about what used to be called "Decoration Day" along with some info on new bills which have been introduced, one of which would move it back to the original date of May 30th, FWIW. |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: GUEST,Peace Matriot Date: 28 May 02 - 06:36 PM Ultimately, it is important that any process of memorialization confront what memorials do well, and what they don't do. National memorials traditionally have been built with dual purposes: to instruct the nation's citizens about patriotism (often using historical figures, such as war heros, both living and dead), and to honor the dead. The tendency to teach by dictum is one the state cannot resist. Yet, by anyone's accounting nowadays, few among the citizenry actually participate in any sort of Memorial Day observance. In fact, to address this perceived affront, there has been an official movement afoot to correct our lack of patriotism on the day, which you can read all about here at the "Help Restore the Traditional Day of Observance for Memorial Day" page: http://www.usmemorialday.org/act.html Memorials do not teach well about history, since that communal function is superseded on individual levels by bereaved families who choose to remember those who died rather than to understand why they died. One can visit the Vietnam Veterans Memorial and the Oklahoma City National Memorial without understanding, for instance, the fraught history of the Vietnam War and the reasons why American lives were lost in Vietnam, or what aspects of American society gave rise to the right-wing ideology that bombed Oklahoma City. It is important that any communal memorializing done to mourn the individual dead not foreclose on discussions about why their lives were lost. Yet that is exactly what memorialization by dictum does. The memorials that resonate most powerfully within a culture are those that allow those debates to continue, that don't try to contain history and memory, or censor it. Rather they create a space where memorials are generated in all their conflict. It is no coincidence that in this post-modern era, our demands for individual memorializing within the public sphere leads us back to more ancient ways of remembering the dead. I think more and more families are choosing to do just that--remember their war dead on their terms, not the nation's, and to mourn and grieve privately, not publicly. Prior to the Civil War in the US, memorializing of the war dead was always, always a private family affair, led by war widows. In the post-Civil War era, the role of the war widows was co-opted by the male military and political leaders who wished to use the Decoration Day, and Soldiers' Memorial Days as days when they could further their own agendas and purposes by standing beside the public memorial sites, and being put on pedestals floated in Memorial Day parades. Is it any wonder so many families of the war dead never participate in such shams? We know the score, and we don't wish to have the memories of our loved ones used and abused by politicians looking to buy our votes with cheap patriotic sentiments. In the face of absence of our war dead, especially an absence so violently and tragically wrought at the cost of so many lives, all people feel a need to create a presence of some kind to fill that painful void. I realize it is considered unAmerican, especially in the wake of 9/11, to suggest that the celebration of Memorial Day is an empty, hollow one, but for me and my family, it is. In many of the most powerful memorials I have ever seen, such as the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park, which incorporates the skeletal ruins of a building, and many World War II memorials, such as Coventry Cathedral in England, or the preserved Nazi concentration camps--the memorials speak to history in their preservation of the ruins of destroyed structures. For the most part, these memorials use the shards of the past to convey a warning and a bitter message about the human capacity for violence. Sadly, I see none of that in the US Memorial Day celebrations. And until I do, I and my family will remain anti-Memorial Day. I do no disgrace to the fallen war dead to take such a stance. It is because of the obscenity of the carnage of war, that I demand more of my country in this regard. I demand that we at least make some attempt, no matter how feeble, to keep a bitter message about the human capacity for violence, in the equation when we celebrate the day. If that makes me an outcast at Mudcat, well I can live with quite comfortably with that. |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: GUEST Date: 28 May 02 - 08:16 PM "Listen to David Rovics..." Pete Seeger From Dave Rovic's Song Lyrics website: http://members.aol.com/drovics/buml.htm Soldier On The Bum David Rovics He grew up right in this neighborhood He was on his way to going far He could throw a ball like no one He was gonna be a football star And when he had a chance to travel And go to a far-off shore He packed his bags and went Away to fight the war Chorus And you can see him in the alley with a bottle in his hand Ready at attention for an officer's command He's waiting for a discharge, but it never seems to come Used to be a soldier, now he's a soldier on the bum He was proud to be a Navy Seal To be part of the team Following the dictates Of this American dream He threw boys out of airplanes To combat the commie threat Now he spends each day Just trying to forget Chorus And some days when the vodka Can't keep the visions from his thoughts Of the horror he has seen And the terror he has wrought He limps up and down the sidewalk Yells out all he has to say But the empty storefronts do not listen And all the people turn away Chorus |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Banjer Date: 28 May 02 - 08:28 PM Sorry I asked........ |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: GUEST Date: 28 May 02 - 09:32 PM C'mon Banjer, what did you expect when you asked about a military holiday in a folk forum with as many anti-war leftists, as former military people? |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Amergin Date: 28 May 02 - 10:30 PM Banjer ddon't be sorry.... this weekend I started on a project for my gramma....it will be for christmas if I can pull it off...and I sincerely hope to....I am looking for stories about my uncle Jim (her brother) who was a sergeant in Korea...and later flew for Air America in Vietnam....he died several years ago of lung cancer...but you can still see the tears in her eyes...when she thinks of him.... One thing...my family can pretty much trace our war dead to both sides of the Civil War...and both sides of the War of Independence... Mick...and Norton...you both have my deepest respect...don't let some wanker get to you.... |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: catspaw49 Date: 28 May 02 - 10:46 PM Banj, I am the one who should be sorry for allowing myself to get dragged into all of this..........and Nathan me lad, that sounds like a truly worthy project for your gram....and you too. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: GUEST,mg Date: 28 May 02 - 11:13 PM I stayed home with post folklife food poisoning...I think Memorial Day is by far the lesser of the two holidays, the other being November 11. I don't think the date should be changed to May 30 as it is does not stand for a particular day as far as I know, as does November 11. And who was it that implied that officers don't die or whatever in wars? They sure as hell did in my war. mg |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: GUEST Date: 28 May 02 - 11:20 PM The Call Up by The Clash It's up to you not to heed the call up You must not act the way you were brought up Who knows the reason why you have grown up Who knows the plans or why they were drawn up [Refrain] It's up to you not to heed the call up I don't wanna die It's up to you not to hear the call up I don't wanna kill For he who will die is who will kill. Maybe I wanna see the wheatfields Over Kiev and down to the sea All the young people down the ages They gladly marched off to die Proud city fathers used to watch them Tears in their eyes There is a rose that I want to live for Although God knows I may not have met her There is a dance and I should be with her There is a town unlike any other [Refrain] Who gives you work and why should you do it At 55 minutes past eleven There is a rose.... [Fade out with refrain and chant "Hup, two, three, four, I love the Marine Corps..."]
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Big Mick Date: 28 May 02 - 11:51 PM Well, Matriot, I did go back and read the first post and when taken in its complete context (which you seem unwilling to do) it is not intended, nor would a reasonable person, take it as offensive. But so be it. But while you are quoting you forgot the part where I made it clear that I was not chastising but questioning. Perhaps my later line was uncalled for, where I compared you to those that spit at me. Really happened in the airport in San Francisco. I took my civvies and personal effects out of my duffel bag and put the bag in the trash. If that is what set you off, then accept my apologies, please. When it comes to the rest of your arguments, take the time to read my past posts. Go to the Vietnam songs thread for a view of how I think on the Generals/Admirals. I can't stand anything that glorifies war. I am not sure why I ever posted that I was a Vet on this forum to begin with. I don't have any problem with your view of the warlords using these things to their own ends. What I do have a problem with is your fucking superior attitude towards those of us who choose to use this day to teach our children, and remind others, that a price (whether wanted or not) was paid. I personally could give a shit if you ever tip your hat to the lives that are represented on those monuments. I don't give a flying fuck if you can't look at the names and at least take a moment on this or any other day to acknowledge that each one is life cut short. I see many things in those names, not the least of which is that people I FUCKING KNEW died for a cause that they weren't even sure they supported. Your bonehead, elitist fucking attitude that they marched off and died for no good reason is a typical of those with pat answers for their own fucking misery. Some probably did march off blindly. Others, like myself, found themselves facing death wondering what for. I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO ACCEPT ANYFUCKING THING ABOUT THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, RICHARD NIXON, YOUR DAD OR MY MISERY. My point is simply that we have a day to ponder those names and reflect on why they are dead. For some that is inspirational in a positive way. For others it is inspirational in a negative way. For folks like me, it is a source of pain and determination that this thing that took these young men and women will NEVER be glorified. And it is a moment for me to say to a few of the names that I wish we could go fishing, have a beer, talk about R&R, grow old, and die when we were supposed to. Like it or not, I sorrow for you families losses and sacrifices, and I pray that no young person will have to face it again. As we see today, my hopes are in vain. But I will honor these people by questioning, singing their songs, and challenging at every opportunity those that make the decisions. And I salute the warriors that make it OK for you to have your opinion. As I have said, we agree fiercely on most things. But the fucking know it all chip you have on your shoulder is easy to have because you've got all the answers. Tell it to the folks on the wall. Oh.............yeah.........I forgot. Peace. I'm outta this one. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Ebbie Date: 29 May 02 - 01:34 AM "I do what I do on Memorial Day not to dishonor your war dead, but to honor mine." Matriot, you lie. Your intent without question was to dishonor those on the thread who remember their loss, and who hurt. I come from a pacifistic family (they went into alternative service, not prison) and I am against war, capital punishment and the fistfight in the back alley- but I live in the real world and like it or not, the real world indulges in all of that. That said, I choose to think for myself- and I don't bring "my family" into every point I wish to make as though they and I were joined at the hip. I'm beginning to think you have no such family at all.
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Banjer Date: 29 May 02 - 06:14 AM C'mon Banjer, what did you expect when you asked about a military holiday in a folk forum with as many anti-war leftists, as former military people? I expected answers to a sincere question, not a raging debate of right or wrong. I myself am not a hawk or a dove....I would rather see solution to the world's problems be achieved diplomaticaly and amicably by both sides. But that is in a PERFECT WORLD...if it becomes necessary to defend the ideals of this great nation in which we live then so be it! I don't enjoy at all going to the cemetery and visiting with David, Danny, Bobby, Mike or Denny, I go out of a sense of respect for them on a day set aside in their honor. If people like Peace Matriot chooses to ignore the day, so be it. He/She is entitled to live life as they choose, after all that's what these people whose memory we commemorate fought and died for. It would seem to me that the pacifists among us owe a lot to those who gave the last great measure. It is because of their sacrifice that our freedom of choice and expression remains alive today. There are those among us right here on this forum who declined to serve in the military when called. I have GREAT respect for them because they utilized the rights we have and paid another price, (in some cases their freedom for a while). They have the courage to stand up for what they believe is right! Banj, I am the one who should be sorry for allowing myself to get dragged into all of this..........NO Dammit, you (nor anyone else)should be sorry at all....You, 'Spaw and others here on this forum are excercising those very rights that I am writing about! Never apologize for having an opinon, when you don't allow yourself to have an opinion and stand up for what YOU feel is right, just following like another sheep in the herd, that's when you need to apologize. You would need to apologize to the memories of the folks we honored on Memorial Day for having died in vain! |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: GUEST Date: 29 May 02 - 07:50 AM First of all, this isn't just a forum strictuly for friends and supporteers of the US military. Second, you are never going to get people who don't want to honor the military to honor the military, no matter how pissed off that makes you. Third, you sound like a bunch of foaming at the mouth war mongrels. "Our side has the might which makes us right, and EVERYONE better god damn appreciate us". That's how you sound to me. Give it a rest, will you? |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Paul from Hull Date: 29 May 02 - 11:12 AM Frankly, Guest 07:50 AM, if thats how this thread 'sounds to you' I suspect your getting input into your brain thats not appearing to the rest of us here on Mudcat..... ...but thats MILD compared to what 'Peace Matriot' is suffering from.... to use their own dead forebears (IF they exist - I find it vey uncomfortable to think there is someone around who could do it) to simply TROLL here shows that they are very, very ill indeed. No doubt I've upset some people here who dont deserve to be upset, but I'm sorry, thats just how upset I am over this. Not sure why, but I suppose I've just picked up how I'd feel if all this had happened in response to a Thread about the UK's Remembrance Day |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: GUEST,mg Date: 29 May 02 - 11:23 AM I don't think we need a day to remember. We need a day to forget. mg |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: 53 Date: 29 May 02 - 01:57 PM I spent my memorial day with my family at a cookout. I sure am greatful for my loved ones cause there'll come a day when we won't have them or either thay won't have us. |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Banjer Date: 29 May 02 - 03:48 PM I suppose it's like any public forum, someone says 'My it sure is a beautiful day today', and some idiot will start a rant about how its about time that is is and we'd have more of them if ths or that group didn't cause pollution or some other disaster. Gets so a body can't make a normal statement or ask an innocent question but what some right or left leaner won't pickup on it and try to further their cause, not just in this forum but in a lot of places. I guess it's a sign of the times. |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Lonesome EJ Date: 29 May 02 - 03:54 PM Banjer, thanks for making us think about it, anyway. War and war casualties are pretty emotional topics for most of us, and at least this kind of discussion gives us all a chance to hash out those feelings. Its better than firing up the barbecue and just sweeping the whole reason for the holiday under the rug. You done good, pal. |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Steve in Idaho Date: 29 May 02 - 05:00 PM Lonesome EJ - how elequent! I do agree. You done good!
Steve |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: artbrooks Date: 29 May 02 - 05:02 PM I was in the US Army. I served in Vietnam. Most of the people I know that did came home physically and mentally intact, and have put that all long behind them. Some didn't come back and some can't ever put it all aside. Sometimes I remember those I served with (and those I never knew) privately and sometimes it feels better to do it in the company of others. GUEST,Peace Matriot has a right to express his/her/its opinion. I won't say that the preservation of that right is the reason for a lot of those white monuments, because I don't want to set him/her/it off again. I think that a choice NOT to remember those who served, voluntarily or not, is wierd, but then I guess I have a right to my opinion as well. |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: catspaw49 Date: 29 May 02 - 05:12 PM Well Leej ol' buddy, I'm with Steve........Once again you hit a home run. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: katlaughing Date: 29 May 02 - 06:26 PM Same here, my dear LeeJ. Banj, ya done did good...you know this lot..off on tangents at the drop of a hat. luvyakat |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Steve in Idaho Date: 29 May 02 - 07:05 PM Hey I figured it out! I know who the Peace Matriot is and why she is so pissy! Her last name is Smith - get it?? Peace Matriot Smith? And Art - you have every right to your opinion - all of us do - and I believe it is due to our service to country. Whether it is in the lines as a soldier or in the lines as an activist to stop the craziness. Love ya all, Steve |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: SharonA Date: 30 May 02 - 04:51 PM This being the traditional Memorial Day, May 30th, the original question "how did YOU spend the first Memorial Day since 9/11/01" takes on new meaning, since there was a service held at Ground Zero in NYC today. My co-workers and I have a tiny black-and-white TV in the office, so we were able to watch the service and remember for a few moments not only those who died as victims of that terrible attack but also those who've fought and died in the war against terrorism since then. May their souls find peace. |
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Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back From: Murph10566 Date: 30 May 02 - 05:15 PM AMEN. |
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