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Help: What makes a guitar make its sound?
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Subject: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 31 May 02 - 11:47 PM Justa Picker and I have been having a whale of a discussion on this topic. I honestly can't say with authority what makes a guitar make it's sound. I've learned a bit about how the side and back woods impact the sound, and can hear that, but the two or three luthiers I've talked to can't seem to agree on what will make a guitar improve its sound. Now I have the utmost respect for Justa and his guitars - he really is very good at what he does. But let's have a bit of a discussion on what makes the noise - and see if there is a consensus here on how to make the best possible sound come out of, or off the top of, a guitar. What is it that creates the sound of a guitar - the physics? I'm perplexed and curious. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: michaelr Date: 31 May 02 - 11:54 PM It's the fingers on the strings, I should think. Michael |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: M.Ted Date: 01 Jun 02 - 12:41 AM There is nothing like the sound of a great instrument-- but a lot of the best guitarists have squeezed fantastic sounds out of instruments that aren't very impressive instruments--I would say that technique is probably a greater factor in the sound than instrument construction-- |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: GUEST,Ben Date: 01 Jun 02 - 01:31 AM Look mate just to settle your question there. It's the strings. I mean it's got to be.I've been talking to me mate Den and we agreed. You see, what we did was got Ben's guitar and took all the strings off and tried to play it but not a sound Ben |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: GUEST,Den Date: 01 Jun 02 - 01:34 AM Yes, now we've done the same thing to mine and it's true,not a bloomin sound. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Jun 02 - 02:11 AM Sounds like, for Ben's guitar, that might have been an improvement. Anything else you might do, since we're looking for the most possible improvement in the sound? John |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Cappuccino Date: 01 Jun 02 - 05:13 AM Steve, I'm not at all sure this will be any more helpful, but you might enjoy these two famous guitar-making stories. One classical maker argued that the entire sound quality and projection came from the back wood... so he constructed a guitar in which everything was wood, as normal, except the back, which was papier-mache. It is said that the sound quality was excellent - but only the guitarist himself could hear it! The rock equivalent, probably apocryphal, is of the maker who argued that sustain comes from the density of the body. So, to prove it, he made a guitar with a marble body. The sustain was wonderful... but nobody could lift it! - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: M.Ted Date: 01 Jun 02 - 08:42 AM I don't know about marble, but Les Paul says that he once made a guitar body from a steel rail--and the results were as described-- |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Jeri Date: 01 Jun 02 - 08:44 AM I would think (having only a very small bit of knowledge) it is not just the type of wood. I think there are quite a few details: the wood grain, how it's joined and braced, the size, shape and proportions of the body, bridge placement, action, the sound hole. I think the relationships of those things matter. If you use different woods with one body design, it won't make as much difference with another. If it weren't true that the way all those (and probably more) factors come together added up to the sound, then guitars made the same way would sound exactly the same, and they don't. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 01 Jun 02 - 08:56 AM Groan - - and to think I was being serious *G* - - Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: mack/misophist Date: 01 Jun 02 - 09:28 AM There is no real agreement about why some instruments sound so much better than others, even from the same maker. That said, let me tell you a storey about a man named Ole Bull who was a very popular violinist in the 1800's. The public loved him but the critics all said the real credit for his tone belonged to the Stradivarius he played. He must have gotten tired of hearing that because one night in New York City he took his final bow, walked to the edge of the stage and smashed his violin on it. It wasn't until the next day he admitted it had beed bought at a pawn shop. This may not be a true storey, I don't know. But it FEELS like a true storey, which may be more important. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Jun 02 - 09:52 AM It's a good, serious question. The only real answer that can be given generally is "It's the Compromises". If you want great "loudness," you've got to get the energy out of the string and into the soundbox as fast as possible - and you give up some "sustain" to do it. If you want great "balance," so that high notes sound the same as low ones (generally the same "loudness" and "sustain" across the strings,) you may give up both loudness and sustain over one range of pitches - in order to be more like what you get in the rest of the range. If you want great "dynamic range," so that you sound as good when you "whang it real loud" as when you play softly, you may have to trade some "playability" and a little "balance" - and maybe a few other things. If you want the guitar that gives everything of what you want it to do and gives up the absolute least in everything else, you may have to give up a lifetime worth of searching and trying - and a big pocketfull of bucks. Or you may just get lucky. But you still practice 'till it hurts - but not so much that it cripples you. If you can figure out which things are important to you in a guitar, you can probably find a luthier to agree with you; and you'll get yourself a new guitar. Then, when someone else shows up with one that does something else a little better, you'll want another/different one. GAS is never ending. The trick is in figuring out exactly what it is that's "missing" in one, and what you're willing to give up to get it when you get the next one. John |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Cappuccino Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:52 AM With regard to that Stradivarius story, and just to persuade Steve that I can get back to the serious subject, I actually did know a guy in the Scottish borders who died just a couple of years ago, and who was believed to have the secret of what Stradivarius did. His violins (he preferred to call them 'fiddles', to the disgust of the music snobs!) had an instant richness of tone, which he said disproved the idea that violins improve in tone with age... he said he could achieve it instantly, and he believed that Strad. had done the same thing. He also said that all ideas of it having anything to do with the varnish were nonsense, and gave unvarnished instruments to be played in concert to prove it. A few famous musicians played his instruments - I think Kyung Wha-Chung was one who was very impressed - but the old guy died a couple of years back, leaving the secret to only one apprentice, a Scots playwright whose name escapes me. And so - sorry, I can't tell you!!! - Ian B
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: GUEST,guitarfixer Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:54 AM Here's a story from Chet Atkins: Chet was in the studio working with an engineer he didn't know. The new guy tried to compliment Chet but it came out wrong. "Chet, that's a great soundin' guitar you've got there." Chet stopped playing and leaned on his instrument. "How's it sound now?" |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: InOBU Date: 01 Jun 02 - 11:00 AM All wood is infested with wee spirits of varrious natures and inklings... when you cut wood very thin and tie strings to it, and pluck the strings, it eather pleases or anoys the spirits and they eaither make nice or ugly sounds. So practice alot, because if you continue to anoy the spirits they get mischevious and pour beer on your head in pubs and tie your boot laces together. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: michaelr Date: 01 Jun 02 - 11:04 AM My first post may have sounded facetious, Steve, but I, too, was being serious: In the hands of a great player, even a cheap beater guitar can sound good, while a beginning or incompetent player can make the best instrument sound crappy. As to the physics of guitarmaking, the less there is impeding the top from vibrating freely, the better it will sound. Rainsong guitars are made from graphite, which is incredibly strong, with no braces glued to the top. If that were possible with wooden soundboards, you'd have the Holy Grail. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Bert Date: 02 Jun 02 - 02:40 AM IanB's story is a distortion of a story told about that great guitar maker Torres. Torres claimed that the top was responsible for most of the quality and he mad a guitar with a back made of papier-mache. It was said that it sounded "interesting" If you've got a guitar and you want to improve the sound then the first thing to do is thoroughly investigate the TOP. There's probably not going to be a lot that you can do to the thickness. But you can mess about with the bracing a bit if the guitar is a real cheapie and you just want to have a little fun with it. One time when I was real broke and between jobs I bought a used Korean guitar for a few Pounds. It sounded pretty bad, kinda boomy and rattly. I took the top off and added a couple of braces in an area where it felt a bit flexible. Now it didn't turn it into a good guitar or anything but it certainly sounded a lot better. But if you've got an expensive guitar that doesn't sound quite right then you take it to a good luthier. Failing that you can play a little with the string gauges. If there's not enough bass then try slightly heavier 5th. and 6th. strings. If there's not enough treble then use slightly heavier 1st. and 2nd. strings and so on, you get the idea. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: 53 Date: 02 Jun 02 - 10:33 AM After hearing Justa play with Rick, either one of them could make andy guitar sound great. They are 2 great musicians and I really enjoyed listening to them play. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 02 Jun 02 - 01:18 PM The question was, "What MAKES a guitar make its sound?" (emphasis added. The answer: The guitarist's fingers, obviously. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Don Firth Date: 02 Jun 02 - 03:29 PM The physics involved:— Essentially, a guitar is a pump. You pluck a string which then vibrates at a particular frequency. That vibration sets the saddle to vibrating, which, in turn, causes the soundboard to vibrate, all, of course, in the same frequency. The upper partials (harmonics, overtones, whatever you want to call them) of the string are also transferred to the soundboard. The flexible soundboard (which then adds partials of its own) undulates, causing the air in its vicinity to vibrate. Since the back and sides are relatively rigid, the volume of air inside the box is pumped in and out through the soundhole, amplifying the sound. The pulses of air (like waves in a pond when a pebble is dropped in it) radiate outward and impinge on your eardrums, then your auditory nerves and your brain do the rest. That's about it as far as the basic mechanism is concerned. But the sound can vary a great deal, depending on how the vibration is distributed across the soundboard. Umpteen factors go into this, such as what kind of wood it is, the shape of the sheet of wood, how flexible it is, and how consistent it is lengthwise and widthwise. Which partials get amplified and which get attenuated? Bracing is not just for structural strength; different systems are devised by various luthiers in an effort to control the amplitude and distribution of the vibrations. According to the principle of the basic mechanism, the back and sides are supposed to be rigid to reflect the vibrating air (this is the principle Antonio Torres was trying to demonstrate with his papier mâché backed guitar—some good info here—). But they aren't really. They do have a noticeable effect on the tone. To the practiced ear, it's not too hard to tell the difference between guitars with mahogany and rosewood backs and sides, for example. Both sound good, but they sound slightly different. And the difference between a classic guitar with rosewood back and sides and a flamenco guitar with cypress back and sides is very noticeable, although the dimensions and details of construction are almost identical (I've had people argue with me about that, but I have both a classic and a flamenco, both of which are made by well-known Spanish luthiers, and they're practically identical except for the woods). Nevertheless, the soundboard is the most important component. When a guitar is being played, the necessary juxtaposition of the back with the guitarist's paunch demonstrate that the freedom of the back to vibrate has minimal importance. I would be interested to see some information on the differences between, say, identically constructed guitars, but one with the strings attached to the bridge as is the usual practice, and the other with the strings attached to a tailpiece. Since it wouldn't have to support the tension of the strings, but just respond to their vibration, the tailpiece would allow the soundboard to be thinner and braced more lightly. Nick Appollonio makes his 12-strings this way (plink!), and they sure sound good to me. Bowed instruments are made this way. And some of the old parlor guitars from the late 1800s and early 1900s, many of which had a rich sound and were fairly loud for their size. One advantage is that curing intonation problems by dinking around with the position of the bridge would be a lot easier. Anybody have any thoughts on this? Don Firth P. S. Beyond (but included in) the physics, you do have considerable control over the the way you set the string to vibrating. Fingertip, fingernail, or pick; where on the string do you play it; at what angle; and how hard. These factors all affect the tone a particular guitar produces. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Mark Clark Date: 02 Jun 02 - 04:32 PM I'm not sure if anyone is really looking for an explanation of the process by which a guitar produces sound but I'll give it a go anyway. Be advised that my explanation is subject to corrections and improvements by any actual physicists and luthiers caring to comment. First of all, what we call sound is a vibration carried through the air with enough force to produce a corresponding vibration in our eardrums. All the sound we hear is simply vibration of various materials causing the surrounding air to vibrate which in turn causes our eardrums to vibrate. Humans can normally hear sound vibrations between 20 Hz (cycles per second) and 20,000 Hz. In any stringed instrument, the energy to produce a sound comes from a vibrating string. The note (pitch) produced depends on the mass of the string (thickness, weight), its length and the amount of force or tension with which it is stretched. We all know that applying more tension with a tuning key raises the pitch of a string. Once the pitch of an open string has been set, shortening the vibrating string by pressing it down somewhere on the fingerboard raises its pitch as well. The string vibrates because the player has moved the string out of its resting position using a finger or pick. (In the case of a bowed instrument, the sticky rosin on the bow moves the string to one side until the force of adhesion is overcome by the tension on the string.) Once the string is released, the mass and momentum of the string—remember Isacc Newton?—causes the string to snap back passed its resting position and stop almost (but not quite) as far as it had been deflected. The string then snaps almost as far back the other way and continues until it comes to rest. The length of time before the string comes to rest depends on the mass, length and tension of the string and on the mechanics of the way it is suspended (i.e., the saddle and nut) and in music is called the sustain of the string. The vibration of the string—carried through the saddle and bridge—causes a corresponding vibration in the top of the instrument. The top is large enough to begin moving enough air to produce an audible sound. (Note that plucking the strings of an unplugged solid body electric guitar produces almost no audible sound. The mass of the solid body is too great to be moved by the energy of the vibrating string.) The top of the guitar vibrates in and out much like the string except a broader surface is available to move the air. Sound waves are created both outside and inside the guitar. The sound waves produced outside the guitar are transmitted directly throught the air to a microphone or directly to the ear of the listener. The sound waves produced inside the guitar have a more complex behavior. The inside sound waves are reflected off the inside of the guitar's back. The amount of reflection depends on the hardness and smoothness of the material. Also, some of the energy is lost in causing sympathetic vibrations in the back itself. But now things start to get really complex. You have sound waves from the top bouncing off the back inside the guitar and, depending on the frequency (pitch) of the wave and the distance between the top and back, either being reinforced or canceled out. It's for this reason that very few guitars are made with one single constant distance between all points on the top and back. Eventually, the waves that haven't been canceled out inside the instrument will find their way out throught the sound hole(s). Of course the more vibration in the top, the louder the guitar. The problem is that the more the top is designed to vibrate, the less it will be able to witstand the stess of the strings and remain in one piece. Flemenco and classical guitars have light thin tops that vibrate easily but would soon give way under the tension of steel strings. Tops designed for the tension of steel strings will hold up for many years but won't produce much sound when strung with low-mass gut or nylon strings. A complete analysis of every tone and overtone that can be ringing in the guitar at the same time has probably been the subject of many a PhD disertation and isn't a subject we can describe in detail here. It is important to note, however, that the human ear tends to prefer sounds with a lot of complex overtones and dislike the tone of a perfect sine wave. The variation of materials and the complexity of design available to luthiers should continue to give us many more centuries of pleasant overtones. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Pete Jennings Date: 03 Jun 02 - 07:24 AM I'm lucky enough to have three great guitars, but it's interesting that most of our regular audience don't recognise which is which, yet they all say "Pete's got a great guitar"...and believe me they all sound totally different to me. There are a multitude of technical responses, all valid, even if some of them are a bit "black art-ish". However, I identify with the Chet Atkins quote above...what you play does make a difference, but it's the player who makes the sound. I remember one time when Martin Simpson was staying at a mate of mine's place and MS picked up his old, very neglected, Yamaha FG something (good guitars, mind you...) and he made it sound absolutely wonderful, duff strings an' all. Some folk could play our shed door and make it sound great. Pete
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 03 Jun 02 - 10:16 AM OK - All of that makes sense to me. Don Firth's was what I was looking for with a strong reinforcer from Mark Clark's post. And it is OK IanB - I still Love you *G*. I have packed these ideas around in my head for years but never had them all laid out at one time in a sequence that made sense to me. So the clarification is wonderful! There are a lot of compromises made in construction to keep everything working yet not have the instrument come apart. It also puts into perspective the differences in sounds that the varying woods make. That the top is key seems to be the one mitigating factor in all of the instruments. So would it make sense that anything done to the bridge, end pins, or nut and saddle have an impact on the sound? All of those things are pretty much stationary aren't they? At least from what I've read so far I am inferring that. However I do know that changing the bridge pins does alter the sound - at least to my ears it does. Changing the bridge from plastic to wood changes the sound also. And from the other postings about how to make a guitar sound "better" it is strictly in the ears of the beholder. Making sense I think. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Rick Fielding Date: 03 Jun 02 - 11:08 AM Yup...it's mainly in the fingers, and the sensitivity of the person playing it. But here's something else (that I've only really come to understand in the last year) The sound that YOU hear when you play your guitar is NOT the sound that the person five feet away hears. Since I've done some 'multiple student' workshops in the last year, I've tried some experiments. One night we had five players and several high quality guitars (Martins, Ryszanyis, Gibson, Laskin, and Larrivee.) From twenty feet away it was virtually impossible to tell one from the other. To my surprise, my little antique Martin 0-18 was the loudest from that distance away...with seeming less 'decay' than the other much bigger instruments. The most resonantly pleasing (while playing it) was a big D-28, but from a few feet away it sounded pretty generic. I added a Takamine acoustic-electric ('bout one third the price of the cheapest "good" guitar in the room, and once again it was hard (not impossible) to separate it from the rest from twenty odd feet away (and it was filled up with heavy electronics. The biggest differences though were in the the way each player approached each instrument. Wanna hear a Laskin sound like a very bad instrument? Just put it in the hands of someone who muffles chords, and doesn't have a flowing right hand. 'Course that just means that if the person CARES about sound, they can work on their technique to the point where they truly justify having a first class axe.....and therein lies the fun of gettin' to be a better and better guitar player. Haven't tried Justa's 'fossilized nuts' yet, but I'm lookin' forward to gettin' my fingers on them! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: GUEST,Bob Green Date: 03 Jun 02 - 11:26 AM Just my 2d's worth I have had the opportunity to play a couple of nice old Martins this weekend. The fullness of sound on them was incredible. what ever 'it' is that makes guitars sound the way they do quite often improves with age and playing. I think some woods are supposed to wear in better than others aswell. The sound from my Yamaha has definitley improved since I bought it 5 years ago, partly because i'm a better player than I was but there's an improvement from it being 'played in'. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 03 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM I've passed my guitar around the room and played others just to hear the difference in sound. For the most part I can tell which guitar is being played. Of course I've heard a couple of them for 30+ years across from me so I recognize not only the sound but the musician's style. I also tried sitting behind the instrument as others played it. Sound does travel backwards I've discovered and it is a bit different from what I hear in front. 20 feet is a long ways and I think 5-7 feet is about the norm for us when in a circle. I haven't tried it but I'm guessing that even a piano at 20 feet would get pretty generic. And I am not minimizing Rick's ear as he is one very good musician and has played enough to know a bit about these things. My next venture will be to play a couple different instruments into a microphone and see if I can audibly tell a difference there. I've heard that some guitars don't record well because of increased sustain. At least in the ears of the artist it sounds that way. Bottom line - I think we all play to entertain ourselves. So what sounds best to us is the sound we'll opt for. And I'm looking forward to hearing Rick's opinion of Justa's guitars. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Jande Date: 03 Jun 02 - 12:03 PM Rick... that was just *begging* for a sexual inuendo! :) (and I'm saving this whole thread for future reference.) ~ Jande |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Jun 02 - 01:36 PM Interesting comments, Rick. I agree that the player (especially if they're good) makes a big difference in the way an instrument sounds. Whatever guitar Walt Robertson happened to be playing at the time (including mine), you could always tell it was Walt playing. And it wasn't just his musical style, it was the actual sound he pulled out of the guitar itself. And I've notice the same with other guitarists. Even without hearing his voice on a CD, Gordon Bok's guitar playing sounds like it's Gordon Bok playing. It's their touch. Same with classic guitarists. Not so much anymore because there are so many more of them, but at one time, while listening to a recording I could tell whether it was Segovia, Julian Bream, John Williams, Christopher Parkening, or Pepe Romero with about 85% accuracy. Walt (and I'm sure all these other guys) could take a cheap plywood guitar and make it sound pretty darned good. Also, your comment about your Martin 0-18. I got interested in guitar sizes after I got a little travel guitar (a Go Grande Walnut model with nylon strings) and was flabbergasted at how good it sounded despite its small size and weird shape—not real strong in the bass, but strong enough, with a warm tone and good sustain, along with the fact that the more I play it, the more it opens up. This interest was reinforced by remembering that a couple of the nicest guitars I have ever heard were a Washburn 1897 Type I "New Model" parlor guitar that my girl friend (back in 1952) had, and a Martin 0-16 NY that a friend of my wife's has. The Washburn that Claire had was one of these, except that Claire's didn't have a pick-guard. I noticed that the commentary that goes along with this photo says "The neck joins the body at the 12th fret, which officially designates it as a "parlour" guitar. It is a tiny guitar (12 1/2" wide at the lower bout - the body is 18" long - the overall length is a hair over 36"). This configuration is said to be the optimum string to body length to produce a ringing tone and listening to this guitar would tend to verify that proposition in my mind. I have also read that this size and shape body produces the 'perfect guitar sound' by no less an authority then Eric Schoenberg. The tone is rich and balanced with a lot of bass and mid-range, unsurpassed treble and is (amazingly!) the loudest acoustic guitar I own. This instrument is a finger-picker's dream."I may be taken out and stoned for saying this, but I've never been all that impressed with D models, much as people seem to worship them. I've always thought they sacrificed good balance for lots of bass, leaving them a bit puny in the treble, despite their size. Any thoughts on guitar sizes and shapes? Don Firth Now, sure as hell, some joker's gonna come along and say "size doesn't matter!" |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 03 Jun 02 - 02:07 PM No size doesn't matter Don - It's the cute way one does the "Hammer ons and Pulloffs", he said with a grin. I sometimes wonder if a guitar really does improve its sound with age - or does the person playing it learn how to make a better sound. This Gurian of mine has certain places it likes being fretted better than others. And for finger picking (I am not a real fingerpicker) where I position my fingers on the frets makes a difference in whether or not I get an occasional buzz. Interesting concept though. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Escamillo Date: 03 Jun 02 - 02:16 PM You may find interesting things (for example, calculation and construction of the fretboard) in this site: http://www.guitarristas.com/estrada/english_version.htm That's the site of one of the best Argentinean luthiers, Mr. Estrada Gómez, supplier of many master guitarists. Un abrazo - Andrés |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Jun 02 - 03:13 PM Yeah, Steve, a good guitar actually does improve with age, sometimes very noticeably. I've had the little "Go" guitar for almost a year, and whereas it has definitely opened up and continues to sound better all the time, I haven't improved that much during the past year. I've been playing since 1952 (Gawd! Fifty years!) and although I think I can safely say I'm pretty good, there's still plenty of room for improvement. In 1961 I ordered a flamenco guitar directly from the maker, Arcangel Fernandez in Madrid. I'd seen a couple of his guitars and I knew they were excellent, and he wasn't charging all that much at the time. 16,000 pesetas, which translated to about $116.00. About a year and a half later I got the guitar by air freight from Madrid. The whole deal, the guitar, the air freight, and the insurance cost about $175.00. When I got the guitar home and tuned it up (it was gorgeous, by the way!), I was almost disappointed in the sound. But within days it started to open up. Surprising. Every time I picked it up, it was better. Within a month it's sound was full and warm, all anyone could ever want, and it definitely spoke Spanish! It was very responsive to touch. I could get soft and mellow with it, but if I leaned into it a bit (I had a chance to take some lessons from a real flamenco guitarist in 1963) it would really bark and snarl! And it was loud! A few years after I got it, I learned that Montoya, Sabicas, and a whole bunch of the big boys were using Fernandez flamenco guitars. I still have it, and it's a really incredible instrument. The improvement curve has flattened out, of course, but it's still getting better. Every time I pick it up, I can't help but notice how good it sounds. I learned recently that a 1961 Arcangel in good condition, if you can find one, goes for anywhere from $12,000 to $18,000. But I'd never sell it. I couldn't. It would be like selling an arm. Yup. They do improve. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Jun 02 - 03:57 PM Well, we've covered parts and players and strings and things....Let's talk about one other thing which is the acoustics of the instrument itself. I became kinda' fascinated with acoustics building Hammereds because internal changes alone could alter the sound. Remember that inside of that box there are waves of sound moving back and forth, initial waves and reflexive waves. Like throwing two pebbles into a pond, the waves also collide with each other as they move back and forth. They collide with the sides and back and return, crashing into others and changing direction and frequency in the process. Additionally, some of these waves are being "absorbed" by the material they hit. I don't want to go into a long and boring post about frequencies and all, but consider that there isn't just one wave inside that box, but thousands of one sort or another at any given moment! What they hit, how far they go, how they rebound, what they hit on the rebound, other waves they hit...........Look, there's a LOT going on inside ANY stringed instrument. Little things that aren't right inside can change the sound...not by much I grant, but when you have two or three little things multiplied by thousands of waves, you CAN tell the difference. This can often account for a dog and a gem in what are apparently identical instruments. When you think about it in those terms, then things like size/depth/wood/quality/glues/ etc. as well as the way YOU fret the strings, take on an entirely new dimension in your thoughts. Consider to that transmission of sound to the soundboard and into the box and the things it takes to get it from the string......THEN you can add in an entirely different set of circumstances when thinking through the wave thing. This can help explain why some people are obsessed with saddles or fretboard backing and materials or whatever. Just a few thoughts........ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 03 Jun 02 - 04:28 PM I am in the camp of a guitar improving as it is played - the former post was the inside of my head clicking. "I wonder" kind of thing. And I guess I still believe that learning to play each instrument is a new thing. I know this Gurian has a different neck than my Mossman and it is taking me some time to adjust to it. And the backside of the neck itself isn't as smooth - it hasn't been really played as much - and creates a bit of a grip (I don't know how else to explain it) when moving up and down the neck. As opposed to the Mossman which almost has a high speed escalator on the neck to move my hand around! So as I learn, and I'm a fair picker at times, I find that I need to reframe how I do the same moves on a different instrument. And as I begin to understand what the guitar wants I can pull a better sound from it. I firmly believe that anything that vibrates needs to vibrate a lot to improve. Especially when it's job is to vibrate! As the molecules line up they will harmonize and sound better together. And Spaw you are also correct - lots of things going on at once - Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Rick Fielding Date: 03 Jun 02 - 05:31 PM The finest guitar I ever owned sound and projection wise was a 1973 Mossman Golden Era. It simply exploded (with sound) when played properly. The damn neck on it twisted and the bugger wouldn't stay in tune, so I sold it after a couple of months. A couple of years ago I ran into the guy who bought it (20 years ago) and it sounded like Gawd himself made it with the extra aging. As he played it, I almost went nuts wanting to say to him "TUNE the damn thing"!!....then I realized two things....it still WOULDN'T tune....and he didn't know the difference.....so there ya go. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: michaelr Date: 04 Jun 02 - 02:16 AM Don - interesting point about the tailpiece/stop bridge issue. The tension on the top would certainly be reduced quite a bit by using a tailpiece, but why do only archtop makers use this approach? The Apollo guitar may sound great, but it sure looks clunky! Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Cappuccino Date: 04 Jun 02 - 04:51 AM Now, that's an interesting point from Steve - "as I begin to understand what the guitar wants..." I have only ever owned one decent guitar in my life, my now-gone Precision bass, and my remaining acoustics and electric/acoustic are impossibly cheap by the standards you guys are talking. I have never even touched a Martin or a Gibson. But I dearly love the mongrel jumbo (of unknown provenance and parentage) that I found in a London second-hand shop eight years ago for forty pounds. Tatty, dirty, rusty, and in awful condition. A lot of love and respect, and a lot of use, has produced a delightful sound from it. And now Steve's made me look at my guitars again and ask: 'what do you all expect from me, to bring out your potential?' Oh, Steve, you've got me talking to the bloody things, now... - Ian B
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Pete Jennings Date: 04 Jun 02 - 06:23 AM Well, interesting to read about guitars improvig wit age/playing. I bought a Martin 000-18 back in 1980 and I finally give up on it 5 years ago when I traded it in for and HJ-28. The 000 just never developed - never came out of itself like I expected it to, although it sounded great when amplified. Bit of a blessing in disguise because the HJ-28 is awesome. Big, round sound like a D, but the pinched waist gives it enough string definition for clean fingerpicking. From day one I could tune it by feeling the vibration of the back change as I turned the machine heads and soundwise it just keeps getting better and better. Mind you, I did put some 1:18 Gotoh's on it (and bought a Hiscox case for it rather that use the crappy thing that Martin supply these days). Pete
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 04 Jun 02 - 09:47 AM Well IanB I don't know if I would say that I talk to them - sing them lullabys? *G* But I do know that my two guitars require different strategies to get the sound I like from them. But it's OK Ian - If they talk back - wellll you might want to check that part out!
There is another thread with a link to a JDL Bridge system. I think this is the same thing as a tailpiece mounted item. Except it is internal. Makes for a strong argument about being able to set the bracing up for sound as opposed to strength. If it works it could revolutionize guitar building - or it may be an idea that has been around for a long time with mixed results.
Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Justa Picker Date: 04 Jun 02 - 09:57 AM This article was mentioned here a long time ago, but given this thread, thought I'd refresh it. Some interesting reading here. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:38 AM Are you guys saying that any guitar can sound good, depending on who is playing it, and that all guitars will improve with age? I'm not a GOOD player- but, as the saying goes, I know what I like. I've been in a bemused state ever since last week when I briefly played a pretty, blond, shiny, Korean-built guitar that sounded dead. There was no response, no resonance, no sustain. I was dismayed, although I tried not to show it. A friend had bought it for his son who wants to learn guitar. I did suggest he might want to change the string gauge. Now I'm thinking that a setup might make it much better. If the saddle and the nut were moved...? Any other suggestions? To complicate the situation, my friend had a musician friend of his check out a guitar of a certain brand at a music shop in a different town. The musician friend reported back that that guitar was pretty bad, but that at the shop there were some Korean ones that sounded pretty good. My friend told him, Send it down. Is it possible that the shop sent down a different one than the one the musician friend had chosen? Because that musician is VERY good and has been in the business a long time, and he would know what is good and what is so so.
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:55 AM Ebbie - I don't think we are saying that "any" guitar can sound good. At least my sense is that if a guitar has fairly good parts and pieces a good musician can get a better sound out of it than it may normally be capable of. Just Picker's article seems to support the notion that lots of playing will help some instruments improve due to a realignment of the cellular structure of the wood. In other words, instruments tend to improve with age. In the case of the guitar you are talking about there are too many variables to predict what it will do over time. And some guitars are just junk. For a new person wanting to learn I'd think that a playable action would be more important than sound. Nothing like blisters on fingertips to take the fun out of playing! Bottom line for me is this - A good quality guitar, properly set up, and regularly played is going to sound better than all of the above with no playing at all. There are a ton of variables involved. And any improvement after that is going to be judged by the person playing the instrument. It would have been nice, in the article Justa linked us to, if they had been able to delineate an improvement in the sound. Still in the Hmmmmmm side of things *G*.
Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Jun 02 - 12:14 PM I think that JP or Rick for instance can get some great sounds out of a POS that I never could, but also I need to add that "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." It's been my experience that you can make some beneficial changes to any guitar but overall a dog is a dog is a dog. Make changes to a great sounding instrument by adding bone or whale snot saddles and nuts and it will get better. do the same to a POS and you may not be able to tell the difference. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: mousethief Date: 04 Jun 02 - 01:32 PM Where can I get a whale snot saddle? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: GUEST,guitarfixer Date: 04 Jun 02 - 02:12 PM I interviewed Bill Collings years ago. He and a staff of about 15 workers build 1,000 spectacular guitars each year in Austin, TX. My question to Bill was "What is different about your guitars?" (They follow many traditional Martin and Gibson size and wood combinations.) His answer: "Nothing really. Everything. Each step makes a contribution to the whole. You can improve one thing and make the whole better. But you have to improve each thing a just little bit to make the whole a lot better." We live in a golden age of guitar building. The advantage of the small builder is that he or she can learn from each guitar and apply each kernel of new knowledge to the next instrument. Enthusiasts who have heard Collings, Santa Cruz, Lakewood or Goodall guitars of 8 or 10 years ago will find that their more recent instruments are much improved in sound. (Not that previous instruments from these guys weren't excellent.) These small shop builders keep refining their craft each year, seemingly on each guitar. Of course, tastes vary. The ideal ax for me is surely not the perfect choice for everyone else. But intonation, sophistication in harmonic structure, resonance, sustain characteristics; these are the combinations that send the chill down your spine and make you fall in "love at first listen." The main ingredient: the experience of the builder. On the other hand, we all know people who don't grow and build from experience, they just have the same experience every day until their life comes to an end. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 04 Jun 02 - 02:48 PM Whale snot
Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: JohnInKansas Date: 04 Jun 02 - 02:53 PM Norton1 - That's whale bone. True whale snot, called ambergris, floats up on the beach and they make parfume out of it. It would make your gitar stink. I think Spaw's foolin' with ya. John |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:24 PM Probably true John!! But then remember it IS Spaw now! GUESTguitarfixer - I agree with you. Attention to detail will make the difference between a really great instrument or one that is "OK". And your description of the process - your interview - was great!
On the other hand, we all know people who don't grow and build from experience, they just have the same experience every day until their life comes to an end.
Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: mousethief Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:38 PM Whale's not what I had in mind. Walrus is. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:47 PM Wait a minute.....Let me put credit where credit is due! The Whale Snot came up in some conversations between Rick, JP, and myself, and as I recall it may have been Rick who first said it. In any case, it's a lot better and funnier than saying "Fossilized Walrus Ivory."........especially since a walrus is not a whale and the stuff isn't smot and frankly is more rock than ivory at this point. What IS a fact is that the difference it made on JP's already fine instruments was marked!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 04 Jun 02 - 04:02 PM LOL - I liked the snot thing - and I will forever have it indelibly imprinted on my brain that it came from you Spaw!!! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jun 02 - 04:23 PM Alex, first you catch the whale... |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: GUEST Date: 04 Jan 06 - 09:30 PM A guitarist... |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: dick greenhaus Date: 05 Jan 06 - 10:02 AM A point that nobody seems to consider: A guitar string vibrates in several directions, which resolve into two planes.. The only part of this vibration tht contributes to the sound is the vibration in the up-and-down plane (the one vertical to the soundboard.) All side-to-side vibration is simply a waste of energy. I've found that fingerpicking enables one to have a great deal of control over the direction of vibration; flat-picking less so. I suspect that the reason that good guitarists make bad instruments sound good is that the tend to create more vertical string vibration than bad gutarists do, |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: Once Famous Date: 05 Jan 06 - 01:01 PM i don't agree. flat-picks can get just as much vibration thru direction up or down. a flat pick can product much more vibrations when plaing a chord. As far as finger-picking goes, finger picking with finger picks as opposed to bare fingers always seems to always give better volume, better intonation which undoubtably comes from a better vibration. I have not bothered to read this whole thread. A guitar's top and how much it vibrates is what I believe is what is producting the sound thru the sound chamber (on an acoustic). Picture a guitar string on a Fender Telecaster not plusgged in. Doesn't matter what kind of pick you use or don't use or how hard you pluck it. It's vibration hardly makes a sound. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: GUEST,Martin Luthier Date: 05 Jan 06 - 03:56 PM Martin Gibson, you really should read the posts above. Much knowledgeable stuff up there. Dick Greenhaus is right about the direction of the string vibration. Good classical guitarists "plant" a fingertip on a string (press it downward, toward the soundboard) before releasing it by snapping the fingernail across the string in either a rest stroke or a free stroke. The effect is to make the string vibration as perpendicular as possible to the plane of the soundboard. All of this happens in a split second, so it's hard for someone to observe. See Scott Tennant's DVD, "Pumping Nylon." The same thing is true of good guitarists who use a plectrum. The stroke of the plectrum should be at an angle (45o or so), down toward the soundboard so there is a strong perpendicular component to the string vibration. Judging from other posts of yours, I suppose you will not agree, but there is no point in arguing about this because the difference is measurable on oscilloscopes, even on an unamplified electric guitar, though the sound is so small that the ear may not be able to detect the difference. |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: s&r Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:35 AM Have a look here.. It shows something of the behaviour of the string. Some guitarists play off the nail; others prepare the note with the fleshy part of the finger. The nail excites the high harmonics giving a more metallic sound: this is similar to finger picks. The motion of the string is complex, but a simple view is that as the string deviates from its rest position (side to side or up and down) the tension increases, and the top of the saddle is pulled towards the nut. This gives a rocking motion to the bridge which causes the top to vibrate. The bridge together with the table acts as an impedance transformer allowing the energy in the string to move more air than it could otherwise do. The better the impedance match, the louder the sound but the less the sustain. The body cavity acts as a Helmholtz resonator, and reinforces the sound around the resonant frequency (about G# usually on a dreadnaught) The soundhole is part of the body tuning, and doesn't "let the sound out that would otherwise bounce around inside". There is a secondary effect of the soundhole which is akin to loudspeaker use - if there were no soundhole the air in the (now) enclosed box would act as a damper to the table vibration and the excursion would be limited, particularly at low frequencies. Virtually every part of the guitar is capable of influencing the tone to some degree since the whole instrument is a vibrating structure. The greatest influence on the volume and tone of the guitar is that contributed by the table. There's a lot of good stuff on the web but it akes a lot of study. Stu |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: GUEST,Richard Date: 06 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM Some great stuff on this thread. Here's a couple of points. One is that the sound hole acts like the bass ports on a speaker cabinet; ie it lets out the sounds below a certain frequency (depending on it's size and the internal volume of the box) in phase with the sounds coming from the front. Hence the interest in Tony Rice's enlarged sound hole Martin - I believe they make a model incorporating this. Another thing to consider is that the tonal differences caused by the way you hit the string only last for a few milliseconds, but the subjective impression lasts for the full length of the note; the full tonal effects of the guitar design and build etc. soon get excited (just like us). I remember hearing on the radio an experiment where a steel string, a classical and an electric guitar were recorded and played back without the starting transients, and it was vitually impossible to distinguish between them. And another thing! to do with aging. I have heard (don't remember where, sorry) that arched top tailpiece instruments like jazz guitars and fiddles age much more slowly than flat top pin bridge type ones; the difference being something like 300 years to 60; so the secret of a Stradivari is - the person who can build a 300 year-old instrument has cracked it, as it were! This seems to contradict the opinion expressed above of the Scotsman who built fiddles that sounded like Strads, but that's the wonderful world of wooden instruments for you. The more you learn, the less you know! Cheers, Richard |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: s&r Date: 06 Jan 06 - 12:56 PM Here's a fairly straightforward page about the physics of the guitar. Like most scientific explanations however it takes no account of personal preferences ie what sounds best. Stu |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Jan 06 - 01:37 PM s&r - 06 Jan 06 - 04:35 AM The applet you linked gives a very common but false impression of the motion of a plucked string. It's common to think of the string as always having a smooth sinusoidal shape, since that's what you see with the naked eye when you look at it; but you're seeing only the "outer envelope of the string motion." Each "bit" of the string slows down (and leaves a stronger visual impression) at the end of its travel, so you see that smooth shape, but there is no instant when all of the parts of the string are there at the same time. When you pull the string out to the release point the string is shaped like a lopsided "V." When you release the string at the pluck, each "bit" of the string moves up and down, but the reflected motion at the nut and bridge make the resultant displacement less than in the middle of the string, and the motions at the ends change direction at a different time than for the mid parts of the string, so that the actual string shape at any instant is a lopsided "W" of some shape. No part of the string ever has any significant velocity along the direction of the string, and there is virtually no change in the force (tension) in that direction corresponding to the frequencies of the string vibration; so there's simply no way that significant motion in that direction can be transmitted to the bridge. There is no significant "rocking" of a guitar bridge in the direction of the string tension, and attempting to improve guitar tone by making that sort of motion easier or harder is in the "fighting feathers" category. This isn't saying that it doesn't matter, because when you're trying to make all the tradeoffs, everything matters; but it doesn't matter much. In a fiddle, the tall bridge is made so that it's flexible with respect to stringwise directions, but this is because fiddle strings are at much lower tension, they're "stretchy" compared to guitar or other plucked string instruments, and the string motions are relatively much larger. The flexibility in that direction is to minimize the change in tension when the strings are stretched to prevent that motion from affecting the sound. The main motion input to a fiddle string is paralell to the plane of the bridge and to the top of the soundbox, and the motion you need to put into the soundbox is perpendicular to the top of the box. The conversion in direction is made by rotation of the bridge in its own plane by pivoting on the soundpost. The bridge is tall because the fiddle string motion is large but weak, while the soundbox motion is small but stiff, so you're using a lever length ratio for impedance matching in addition to the direction change. John |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: s&r Date: 06 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM John - it's worth spending a bit of time with the applet - it gives the best visualisation I've seen of a string plucked at different points, and shows the effect you describe graphically. The guy makes the point that it's a loaded string not a 'perfect' string Stu |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: s&r Date: 06 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM This is where I was browsing John - is it wrong? Stu |
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Subject: RE: Help: What makes a guitar make its sound? From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:30 PM Stu - With respect to the guitar bridge, I would say that he is wrong. There is very little change in tension at the bridge due to the sound vibration of the string. It is NOT changes in tension that drive the bridge. It's the transfer of momentum from the string to the bridge, and "momentum = motion." The ONLY "sensible motion" (& sense-able) of the string is straight up and down. (Or as noted, in a poorly plucked string, "whichever" direction(s) perpendicular to the string where it meets the bridge. Since the guitar bridge is an "imperfect machine" there will be unavoidable other wiggles, but the string tension changes very little, hence the bridge really can't be moved back and forth stringwise since the string doesn't move in those directions. Helmholtz got most of it in his 1874(?) physics book, published in English translation as On the Sensations of Tone as a Physiological Basis for the Theory of Music, Hermann L. F. Helmhotz, 2d English Edition reprinted ©1954 Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-60733-4, probably about $16 (US) at your local booksellers. It's very thorough, and mostly very boring (556 pages of b.o.r.i.n.g) unless you really want to know..., and even he missed a few things. Of course he didn't have oscilloscopes, eput meters, fast-fourier analysers, and real-time holographic displacement recorders - and a few other modern goodies, so some tolerance for his limitations is only fair. Another old standby that's probably at a local Barnes or Borders would be Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics, Arthur H. Benade, 2d ed ©1990 Virgina Benade, Dover 1990, ISBN 0-486-26484-X, probably about $16 - $18 (US) by now. Also quite thorough, but if anything even less readable than Helmholtz unless you're really really curious. And it's 19 pages longer than Hermann's. A decent instrument, set up and played, with a bit of thoughtful curiosity will probably help most players as much as reading books; but attempting "theoretical conclusions" without careful experiments (often the valid experimental results others have produced), is hazardous. John |
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