Minstrel Shows

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:37 PM

please excuse what may be considered thread drift here.

wysi, this is a wonderfully interesting topic, and prompts me to stray a little into my recent sihting of a group of uk morris men- bradshaw mummers.

one of the main parts of their performance is a mumming play about king george & the slaying of the dragon.

some of the actors are blacked up, but NOT for racist reasons.

for example,there's a moor [from morocco]

i've seen other morris sides in uk who blacken their faces, and ask would this have arisen in a similar fashion to the minstrels?

thanks again for this thread

mr happy

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:56 PM

The Stephen Foster Story (outdoor drama here in Bardstown) used to have a long portion in the middle of it which was a minstrel show. As the story goes, and you can read about it at this link, E.P. Christy of the Christy Minstrels obtained the rights to "Old Folks at Home" (Swanee River) which Stephen lived to regret.

Besides jazzing up that song, they had lots of jokes and slapstick similar to the Vaudeville tradition. ie. a character would ask a question/joke, another character would repeat it just in case the audience didn't hear it, then the first would answer with the punch line.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: SeanM
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 01:03 PM

The plot of Bamboozled basically follows a struggling black screenwriter in Hollywood. The writer, as a joke more or less based off the "the white producers won't buy quality so I'll give 'em THIS", presents a Minstrel show (I think it's billed "The New Millenium Minstrel Hour", hosted by ManTan & SleepnEat). The show turns out to be an incredible success.

It's not the best of films, and I honestly fear that the message of the film (fairly blunt Spike Lee attack on racism) gets lost behind what are some actually decent Minstrel numbers. There IS a moderately extensive montage at the end of the film featuring some of the 'high' points of blackface and racist portrayals of blacks on film.

M

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Deda
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:06 PM

wysi susan -- I appreciate you plenty! Can't believe that little aside slipped by without a response.

I'm interested in the ancient world (Greece/Rome) where slaves in comedies are often portrayed as much cleverer than their masters -- sometimes scheming and calculating, and more rarely bumbling dummies. Often the masters are the fools, the blind egotists or misers or whatever. You can see some of the ancient stereotypes in "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" -- which is basically a 3,000-year-old script with a few updates.

It's interesting that blackface basically moved from north (where there weren't as many slaves) to the south, and that ancient writers and audiences, but not 19th century shows as a rule, acknowledged that the slaves were often more competent than their "owners".

My grandfather was a folksinger who taught my mother (1911-1987) & aunt (1913-1997) to sing harmony, and a couple of the songs he taught them had terms like "Alabammy coon" and "all the other black trash". I actually have a period book of sheet music of that ilk. My mother sang us these as lullabies but also taught us never to sing them out loud in public -- she was a very active Civil Rights worker in the 60s.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Deda
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:19 PM

PS the plot of Bamboozled as sketched here sounds rather like the plot of Mel Brooks' "The Producers" which is such a huge hit on Broadway. The guy tries to come up with a plot that's sure to fail, starring Hitler, and it turns out to be a huge hit.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:29 PM

not a great movie, but worth seeing

BTW there is a long tradition in ANCIENT GREECE of blackface mask comedy, they called it Phlyax performance. hundreds of examples on ceramics from 5th c. BC and later of real Uncle Tom look alikes, very exaggerated African features, on obviously white actors, nothing new under the sun.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:56 PM

Lonesome EJ has a point when he says much of the old minstrel humor is too naive for these times. Comic songs such as Old Dan Tucker (many versions sung by various minstrel companies) have little that is humorous now. We have become too sophisticated.

Racial humor is difficult in public now, but it still thrives in the closet and in isolated groups that have not been contaminated by political correctness. Go to some of the Anabaptist colonies who live in closed communities (the Hutterites, for example), where the inhabitants still tell jokes of an evening, quite a number based on race.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 09:46 AM

Just a small additional note to Dicho's first message re: spreading these through the English-speaking world ...

They also spread into other languages. There are several minstrel songs which have been absorbed to varying degrees into the Welsh language repetoire. (Tell-tale signs include references to Jim Crow and exotic wildlife - like the whipoorwil.) One, "Moliannwn", is so popular it's achieved 'anthem' status in Welsh-speaking Wales.

sian

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 05:15 PM

Are you going to post them then, sian?

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: georgeward
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 01:09 AM

Wonderful thread, Susan. Thanks for starting it!

Here in eastern upstate New York, I know of one community whose minstrel show continued in blackface until roughly 1960. All the performers and all of the audience were white. After 1960, it went on nearly another thirty years without the burnt cork, finally fading away when its longtime organizer became too old to carry on and no one new stepped in.

Although we hadn't the time and tape to pursue this when we presented these folks in the 1980s, I'm pretty sure that the repertoire changed when they gave up the blackface. It was more a simple variety show than anything else in the last years.

A number of older-generation traditional musicians hereabouts, who came of age in the 1920s and '30s, would occasionally talk of having done a turn in a minstrel show - by which they meant the same sort of community/civic club thing, as Butch has mentioned.

I would call it an innocent form of racism (NOT innocuous). A few of these folks (like some of my rural high school students in the sixties) had never seen - let alone met - a person of color. They received the notion of black inferiority from the culture as a given, nonetheless. And while the burnt cork was liberating (as any masking is), it didn't change that. More likely, it reinforced it.

As much attention as the minstrel shows deserve - including discreet reenactments - I can't imagine a time when a very public revival wouldn't be both hurtful to at least some blacks (I don't mean political opportunists, although they'd surely jump in) and restimulating of behavior in some of my fellow whites that none of us ever want to revisit. Not in my lifetime; not in yours'.

-George

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 05:28 AM

Malcolm and Greg,

Actually, it was the influence of Irish music in black face minstrel music of the day. While I'm sure you both have a tremendous amount of knowledge about your music traditions, I've not seen any evidence that either of you has expertise in the field of African American or non-British Isles ethnic music traditions.

The reality of the influences of Irish on African American music, and vice versa, has to do with the patterns of immigrant migrations and internal migrations within the US in the Reconstruction era. There are just too many academic cites to give here, but if you are truly interested in the interactions between Scottish and Irish music and African American music (there just isn't as strong an influence in African American music from the English music traditions, and this has to do with proximity of music communities), I suggest you extend your research efforts beyond the conventional European/European American folk realm.

Not much research of note has been done in the field of folk music in the US of the commingling of these musical influences (or on jazz, zydeco, or ragtime for that matter). Rather, that research has been done by African American ethnomusicologists and anthropologists in the field of African American studies. That said, here are a couple books of relevance to this discussion:

Epstein, Dena J. Sinful Tunes and Spirituals: Black Folk Music to the Civil War. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1977. Classic scholarly study of slave music.

James, Willis Laurence. Stars in de Elements: A Study of Negro Folk Music. Edited by Jon Michael Spencer. Black Sacred Music: A Journal of Theomusicology, vol. 9. Raleigh, N.C.: Duke University Press, 1995. Insightful folkloric approach.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Butch
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 08:26 AM

George, I can not agree with your final statement more. My interest is not in reviving the minstrel show as a form of entertainment, ( it would be insulting and harmful) but rather to revive important elements of the musical repitoire that might help audiences grasp the shared culture represented by this music. I also hope to revive the playing style of this music in the same way other historic time periods have been revived for both entertainment and education. Audiences are too little exposed to histoically accurate music portrayals.

Guest. I also agree with your opeing statement. But I must strongly disagree with the timeframe. The Celtic/African connection goes to the very beginning of the banjo itself and the earliest roots of minstrel music.

Joel W. Sweeney was the first known white to make the banjo popular in white society. He was also an early minstrel. He being of Celtic decent, he mixed the African banjo with the Celtic repitoire. That in fact is the very advent of American popular music! We do not need to wait for reconstruction to see the interaction between the cultures, look at all of the early (pre-1865) banjo instruction manuals. They are full of Irish tunes and Celitc based tunes, mixed with the more African instrument and beats of early minstrelsy. Jigs and reels, not found in the African tradition but strong in Celtic culture, are found in these early repitoires. The presence of tha banjo alone, mixed with these tunesn is evidence of the cultural interaction.

We hope to have a whole section of next years banjo exhibit and book devoted to this cross cultural developement.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 10:28 AM

I think the first thing to realize about any use of this music now is that there ARE people who are approaching it seriously and in a scholarly fashion, whose interest is not in just playing around with stereotypes.

GUEST, would you be so kind as to use some kind of screen name in your posts in this thread? With your obvious knowledge of music, I want to ensure that if other GUESTs weigh in we can keep it straight who is saying what, and be sure it's clear to whom specific repsonses are directed. Thanks also for sharing those sources.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 10:59 AM

Butch,

Using the word Celtic is just needlessly confusing the issue. Sweeney was Irish, not Celtic.

The banjo is an African instrument.

If people wish to know the history of the black faced minstrel shows, they need to know their US immigration history. There were several strands of black face minstrel shows, including the New York/Bowery based shows, and the San Francisco shows. Both cities had substantial Irish immigrant populations, who initially made up the companies which performed the shows. After about 1870 or so, in New York particularly, the companies' immigrant population shifted to become Eastern European Jews performing black face.

Nary an Englishman in the lot, save for Daddy Rice, the man who is said to have invented Jim Crow.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 11:04 AM

Sorry, hit the send button too soon.

I also intended to mention that folk music historians aren't very knowledgeable about this music. One is better off going to dance history and theatre history sources. The black face minstrel phenomenon did grow out of the English music hall tradition, just as vaudeville grew out of minstrel shows.

As to the black face tradition among English/Welsh mummers/morris dancers, though I haven't studied it, I believe it could well have come into being after the American minstrel shows toured Britain. If you look at the photographic and memorabilia evidence, the way they are made up in both countries is virtually identical.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST,Butch at Work
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 03:45 PM

Actually there were a number of men whose ancestry was English. :

Frank Converse, S. Leavit, Matt Peal, James Buckley, Dan Rice, Luke West, Geo. Briggs

Irish was not the only influence. That is why I used the term Celtic (which may still be less than correct if you also count men like Brower who had German ancestry).

Also, reconstruction may have added new dimensions to the interaction between Irish and African music, but we can still document huge interactiosn between these forms of music well before the Civil War. Sweeney was the example I used, but Cece Conway has documentsed others as well. I can try and quote some of her work if it is of interest, but as I am at work, the information is not at my fingertips right now.

The banjo itself is but one of the outcomes of this interaction of cultures. The banjo came from Africa as several archtypes. None of these were truly banjos, but over time the banjo emerged as a separate instrument. The African influence is clear and can not be denied, but what of the German influence of Hanoverarian Wiliam Boucher,the first commercial builder and inventor of the head tightening system? These influences must also be investigated.

On the mumming end, I just read a very good work that looks at the mumming traditions and minstrelsy. It is called" The Demons of Disorder" by Dale Cockerell. He finds blackface in mumming well into the middle ages. The book is worth the read.

George

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 04:45 PM

There is little doubt that the banjo is a descendant of instruments used in Africa. An instrument in the hands of slaves consisting of half a calabash, covered with skin and with a long neck, in mentioned toward the end of the 17th century. By the late 18th century, the banjo as we know it had evolved into the manufactured instrument we know today, probably with the expertise of men like Boucher, as suggested by Butch. These facts are synthesized in Dena J. Epstein, 1977, Sinful Tunes and Spirituals, Univ. Illinois Press, the book which perhaps says most in one volume about the early instruments of the slaves. (The development of the banjo is not discussed, but she reproduces a painting, late 18 C. from SC in which a black musician is playing a very modern-looking banjo, so the instrument we know had evilved by the 1780s). Drums were frequent in the earliest days, but were outlawed in many areas.

We think of the Irish-English-Scots influence because these immigrants were or became English-speaking. Many Irish landed at southern ports from the Carolinas to New Orleans before the Civil War, but Germans and central Europeans were also influencing the music; the tunes are there, particularly in the dance music.
Butch is correct when he mentions that blackface portrayals go way back in European culture. Rather than Celtic or English, "European" is perhaps a better term for immigrant musical traditions.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 05:04 PM

a theory as to why 'morris' dancers are so called is that the name 'morris' derives from 'moorish'[moroccan]dances that had been glimpsed by british soldiery abroad.

your thoughts please

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 05:10 PM

i meant to make the point that black face morris sides may take their tradition from this, or may they also have been influenced by minstrel shows?

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 10:21 AM

I disagree that it is more accurate to portray the whites who performed in blackface at minstrel shows as either "Celtic", "European", or "English".

Why? Because it denies the realities of the immigration factors.

It is true that the Irish and (in much higher numbers) the Scots Irish were immigrating through the Carolinas before the Civil War. But the reality is, their numbers don't come near to what the numbers of English immigrants were in those areas pre CW. That is why you see stronger influences of the English ballad traditions in Appalachia.

But to deny that the majority of the white black face performers were Irish and Jewish, just so we can include and handful of German and Englishmen, is ludicrous in a "let's stand reality on it's head" sort of way.

Why any ancestral group would even WANT to claim the mantle at this point in history is beyond me. I consider the minstrel shows so inherently racist to be beyond redemption. I am absolutely opposed to them being revived, especially as historic re-enactments.

As to black face and mumming, I've read some background information about it supposedly going back to the Middle Ages too. I just don't think the sources (which I can't remember now, its been a number of years since I read that information) are examples of it being as widespread as many contemporaries claim it to be. I still think the use of black face among mummers of the late 19th, early 20th is down to influences of travelling minstrel shows of that time. Putting it down to "our father's father's" claims, and then using flimsy and limited evidence, is largely being done to protect mummers from criticism about it being racially motivated behavior. We certainly see plenty of that here in the States too. In this very thread, in fact, where some people have said they think resurrecting the black face minstrel shows is A Good Thing.

I think the subject should be taught academically as part of US history, because of the tremendous popular influence of the shows, but I think we should leave it at that. Something to be studied, discussed, and reflected upon, but certainly not performed.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Butch
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 11:25 AM

I never denied that the majority of minstrels were Irish and later Jewish. You stated that NONE were English, I was simply trying to point out that some were. I also stated that my use of Celtic was not the best.

As far as mumming goes, before I enter into any further points on this matter, please read Dale Crockrell's book. His evidence seems better than most that I have seen. The fact that characters with black faces do show up very early on and in many documentable ways needs to be investigated. I am NOT saying that modern mumming has not been influenced by minstrelsy, I only state that evidence exists that would show us that the basic tradition is older than minstrelsy. Much of the better scholarship on this subject has been done in the last 10 years. You might want to look into this new evidence and then decide if it does or does not meet your requirements for good scholarship.

I do agree that this should be taught in the schools. I do teach this in school and have for the last five years. I know of at least 15 other college level courses taught on the subject. I wish it were closer to 150. I do not advocate the revival of these shows as a form of entertainment. I do, however, think that we should perform these shows in limited venues, for academic purposes, since there are no extant films of these early shows. Much can be learned from accurate portrayals on stage.

If we agree that the shows are not to be brought back, then what of the music. Do we stop singing O Susanna? Do we continue as we are, or do we use this and other tunes to educate the public?

Last thing--- I really hate it when I do not know who I am talking to, could you please give us a name Guest? To show you that I am willing to give mine as well, I close

George C. Wunderlich (Butch to all who have known me since childhood)

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 12:51 PM

It seems we all agree that performance in the context of a teaching opportunity makes sense... that performance for the sake of performance is problematic (tricky, fraught with potential difficulties)... but that in the context of teaching, one would have to perform as well to illustrate what one is going on about?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 01:19 PM

Question to Butch (and others). It has been many years since I studied Latin and I have forgotten nearly all of it, but I seem to remember a reference to some Roman plays that were performed in blackface. There were black slaves in Rome, but beyond that, my memory fails to yield any facts.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Butch
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 01:53 PM

Susan, I may not be picking up your question in the right context, but let me tell you how I see minstrelsy in a teaching world.

There are historical reenactment groups that are very well researched and can give an accurate performance of the old (pre 1865) style of minstrel show. One group in particular is the Amoskeag Players from New Hampshire. They have done one or two blackface shows for for educational reasons. They also perform at reenactments, colleges, universities and museums in period clothing, playing correct instruments in the correct style, but not in blackface and not as a minstrel show. They give a brief history of each song and then perform it. This type of perfomance makes a wonderful public education forum. It can also be used by teachers as a adjunct to classroom lecture. Despite their use of some period dialects and non-pc lyrics, the performance goes over well with all audiences due to the understanding of the educational intent.

When I teach a class on minstrelsy, I give an 80/20 split: 80% lecture and 20% performance. I do not black up, but do go through the humor, makeup, clothing, instrumentation and art related to the subject. I have had mixed race audiences and have not had any problems. We have had some great debates, but always in the most positive way.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 01:54 PM

Butch, I never said there weren't any other European Americans involved in the minstrel shows. You just thoughtlessly misinterpreted what I said, for reasons unknown to me (and probably you too, if you don't read any more carefully than that).

I'm not trying to be contrary. What I said in my post to Malcolm and Greg was (and I quote exactly here):

"...there just isn't as strong an influence in African American music from the English music traditions, and this has to do with proximity of music communities"

Now, those words do not mean there was NO influence on the minstrel show traditions from the English. I have acknowledged, as one example, Daddy Rice. I also noted that the minstrel show grew out of the English music hall tradition. That hardly is claiming there was no influence.

What I was trying to say was, it makes no sense to draw an inordinate amount of attention to the exception rather than the rule. That sort of focus just tends to confuse matters, not bring greater clarity. I'm a big fan of clarity, not a big fan of obfuscation, which, IMO, is what you get when you focus on the exceptions rather than the rule.

You and I aren't disagreeing about any major facts here, and I'm enjoying the discussion. :) I hope you are too.

OK--as to mummming, I haven't read the book you mentioned, and I won't be able to anytime soon unfortunately. It does sound interesting. It has been over five years since I read up on mumming in England, so my recollection is in no way fresh. I agree, the older scholarship in the field of folk traditions was often bad, and I did place the stuff I read about mumming was homage and panegyric, than insight and illumination.

I agree it should be studied further. Especially if there has been an attempt to suppress/distort the historic facts about black face and mumming to make it appear as if it wasn't a by-product of racist minstrel shows. However, even if it is proved to be rooted in the Middle Ages (which I still doubt seriously), that in no way, IMO, means that it should be performed nowadays, because the power of Jim Crow, et al is simply too close to the surface for blacks. It hurts and offends them deeply to see those stereotypes being used as "entertainment" for white audiences. I care much more about those feelings and sensitivities than I do historic accuracy, because to them it is a HUGE matter culturally, whereas I don't think it is that important to the performance of mumming, or to the English in a cultural sense anymore anyway.

So why hurt so many human beings by performing "Oh Susanna" (which I was taught in elementary school growing up, along with all the other racist songs of that era)? Why? There are a million great songs to sing from that era which are "historically accurate" that don't rip open an entire culture's wounds like that. What will we learn from continuing to perform them, even academically? Nothing useful I can think of. Leave them to the archivists, and let those who wish to learn about them, for whatever reasons, access them freely.

There aren't any films of minstrel show performances? Fine by me. I would be opposed to the resurrection of the performances as historic re-enactment, because I believe historic re-enactments usually distort the truth of history. We really can't "re-enact" them realistically. We just aren't capable of that sort of wizardry as humans--we are captives in our own time, truly. We live and create here. Our ancestors lived and created in a very different time and place from us. One that we can peek into, but never really get a sense of with any breadth of understanding or awareness of the lives they lived.

Of course, we still must try--it is very important to understand what happened in the past (which is why I argued over the importance of keeping the immigration history straight and in accordance with the music history!). But it certainly isn't of tantamount importance that we delve as far into that past as starting to perform racist music again, especially when we haven't reflected upon and come up with good justifications for doing it. "Because we can" or "because our father's father's performed this song this way" isn't good enough for me as a white American. I certainly don't think it would be a good enough justification for the black descendants of slaves.

I was glad to see someone mention Spike Lee's film "Bamboozled". I thought it was FABULOUS. Not great filmmaking in a technical sense, but like his "Do the Right Thing", that didn't matter, because he succeeded in broaching the subject of race relations (in "Do the Right Thing"), and race subjugation (in Bamboozled) with such great power.

The silence that greeted "Bamboozled" in the black community was astounding. That in itself should tell us that the wounds are still much too fresh and deep among blacks, for whites to start performing this material again, especially "academically". Whether it is accurate or not, academics and educators are often perceived by people of color as being able/allowed to get away with racist behavior in ways that others never would be (ie entertainers, in this case), because they claim to be doing it for posterity's sake, or in the cause of "education" of the public.

I agree with the latter sentiment. I don't think we need to keep using Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" to teach American literature of that era, when there are other really good writings by Twain and other excellent American writers we can use instead. Same is true for "Little House on the Prairie" books--I think they deserve to be dropped from the curriculum in American elementary schools, because they deeply offend and hurt Native Americans.

No book or song is so important that it should trump our new found racial sensitivities, IMO. To use controversial things like minstrel songs artistically (as Spike did in his film) as a means of social commentary, is a wholly different thing than reviving the tradition to be used as entertainment, or worse--fuel for extreme racist groups.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 02:08 PM

Susan, I would say that the performance of the songs would need to be limited to an audience that has the developmental capacity for understanding the race issues in context, which for the most part wouldn't include many students under age 16 or so, IMO.

As to courses on the minstrel shows, I'd say college age. I'm not in favor of these as all ages family shows on a Sunday at the history museums.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 03:08 PM

Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" is a classic denunciation of slavery, couched in the language and thought of the time. It is the great American novel. People who claim it denigrates a race cannot read and know nothing of our history. The attitudes of the past can only be understood through the writings of the past. Yet many would substitute pap.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 04:56 PM

With all due respect Dicho, bullshit.

Huckleberry Finn continues to be an extremely controversial book in the African American community, and I have never found them to be people "who cannot read and know nothing of our history."

Quite the contrary. They read very well, and have no trouble understanding the racial contexts of the book. Which is why many of them object to it being required reading in the public school curriculum.

As long as something just as good exists which can be substituted, and it does, there is no reason not to drop the book.

Way too many white people suddenly get sentimentally attached to these books, but only when communities of color request they be dropped from the curriculum, and better books put in.

Having worked in the public school system libraries most of my adult life, I can tell you there are plenty of books that can be substituted for "Huckleberry Finn" in the curriculum. Notice I didn't say take the books out of the libraries--I just said it is easy enough to find excellent additions to the curriculum, if people choose to negotiate rationally, rather than immediately take the suggestion that better books should be used. And believe me, the school districts could be choosing MUCH better books for the curriculum, but they go with the same old, same old because that way, they don't have to challenge themselves and their constituencies by looking too closely at what they are teaching.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 06:14 PM

Guest, we will never agree.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 01:19 AM

Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" is a classic denunciation of slavery, couched in the language and thought of the time. It is the great American novel. People who claim it denigrates a race cannot read and know nothing of our history. The attitudes of the past can only be understood through the writings of the past. Yet many would substitute pap.

Well said Dicho. Everyone, including Guest, is entitled to their own opinion, but anyone who reads Huckleberry Finn and does not see it as one of the great picaresque novels of all time, as a great work of humor, and who cannot see that the character of Huck confronts the issue of slavery by concluding that, although it is "right" by all the laws of his elders, he must abide by his own conscience and do "wrong", is looking at the novel with the kind of hot-button, single-dimensional viewpoint that the censors love. It is certainly Twain's greatest work. I wonder how many of its virulent critics have taken the time to actually read it.

It seems to me our time would be better devoted to engendering in our children the desire to read literature, than in haggling about what constitutes "dangerous" reading matter.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 08:23 AM

Guest, can you say more about how the African-American community views the portrayal of racial stereotypes in Huckleberry Finn, and what is said to be the problem? One may agree or disagree that the book perpetuates stereotypes, but how about if we first get a clearer understanding of what it feels like, from that view?

Also, are all of the Guest posts in this thread from one person? Could you please, so that we can keep things straight, take a name for the purposes of this thread, as has been requested, and idicate which posts have been yours?

Thanks,

~Susan

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 08:55 AM

Dicho, as you pointed out, we will never agree. Lonesome EJ, you are merely expressing your opinion of the book Huckleberry Finn. Your opinion is not fact, not is it "the truth" for me, or for those who do not share your opinions.

Now, what IS fact, and true, is that there are many other wonderful books from that era, including other wonderful books by Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens, which can be added to the teaching curriculum. As I said, I am NOT advocating censorship. I am advocating for an updated, expanded curriculum which doesn't include Huckleberry Finn.

The reason why I advocate for it being dropped is because it can be included on recommended reading lists. It is widely available through school and public libraries. But to teach the book as a "classic" in this day and age, IMO, is hurtful to our African American communities who are offended by the racial stereotyping in it. I feel the same way about the "Little House on the Prairie" books.

Communities of color just haven't made that many requests for books to be dropped from the curriculum. Considering that the same ones come up over and over again should tell the dominant white communities that there is a problem with those few books. In the interest of good relations, as well as of being sensitive to the sensibilities of ALL our communities, not just our own, I believe it is the right thing to do. And I certainly don't think it is too much to ask of us to do it.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 09:00 AM

I also find it highly problematic when the people who love Huckleberry Finn and don't believe it perpetuates negative stereotypes of blacks are white people. Especially when those white people can't form a cogent argument for keeping the book in school curriculums.

That just makes me suspect that their motives have little if anything to do with the book, and whole lot to do with them not wanting to be told what to do by black people.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 09:22 AM

Guest, would you be so kind as to address my questions and take a name?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 09:29 AM

Friends, I had hoped that by keeping the focus on music, specifically Minstrel Shows and issues related to them for us as musicians, this thread could accumulate some good historical information, sources, some details about how people may be using this music now, and some interesting viewpoints as musicians.

Now we are going off in another direction, less to do with the music itself, MUCH harder to keep focused nad positive, and really difficult to handle without body language, tone of voice, and actually knowing one another. I say this from some solid experience working on racism issues with people. The issues are too important to use poor tools on them, and there are far better tools than Mudcat to use.

May I suggest that we stick with what had been working in this discussion, avoid quick responses to hot-button statements, and take some time to reflect on what we have posted so far?

Thanks,

~Susan

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST,Butch at work
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 04:48 PM

Susan, I agree. Our guest seems to jump from one subject to another. Back to music. I disagree with Guest on the use of songs like O Susanna. I believe we should play them. These are the songs that helped form our modern musical experience. But more importantly, they can unite rather than divide.

I once sat in St. Louis and played with a friend to the Mississippi river. As we played , we heard a man in the background sing the words to our tune ( Old Uncle Ned). He was an elderly black gent about 65 years old. He sat down and asked why his grandchildren did not hear that music anymore. I told him that people felt that this music was racist. After he laughed for a bit, he said that this was the music of his grandmother and formed a part of his childhood. He said that racism is in the heart of the man, not in his music. He also stated that yes we may need to update some offensive words, but not loose the music. IT WAS TOO IMPORTANT TO HIM.

I agree with him. To loose this music is to loose a part of us as a people. Without the minstrel music of the mid 19th century you could not have had men like Joplin or Handy who would move that music forward to a new form of music in early jazz. I feel that it is more racist to say, "I won't play this because you are black and I might offend you" I prefer to say:" I mean no disrespect, but this music is part of our history, do you mind if I play it". Nine times out of ten I am allowed to play. The tenth time I respectfully shut up and sit down. Respect is the key here. If you respect your audience, and they knowit, you can play this music without much if any offence. If you patronize your audience, forget it, you already lost your audience.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 05:49 PM

Butch, where you at?

~S~

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 10:39 PM

Butch's remarks above remind me of experiences in Houston, which I used to visit on business. My favorite restaurant, with heavy old south menu, was staffed by older Negro men. Their service was impeccable except that it was accomplished with a restrained performance of the old massa- servant routine, entered into by the local patrons. I had two Canadians with me, and it made them uncomfortable; they were uncertain of what was going on or how to respond.
One night I ate there late and, since my companions were going in one direction and I in another, I waited outside for a taxi, and one of the old gentlemen was also waiting for a relative to pick him up. We talked about their routine and about racial problems. He said he enjoyed the byplay, but he had a grandson in university who objected strongly. He felt that his grandson was completely ignorant of the old relationships, but he had grown up with them, but now he felt no restraints and that he didn't have time for rancor. He was also one of the first I met who was collecting black memorabilia, he was taking home a plate showing a large black cook threatening a picaninny (his word) that a customer had brought to him.
Racism can only be fought with clear insistance that rights are observed, but that does not mean denying or distorting the past.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:15 AM

picking up on the point of not wanting to offend people in any sections of our society.

above last few mails[dicho,butch]reminded me of the film 'the producers'- the scene where the chorus line of female nazi stormtroopers are singing 'springtime for hitler'.

the audience [clearly, many of them appear to be jewish]are extremely shocked- mouths agape- until they begin to realise its being presented by the male lead as a parody-and all shriek with laughter.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Butch
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:13 AM

Susan, I now live in western Maryland, about n hour from DC.

George

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:02 AM

Snuffy, sorry to be late rejoining the thread but, if you want the words:

Moliannwn (Let's Rejoice)

Nawr lanciau rhoddwn glod
Y mae Gwanwyn wedi dod
A'r Gaeaf a'r oerni aeth heibio
Daw'r coed i wisgo'u dail
A mwyniant mwyn yr haul
A'r wyn ar y dolydd i brancio.

(Now, boys, let's rejoice that Spring had come, and the Winter with it's coldness is past. The woods are in leaf, the gentle sunshine, and the lambs prancing in the meadows)

Chorus:
Moliannwn oll yn llon,
Mae amswer gwell i ddyfod - Ha! Haleliwia!
Ac ar ôl y tywydd drwg
Fe wnawn arian fel y mwg
Mae arwyddion dymunol o'n blaenau
Ffwdl ladl la, ffwdl ladl la, ffwl la la La la la la (X2)

(Let's all rejoice cheerfully, There are better times to come. Ha! Halleluja! And following the bad weather, we'll make money like smoke; there are good times ahead!)

Daw'r robin goch yn llon
I diwnio ar y fron
A Cheiliog y Rhedyn i ganu
A chawn glywed Wiparhwîl
A llyffantod wrth y fîl
O'r goedwig yn mwmian chwibanu

(The red robin merrily tunes up, and the grasshopper sings, and we can hear the Whipoorwil and thousands of toads murmuring from the woods)

Fe awn i lawr i'r dre
Gwir ddedwydd fydd ein lle
A llawnder o ganu ac o ddawnsio
A chwmpeini naw neu ddeg
O enethod glân a theg
Lle mae mwyniant y byd yn disgleirio

(We'll go down to town, where we'll be truly happy, as much singing and dancing as we could want, and the company of nine or ten beautiful girls where the world radiates with loveliness

OK - crap translation, but mine own. There's been a book written about the song (but in Welsh) which traces the whole process. The second verse is the most interesting in that whipoorwils are unknown over here - so, odd that it wasn't replaced by something native (unless the translator wanted to keep something 'exotic')

From here

"Moliannwn", the most famous folk tune in Wales was written by Bethesda, North Wales native Benjamin Thomas who lived in South Poultney when he first came to the region in the 19th century and is buried in a nearby Vermont community. "Moliannwn" celebrates the arrival of spring and the Whippoorwills that were then abundant on Lake St. Catherine. "

It's overstating it to say that it is the "most famous folk tune", but as I said early, it does have 'anthem' status. Sorry, but I can't find a site with the tune, but if you could hear it, you'd have no doubts of its origin!

sian

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:43 AM

Sian, I am a little confused. From your posts I understand that "Moliannun" has something to do with a whippoorwill and that the song was written by a Welshman who moved to Vermont, but where does the minstrel connection come in?
Incidentally, the robin he was talking about has nothing to do with the bird called a robin in the UK. And toads? I think he was talking about tree frogs.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:38 AM

I never suggested anyone deny or distort the past. I just suggested we leave things like certain racist minstrel songs, which are SO offensive and disturbing to most African Americans (black old men who survived the Jim Crow era known personally to several Mudcat members notwithstanding) IN THE PAST.

Just leave them there. We don't bring every song ever written throughout history with us into the present, so why this insistence on continuing to perform this body of work which so offends and hurts one specific segment of our society our ancestors hurt so badly to begin with? Where is the humanity in that? That is what you are trying to balance here at the end of the day, isn't it? Whether the historic value of performing these songs should supercede the humanitarian value of not performing them?

I think, if people are wondering about whether it is appropriate to sing these songs, and if so, when it is appropriate to sing them, and to what audiences, ask yourselves this--as a white performer, are you willing to go to Howard University and sing them to an all black audience of educated blacks as a music historian?

No? I thought not.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:51 AM

Mr. Happy, the analogy to The Producers works fairly well in this context. First off, Jews aren't the only people who could easily be offended by "Springtime for Hitler" though I appreciate that was what Mel Brooks was reaching for--something that was profoundly offensive to the sensibilities of American Jews. Which is the same point (but with a different intention) Spike Lee is aiming for with Bamboozled. Find the most profoundly offensive "entertainment" to the sensibilities of an African American audience.

The point is, both men knew and realized the effect that using that point of sensitivity in each of their cultures would have in their artistic work, both of which use satire and parody a good deal throughout. Both Brooks and Lee build offense after offense as a plot device in their stories.

The thing is though, they weren't SERIOUSLY suggesting that these things had any intrinsic value, except to the most morally corrupt and greedy entertainment industry types.

Why is that message falling on deaf ears here? The point that both Brooks and Lee made was that the stuff NEVER should be done, precisely because it is SO hurtful and offensive to these particular audiences, and anyone who would engage in such a ruse for profit (or power, or notoriety, or whatever you think you might gain from the performance of minstrel shows/songs) should immediately be seen as morally suspect.

Very good analogy, Mr. Happy. But I'm guessing I'm interpreting it differently than you are.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:57 AM

Why not? As a music historian it would be an appropriate performance.

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:35 PM

Just saw "Babes on Broadway" on cable--it features a little warning at the beginning before the title credits, to wit, "Warning:Contains Racially sensitive material, viewer discretion advised."This Busby Berkeley classic, featuring, Judy and Mickey, features a spectacular finale tribute to the Minstrel shows of old, in blackface--a couple weeks back, I saw an early sound short of an abreviated minstrel show, featuring real performers from the old minstrel circuits-and it was really, really good! So like it or not, it is coming back--

It is worth noting that Philadelphia, which is the home of a particularly elaborarate and extensive mummers tradition. also was the starting point for on of the major minstrel circuits--the Mummer's theme is "Dem Golden Slippers" which was written by James Bland, a , who was both a performer and probably the greatest songwriter of minstrelry, and was also a black man and graduate of Howard University--the capper is that many, many them members of the Philly string bands are Irish-Americans, and on occasion, even in the 90's were marching down Broad Street in blackface--

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:58 PM

Why is that message falling on deaf ears here?

I don't think a word anyone has said here has fallen on deaf ears, and it's inaccurate to assume that declining to respond can be characterized in any particular fashion. I think that a lot of people just feel the way I do-- that continued discussion on such a sensitive topic needs for us to be able to identify who has said what, before responding. There have been polite and repeated requests to take some name for the purpose of this thread, and none of the GUESTS (however many there are) has responded to THAT.

And it's too bad, because some excellent posts have been made, and I would have liked to pursue some of them, but it's just too much work to sort it all out without some kind of nametag. I'm as busy as anyone else, if not more so this particular week, and it's not how I choose to allocate my time or energy.

Simply stated, the topic is complicated enough without mixing in the question of whether the person who said "Statement A" on such and such date is the same person who said "Statement B" on another date.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:12 PM

And now, back to music, and I have something that may have enough upset in it to send us to a Part Two of arguing!

REDEMPTION. Things can be redeemed.

For instance, I have come across a couple of minstrel show items that I didn't know were minstrel show items, and they make FINE songs for our Saturday Night service at church..... up to the last verse, or a hurtful term used, and so forth. Some of the tunes and lyrics, though, are JUST RIGHT except for that. These are not parodies of gospel... they ring too true. What I think they are, are flawed representations of imperfectly understood traditions, or representations of what was true at the time but which were used to build limiting stereotypes.

I'm not asking you all what I SHOULD do with these-- but telling you what we DO do. We use them, just like any other gospel piece I find that I can use. I edit, I modify, I write new verses, and then when we do it, I say it is BASED ON a piece that would not be appropriate today as written, but that can serve us well now in a new form. That's entirely within my purview as music leader for that service-- and I do the same with hymns of other denominations if the theology does not work for ours in a verse or phrase. People are free to ask me for information about the original, and sometimes they do, but we are focused firmly on what we are doing in present time, and we are worshipping, not re-enacting.

Comments?

*G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Butch
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:48 PM

As they said back in the days of old---- Bully for you! Well done! If the song fits, use it.

Butch

Subject: RE: Minstrel Shows
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:58 PM

Somewhere above, it was suggested that the song "O Susanna" by Foster be discarded. I remember that the last time we sang it in school (middle grades somewhere in a program on Foster) the offending words were changed. Two verses remained complete as written (places where changes were made become obvious if you look at the original lyrics).
The thought that came into my mind was the old trite one that the baby was being thrown out with the bathwater. Perhaps this is a partial answer to the one you pose, WYSIWYG, and it looks like the position you have taken on the use of these songs.