Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:58 AM

Jimmy C,

What the hell do you think you're doing barging in here and bringing the thread back to what it was supposed to be about? ;)

Seán,

There's another thread (actually two) just started about "Any old (Irish) iron?" which proves my point, given that it has nothing at all to do with Norn Iron.

Les,

love the one about the alligators, it should be cross-referenced to the "alligator song" thread.

Subject: Lyr Add: LAKES OF PONTCHARTRAIN
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:53 PM

I just posted to the earlier Ponchartrain thread thinking I was here at this one. That post relates to the Illinois version of LOP that I posted some of there.-----Please keep in mind that a major battle of the Civil War was fought at Cairo, Illinois. The guy could've been mustered out of the army there at the southern tip of Illinois where the Ohio River flows into the Mississippi River.---That is a strategic spot where control of the riverwas important for the North. It was way to cut off stuff from getting to the South. Even if he deserted after just "having had enough"-------it's a wonderful song that hits folks hard on the old nostalgia button. Once they know about it, they want to make it their own----and that's in the best aspects of the good old ORAL TRADITION. We in America had no "lords or ladies" supposedly, but we sure did sing about those--especially in the Appalachian hills. So take it for your own. That's pretty cool to my way o' thinking.

Hell, I'll just post it here too---might as well.(Please note "THE KIND CARESS" in the last verse. More was going on than meets the ear here. Check out the film Shakespeare In Love for a parallel love tale.

It was on the 3rd of January I bid Cairo town adieu,
Travelled down the river road my fortune to pursue,
No money in my pocket and no credit could I gain,
And my mind it turned with longing to the lakes of Ponchartrain.

I swung on board of an old boxcar just as the day did dawn,
I rode the rods from sun to sun and I lit down again,
And as the shades of eveninf fell the lowground I did gain,
And there I I met with a Creole girl on the shores of Ponchartrain.

I said, "My lovely Creole girl, my money does me no good,
If it were not for the alligators I'd sleep out in the woods,"
"You are welcome here kind stanger though our cottage is quite plain,
We never put a stranger out to the wilds of Ponchartrain."

She took me into her mother's house and she treated me right well,
Her hair hung down in ringlets and on her shoulders fell,
I tried to paint her beauty but alas it was in vain,
So handsome was my Creole girl by the shores of Ponchartrain.

I asked her if she would marry me and she said that it never could be,
She said that she had a lover dear and he was out to sea,
She said that she had a lover dear and there/true she would remain,
'til he returned to to claim his bride on the shores of Ponchartrain.

So it's here's to you my Creole girl who I ne'er shall see no more,
I'll ne'er forget your kind caress in that cottage by the shore,
And at each social gathering a flowing bowl I'll drain,
And I'll drink a health to the Creole girl by the shores/lakes of Ponchartrain.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:31 AM

I hope this doesn't come across as being too pedantic, but the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names gives PONTCHARTRAIN as the correct spelling. Note the "T" as the fourth letter.

I mention this in order to help people who might want to search for Ponchartrain/Pontchartrain, either in Mudcat or on the Internet. Most search engines aren't smart enough to be flexible on matters of spelling.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:00 AM

In any US library today, if you want to find a book by W.B. Yeats, you will be directed to the British literature section of the collection. If you wish to study the literature written by and about W.B. Yeats, one of Ireland's Nobel winners for literature, or Synge or Behan, you will most take classes in British literature to do so.

Most English people still refer to the island of Ireland as part of the "British Isles".

None of this is accurate or correct. I see people making those sorts of mistakes all the time, without people making snide comments, or becoming argumentative about it.

Wouldn't it just be best, and least confrontational, to gently point out the error of a person's ways? I mean heck, the original poster of this thread didn't make any of the mistakes in his post asking for the lyrics that he stood accused of by Greg--Greg was the ignorant one in this instance. Yet, he is the one being defended here. Why is that?

Why was the automatic assumption made by Greg and apparently Malcolm, that Jimmy C didn't know what the hell he was talking about, and was an ignorant stooge of some nebulous Irish/Celtic conspiracy against the English and the Scots that only a certain segment of the British folk scene seems able to see?

I agree with you An Pluiméir Ceolmhar, the sorts of remarks made by Greg and Malcolm are often seen as inflammatory--because those remarks ARE inflammatory. Jimmy C was slapped down by Greg the minute he posted, when Greg suggested he was guilty by association with the Irish/Celtic conspiracy that only Englishmen seem to be able to suss out of posts like his.

So, considering how rude and wrong Mr. Stephens was to begin with, perhaps he needs to apologise for starting this whole sorry affair to begin with. That strikes me as much more appropriate than suggesting that SeanN and Declan are the guilty parties here for being overly sensitive to such ignorant remarks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 02:23 PM

troll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Zorro
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 03:21 PM

I have a video titled Irish Music in America narrated by Emmy Lou Harris.. On it there is a clip of a band called the Hot House Follies??? singing this song. It wasn't complete but seemed to be the same one posted by A,P, Ceolmhar above. She said the song traveled back and forth between the U.S. and Ireland and one version was popular during our civil war. She said it is also know as You're Welcome Here Kind Stranger. There are several songs with the same melody including Lilly of the West by Joan Baez and as someone mentioned, the one recorded by the Chieftains. I have no idea of the origin. But it's one of my favorites. It's not uncommon for folkies to take a really great melody and write their own words. Patriot's Game is another example. Bob Dylan's With God on Our Side has the same basic melody. Z.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 05:20 PM

Zorro, the name of the band is Hothouse Flowers, and Liam O Maonlai is the Irish singer in that band who is often credited with bringing the song to the attention of other Irish artists, rightly or wrongly.

I know of no one in the music community in Ireland who has ever claimed that the song was Irish. Rather, it is believed to be an American song, which evokes and appeals to a certain sort of Irish poetic sensibility. In other words, a lot of Irish singers have responded to it as a great song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:55 PM

The Irish influence in Louisiana (and the music thereof) can be found at the River of Sound website here:

http://www.pbs.org/riverofsong/music/e4-new.html

To understand why it is seriously plausible that the song was originally written by an Irish American, see this website with a pictorial history of the New Basin Canal, built to connect New Orleans to Lake Pontchartrain in the early 1830s by Irish immigrants, who settled in the area.

http://schools.bigchalk.com/members/lakeshorelinks/subpage/newbasincanal

FWIW, I'm a Mississippi River folkie who first heard the song titled as "My Creole Girl".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Declan
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 06:01 AM

In my first post on this thread I wrongly accused greg stephens of showing anti-irish sentiments in a lot of his posts. There are some people around here who do that, but having looked through some of his earlier posts, I definitely have to say that greg is not guilty on that score, hence my earlier apology.

As far as I can see, the whole row here started because of a misunderstanding. In Ireland, when speaking English, we refer to our native language as Irish and not Gaelic. In common parlance Gaelic is a type of football.

So when Malcolm Douglas asks why Jimmy C didn't ask for a Gaelic version of the lyrics, the answer is that that is precisely what he did ask for.

This song is obviously American in its origin. There is some speculation that the author may have been an Irishman in America. Nobody is claiming this to be an Irish song. And if anybody thinks that because there are words in Gaelic that this constitutes an original version of the song, they will be wrong to think that. This does not mean that people shouldn't translate the song into gaelic (Irish).

Lots of people are wrong about lots of things a lot of the time, and there's never any shortage of people around here to correct them if they make a mistake.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 08:11 AM

I was making a general point rather than referring specifically to Jimmy's question (or even to this particular discussion), but evidently I was not clear enough. Just goes to show how easy it is to misunderstand each other, and why we all need to remember that what we think is self-evident may not be so to others!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

Wow! Been away for a few days, and the controversy continues!

Some of the remarks about the English "claiming" Irish accomplishments reminds me of something I heard Richard Harris say in an interview. When he won an Academy award, the papers said "British Actor wins Oscar." When he was arrested in a bar fight, it was "Irish Actor Caught in Drunken Brawl."

Seriously, I agree that this thread contains many misunderstandings. Good thing it also contains a lot of information on the song, including the Irish (language) lyrics!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 03:41 PM

Lenny Bruce and Dick Gregory, two American social critics, were also stand-up comics---comedians. Whenever the press had to write articles on or even just mention their serious work for many good causes (Gregory ran for Mayor against the first Richard J. Daley in Chicago), they ALWAYS put the adjective COMEDIAN before their names. Comedian Dick Gregory or Comedian Lenny Bruce became, automatically, a buffoon in the minds of the people who read the stuff.

Somehow, this seems pertinent to some of the posts here in this thread. We all are influenced by each other musically and otherwise. That's how it's always been and that is also how it ought to be. Then, we see each other more like "people" than like the impersonal brunt of political and/or ethnic monsters reduced to stereotypes for various reasons and agendas by those we want to see as enemies.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Abby Sale
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:26 PM

Warning: extreme thread drift. But every time I see remarks about this song I just remember that if you and your spouse each have a BMW 250 and you're on your honeymoon and you go out on Lake Ponchartrain Bridge, you find that it's long and flat enough for even a BMW 250 to turn the tun. If you've lent one to a Hell's Angel & friend and you two are riding the other, it's even more fun at how surprised the Angel becomes.

I just wanted to mention that. It was a Good day.

OK. Sorry. Back to the hissing & biting.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Jimmy C
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 02:21 PM

been away for a day or two. Declan, you are correct (again). I requested the Irish (Gaelic) words to the song and NOT the words to an Irish song. Maybe I could have been a little clearer. Personally I don't give a dead rat's ass where the song originated, I'm just happy that we have it to enjoy. In any language !.

Slan

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Brakn
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:15 PM

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Brakn
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:17 PM

A thread I read from start to finish! That's new! Great stuff!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 May 09 - 04:55 AM

I've been running back and forth all over the internet...and this forum trying to find these lyrics in Irish...each link I click brings me back to the english ones,lol. Could someone please give me a definitive link to the Irish Language lyrics, if you have them? If so, Go raibh maith agat!:)

---

Click for Irish "Lakes"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:49 AM

There is an Irish version in this thread - read through it.

What do you mean by "definitive"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:33 AM

Guest

Declan posted a translation into Gaeilge on this thread in June 2002. Just check the list of postings at the top of the thread and click on the relevant one.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:05 PM

Visitors often seem to have trouble finding things when they're in the same thread where they're posting. I'm not sure why, but it happens often enough that I've learned not to blame the visitor. But I haven't been able to figure out the visitor's perception, so I don't know why it's sometimes hard for them to find things here.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

---

Click for Irish "Lakes of Ponchartrain"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Irish Hippy
Date: 18 May 10 - 02:35 PM

I'm pretty sure that "British Isles" is a geographical term that pertains to the landmasses of the island of Ireland and the island of Great Britain, and not a geo-political term describing the soverign nations themselves. For instance, you often hear the term "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which suggests that the landmass containing Scotland, England and Wales is called Great Britain, and the geo-political entity known as the UK is that landmass plus the section of the island of Ireland called Northen Ireland.
Remember that the term "Britain" predates the UK by many centuries, and probably originates with the people who were known as the "Britons" who came and occupied parts of the island of Great Britain way back when, before the modern nation states existed and when both the islands (GB and Ireland) were in fact divided into dozens of sub-kingdoms. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the French Brittany and the term "breton" are also all wound up together in historical relationships, though I could be wrong there, just saying it wouldn't surprise me.
What I'm getting at is that I don't think its racist or oppresive to refer to the combined geographical entity of the two islands (GB and Ireland) as the British Isles if this is in fact their correct geographical label, as long as it's understood that refering to them in this way is not equivalent to describing the Republic of Ireland as part of Great Britain (which even Northern Ireland is not) or as part of the United Kingdom (which Northern Ireland is universally recognised as being a part of). It's just geography, and I don't find the term British offensive or oppresive when used in this context to refer to the island of Ireland (not exclusively but including the island of GB too). This is from the point of view of a citizen of the Republic who is proud to be no subject of a monarch, a governmental system which I personally find highly objectionable, and who is proud to be a participent in a free democracy.

If I have any of this wrong, please correct me.

Hippy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 May 10 - 03:05 PM

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Including Scotland and Wales) and the country of Eire comprise The British Isles.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 19 May 10 - 08:57 AM

Thanks for the clarification Leadfingers...now, where do the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man fit into the picture....?
D

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 10 - 09:24 AM

its an American song,so why not sing it in French as well as Irish.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 May 10 - 09:27 AM

Channel Islands and Isle of Man are also part of the United Kingdom

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 10 - 09:39 AM

is there vesion in the Manx language?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 10 - 10:37 AM

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Including Scotland and Wales) and the country of Eire comprise The British Isles."

"Channel Islands and Isle of Man are also part of the United Kingdom"

Neither quote is strictly true - the Isle of Man is part of the British Isles, but not part of the United Kingdom. It's political status is "Crown Dependency". Same goes for the Channel Isles, except that they aren't part of the British Isles either. I see that the Wikipedia entry on Crown Dependencies has that wrong.
..................

Weird thread which I've just read through for old times sake. A classical example of of how the mildest thing can set off a barney.

I loved that line by Declan "Lots of people are wrong about lots of things a lot of the time, and there's never any shortage of people around here to correct them if they make a mistake." So I thought I'd prove him right.