Help: singing in German

Subject: Help: singing in German
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:21 PM

Hello all. I've found a couple of Pennsylvania Dutch folksongs that I want to sing. Is there anyone who knows German who could give me some insight into pronunciation? I know that W is pronounced like V in English; are there other rules of thumb I should know about?

I'll put the lyrics to the two songs here, so if you see a word that an ignorant Anglo is probably going to get wrong, please tell me how to say it.

Thanks a lot, Marion

Wann ich heiraten du

Zway Uxen, zway Esel, un en grumbuckliche Kuh
Des gebt mir mei Vatter wann ich heiraten du.
Par Hinkel un en Hawna, des dutter er dazu.
Des gebt mir mei Vatter wann ich heiraten du.

Schlof, Bobbeli, schlof

Schlof, Bobbeli, schlof!
Der Dadi hiet die schof.
Die Mammi hiet die kleine Kieh,
In dem Wisse, kiehl un grie.
Schlof, Bobbeli, schlof.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:37 PM

This is fun! I spoke a German dialect while growing up, so although my German is severely limited, this is enough like that I can understand most of it. (This song, by the way, I am assuming is Yiddish, rather than German) I'm sure someone will come along who can translate all of it.

When I Marry You

Two oxen, two donkeys and a crook-backed cow
Will be given to me by my father when I marry you
A hen and a rooster (in addition will he give)
Will be given to me by my father when I marry you

Sleep, baby, sleep
Your grandfather tends the sheep
Your grandmother tends the little calves
In the ??
Sleep, baby, sleep.

Very rough results of trying a phonetic translation:

Tsvei, uhxen, tsvei, asel oon en grrrrroombookle koo
Dess gaybt mia my fotter vann ich hireawten doo
Pah hinkle oon en hawna dess dooter er dawtsu
Dess gaybt mia my fottah vann ich hireawten doo

Go easy on me, folks! Haven't tried this before.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:52 PM

It's Pennsylvanian Dutch, Ebbie, which is actually close to Yiddish sometimes, so you are on the money--the pronunciation is another thing, though, and even in the Dutch Country, the pronunciations (and even the language itself)varies from one group to another--best advice for you, Marion, is to go back to the source and listen to how they pronounced it-

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:01 PM

Yeah if this is German, it's really bad German. For instance, German for "when I marry you" would be "Wann ich heirate dich."

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: GUEST,Eric
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:05 PM

Have you tried PalTalk? It's a program for free that you can download and "talk" over you computer to the rest of the world with, you just need a mic. They have several rooms that are for European Languages, and if you ask nicely I bet you could find someone to help you. Give it a shot! Mudcat also has a "snug" where you can hear others play and sing. Good Luck

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:23 PM

"In dem Wisse, kiehl und grie" = in the meadow, cool and green.

Michael

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Jeanie
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 04:19 PM

"Wann ich heiraten du" - I think the "du" here does not denote "you", but rather a shortened version of "tue", without the final "e" i.e. ich tue heiraten - slang/dialect for "I get married". (t and d are frequently interchangeable in dialect/pronunciation and in the historical development of German).

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 04:54 PM

I think "When I marry you" is "Wenn ich dich heirate", in Hoch Deutsch. You use the "Wann" form only when you are asking a question and the "Wenn" (which can also be translated as "if") automatically sends the active verb to the end of the clause. (I think). Where's Wolfgang when we need him? However, this is all irrelevant. Other 'Catters have quite rightly identified this as dialect. When you consider that you can be speaking any one of a dozen diferent dialects within a mile's drive of Cologne, anything could apply. It looks like Yiddish influenced Platt to me, but as we already know it came from Dutch settlers in the US, it's a rare old hybrid anyway. I think our guest is right.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 04:59 PM

The Pennsylvania Dutch are NOT Dutch. It's a manglization of "Deutsch." They are from Germany. (Don't ask me which part!)

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: DonMeixner
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 05:07 PM

This was titled Help: Singing in German. This presupposes it is possible to sing in German, the least melodic language in Europe after Finnish. Ofcourse my Dad's singing in German when I was growing up may have colored my opinion some. And there are those one or two operas about Wingheaded Fat Womyn and Rings and such.

"Ich had einen cameraden...." Thats all I recall from Mr. Hanely, 3rd grade music teacher and cheap suit salesman.

Or maybe I need to hear some good German singing. Any reccommends?

Don

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 05:11 PM

"Verheiraten" on the Cabaret movie soundtrack.

German makes a great language for novelty songs. I have several in mp3 form on the hard drive at home, including a few by Frank Zander (including the perfect "Oh Susie") and some by Udo Lindenberg.

It's hard to imagine wooing a woman by singing in German though, I'll grant. Perhaps that's why yodeling is essentially wordless? Or was yodeling not used to woo?

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 05:18 PM

I think dialect sounds good as a singing language, but the formal structure of High German makes it a real beast for things like folk, jazz rock and roll etc. The Beatles tracks in German were unintentionally hilarious. (Lennon's Scouse accent finished them off). For more formal stuff, or "Kabarett", the very artificiality of it helps it to aquire an ironic edge. It's about horses for courses really.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 07:25 PM

When I first read this thread I hadn't yet read the Pennsylvania Dutch song one, so I wasn't thinking along those lines. It just occurred to me why the 'heiraten' language is so familiar to me: it is the language I grew up with!

Some of the words I have forgotten and if an Amish person speaks too fast for my ears I can't understand every word and since the dialect is not a written one I'm sometimes at a loss- but yes, it is the German dialect I knew as an Amish girl before I learned English.

"We" were taught that most of the Amish were originally from the Alsace, but I have noticed that we share a lot of pronunciations and words with Bavaria- does anyone know why that should be?

And yes- I agree that it's very bad German! But believe it or not, there are rules that govern it. For instance, one can not say, without great insult, that a human being eats like an animal ('fressen', rather than 'essen'), the articles are gender specific, etc.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 07:46 PM

Many Mennonites were Swiss and many Hessians settled in Pennsylvania after the Revolution.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 10:12 PM

Mousethief,

Many of the Pennsylvania Dutch will point out that there was no such thing as Germany when they came here--and, also that the first Mennonites came to Pennsylvania from Utrecht, which was Dutch last time I checked--

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:00 AM

If we just decide to sing it like modern, standard German in the interest of keeping the songs alive, then you would sing:

Tsvy Ooksen, tsvy Ay-zel, oon enn grum-boock-li[x]- eh Koo.

dess gaybe meer my Fahter vahn i[x] high-rah-ten doo.
Pahr Hinkel oon enn Hahn-a, dess dooter air dah-tsoo.
[repeat line 2)

Notes: Tsvyrhymes with try. [x] is German ch as in "Ich" it is like the ch in Scots "Loch" only closer to the front of the mouth.

The oo in Ooksen, dooter, oon and grumbookliche is the short oo as in our word book.

The oo in Koo, doo, and dah-tsoo is our long oo as in "moon."

Zway Uxen, zway Esel, un en grumbuckliche Kuh
Des gebt mir mei Vatter wann ich heiraten du.
Par Hinkel un en Hawna, des dutter er dazu.
Des gebt mir mei Vatter wann ich heiraten du.
-------------------


Schlof, Bobbeli, schlof

Schlof, Bobbeli, schlof!
Der Dadi hiet die schof.
Die Mammi hiet die kleine Kieh,
In dem Wisse, kiehl un grie.
Schlof, Bobbeli, schlof.

Schloaf, Bob-bell-ee, schloaf
dair Dah-dee heet dee schoaf
dee Mah-mee heet dee kleine Kee
in dame vis-seh, keel oon gree
(repeat line one)

One last thing. When speaking German, speak at the front of your mouth, as certain British people do. It makes the sound crisper. You might trill the r's. If you sing this and anyone tells you you are doing it wrong, just claim it came from a different community. For example, if the complainer is from Pennsylvania, say you learned it in Iowa.

If I skipped something in the song, and I probably did, let me know.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 02:25 PM

Thanks everyone.

Guest, I'm sure you're right when you say "best advice for you, Marion, is to go back to the source and listen to how they pronounced it", except that it's Saturday and I need to be able to sing these on Tuesday, and don't have any people or records to consult. And I'm not above faking it a little.

Mousethief, for what it's worth, the book I found translated the song as "When I Marry Do", not "When I Marry You."

I didn't know you were Amish, Ebbie. Are you still? I spent a year volunteering with Mennonite Central Committee (I'm Anglican myself) so I feel a little connected to you anabaptist type people.

Marion

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 03:11 PM

Ebbie, can you give us any pointers on the differences between Pennsylvania Dutch and Hochdeutsch pronunciation?

I'd also like some pointers on Yiddish pronunciation. Mrs. Lev kvetches that I sing Yiddish songs with a German accent....

I suppose most English-speaking people are familiar with television Hochdeutsch, and I guess I have to admit it isn't a very pretty-sounding way of speaking. Some of the dialects and regional accents sound even worse. Bavarian (Bayrisch) German sounds very harsh - but if you go just across the border into Salzburg in Austria, you can hear some of the most beautiful, melodic speech you could dream of.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:22 PM

Don and Alex - thanks very much for your complimentary words about my native language! Actually, you are right, German is not a language that lends itself readily to being sung. But it can be sung, and we've got some very nice songs. However, dialects often work much better because their sounds are often softer than standard German. The language of the first song above is not 'bad German'. It must have derived from a South German dialect ('Alemannisch' or 'Fraenkisch', I'd guess) and certainly hasn't got much to do with Yiddish. The song still exists in Germany, and the translation given is correct. I would spell it

Zwaa Ochsen, zwaa Esel un a bucklige Kuh
Des gibt mir mei Vader wann i heirade du.
Paar Hühnche un e Hahn, des dutt er dazu.
Des gibt mir mei Vader wann i heirade du.

It's difficult to convey the soft sounds of the dialect adequately, but Jeanie is right in thinking 'du' here stands for 'tu' - 'when I do marry'. By the same token, 'dutt' means 'tut' - an untranslatable construction. See Ebbie's translation.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Banjer
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:36 PM

I was 6 years old before I had to deal with English here in the states. My dad was an American serviceman at the 97th General Hospital in Franbkfurt-am-Main. I still remember and can read some German so I looked forward to an impending visit from some folks from Berlin. Boy what a difference...Berliners talk so fast it's a wonder THEY cna understand each other. I was used to the laid back slow speaking German dialect and they turned their Berliner dialect loose on me!!! We went back to English real schnell, glaube mir das!!

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 10:57 PM

Hey, Berlinerdeutsch is simple. All you do is say "dock" a lot and nod knowingly, and you sound like a native. If you really want to sound local, you say "der" instead of "er."
Oh, and if you want ot have "native" Berliner foods, try Ungarische Goulaschsuppe and Franzözische Zwiebelsuppe (Hungarian goulash soup and French Onion Soup).
-Joe Offer, who lived in Berlin 1972-73-

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Genie
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:59 PM

Alex, You said you found it "hard to imagine wooing a woman by singing in German... " All I can say is that Marlene Dietrich seemed to do a sehr gut job of wooing MEN auf Deutsch!

Genie

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:59 AM

I can't believe these ethnocentric remarks about German being ugly. All languages are ugly sometimes. They are all made by flopping or clicking the wet tissues of our mouths and throats. The thing to do is to minimize unpleasant sounds as much as possible while getting the meaning and feelings across.

I like singing in German, though I don't know too many songs. --------------- Marion - could you use my transliteration?

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 03:08 PM

No, Marion, I'm no longer Amish. I left home the first time when I was 17, and haven't been Amish since. However, I have hundreds- thousands?- of Amish relatives, living in Kansas, Ohio, Iowa, Indiana, Oklahoma, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Costa Rica... (As you may have noticed, a great many of them have huge families. Some of my first cousins have 12 or so children.) And of course, I also have a great many Mennonite relatives, not to mention people in the many different classifications among them.

Joe O, my brother and I in recent years have found that pronouncing hochdeutsch tends to be easier, maybe because it's a written language so that you can visualize the word. But we sometimes used the German word and gave it a twist. Instead of saying 'gelb' for yellow, for instance, we said 'gale'. (As leenia said above, the L is pronounced in the front of the mouth, not in the throat. In the dialect, almost all Ls are soft. I don't know that that's true in hochdeutsch.) We rolled our Rs but we inserted a lot of English words too into our speech, sometimes incorporating them into the language. For instance, we said 'grrrravy', and we said 'blackberrien' for blackberries. I just remembered that we said 'grumberrien' for potatoes which means we were saying 'crooked berries' instead of 'ground berries'. We didn't use the high German word for them, or for most food.

Our family, being western US originally (Oregon)from a small community, didn't use as many dialectical words as they did in Virginia when we lived there. For instance, we said 'anvil', not 'ambose' as they did. And I remember a man who said 'bockabuch' for 'pocketbook'; I found that hilarious the first time, thinking I had misunderstood him. And I told a new brother in law that I liked the name he had given his holstein cow: Maple, because with her dark legs I agreed that she looked as though she had waded in maple syrup. My sister informed me, sotto voce, that he had said 'Mabel'. Talk about gaffes.

Most of the language involved colloquial rather than dictionary forms but we did utilize the formal and the familiar forms of speech. Family and friends we addressed as 'du' and 'sie'; for older people and strangers we said 'der' and 'es'.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Banjer
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 06:34 PM

It is hard to why here in the states we can speak with almost anyone from any part of the country and understand them with no problem other than the occasional accent and Germany is such a small area and has so many different dialects that the northern Germans have troublr understanding their southern neighbors.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: toadfrog
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 07:51 PM

Whether languages are beautiful or poetic is a matter of taste. Spanish, at least as it is pronounced in Mexico, sounds a whole lot harsher, to me, than German. All the 'p's are pronounced 'b' as in "El Baso." Spanish sentiments tend to be pretty harsh, too.

My favorite poem is in German, and melodic:

Herr, es ist Zeit. Der Sommer war sehr gross.
Leg' deinen Shatten auf den Sonnenuhren,
und auf den Fluren lass' die Winde los ...

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:26 PM

I cannot quite believe that the difference between a North German and a Bavarian is much bigger than between a New Englander and a Texan!

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:13 PM

This discussion has certainly piqued my interest. Since I adore opera, the emotion and the melodies, and I'm not put off by languages I don't understand, I searched a little on the net for art songs or lieder. I know very little about them, except that Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Wagner, Liszt, Strauss...wrote many, so there must be something very beautiful about the German language and poetic, musical expression. In this link, [http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/ent/A0845923.html], I found the following statements:

The song literature of Western music embodies two broad classifications - folk song and art song.

The German romantic lieder of the 19th cent., in which the vocal line and the piano accompaniment are of equal musical significance, are considered to be among the finest of all art songs.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with art songs, but since so many wonderful composers wrote so many of them, there must be something there worth investigating.

*******disclaimer************

I'm not discussing "what is a folk song" or "what is an art song" or "what is a pretty language." Nor have I not read Marion's original post. I just thought this was an interesting idea.

********funny story**********

When I was teaching high school, we had a German exchange student (extrememly intelligent, extroverted, all around good sport) who was in one of the plays for drama class. He spent several months practicing how to say "Where were we" in the play!

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 08:28 AM

The standard German language is New High German, also spoken in Austria and the German parts of Switzerland and Belgium.
Pennsylvania Dutch is a conglomerate of Palatine and Hessian dialects, amalgamated with English, and cut off from the evolution of spoken standard German for more than a century.
From Luther's translation of the Bible on the language he spoke tended to become the standard literary language as it is used now.
Besides there are other German language families, as e.g. the Nether German, Frisian and so on. In the Alps they are talking Alemannic, Bavarian and so on.
My Grandfather told me: when he was a POW in WWI, they had Bavarians and Nether Germans in camp, both not speaking High German; so they had to confer in French.
For singin German dialect songs it is difficult to give advice; in the more remote areas of my home country the pronounciation differs very much from village to village, or valley to valley.
One can try to transcribe the pronounciation of a native speaker, and the next one will call it all wrong. To represent German pronounciation with English orthography seems a little bit hazardous to me, if you consider the different ways the vowels can be pronounced.
Best way: Find a native speaker and learn his Pronounciation by heart.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: GUEST,NicoleCastle
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 08:36 PM

Marion,

Have you tried looking through the Folkways catalog to see if they have any old Pennsylvania-Dutch recordings? It might help you get a feel for the dialect... because I don't think listening to German recordings will help nearly as much. To an English speaker, German is pretty easy if you just listen and ignore the spelling. The cadence and pronounciations are very similar.

Until, of course, you get into the southern dialects, where they've been picking up French words and pronounciations for a few hundred years, and French isn't even in the same linguistic family...

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 03:01 AM

Marion,

Again some remarks about the cradle song. Since it's Pennsylvania Dutch, I think we must recur to the Frankish dialects of the Rhine-Main area, viz. Palatine and Hessia. The os in schlof and schof must be pronounced long and closed, so one would prefer schloof and schoof.
The orthography used in the song shows that the writer knows High German; some letters are superflous for describing the sound.
Here the use of the -i ending for a diminutive sounds a little bit strange, instead a murmured indefinite short vowel is used (not unlike the Hebrew Shwa): so Bobbele, Dade, Mamme. Instead of Dade nowadays Babba (Papa) is preferred. But it also could be engl. Daddy. (Bobbele also is the local nickname for Boris Becker in his hometown.)
The article in the forms der and den, when not stressed in a deictic purpose, is reduced as much as possible to a de. In the 4th line the plural of "meadows" is used. High German: In den Wiesen, Frankish: In de Wisse<

Schlof, Bobbele, schlof!
De Daddy hiet die schof.
Die Mamma hiet die kleine Kieh,
In de Wisse, kiehl un grie.
Schlof, Bobbele, schlof.

Ebbie is on the right way with her translation, let me finish it:
Sleep, baby, sleep.
Daddy is tending the sheep.
Mommy is tending the little cows
in the meadows cool and green.
Sleep, baby, sleep.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 10:22 AM

Wilfried, the reason I translated them as grandfather and grandmother respectively is that in the Amish dialect, one's mother is 'die mum' or, as in my case, 'die mem'. Father is 'der dad (dat)' or 'der pop' or as we said it, 'der deddy'. Even among my cousins, our pronunciation was different. One cousin's family said 'daddy', in straight English.

Grandparents, on the other hand, were '(gross)dawdy' and '(gross)mummy'.

I pictured Granddaddy and Grandmom taking care of a small flock of sheep and the chickens as their contribution to the Amish extended family. Each generation does what it is capable of.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 04:30 AM

Ebbie - Thanks for the intersting insights into Amish country life and dialectology.
Albeit there are lots of variants of this cradle song in Germany, there are always father and mother mentioned, no grandparents. The father is mostly herding the sheep because of the rhyme - mother's task may vary. My most favourite version:

Schlaf, Kindlein, schlaf!
Sleep, baby, sleep!
Der Vater hüt't die Schaf'.
The father herds the sheep.
Die Mutter schüttelt's Bäumelein,
The mother shakes the little tree,
Fällt herab ein Träumelein.
Falls down a little dream.
Schlaf, Kindlein, schlaf!
Sleep, baby, sleep!

Sleep well
Wilfried

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 04:49 AM

Ebbie - Just forgot to mention: the word you use for potatoes is a typical expression of the Palatine dialect which I hear often when visiting friends on the left side of the Upper Rhine.
Grumbeere are no "crooked berries" (krumme Beeren), but "ground berries" (Grundbeeren). Here we find a typical case of assimilation; N before B,P is changed into M fore easier pronounciation (so in Spanish and Arabic, too).
You may try yourself what is more convenient: Say Grundbeere first and then Grumbeere.

Good appetite
Wilfried

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Marion
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 10:50 PM

Today I played the audition that I asked this question for, so it's time for a report back.

The audition went great, and the most interesting thing about it related to the German song I did (When I Marry Do). I actually forgot a couple of lines of German, so I just made up gibberish to fill in that space, and it worked great. The people listening seemed really impressed that I could sing in "German", and they said that they were pretty sure they'd have work for me this summer.

I learned something today, but I'm not sure what...

Marion

PS to Leeneia - yes, I did use your pronunciation tips (for the actual German part of my song), in fact they were just what I was looking for. Sorry, I should have singled you out in my thank you note above.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 02:30 PM

Congratulations, Marion!

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 03:22 PM

Good, good. I'm glad to hear the audition went well. And this thread has certainly tapped a lot of knowledge and memories among Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 May 18 - 01:21 PM

Only passing mention has been made of
Swiss-German which in the original has more than one spelling,
one spelling is Schwyzertütsch.

As noted in an earlier post,
some of the Anabaptists came from parts of Switzerland.

Entire song lyrics exist in Schwyzertütsch
and when written out they look REALLY strange,
but if you know how they sound, it has sense.

Subject: RE: Help: singing in German
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:50 PM

Back to the subject of the use of German for seduction....up above, Alex says, "It's hard to imagine wooing a woman by singing in German...."

I had one German teacher at the Defense Language Institute who had been an opera singer in Germany. She had the most beautiful way of speaking German. Every time she opened her mouth, I'd swoon.

Most of our other teachers were former Wehrmacht officers, who said the Russians were the "Feind" and the Americans the "Gegner" in World War II. Most were good teachers, but they never made me swoon.

-Joe-