Fiddling and Singing

Subject: Fiddling and Singing
From: Bruce
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 05:34 PM

I have been playing the fiddle for many years, but only in the last year or so have I tried to sing and accompany myself on fiddle. So far would describe the results as mixed -- sounds OK if I double the melody or do a very simple harmony, but starts to break down if I get to creative.

Any 'cat fiddlers sing and play at the same time? Got any tips for a novice? Do you keep the fiddle under your chin, or let it slide down to your shoulder? If you play harmony, do you write it out and learn from the music, or just develop it by ear?

I've heard Bruce Molsky do a number of tunes, and he sounds great ... are there others who sing and fiddle?

Thanks,

Bruce

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: weepiper
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 05:43 PM

Can't do it myself, but there's a guy I see at sessions who does it to great effect. He usually plays the fiddle in the crook of his arm rather than in normal under-chin position, so with the tailpin against his upper arm. He does a lot of double-stopping, accompanying slow songs. Very nice.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 05:49 PM

I'm not a fiddler, but I'm sure the on-the-shoulder style (or even further down the arm) has develeoped for singing with the fiddle - it would cramp your singing style horribly to have to hold it under your chin.

As far as other difficulties are concerned, if you are not used to singing and playing at once, or maybe not used to playing a instrument like a keyboard that naturally plays several music lines together, you are going to take a little while to get used to the idea, so don't worry if it's hard at first.

As for writing it out or playing by ear or whatever - any approach is legitimate, so do what works. I sometimes have to spend an incredible amount of time getting some bit of countermelody doing just the right thing, and I'll write it out if I have to. Other times (depends a lot on the tune) it comes easily.

You are likely to find it's best to work out an exact part rather than improvising - that way you the playing will become automatic and you can concentrate on the song. I'm sure guitarists (I'm not one) will confirm this.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From:
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 06:01 PM

One of the fellows in Tanglefoot sings while playing. He puts the fiddle on his chest, so he can move his jaw better.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Larkin
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 06:57 PM

Tom McConnville's the man for that malarky.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 07:28 PM

Lower positions are older than the under-the-chin arrangement, which is relatively recent. I do occasionally sing and play at the same time; like blsmith, I find doubling the melody easiest to begin with, with simple harmonies and counter-melodies developing as I get more used to the song. It seems to be best if the phrasing is kept quite loose, though, so that you're playing around what you're singing rather than just following it. Other people prefer rhythmic chordal accompaniments. Personally, I prefer to keep the fiddle loosely under my chin (I can hear it better that way, and can more easily keep the intonation close to my voice) but I think that more people prefer a lower hold.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:08 PM

Have had the pleasure of playing in a band for many years with Kate Barfield who to my ears is a great master(mistress?) of this art. She uses the under-the-chin hold, fairly loose when she is singing. She tends to play a chordal rhythmic(shuffle or whatever) accompaniment,and fills in gaps between lines melodically a lot ofthe time, as a blues guitarist would. On slower things she often plays the tune along with her singing, with drone notes filling out the sound.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 05:09 AM

I try not to fiddle (with anything) while I'm singing as it embarasses the audience !

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: English Jon
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 06:40 AM

Fiddle goes under your chin. That way you can play it in tune. Don't grip so hard with your chin, and you'll find you can sing o.k. Learn the song properly before you start.

EJ

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 07:33 AM

Robin (or is it Barry?) Dransfield sings & fiddles. He holds fiddle with his elbow, not his chin, when doing both.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: ciarili
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:27 PM

Eliza Carthy holds it resting sort of on her collarbone or more in the middle of her sternum, and she plays a lot of double stops. As a singer, I can tell you that you DON'T want to twist your head to the side as you sing. Do yourself a huge favour and leave your head free or you're going to do funny things to your neck & throat muscles. By the way, I doubt you're going to have any problem hearing your fiddle if you hold it a little low. After all, I don't see any guitar players drooping their heads over their instruments full time!

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 08:30 AM

JIm Eldon is another one for fiddling and singing and he holds the fiddle against his upper arm. I understand that this is the tradtional position for fiddles and was only replaced when the violin started to come in.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Bruce
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 05:58 PM

Thanks, folks, for the information and suggestions. I must have short arms, because I cannot find a comfortable way to let the fiddle drop down into the crook of my arm and still have control. Leaving it under the chin, but loose, seems to work best for me... I guess the next step is more practice.

In a PM I was told to look for the recordings of the English fiddler/singer Barry Dransfield, who performed with his brother Robin a few years back. I guess some of their old recordings have been digitally remastered and released on cassette and CD. And to check out Tom Gibney, from Princeton New Jersey, who performs with a group called Poor Old Horse.

If you know of any other examples of singers who accompany themselves on fiddle, I'm interested in hearing about them.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Dug
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 07:44 PM

I have been accompanying my singing on the fiddle for many years. I hold the fiddle in the crook of my arm or when standing tight against my chest. Tend only to play in unison but varying the rhythm on the fiddle and occasional double stopping. Playing harmony I find hard- I have to learn the part first- a bit like learning a choral part.

Doug Jenner

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 07:59 PM

Guitarists have frets, and therefore do not have to worry about intonation so long as they have a decent instrument and can tune it. Intonation on a fiddle is another matter, of course, and different people approach it in different ways. For myself, as an "ear" player, I feel more comfortable with the instrument close to my head, where I can best hear my voice, and a loose hold between chin (or, more accurately, jaw) and collarbone with the fiddle supported by the hand does not require any twisting to the side.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 09:36 PM

There's a woman round these parts - Joyce Anderson - who sings and plays some rather complicated fiddle bits at the same time. I can't sing and play simultaneousely except on very simple melodies. I can sing and play guitar with no problem.

What happens with the fiddle is it's like having two voices at once. When I sing, I constantly listen for pitch and adjust it. I do the same when playing fiddle. To have to listen to and fine-tune both of those things is way too complicated. I may very well be afraid I'd have pitch problems when I wouldn't. One of these days, I'l have to see if I can work a simple song out.

Another weird thing is I can hold conversations while playing fretted thingies - guitar, banjo. I CAN'T do that with fiddle. I have problems calling out a tune or even answering yes/no questions. I can nod, I can walk, dance, read things or think about sex, but I can't say "yes." I wonder if it's because it's the same function or part of my brain that's responsible for speech AND pitch, and it can only handle one thing at a time. Is it my speech center, and is it treating the music as words? Is it just me?

As far as where the fiddle goes, physically, I have no problem singing with it under my chin. The problem with that location is that it's too close to my head. I'm not entirely sure whether it's because it's too close to my voice or my ear, but when I move it farther away from my head, it gets easier to sing and play at the same time.

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: ciarili
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 10:39 PM

I suspect the difficulty in speaking and playing at the same time might have to do with the fact that the same area of the brain deals with fine motor control of the vocal apparatus AND the fingers. That's why us righties outnumber the lefties. Broca's area and all that - left hemisphere.

Malcolm I used to play the fiddle a long, long time ago, and I think the whole thing about hearing it may be a matter of getting used to hearing it coming from a different place. We're only talking a matter of inches. Now, I'm a wee bit deaf in my right ear, so who knows - maybe your hearing is a little low in the left and you in particular need to get it closer.

ciarili

Subject: RE: Fiddling and Singing
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jun 02 - 11:03 PM

Not so much a question of habit or hearing loss, I think, as of predisposition. Jeri's experience is very close indeed to mine, except that I find it easier to match (fine-tune, if you like) voice and fiddle when the two sound-sources are close together and I can feel them both in the same kind of way; as if, indeed, I had two separate but related, and simultaneous, voices. That's not to suggest that I'm any good at it, mind; I need a lot more practice!