Help: Amp and mike shopping

Subject: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Marion
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 04:51 PM

Hello all. I'm looking a bit for some gear, particularly an amp and mike, and am looking for your suggestions, either specific brands or general advice about what to look for. I have a thing coming up in about a month that I'll probably need my own sound stuff for, so I may not have all the time I'd like to research. I'll tell you what I expect to need from sound gear in the near future; but I also want to take into consideration what I'm likely to need in the future and whether something I use today could be part of a more complicated system or whether I would have to start fresh.

Amplifier:

I'm looking for something to use in performance, not as a monitor but as the extra volume for the audience to hear. I have a pickup and preamp on my guitar (Fishman "Prefix Plus" on a Taylor); the most likely scenario would be one voice plus the pickup-ed guitar, or the guitar with another instrument miked. So two channels would usually be enough - in the near future. I'm thinking in terms of small events; parties, coffeehouses, nursing homes, maybe outdoor parties.

One store I went to the staff told me that my basic choice was between an "acoustic amp" and a "small PA system". He said that the PA system would have more channels and more power, but the acoustic amp would have better sound quality, better EQ options, and be easier to carry. Is there an important difference as to how these two options are used? Are there any more relative pros and cons that I should know about?

Would you consider an acoustic amp powerful enough to play in a church basement? A school classroom? Outdoors at a picnic or small festival?

Also, if I get an acoustic amp (which I think more likely, because of the sound quality and portability), then what do I do when two channels isn't enough? How feasible is it to hook something else up to it to allow for another singer or a small band?

By the way, I have no intention of using an amp for busking, so battery power isn't important to me. But size and weight are definitely a factor, since I don't have a car.

Microphones:

I'd like a microphone to use for voice or fiddle in live performance. I've gotten the idea that there are different kinds of mikes for different purposes; recording, voice, high instrument, low instrument and so on. Is it reasonable to hope for one mike that will do a decent job at everything (as I'd probably want to use it to record in the future)? I've also gotten the idea that with the mikes that are good for singing, you have to keep your mouth very close to it, so maybe that wouldn't work well for a fiddle.

Oh, and one more thing... patch cords: are they all pretty much the same? Or do I need to decide what kind of patch cord I want too?

Merci beaucoup beacoup,

Marion

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 05:32 PM

Several folks I know, myself included, use a Fender Acoustisonic Jr. amp. It sounds good, has all the features I need, and doesn't cost a bundle. I use a separate PA for vocals, but have tried out singing through the second channel on the amp and wouldn't hesitate to use it for vocals in a pinch.

If I were a rich man, I'd prefer a California Blonde or its "little sister" the Strawberry Blonde". They are superb acoustic amps. I just don't play out enough to justify the extra expense.

For mikes, you just can't go wrong with a Shure SM-58 for vocals/fiddle and an SM-57 if you want or need to mike a guitar, banjo etc.

Happy Hunting/Shopping

Bruce

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: C-flat
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 05:38 PM

A very good accoustic amplifier is the German made A.E.R. They have several models but, from what you say, their "Compact 60" sounds ideal. I have tried one of these and it is the best sounding amp I've come across. It isn't loaded with features/effects, very portable and has a separate input for vocals.
Most amplifiers have a "line out" to connect into the house P.A. for bigger venues and you can use your amp as a monitor.
With regard to cost...In the U.K. they retail around £550.
Another good accoustic amp is the Polytone. Again, very portable, but possibly more expensive.

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: mooman
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 05:52 PM

I also like the AER amps that C-flat recommended, they give a very good sound which I prefer to the more vaunted Trace Elliott. The Marshall acoustic guitar amplifier also has a good reputation.

As for mikes, I'd second the SM58 (vocal) and SM57 (instrumental)suggestions. These are more or less the "industry standard" though of course you can pay much more.

Another possibility is a mini-PA system. I've seen some very nice examples giving up to 4 or 5 channels and about 200W wit a smaller overall size than a decent combo, one such example is made by Dynacord.

Best regards,

mooman

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: BlueSage
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 06:32 PM

Marion, what quality of sound are you looking to get out of your guitar? If you are looking for an "acoustic/electric" sound, and want to experiment with effects, then by all means get the acoustic amp. If you want a more "natural" guitar sound, you might choose to go with a small PA, mic the guitar, and forget the pickup.

I've tried pickups for years (fishman, baggs, b-bender, pickup the world, ect.) and have yet to find anything that sounds as good as a mic'd guitar. I've even gone the pickup/internal mic route ( fishman blender and rane ap-13 preamps) and found them lacking. This last year I removed all the pickups from my instruments and have been much happier with the results.

If you do decide to try the microphone method, make sure you purchase good mics. The afore mentioned 58's and 57's sound great but might be somewhat feedback prone. The AKG C1000S condenser (with the hypercardioid adaptor installed) will give much more gain before feedback. The AKGs are also "warmer" to my ears than most other condenser mics.

Most good vocal mics work well on both fiddle and voice, you just have to learn how far away from the mic to sing to balance the violin and voice. My present fiddler plays very loud and has to move in to sing. One of my previous fiddlers played with a soft touch and had to back out of the mic when she sang!

Good luck on your decision, hope all the various advise helps!

Mike

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 07:34 PM

Agree with Blue Sage on the AKG C1000 - great mic for the price, and will work better for recording than the old Shure standbys.

As for amps, check out Carvin's AG 100D acoustic amp (available only direct from them so you can't try it in a store, unless you're in Southern Cal, but they have e great return policy).

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: NicoleC
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 12:26 AM

A good cable is a good cable. There's no need to spend a fortune, but don't buy at the bottom of the heap either. On one hand, cable is cable, but a poorly manufactured cable is unreliable and'll give out on your just when it's important it doesn't.

A Shure SM-58 or -57 isn't the greatest mic in the world, but it's practically indestructable and completely reliable. If you end up picking up something on the higher end, keep your eyes open for a used or on sale Shure as a backup for practically anything.

The hypercardiod adapter on the C1000 would be very cool for live gigs, but you may need a lot more practice working the mic with fiddle AND singing. You do have to get closer with a hypercardiod, but it's usually worth the learning curve to avoid potential feedback when you are on your own. (Having the option could be a very NICE benefit to the C1000, and it'll transition into a studio well.)

BlueSage seems to have had the opposite experience with Shures and AKG's than I have... which brings me to my next point: Sweet talk your dealer big time and try to borrow or get a cheap rental rate on a few mics before buying one. (Then be a nice customer and buy from your dealer instead of price shopping on the internet.) Mics are very personal, and auditioning mics can be as crucial as playing an instrument before you buy it. All the tweaking, processing and EQ'ing in the world won't change the basic characteristics of a mic, and only gets you further away from the sound you really one: one that sounds like YOU.

You're right -- every mic has it's proper application. But a good vocal/string/guitar mic will work for almost everything you do. The AKG and the banjo may not play together well, but the SM-57 probably will. But if you start adding percussion or digeridos down the road, you'll need to add to your inventory :)

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Kaleea
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 01:49 AM

Marion, since I am such a geezer, I have had to get equipment which I can easily move around! I got a nifty pa system called the "Rogue Roller P A" which is a small amplifier with the mixer built in--thus a 4 channel pa and it ROLLS! It has a handle which comes up from the side, and a foo foo old woman like myself can easily move it around. I got 2 of em, & a set of mikes & stands --thus 8 channels in all--which allows me to have what I need for just me, and also what I need for the couple of bands I play in! Whether in a small room, or a lousy acoustics of a gymnasium, I get plenty of sound. Good Luck!

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: AKS
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 03:13 AM

Of mics; a choice would be the headset type of microphone. The (fem.) lead singer in our band uses an AKG C444 (89,- € at www.thomann.de, an AKG C 420 is 168,- €) and it works quite nicely for the fiddle she plays as well. I've made a Y-piece to feed the signal into two channels if different eqs needed, and the sound lad simply mutes one of them respectively. This arrangement also benefits in one micstand less on the stage.

AKS

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: UB Ed
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 08:27 AM

Marion, get a small PA. From this post and previous ones you've made regarding gear, that seems most helpful for what you're doing. Others may be able to verify this, but I believe you'd get superior separation in the channels from a PA as opposed to an amplifier. You don't want your instrument to step on your voice or vice versa.

And, please remember, you're buying gear and evolving as a musician. As you progress, you'll be selling old stuff and buying new. So get a nice small second hand PA and see how it does! Sell it when you're ready to move on!

Enjoy yourself and the best of luck to you!

Ed

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Fortunato
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 08:44 AM

Hi Marion. My advice is that the Shure 57 or 58 Betas perform a bit better, are just as durable and cost only slightly more. Acoustic amps are designed to amplify guitars. I would recommend a small PA. 8 Channels leaves you room for the future, 4 channels may be adequate. If you've got to carry it on the metro you must choose. As for pickups and mikes, I prefer, like DOC Watson, to use both the pickup and a mike. It just sounds better. But it's a nice-to-have and not totally necessary, for what you're doing either will fill the bill and it's nice to only carry one mike if you're walking. Good luck. Oh. Go to your local music emporium and try out the Shure 57 and 58 and compare each to the other and then the Betas. Oh. One more thing. You can buy a chord tester at your music store. It will verify before your gig that your chords are good; they are cheap and worth every penny. But carry a backup mike chord and guitar chord in your bag anyway. Cheers, Chance

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 09:43 AM

After a lot of debating, I got the Fender Passport 250 system and I'm well pleased with it. I've used it in some surprisingly large venues and it's done well - I've been complimented several times on the quality of the sound. On occasion it has proved to be much better than the house PA system that was available. It's a little heavy for me to lug around (53 lbs.) - it all fits into a suitcase-like package - but if I'm by myself I just carry the components separately It comes with two Fender mikes which are quite acceptable (I've tried it with some really good mikes and it sounds even better). It has four channels plus two stereo inputs which I've used successfully as extra channels (you have to do a bit of adjusting) - so six channels in all. I had a four piece band - vocals and instrumentals who used it and it sounded great. You get cables and everything too, and there's a handy little compartment in the back where all that extra stuff can be stored. The four piece band was the limit, though - you wouldn't be able to manage more than that. Also there aren't a lot of special effects - you can adjust the volume, bass, reverb, etc. but that's about it. However, if you're acoustic that's all you need. I got everything, including mike stands and speaker stands, which you'll need, for less than $1000. That might be a good option for you.

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: RichM
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 10:58 AM

It sounds like portability for you is a big factor in your decision. How are you going to travel with this rig?
If you are using public transit you'll need to pack everything on a single rolling cart that you can pull along easily.
A used shure sm58 or 57 will handle both vocals and instrument. I know there are better mics, but these are adequate, and inexpensive.

Probably your best choice for portability/sound is a single acoustic amp with two or more channels, like this one
Two of my musical friends use these, and they are happy with them

Peavey also makes a smaller one (16 pounds) but you'd have to try it to see if it has enough power for what you want it for....

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Fortunato
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 11:47 AM

I stand corrected. The Peavy listed above as specified ought to do the job very well. Good recommendation, Rich. Chance

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: caz2ufolk
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 01:32 PM

Marion I have a sure sm58 gives good quality sound and very durable. Like you, I'm looking for an amp and it's a toss up between a trace elliot TA 50 or an AER. Both give good sound and volume however. The Trace is a little cheaper however the AER is so small and light It's like carrying a handbag! Heads! Tails!

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: BlueSage
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 08:35 PM

Thought I'd better clarify my previous post.

NicoleCastle made a good point. I do not use my AKG C1000s on my vocals, I use it as an "instrument only" mic. I use a good dynamic mic for my voice as I'm not thrilled with the sound of condensers as vocal mics in "live" concert settings.

The C1000s is also not my favorite overall banjo mic but I still favor it in "live" settings because it is so feedback resistant. I love the tone of the Sm57 as banjo mic in the studio (because of it's limited high end) but it is too prone to feedback in "live" settings to be much use to me.

I guess the point is that a mic might not be of any use if you can't get it's volume up loud enough to compete with a pickup in a "live" setting. My AKG hypercardioid has given me enough volume to do this.

Just some thoughts......Mike

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 02:29 PM

Thanks for your help everybody. I'll respond more, and research these brand names, when I have more time (getting ready for a camping trip!).

Just want to add one thing - I have little to no interest in special effects that an amp can provide. I just want it to make me louder.

Marion

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Marion
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 12:18 AM

A few things I'd like clarification on regarding mikes:

1. I've found someone selling a used AKG C1000, but there seems to be some dissension on whether or not it would be suitable for both fiddle and voice. So I'd appreciate more comments on the AKG C1000. Also, I didn't quite understand this comment from NicoleCastle: "Having the option could be a very NICE benefit to the C1000"; what option are you talking about?

2. Almost everyone who has mentioned the Shure mikes has said "the 57 or 58". Which is better for fiddle and voice - the 57 or the 58? Or are you saying that there isn't one mike that will do both well?

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 01:27 AM

Marion,

With a hypercardiod adapter option, you have one mic that can act as either a hypercardiod mic (very small pickup pattern) or a cardiod mic (same pickup pattern, but large.) In noisy, feedback prone rooms, a hypercardiod is less likely to pick up background noise and is less likely to feed back. A cardiod mic sounds a bit better (all other things being equal, so you could take the adapter off for any studio recording.

BUT... you have to stay closer to a hypercardiod mic, and it's not as forgiving if you move around. It'd be even tougher to both sing and play fiddle into it, which is no easy task to begin with.

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: treewind
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 07:40 AM

"hypercardiod mic (very small pickup pattern) or a cardiod mic (same pickup pattern, but large.) "

Either you're confused or that wasn't very well expressed. The pickup patten of hypercardiod is narrower than cardiod. In practice this very roughly translates as:

• Cardiod: sensitive to the front and sides
• Hypercardioid: sensitive at the front only

Shure 57 vs 58: They use the same capsule inside but...

SM58 is designed as a vocals mic, with 'presence' boost making it a little brighter sounding, which is oftean a Good Thing for stage vocals, and a better pop shield.
SM57 designed as an instrument mic, with flatter response, more accurate sound.

They are both good mics and widely used. You have to try them on the particular voice and fiddle to know which is best for what.

Anahata.

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 09:26 AM

"Cardiod: sensitive to the front and sides Hypercardioid: sensitive at the front only"

Not true, precisely, but I think we are both trying to simplify what might be better expressed with a picture:

http://www.recordingwebsite.com/articles/microphones.html

(Scroll down to to the bottom. Not the best diagram out there, but just a quickie from a Google search.)

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Marion
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 05:33 PM

Maybe I wasn't clear about this - but I'm talking about alternating between fiddle and singing, not both at the same time.

Cheers, Marion

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 07:56 PM

I was at a good music store today and the guy recommended the SHS OM 450 microphone. He said that SHS is sort of a clone brand of Shure (the 450 being equivalent to Shure 57), but better and cheaper than Shure. Agree? Disagree?

Marion

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: UB Ed
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 11:05 AM

Marion, I'm not familiar with SHS OM. I do know that Shure has been around for many years, I assume the cost differential is not too big and I firmly believe you get what you pay for. So go with Shure.

One microphone only? Well, I'd go with a previous posts' advice and try a 58 and a 57 in the store and let your ear pick.

But, what are you going to run your microphone through? That's importaant as well.

Ed

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Marion
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 04:49 PM

Does anyone have any opinions on the Fender Passport 150 (PA system) or Yorkville AM50 (acoustic amp)?

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: C-flat
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 05:10 PM

Both of those are good products. Your not going to have a lot of headroom(powerwise) but I don't think your looking for something to raise the roof!:~)
Does the AM50 share some of the features that it's bigger brother, the AM100, has? (I'm thinking of reverb and graphics)

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 05:39 PM

Miking the instruments instead of using DI is all very well,but it does mean carrying another mike stand for each player,and mike stands are pigs to transport by hand.Also a DI means you can move around on stage without losing sound.The Fender outfits are great,not too bulky and a good sound,but limiting for more than a duo.There are some very good small mixers if you need to extend the band.I have a little folio jobbie,four channels plus two stereo which I use to extend the antique HH mixer amp.The mikes go through the folio,with a CD for the interval/background and the instruments go through the Amp.Works a treat for a trio or quartet.And SM 58s for vocals.

Subject: RE: Help: Amp and mike shopping
From: mooman
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 06:50 PM

Regarding the 57/58 question, I always mike up our fiddler with a 57 and vocals with a 58 and the 57 performs admirably through a compact six-channel mixer amp PA setup. For noisy gigs, I think DI is preferable to a miked intrument because of the difficulty in getting good equalization and to reduce feedback.

mooman