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Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies

Sorcha 24 Jul 02 - 11:24 AM
catspaw49 24 Jul 02 - 10:27 AM
artbrooks 24 Jul 02 - 07:48 AM
gnu 24 Jul 02 - 05:19 AM
Dani 23 Jul 02 - 04:48 PM
Big Mick 23 Jul 02 - 03:02 PM
catspaw49 23 Jul 02 - 02:48 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jul 02 - 01:57 PM
gnu 23 Jul 02 - 05:46 AM
SINSULL 22 Jul 02 - 04:59 PM
katlaughing 22 Jul 02 - 04:39 PM
catspaw49 22 Jul 02 - 03:09 PM
Big Mick 22 Jul 02 - 03:03 PM
catspaw49 22 Jul 02 - 03:01 PM
Big Mick 22 Jul 02 - 03:01 PM
Charley Noble 22 Jul 02 - 02:51 PM
GUEST 22 Jul 02 - 02:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jul 02 - 05:49 PM
Celtic Soul 21 Jul 02 - 09:57 AM
kendall 21 Jul 02 - 07:37 AM
gnu 21 Jul 02 - 06:37 AM
Dave Bryant 20 Jul 02 - 07:06 AM
gnu 20 Jul 02 - 06:36 AM
CarolC 19 Jul 02 - 08:24 PM
katlaughing 19 Jul 02 - 05:05 PM
open mike 19 Jul 02 - 04:02 PM
MMario 19 Jul 02 - 03:35 PM
Celtic Soul 19 Jul 02 - 03:15 PM
Celtic Soul 19 Jul 02 - 02:43 PM
Gareth 19 Jul 02 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,OPEN MIKE 19 Jul 02 - 01:24 PM
Don Firth 19 Jul 02 - 01:12 PM
MMario 19 Jul 02 - 12:01 PM
CarolC 19 Jul 02 - 11:55 AM
Bill D 19 Jul 02 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,BetaBoom 19 Jul 02 - 11:42 AM
dwditty 19 Jul 02 - 10:33 AM
wysiwyg 19 Jul 02 - 10:26 AM
GUEST 19 Jul 02 - 10:04 AM
Amos 19 Jul 02 - 10:04 AM
Big Mick 19 Jul 02 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,BetaBoom 19 Jul 02 - 09:53 AM
CapriUni 19 Jul 02 - 09:39 AM
Big Mick 19 Jul 02 - 09:37 AM
MMario 19 Jul 02 - 09:37 AM
Bill D 19 Jul 02 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,BetaBoom 19 Jul 02 - 09:25 AM
GUEST 19 Jul 02 - 09:17 AM
wysiwyg 19 Jul 02 - 08:52 AM
Polecat 19 Jul 02 - 06:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 11:24 AM

Go here to see a couple pics of our Summer Place--it's about the 5th pic down, past the folks. NO AC, but lots of bugs!


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 10:27 AM

LOL....Hey, if I had my way, I'd stay home! Karen grew up camping and her family had a trailer they took out every weekend. When I agreed to go the camping route I had a few things that I said I had to have......easy towing, set-up,takedown...and AC!!! So the opo-up with the air unit did the job and everyone is happy! Connie and Wayne use a 3-room tent and when we set up it's very nice that way, like our own little enclave.

We were at a state park that's pretty remote in the beautiful hills of eastern Ohio......but yes, it does have showers and toilets and all of that as well. We had a site that was very secluded at the end of the "holler" so you did have to plan your bathroom visits well in advance! Like Jaeger, Ol' Spaw likes his creature comforts!!! The place has EXCELLENT showers!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 07:48 AM

And here I thought I had reached the heights of decadence when I bought a new tent last year that's big enough to stand up and walk around in! To make it entirely complete, that is, camping the American way, Spaw should have had a laptop and a wireless modem. How about it, guy? That way, we won't have to be without your sage counsel for 10 days.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 05:19 AM

AC ? AC ??!! That's not camping. Camping in the summer is suppose to be hot, wet, buggy... hey, I'll bet there was running water and washrooms too... showers even ! Newspaper delivery... nah, couuldn't be ?

I was up in the backwoods of Kent County, NB, Canada the weekend before last. There were stouts (like a big horsefly but much more viscious) skeeters, deer flies, blue-ass flies, black flies, bite-em-no-see-ums (midgets that get through small mesh screens), and some others I've never seen before. And no trout due to low, warm water. Shoulda went to Ohio.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Dani
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 04:48 PM

Is it from want of trying that you have no dogs, Mick? 'Cause I know a beautiful golden retriever in need of a good home. Want me to tempt you more?

Dani


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 03:02 PM

I absofeckinglutely love those pics, Spaw. The one of Tris and Susy playing licky tongue is priceless!! I miss having dogs so much. I sure wish we could have hooked up for some tunes around that campfire with your family (I include Wayne and Connie in that, of course!!). Please send my regards and love to all.

Oh.........yeah.........the rest of youse layabouts send a check, please!!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 02:48 PM

Ten days is about the limit for me!!! We do have a pop-up camper that's air conditioned so things are easier. We were at a remote state park over in the hills of eastern Ohio where I grew up....a part of Ohio no one thinks about much. They have good facilities with swimming in the lake and an activity center with ball courts and the like. You feel pretty safe with the kids and we took blades,boards,and bikes, so all 4 were occupied most of time with that stuff or catching crawdads and salamanders or fishing for blue gill. We made several other outtings as well. Connie and Wayne have a tent they use and the site was like a little compound of sorts. All the meals were on an open wood fire or one of Karen's Dutch Oven specialties, so we ate like horses!!!! Here's a pic of me looking Fat, Dumb, and Stupid and another with Karen and Sissy stretched out in one wing of the camper. Bad pic, but you also might enjoy Tristan and Sissy playing Lickey-Tongue. And HERE is a reasonably legit pic of me and the dogs.

And SRS.....There was a laundromat at the Activity Center....but I'm still doing laundry today......gawd that smoke smell is pungent when you ain't there with it!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 01:57 PM

Here's another 'catter back from the Hinterland--in this case, NYC. ('Spaw, I've never done long trips with the kids--I wonder at the size of the pile of dirty laundry after a your trip?!) Anyway, every time I passed someone in Manhattan carrying a guitar I was tempted to stop and ask if they were someone I would recognize on this list. . .

I'll send my check this afternoon when I get home. Meant to before I left.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 05:46 AM

Ten days of camping ! I can handle summer camping maybe two days, as long as there's enough ale to ply an edge through the whole affair. Were you tenting ? Did you hit the woods or the campgrounds ?


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 04:59 PM

Spaw! Thank you! It just wouldn't have been as effective coming from me.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 04:39 PM

I second that, Spaw, about yer being back...it was a long spell!

Pretty hard to get ripped off when something is free, huh?


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:09 PM

Great to be back!! The camping was fun, but 10 days is a long time.....Connie, Wayne, our kids, their kids, three dogs.......and still we had a great time!!! I'd have gotten more rest at home though........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:03 PM

Great to have you back, Spaw.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:01 PM

Gawd what a troll.....I love it!

Listen Dipshit, if Max provided a certified account record and promised to kiss your sorry ass on Times Square at high noon, you still wouldn't kick in one red cent, so here's a fuckoff right back atcha'! Now let's quit mentally jacking each other off huh?.......geeziz........LOL....

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 03:01 PM

First off, don't presume you are a friend. No one knows who you are, so I am not prepared to acknowledge you as friend.

Second off, you try to create a rift and then when it doesn't work you tell folks to fuck off. Seems like it is getting to you that folks don't find what you have to say as valuable. It looks to me that the best tactic has been found to deal with F/T's and fundraising. Everytime one of you rants, we all commit to send money to keep this site going. Easy.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:51 PM

Well, I'll believe what I prefer to believe and to hell with the rest! $50 via Pay/Pal.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 02:23 PM

Right--if you think someone is ripping you and your friends off, don't tell your friends you suspect things aren't as they should be. Isn't that a sage piece of advice? NOT.

Friends DO tell each other if they think they are being ripped off. But to suggest otherwise is just more of the Mudcat magic, I guess. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil of Mudcat or Max--yeah, sure.

No one is infallible for christ sake, or as perfect as the guard dogs make Max out to be. You want to send money, fine. But don't get all up in people's faces for legitimately questioning in this forum, where the money they are sending to Max is going. That is just bullshit. Just because you don't want to know what Max is doing with the money, doesn't mean that everyone here who has ever sent a donation shares your views.

Don't feel that you need to expect Max to engage in the common courtesy of politeness when he receives money from us personally? You know, that simple two word phrase known as "thank you"--all you people who love to bitch about how rude guests here are? Well you know what? Some of us think Max DOES owe people a simple thank you for sending him money.

So fuck off yerselves.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 05:49 PM

First they piss in the water, and then they complain about it tasting like someone's pissed in it.

You know the old saying "It's better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness"? But how about those who get their kicks from cursing the fella who lights the candle?

I think the best comment on all this maybe comes from Midchuck on another thread who says what I suspect most people here are thinking: "If you think Max is ripping you off, don't send anything. But be quiet about it."


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 09:57 AM

As I am short on funds (excessively so...am having trouble making the bills this month) at the moment, I am still awaiting an answer as to whether parts would help (those we have).

:::Humming the theme to jeopardy again for the 2,157,298th time:::


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 07:37 AM

I'm more than getting my money's worth. What else is there? My contribution is in the mail.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jul 02 - 06:37 AM

Is (almost) everyone on summer vacation ? Apologies to those down under. C'mon guys, cough up some cash ! Not one pledge of support in the past 24h.... shameful !


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 07:06 AM

Max, Perhaps you really need a backup server as well and definitely some safe way of backing up yor disks. Are you using or planning to use RAID disks ? - that could also decrease the chances of data loss.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 06:36 AM

Tsk tsk tsk. Still feeding the trolls ! I am dangerously close to reducing my donation by a T-shirt !

CC... not much danger of that fantastic print going at the present price. If I didn't have a copy already, I'd bid toot sweet.

And everyone should check out Kendall's book, too. It's a hoot.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 08:24 PM

Well, now I know for sure it was a good idea for MMario (or anyone other than me) to handle my auction items. I posted a note with a small detail to the bidding thread for the fox and, not realizing that the bids are entered automatically, I ended up bidding on my own item.

I hope someone will come to my rescue and outbid me. Fortunately, I only bumped the bidding up by one dollar.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 05:05 PM

Gareth, well done and thanks!


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: open mike
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 04:02 PM

on the "friends of mudcat " thread the auction items are seen in the right hand margin--check them out.. add yours?


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 03:35 PM

A week ago we almost lost an entire server farm when the air conditioning in the room blew. Most of the machines were down for several days - our e-mail server was on during the days ONLY (with a huge fan pumping air past it)


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 03:15 PM

OH! And do you know what exactly went bad on Matilda? Given that it is unlikely that several major components of the PC went down, it is possible that much of it is still salvagable. Would some components help until a complete system is feasible?

We recently built a PC for my honey to learn Linux on. We bought the case, power supply, motherboard, CPU (one GHz duron), and 256 megs of RAM for under $250.00 (more RAM can be obtained for not too much more money). All we had to supply from our own spare parts was the CD drive, hard drive, floppy, and misc. nick nacks (like keyboard, mouse, cables, etc.). Even if you want a 120 Gb hard drive and need to get it from a retail place like BestBuy, you can get that for $250.00 as well (which is available cheaper elsewhere). $800.00 to $900.00 may not be what is necessary to get you where you want to be.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 02:43 PM

What OS are you running, Max?


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 02:30 PM

AARRRRRGH ! Yet another spat

To assist I sugest that those who are interested read the webpages (-just put up)which give the background etc. And hopefully some facts and figures on what financial support and objectives are in mind. BLUE CLICKY THING

Those who are more interested in Flaming, Trolling and generally Pissing about are invited to ignore them.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: GUEST,OPEN MIKE
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 01:24 PM

LET'S KEEP THIS THREAD ON THE TOP SO THAT PEOPLE WILL KNOW-LET'S PITCH IN TO KEEP THE CAFE' OPEN- IF WE ARE HERE, WE MUST ENJOY THE LIST, SO LEAVE A TIP TO HELP OUT! I AM PAY PAL-LING A DONATION. HOPE IT GETS THRU O.K. THIS MAY EXPLAIN WHY A POST I SENT IN RESPONSE TO THE SPOONERISM THREAD NEVER APPEARED IN THE FORUM--LOST IN TEH ETHERS? POOF! LAUREL


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 01:12 PM

Anytime Mudcat has a problem, the carp start to carp and the sharks start to circle. The fact that a resource such as Mudcat exists at all is bloody miraculous, and fortunately most folks realize that.

Illegitimi non carborundum, Max (don't let the bastards grind you down). The check is in the mail. And thank you!!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 12:01 PM

If I had drawn those beauties I wouldn't want to give them up!


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:55 AM

MMario has graciously and kindly agreed to handle the wildlife artwork that I had in mind to contribute to the auction, because I'm such a wuss about that sort of thing.

He has informed me that one of the illustrations, the fox, I believe, is up and ready for bidding. Personally, I'm a little nervous about having my babies up for auction, but it's for a good cause.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:45 AM

six years of a huge FREE database and links to neat people all over the world..whom I have gotten to know personally... and 2 years of radio/TV program and one of the most creative and amazing chat forums anywhere....(where else could I buy an Amish-American mustasche tuner? and debate Irish politics at the same time!)

ummm...abuse me some MORE, Max!...I can take it!


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: GUEST,BetaBoom
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 11:42 AM

I have used a name dwditty--BetaBoom. And yes, I am a Walmart shopper, how did you know? Did you purchase Marvelous Max's Internet Spyware (tm)?


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: dwditty
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:33 AM

"Sure this is a community. One really sick, dysfunctional community, led by Max and the guard dogs."

Well, Guest, whatever this community is you are part of it by your presence here, despite your name or lack thereof.

Welcome..

dw

btw, would you happen to be a Walmart shopper?


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:26 AM

NEXT time Max needs a financial response, let's not handle it in a thread like this. Let's have a moderated thread that stays on topic, and place it elsewhere if necessary to do that. Maybe we need a "Friends of Mudcat" discussion group over in MSN communities. PM me if you think it's a good idea.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:04 AM

Big Mick,

What help would you prescibe for us, poor twisted souls that we are?


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:04 AM

Max doesn't hate anonymous guests, Betaboom. He hates poeple who carp, whine, cavil, dodge, manipulate, taunt, upset, confuse, and pee in the soup, while using the anonymous guest log in to do so from a relatively hidden, covert, underhanded, irresponsible, protected position.

These are a minority.

A


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:03 AM

BB, read my post earlier. But I must dispute something you just posted, and it makes me suspicious that you are just another F/T.

It is pretty obvious that Max wants to abuse anonymous posters, and wants the members to abuse them too. If that is how some of you wish to spend your time, that's fine. But don't expect that others will consider it a positive thing. It is really quite negative, isn't it? It results in all this rancor and ill-will the website is now famous for in the online folk community

Two things wrong with this statement, and they negate any legitimacy that your post had. First, it is predicated on the idea that Max/Mudcat members want to abuse anons and that is the source of the rancor and ill will. That is the type of logic that paints anons as sick and perverted. They create the rancor and when it comes back they say "see, this place is bad". Shallow tactic and easily seen through. The second statement indicates this website is famous for ill will in the online folks community. That is what is known as a gratuitous assertion. It can be just as gratuitously denied.

Your motives are clear. I won't debate it anymore with you.

C'mon Mudcatters, step up and let's get this server purchased.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: GUEST,BetaBoom
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:53 AM

Big Mick, I believe your "they" (ie anon guests) is a bit too monolithic to be real.

Do you really think that all the people who have posted anonymously to this forum over the years constitutes so few people? Some of you are really irrational and paranoid when it comes to anonymous users of this site. But none is more paranoid and irrational, or harbors more hatred for anonymous users, than the site owner himself, as his posts keep making quite clear.

It is pretty obvious that Max wants to abuse anonymous posters, and wants the members to abuse them too. If that is how some of you wish to spend your time, that's fine. But don't expect that others will consider it a positive thing. It is really quite negative, isn't it? It results in all this rancor and ill-will the website is now famous for in the online folk community. And it does beg the question, if Max hates anonymous guests so much, why doesn't he eliminate them from the forum? I don't want to know why Max has this manipulative 12 year old hacker mentality thing going, which he so obviously relishes.

Sure this is a community. One really sick, dysfunctional community, led by Max and the guard dogs.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:39 AM

Hey, I'd bid on a set of handmade windchimes! Put 'em up!!


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:37 AM

Do you see how their poor little minds work? First they reap havoc and bait people, in other words they play mind games, and when that is turned on them they complain. Twisted folks, and they need help. I pity you.

Now...........let's ignore them.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:37 AM

well *I* think it was and *is* funny!


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:35 AM

Nobody wasted MY time..*grin*....I read what I want. sorry your sense of humor was shot off in the Crimean War.....

besides, I had PM from Max explaining the joke....if you were nicer, and used your name, YOU might be part of the inner clique, too..you should SEE my platinum lifetime membership care with the secret decoder strip embossed on it...wow!..(I have #27!)


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: GUEST,BetaBoom
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:25 AM

Apparently the site owner has an endless amount of leisure time to devote to playing sophmoric mind games with the Mudcat membership.

Too bad he can't put any of that energy towards being a bit more balanced a human being. Any site owner who is messing with the their website users to this extent has some serious character defects. I'd say pull the plug, but the people who surround these sorts of people will just become refugees, and likely find their way into the better online music forums, and I for one don't want to see that happen.

Donate to Mudcat now to keep the looneys in this bin, rather than inflicting them on the rest of the online folk community.

Please.


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 09:17 AM

Thanks for the reply, Max

So the Windows 98 thread was a joke?

I can hear the peals of laughter resounding around the globe.

Given that you think:

Anyone worth a shit would have known it was a preposterous concept to begin with

do you not consider:

Big Mick, Jerry Rasmussen, JohnInKansas, Bill D, Joe Offer, MMario, George Seto, etc. etc

worth a shit? Because I do

Thank you so much for wasting their time. It was such a funny joke


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 08:52 AM

Polecat, the auction is self-service, meaning that you can go ahead and enter the item yourself and manage what happens past that point. Just click the link at the top of the page to get to the screens that do the job. Drop me a PM if you have trouble geting it in, and I'll give you a hand.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Matilda is Dead-Another MudComputer Dies
From: Polecat
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 06:29 AM

Hi Max; I dunno exactly how this thing works and I'll probably spend the rest of my life trying to figure the darned thing out...

If you want to raise a few dollars,I am more than willing to donate some hand made wind chimes for you to maybe put at auction?

If this is an idea you can take hold of,please drop me a note and I'll send off a few sets for a fundraiser to cover some of the cost...

They retail here in Canada for 70.00 so,you might be able to grab a few dollars to help the Cat...

My email..gasprices@hotmail.com


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