Objectionable Sequel II

Subject: Objectionable Sequel II
From: Chet W.
Date: 11 May 98 - 05:12 PM

I wasn't sure if we were just getting silly (speaking for myself) or if people were still interested, so I'm starting a new thread. I thought maybe since we agreed and disagreed and persuaded and failed to persuade, now we could see if one of our favorite forces, music, could be used to solve or clarify some of the issues we raised. As I said, I do play all kinds of music (except for the obvious) for my students on the boombox every day, between classes and quietly while they are doing written assignments. What else? Midnight singing? Providing examples of real political speech (eg-Woody Guthrie, etc.)? It's a tricky prospect. Would love to hear ideas.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Objectionable Sequel II
From: steve t
Date: 11 May 98 - 06:02 PM

It got silly cause we needed a break.

I don't like the idea of mandatory singing at all. Midnight singing as a special privilege sounds great to me, but then again, I'm unusual that way.

What's the cirriculum like? Life skills or what everyone should know who wants to go to higher education?

I think politics would be boring for those who can't see a use for it -- how to organize protests, how to deal with city hall, how to ask for grants for projects, how to get the media's attention, how to get free legal advice, how to deal with official harassment, what results can be gained, etc. If you want to work in recent history, do it at the same time you're discussing these ideas.

About respect -- your students use the word correctly, even if they only use one of its meanings.

Subject: RE: Objectionable Sequel II
From: chet w
Date: 11 May 98 - 08:15 PM

Maybe it's one of my little quirks, but I personally do not aspire to the kind of respect you get because you have a big gun in your hand (the same way people say "you have to give rattlesnakes some respect"). The kind I want, for myself and for my students, is where people have faith that you will consistently do the right thing, even if it's difficult. Mandatory singing I never mentioned; I was half-seriously alluding to the successful midnight basketball programs that have been started in many cities. Politics may indeed be often boring, but those who choose to ignore it do so at the cost of having somebody else (those who do get involved or at least go to the trouble to vote - about 30% in South Carolina) make all the rules that will affect everybody. You're right, we did and do need a break.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Objectionable Sequel II
From: Pete M
Date: 11 May 98 - 08:49 PM

I can see how you arrived at your comment Steve, but thats not the way I read the etymology. Defering to some one out of respect is not the same as not upsetting them for fear of reprisals, at least not in my book (nor I think in the OED). I hestitate to make any suggestions Chet since you have obviously given this a lot more thought than those of us not immediately involved. What about using the songs of other minorities or powerless groups that have campaigned against the status quo. Perhaps use these as an introduction to the methods they used and why those methods succeeded or failed? I suppose my initial reaction would be to try and get them to see that they are not the only persecuted group around. But I suspect you will have an uphill job, youth I suspect, has never seen the views of anyone over twenty as relevant, and I also suspect that being persecuted or at least the perception of being persecuted, is a powerful group identifier (after all its built into the job description of the Irish - (grin)) so there may be unconcious resistence to alleviating the problem. Best of luck anyway, and at least in Part 3 of this thread we can be constructive rather than critical.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Objectionable Sequel II
From: Jon W.
Date: 12 May 98 - 10:40 AM

With the caveat that I have little or no practical experience in these matters, here is my opinion on what needs to be done to prevent the recurring cycle of gang violence. It seems to me that being a gang member is a lot like being an addict--they are addicted to a culture (well, subculture, really) rather than a specific substance. Just as an addict needs first detoxification and thereafter complete abstinence from the addictive substance, which will usually entail a radical change of lifestyle, so a "recovering" gang member needs the same. Detox would be to get out of the gang and out of the reach of the gang. Complete abstinence would be to stay out of the gang, out of the reach of the gang, and to abandon all the trappings of the gang lifestyle (including the gangsta rap, clothing fashions, etc.) The radical change of lifestyle would include everything from education or job training to new taste in music (that's where we come in) to tattoo removal to psychological/spiritual counseling. Which brings me to a point best illustrated by (at the risk of returning to silliness) this joke: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the light bulb has to really want to change.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: Objectionable Sequel II
From: steve t
Date: 13 May 98 - 03:06 AM

Well gee, of course I know what respect means. I guess I made my comment because, until then, I'd forgotten that the "fear" meaning is ALSO valid, probably older, and usually learned earlier. Ever remember "respect your elders"? It sure wasn't just young blacks men who first used respect to mean "be polite to that person OR ELSE."

I'm sort of wondering about ways to convince people that self-respect is more important than immediate peer acceptance or approval. Occasionally, it isn't. I'm not really sure I'll think of anything. If anyone wants to bounce any ideas off me, perhaps e-mail is better than this forum -- it's easier to quote other people in e-mail. I'm at: [e-mail]. We could CC: copies to everyone who wanted to listen in.

Subject: RE: Objectionable Sequel II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 98 - 03:12 AM

Or, you could keep the discussion going right here, Steve. I think there a lot of us who are reading this thread with interest, even though we may not be posting. I can't see how continuing here does anybody any harm.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Objectionable Sequel II
From: Pete M
Date: 13 May 98 - 04:36 PM

Steve, I certainly didn't mean to imply that you did not know the meaning of the word "respect". After more time to reflect, you are of course correct, and I also use "respect" to mean "concern about the consequences if you don't acknowledge power". As I normally use this meaning with reference to natural phenomena: the sea, weather conditions, snow conditions etc, I didn't make the connection with the "gangsta" usage. Mea cula, mea culpa.

I think your comments about self respect, Jon W's, Chets' and my own comments are all heading in the same direction, although coming from different starting points. From my own point of view, Chets' inmates and their peers will never break out of their cycle unless a} they want to, and b) break out of the mind trap they are currently in. Unfortunately, as Chet has pointed out, their current modus vivendi has high and immediate payoffs - flash cars, clothes and "respect" of their peers (and death of course - but who considers that when you are young and immortal?) whereas the class struggle for the community as a whole is long, hard and has no guarantee of success, or benefits for those who suffer along the way. Sorry to be so depressing - must be a virtual Monday!

Pete M