Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 07:49 PM

If anyone would like to hear my version, go to: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=954289

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 07:56 PM

This was an off the wall recording with some of my friends. If I could, I'd do it over, better, but alas, you can't imagine how it grieves me to know I will never sing again.

Tom Rowe bass
Greg Boardman viola

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 08:19 PM

Interesting post, Dave.

Anything is possible, but Harper's was and is a very well edited magazine, so I'd assume that "Behrynge" is how he wanted it spelled.

Possibly to serve as a pseudonym.

I've checked several very large American newspaper and magazine databases without turning up further mention of Francis or *any other* "Behrynge," except, curiously, for a character in a poem called "A Place in Heaven," by J. H. Starr, in the N.O. Daily Picayune, Jan. 16, 1888, p. 7. It begins,

"Behrynge, the pilgrim, lifting up his head,
Saw the death angel standing near his bed..."

Perhaps Starr was a fan of "Loving, but Unloved." Or perhaps J. H. Starr was in fact "Behrynge."

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,MarthaF
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 12:23 PM

I stumbled upon this very interesting discussion today, having woken up with a line from Joan Baez's version of this song in my head, and gone looking for more information.

I repeated your searches for "behrynge" and found - like you - nothing but references to this page in Harpers, the "Place in Heaven" poem, and this blog. Personally I am inclined to think it was a pseudonym.

However - didn't you ever wonder whether "Francis Behrynge" actually WROTE the "Loving but unloved" poem/song/text - or whether s/he merely wrote down a song that was current at that time?

The question of the melody and its origin still stands. To my ear this is an unusual melody for a folk song - and am I correct that it persists from version to version? (the only version I personally know being Joan's)

Things to think about!

Ancestry.com led me to some Francis Baring's - which could be alternately spelled "behrynge" - so I took this search to Wikipedia, where I discovered:
* a " German and British banking family, descended from Johann (John) Baring (1697–1748), a wool merchant of Bremen."

* "Francis Baring may refer to:

    Sir Francis Baring, 1st Baronet (1740–1810), English merchant banker.
    Francis Baring, 1st Baron Northbrook, (1796–1866)
    Francis Baring, 2nd Earl of Northbrook, (1850–1929)
    Francis Baring, 3rd Baron Ashburton (1800–1868), British peer and politician
    Francis Thomas Baring, 6th Baron Northbrook (born 1954), British peer and Conservative politician
    Francis Denzil Edward Baring, 5th Baron Ashburton"

Could the dead nobleman have been one of these??

There's a lot to think about here!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:18 PM

While the tune is effective, it is extremely simple and not very imaginative. There is considerable repetition. Somebody else may be able to say whether it has close traditional relatives.

But whether or not it does, my feeling is that it's so simple that almost anyone could have "composed" it, including May McCord (a musician).   I'd call it a "folk tune" or at least a "folklike tune" on that basis alone.

It's always easy ask without evidence whether a song was "really" written by somebody else. Maybe the acknowledged author took credit for a traditional song after making a few minor changes (if any); maybe he just stole it from an associate or a family member. The point is simply that without evidence those suspicions are literally groundless.

> Could the dead nobleman have been one of these??

Sure. But he could have been imaginary too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:22 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:30 AM

It's amazing how changing one word can alter the whole song.

The version I know says: There, in HER garden she stands, all dressed in white satin and lace, LADY MARY so proud and COLD...etc

Someone observed that this could be referring to the Virgin Mary, a statue.
Sounds far fetched to me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 12:30 PM

I agree, Kendall.

You have my sympathy on the loss of your singing voice. I know my own life would be much degraded if I couldn't sing anymore.

There's a link above to this song in the DT, with musical notation for the tune. I've been playing that tune, and it seems to me to have something of a slow air about it - in particular the use of very long, tied notes in some places and, in other places, surprisingly quick notes.

I wonder if that's the timing it had when Sandburg collected it back in 1930.

The range is from low A below the staff to high D on the staff. Not many singers can do that. It's rather pretty, and I'm going to mess with it a little and see how it sounds on a flute in D.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:54 AM

I love those sticky old songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 12:44 PM

This song has puzzled me since the '60's. Glad to find like-minded people.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 11:14 AM

I recently heard Barbara Dickson singing Palace Grand in concert and she has recorded it on an EP called Five Songs. What a lovely song which Barbara sings so beautifully, she has a lovely plaintive quality in her voice. So glad to have heard the aong

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 03 Jan 19 - 04:06 PM

Daniel Romano sings a version of this song titled “She was the world to me”. It touched me so deeply, it led me to research it’s origin, which led me to this thread. Check it out if you want, it’s a different arrangement but it’s so beautiful ??

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: MRyer
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 03:25 PM

Jim Dixon's post(above in this thread) of 21 Feb 2011 - 8:30PM, which lists a poem which was published in Harper's Magazine in 1871, and identifies it as a precursor to "The Palace Grand" / "Lady Mary" / "The Sad Song" is truly a remarkable thing for me and I suspect for others that love this song. (Thanks Jim Dixon)

I wanted to comment further that it is also remarkable to me that Jean Ritchie's post (also above)of 21 Jan 2003 - 7:49PM should quote the last two lines of May Kennedy McCord's song rendition as: "Will I still be nothing to him, Though he dims heaven for me?" and have them be almost identical to the last two lines of the Harper's Magazine 1871 poem.

Also, it seems to me that the 1871 poem puts the controversy about the number of females in the song in the court that favors 2 females.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:21 PM

This reminds me of a Cynthia Gooding song about a girl of low degree ah but she loved his lordship so tenderly... But the lordship ignores her and she does. Sad, sad song too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:37 PM

Dies. Not does, dies. Oops.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:02 PM

I suggested above (not entirely facetiously) that Starr might have been a fan of "Palace Grand," and there fore used the name "Behrynge" in his own poem.

But we can now rule that out. Starr's poem, "One Place in Heaven," appeared much earlier in the Emporia [Kansas] News, Dec. 2, 1870, p. 2, predating "Loving, but Unloved" by some months.

There ought to be some connection, however. The name "Behrynge" appears to be unique to these two poems. They appeared within months of each other. Starr's poem appeared in an eastern Kansas paper, and the "Palace Grand" song seems to have been traditional solely in neighboring Missouri.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:25 PM

'The language and the tune are both typical of the Victorian parlour ballad, as I've said; and I'm not backing down on that until someone proves me wrong!' Malcolm Douglas: 17 years ago to the month!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:46 AM

I have probably mentioned this before, but the late Peter Opie - he of 'The Lore and Language of School Children' - once said that anything that sounded old was probably modern, whereas anything that sounded modern was probably old. I'm with Steve on this one. It is Victorian, and certainly no older.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:09 PM

One explanation may be that "Francis Behrynge" was really J. F. Starr, whose local fame in southern Missouri and/or eastern Kansas led some people to memorize his or her song (or poem).

Perhaps it was set afloat by a broadside.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:53 PM

Palace Grand by Barbara Dickson, live.

With thanks to Guest,Mark of 09 Feb 17 - 11:14 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:26 PM

Palace Grand Singer Ginny Hawker from" Letters fro my Father"

and recent comment from Jordan McCord

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:26 PM

I always think of Kendall Morse when I hear this song. To me, it began with Kendall. I think he did the definitive recording of this song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Alfie
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 01:50 PM

Why does nobody ask how this poor chap has lost his life, and who might have been responsible? Is it so obvious that nobody feels the need to point it out?

This is a very beautiful song, but for me a large chunk of the beauty lies in the ambiguity: I suspect that she's done him in, but I can't be sure. Why should she a mourner be? After all, she's (probably) killed him. And why? Well, because (reversing the lines) he was the world to her but she was nothing to him. Is that not the whole point of this wonderful song? Again, if I'm just stating the obvious I apologise for the noise.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:36 AM

The Schneyer/Perdue version given by Joe Offer (06 Jan 08 - 01:39 AM) makes sense. The singer falls in love with the man, but he's involved with Lady Mary and he somehow dies. If Lady Mary can't get anywhere with him either (as in the Baez/Durham version) the lyrics make little sense and the song becomes confusing.

I think she's a prostitute who has fallen in love with a customer. Otherwise why mention a fee? The kiss is her fee, but why should she mention a fee at all, unless she normally charges?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,Phil L
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 08:19 AM

I don't see anything confusing in the song. The story is simply one of the unrequited love of a woman for a man who is in a loveless marriage. The fee is the price of love, measured in emotion not money. When he dies the woman asks herself - why should I mourn him when he ignored me all this time? and what will happen if we meet in heaven?

The words and tune are simple and should not be analysed to closely. It's beauty is in it's simplicity and how it feels is more important than it's structure.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lady Mary / Palace Grand / The Sad Song
From: GUEST,KenH
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 07:33 PM

He was passing by and stopped at a cottage, perhaps to rest his horse. She was a young girl resident at the cottage and fell deeply in love with him on sight. He didn't notice her. He went on and married a wealthy woman not capable of love. Loving him, she pitied his sad fate and hopes (uncertainly) that in paradise their potential happiness (where class doesn't matter) might be realised.