BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?

Subject: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 10:56 AM

Some of you are military, right? Have you been following this one... several wives of servicemen killed apparently right after the servicemen return from Afghanistan, and now a husband was just killed by the military wife? Something like 5 murders in 3 months, on base? What is the deal, here? Any songs about coming home from a military post and not being able to stand your spouse any more?

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM

I haven't been following the case, but will see what I can find on it.

There aren't any songs I know of, but it's a phenomenon that's fairly well known. (Although it doesn't typically end in murder.) A spouse that had certain jobs within the household goes away for long enough that the spouse left behind learns how to do them. They learn those responsibilities, but they also have autonomy. Spouse returns and tries to take up where he/she left off, spouse-at-home and kids can resent it. Spouse-that-went-away resents feeling like they aren't needed and sometimes don't even belong.

Sort of like Rosie the Rivetter being told to get back in the kitchen, you don't have to work anymore - and there may very well be a song about that.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 11:55 AM

There are links to most of the stories of the past six weeks at this addy. It's all been in just six weeks...strange.

We saw the phenomenon Jeri speaks of when we lived near Groton and the Sub base. So many women were left for six months, ran the household, made all major decisions, held jobs, sometimes had lovers, disciplined the kids, etc. everything a single parent would do, then all of a sudden, the other parent came home and wanted to take over. If the marriage wasn't strong on communication, etc. it often didn't survive, but I don't remember hearing about murders in all the time we were there.

My neice just spent a year alone with her son, at my sister's, while her Air Force husband was in Korea. It's the second time they've had a long time apart becasue of teh military. They seem to have things worked out well. It helps that he was able to come home, once in that year, for a month and that their son adores him, but also listens well to his mother.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 12:36 PM

Thanks, kat - will check out your link.

The same sort of thing happened after Desert Storm. I vaguely remember hearing of one murder on the news, but nothing that severe happened where I was stationed.

I suspect murder can become epidemic the way suicide can...

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM

http://www.militarywoman.org/domestic.htm Here is some statiscal information I've just gleaned from several military websites on domestic violence:

At least 2 million women are beaten by their partners each year.

As many as half of all female homicide victims are killed by their husband or boyfriend .

It is rare for male homicide victims to be killed by intimate partners. Only about three percent of such homicides are perpetrated by wives, ex- wives or girlfriends.

There is limited research that indicates that military families are more violent than civilian counterparts.

The studies used most often regarding domestic violence is the National Family Violence surveys (ie, they aren't specific to military populations, but statistics specific to the military has been separated out for comparison, as have other special populations).

Violence among military couples appears to be more severe. In a treatment sample of 180 military couples, both women and men (21% and 4%) required more medical attention than civilian couples (3% and 0.4%) in the previous mentioned national family violence survey (Cantos, et al., 1994). Similarly, in a shelter sample wives of soldiers sustained more severe violence and injuries than civilian wives.

Specifically, soldiers were twice as likely as civilian husbands to use weapons against their wives (Shupe, et al., 1987). Higher rates of violence were also reported in a clinical samples of 60 maritally distressed couples, with 23% of military wives being hit by husbands compared to 3% of their civilian counterparts (Griffin & Morgan, 1988).

Additionally, students from military backgrounds reported higher rates of parental spousal violence, such as slapping, hair pulling, throwing objects, and pushing than students from civilian backgrounds (Cronin, 1995).

No studies could be located that linked increased levels of violence to deployment and reunions.

The acceptance of violence, male dominance, and hierarchal structure, characteristics commonly associated with the military environment, have been theoretically linked to increased rates of wife assaults (Jensen, et al., 1986). One study found no significant differences between abusive and nonabusive military husbands on measures of traditional attitudes toward women, authoritarianism, and dogmatism (Neidig, et al., 1986).

However, when 60 abusive soldiers were demographically matched on age, education, length of marriage, and military rank, with a comparison group of maritally distressed nonviolent soldiers, significant differences on these traits did emerge. Batterers exhibited more type A behavior, characterized by competition, aggressiveness, hostility and traditional attitudes toward women (Hurlbert, et al., 1991). Powerlessness and the need to control were also frequently reported by a sample of 36 veterans enrolled in a 6-month outpatient partner violence treatment program (Petrik, et al., 1994b).

Although some researchers argue that the military environment fosters these traditional beliefs, others contend that authoritarian, violent prone men select the military life style (Shupe, et al., 1987). This debate cannot be resolved based on the available evidence. Nevertheless, there appears to be a connection between these traits and partner violence in the military.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 12:58 PM

I forgot to add that while the military lifestyle does appear to exacerbate the tendency to use violence against intimates and family members, the main cause of domestic violence among all populations still seems to be a history of domestic violence in the home during childhood.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 02:45 PM

Maybe it has nothing what-so-ever to do with the fact that the guys just returned from the war. Isn't that possible? Not every tragedy can be classified as a conspiracy of some sort. Time will tell as those guys go on trial.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 02:58 PM

DougR,

Authorities exploring the possibility that PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) was a factor in these murders isn't exactly what I'd call a "conspiracy" (your word).

Only two of "these guys" will go on trial. Two of them committed suicide after murdering their wives. I'd say it would be criminal negligence NOT to look at the ways the Ft Bragg domestic violence/counseling system is working in the wake of these tragic deaths. How else can we learn to prevent such tragedies in the future for military families, without taking a hard look at what happened here?

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 04:20 PM

GUEST: I agree it should be looked into. From all reports I have read, though, the battles in Afghanstan fought by U. S. troops were no where near as intense as those fought in Vietnam. Agreed, a battle of any kind is intense, but my point is I don't recall similar happenings when service people returned from Vietnam.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 07:42 PM

Here is a link to a story today from ABC News:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA020801Fort_bragg_families.html

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 08:03 PM

I am given to understand that Bragg is one of more difficult postings in the US. Wish Mbo/Matt_R was around....he lives near there and is a Corps brat. He probably knows all the gossip.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 09:31 PM

PTSD! Man, we get these folks all hyped up to kill folks and then some of them actaully have to do it or at least try to do it and they're pur in stressfull, tramatic situations and then they come home and the military doesn't do anything to help them adjust. There no major couseling until they have messed up their lives and those around them. Then it's too late.

And their wives are stuck in military bases with men with way too much testesterone running around every day keeping each other on edge, because an edgy army type killing machine is always ready for deployment. Yeah, these women are trapped in a boarderline insane asylum with a bunch of crazed stressed out guys living on the edge... Hmmmmmmm? And we wonder why this is happening?

Beam my boney Wes Gunny butt up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 02 - 11:40 PM

There is limited research that indicates that military families are more violent than civilian counterparts.

Gee -- I wonder if that could have anything to do with the fasct that they are trained to maim, destroy, explode, cut, blast, throttle burn, bomb and shoot and snuff out human beings' bodies? And honored in the doing of it? And then thrown into circumstances where their hopes for any future at all require them to exercise those talents as fast as possible in gruesome ways under exhausting conditions? Could any of this have an effect on the individuals whose highest ambition is to be a Master of War?

I dunno--maybe it's just a far-fetched theory, huh?


A

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Aug 02 - 12:02 AM

Nah, Amos, that couldn't possibly be it. You must have a real wild hair up...........(grin).

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 02 - 09:03 AM

Bobert, Ft Bragg is an Army Special Forces & Airborne base which has been linked to some pretty heinous crimes in the past decade, so the problem of violence with soldiers stationed or formerly stationed there, is not a new one.

There was the hate crime murders of a black couple in Fayettevillle by three white soldiers associated with the National Alliance Party in the mid-90s.

There are the claims of widespread human rights abuses by Mexican police and army authorities who trained at Ft Bragg (which was also true of police and army trainees from El Salvador, Guatemala, etc in the 1980s--much higher incidences of human rights abuses among those who had trained at the so-called "elite" bases in the US, but particularly Ft Bragg).

Then there is the former U.S. Army sergeant indicted for conspiracy in connection with the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania last August was arraigned Thursday, who was formerly stationed at Ft Bragg.

So there are some who believe there is a culture of extremist violence that is associated with the "elite forces" training itself. When people who have been given the free accessibility to guns and deadly weapons that military and police authorities have, even AFTER being found guilty of domestic violence charges, you have a situation ripe for this sort of thing.

BTW, there has been a lot of lobbying by gun control and domestic violence advocates to enforce a federal law that prohibits those in the military and law enforcement who have a history of committing/threatening to commit violent criminal acts, from carrying weapons. Of course, this would require that they either continue to serve in their jobs in a capacity which doesn't allow the perpetrators to be armed, or that they be discharged, so there have been some pretty extreme measures taken by both the military and law enforcement agencies to tiptoe around this law.

In the case of the most recent Ft Bragg murders, the spokesman for the base said he had never heard of such a law.

As to the murders themselves, in the case of the woman being stabbed to death in front of her children (whom she told to run to the neighbors) and her house set on fire, the couple had separated (she had only been living in the trailer for a week) and she had filed for divorce. In the case of a Ft Bragg soldier murdering his wife at a mall in Ft Bragg back in January, he had a long history of domestic violence, and was in fact out on bail at the time he stabbed her death. So any claims that military authorities "didn't see this coming" are ludicrous, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 02 - 09:12 AM

Oops--wish I could edit the above! The paragraph about the former Army sargeant charged in connection with the bombing of the embassies--he wasn't indicted last Thursday, and of course the embassy bombings didn't happen last August, but in August 1998. The US government claimed he had ties to Al Qaida & bin Laden (and this was before 9/11).

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM

The wife wasn't the soldier, the dead husband was, turns out, sorry. She tried to blame it on a mythical intruder at first.

There is also a very intersting article in today's Washington Post (sorry, forgot to copy the link) about how the military frowns on seeking psychological help, and how that mentality may be contributing to whatever is going on there.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Aug 02 - 10:07 AM

Well, I started working away from home in 1997, living in digs for four nights and going home at weekends. When we finally got rid of the kids we bought a house down here in January this year and Sue moved down to be with me every day. Let me tell you, it can be hell on earth! We're so used to being apart, or just being together and doing nothing, that it's very hard to adjust, however much we love each other. I think we've got past the stage where one of us is likely to murder the other--I think we're just too civilised for that--but we can both understand how it could happen. For people who've been seriouslyseparated, as Kat describes, it must be so easy for the smallest little thing to boil over into something out of a Stephen King novel.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: folk1234
Date: 02 Aug 02 - 06:46 PM

The spouses left at home during military deployments, during either peacetime or wartime, are by far the most heroic members of the military community. It is they who raise the kids, handle household crises, and must at all times be prepared to hear devastating news from the sensation-driven news media.

In twenty years of Marine Corps service I rarely was home when a household appliance or a car broke down, when a child was sick or injured, or when house-hunting began for our next post. Even when I was "at home", long, irregular hours, coupled with many 2-day to 4-week training events and emergencies (hurricanes, riots, floods) made my wife and children feel abandoned. Nevertheless, my wife, more than I, missed the camaraderie of the Marine community when we returned to the real world back in 1980.
Regarding rigorous training for exposure to and survival in a violent environment, and the actual experience of same - healthy and well adjusted people can handle it. Thousands return from 'the valley of death' and become normal everyday people.
What happended at Ft Bragg is truly a tradegy, but neither we nor our elected officials should overreact.
Semper fi to the real heros

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 02 Aug 02 - 08:21 PM

You know, I'm a little sick and tired of everybody and their mother being declared "heros".

I don't buy that a military spouse, who really is no different than a civilian single parent, should be considered heroic. I doubt we should even consider them saints. As to the difficulties of readjusting as a couple after a lengthy separation, I would agree that healthy, well adjusted people don't have that much of a problem with it. Those people aren't prone to murder and violence though, even in trying circumstances. Those who are prone to the violence we are witnessing at Ft Bragg don't fall into that category, though.

I've endured some lengthy (I'm guessing a full year counts as lengthy) separations from my partner, and just haven't had to undergo what seems to the relationship equivalent of the bends upon surfacing as a couple again. To me, the benefits of being back together always outweighed the being apart. Of course, having a relationship where neither partner is invested in control and domination over the other sure helps. Balanced, equitable relationships seems to be the best cure to this sort of violence, IMO. And young people can be educated to view the world that way. The problem with the military is that they aren't interested in that sort of dynamic in relationships--it doesn't fit with the military male dominant, authoritarian, hierarchal model.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Aug 02 - 10:34 PM

Ahh, the Control Issue. Always there in the military.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: folk1234
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:11 AM

The 'control and dominance' found in the military is necessary for peak performance under trying conditions. It is no different than the C&D we expect on the flight deck of a commercial airliner, the bridge of an oil tanker, the operating room of a hospital, and the construction site of a building. Without such C&D, there would be chaos and resulting carnage.
One person, male or female, must be in control. This person is not evil because of her/his control of others. Rather, this person has achieved a respected professional position of leadership, and, most importantly, has accepted the accountability of his/her decisions.
WRT to the military, thank goodness it is male-dominated. I don't think we are willing to accept many females in bodybags. Actually males, per se, are not dominant, they simply outnumber their female colleagues, especially in the combat arms. Those fine ladies who have chosen to serve carry their full load.
None of the above justifies or rationalizes the murders at Ft Bragg. The soldiers involved committed a brutal crime and should be treated like others in our military or civilian system of justice.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 11:32 AM

Control and dominance is also required to get otherwise peaceful people to go out and kill other peaceful people in large numbers. Killing human beings isn't something that comes naturally to us.

"Peak performance" of killing machines--also known as armies, all of which are doing VERY well in the carnage department in the 20th & now 21st centuries. Unprecedented carnage. Probably because our armies have gotten SO GOOD at the control and dominance required for peak performance in the carnage game.

Guess what, folk1234--not all of us are living a reality where ONLY ONE PERSON IS IN CONTROL. Many of us have been living in communities that are the antithesis of male dominated hierarchical models are whole adult lives, and doing very well at it, thank you very much. We haven't killed anyone doing it either. And not only that, we truly believe that if we could get the armies killing and slaughtering innocents around the world on a regular basis to stop their carnage, people living in other countries would actually like us, and wouldn't try and kill us anymore.

But we need our armies to defend the Kenneth Lays and Dick Cheney's of this world, don't we? Otherwise we'd just be freezing in the dark, eating bread and water.

As to the "we aren't willing to accept many females in bodybags"--I would say "Sure we are! We've already been burying females and their children and their elders in mass graves for well over a century!" And doing it really, really well--like in Bosnia, El Salvador, and now of course, Afghanistan. We just keep getting better and better at it! Must be the "peak performance" killing machine thing, don't you agree?

(To the tune of "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off!"):

You say body bag, I say mass grave! Body Bag--Mass Grave, let's call the whole thing off!

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: NH Dave
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 05:57 PM

I think family violence, like alcoholism, has been a very real way of life within many of the military services, until such a time as it was identified and a decision was made not to tolerate or at least buy into it any more.

When I was in the Army in the early 60's we all knew of the senior sergeants who could not get through the morning without at least one drink, and many of these folks were abusers as well. I left the Army after one tour and joined the AF, where I remained until I retired, but I saw the same situations extant there, until the medical and social service folks began putting the brakes on the situation. Family Violence would not be tolerated at any Air Force Base, under any condition. Period! Those who ran afoul of this policy soon found themselves involved in involuntary counseling, and if the situation didn't improve, involuntary separation. Additionally, the club system which allowed a service person to drink into insensibility every night after work, to the detriment of the family and their financial situation, soon faced curbs limiting the times and the duration of the time during which cut-rate drinks could be served to its members. This didn't serve as an instantaneous cure for the problems, but did begin to bring it under control, and as far as I know, after being retired for nearly 16 years, family violence, excessive drinking, and fiscal irresponsibility have been greatly curtailed.

OK, so this was the AF, and we were discussing the Army, specifically the Airborne Army and the Special Forces folks, stationed at Ft. Bragg.

Airborne is a group unto itself, even in this day of Star Wars infantry. These are folks who have been schooled from their entry into the military with the idea of jumping out of perfectly functional aircraft, and starting a limited war from wherever they happen to land. I say limited, because there is only so much they can do with the amount of arms and munitions one person can carry into battle on his back, even when parachuted in to the battle zone. These folks and to a lesser extent the Rangers, another group with additional training in existence under deprivation, are firm believers in, "Hey diddle diddle, right up the middle!" frontal assaults on enemy held objectives. This was clearly expressed by Col. Donald Hackworth, a retired Infantry officer from the Viet Nam era, and an outspoken military columnist and military consultant.

The Special Forces, on the other hand are given all this training, but then impressed with the fact that they are too valuable to waste in Light Brigade charges into the cannons, but serve to train and lead vastly larger numbers of local troops to take the objective by subversive means rather than frontal charges,

These folks, like people from SEAL teams, face increases pressure as they live with their counterpart local troops, far from the comforts of even barracks or base life, truing these brave but often inept military into better fighting forces. They serve in groups of 5-10 men, way forward of most friendly support, molding their advised unit into a more effective fighting force, often with improvised arms and equipment.

These folks have to feel tremendous responsibilities and a terrible isolation that can only be eased when they return to a fixed base or come home. Whatever psychological strain people from each of these groups finds themselves facing, they perceive themselves unable to break out of their situations, since in most cases, seeking counseling for psychological problems is tantamount to admitting that they can no longer cope with the responsibilities of their work, and is a career stopper at best.

My experience while living next door to Ft. Bragg, was that the Airborne folks had been told for so long that they were the meanest folks on earth, that they had become dedicated to this belief, and felt that they had to make sure everyone with whom they came into contact knew and appreciated this fact. The SF folks, on the other hand, were the nicest folks you could ever want to meet. Super trained in at least 2-3 specialties, plus at least one additional language and set of local customs, they had a quiet pride and self confidence that comes from knowing that they could accomplish taskings in a manner that no other force could do. They didn't have to prove their mettle each night in bars, or in personal relationships; they were good and everyone knew it. But bring them back from long months, spent in primitive conditions, under unreasonable stress, and they tend to seem frayed about the edges, and frequently their family lives show it.

As to the comment that a military wife's lot is little different from any other single parent's life; this does not take into consideration the stress of having a loved one deployed half way around the word, facing unknown dangers, with a good possibility that he may never return, and she and her family will be forced out of the military housing they currently occupy, with nothing but six months of her husband's pay, and the proceeds from the government insurance policy provided serving members. Nor does it take into account the very real possibility of him being returned an invalid, unable to continue to enjoy the active lifestyle he has known for all of his adult life, forceably medically retired and dependent on the limited retired and medical benefits provided by a "grateful county" for the rest of his life.

Perhaps the wonder should not be that 10-15 serving men have suffered such unfortunate violent incidents, but that so few, under these circumstances, have done so.

Dave
SGT, USA, Beat Feet
MSGT, USAF, Ret.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Aug 02 - 06:28 PM

I also have considerable direct experience with these issues in my work since many of my clients are active military personnel.

One must factor in the stresses of low income and poverty level income for many military families, a lack of higher education, and the lack of extended family supports evident in nomadic military family life.

All these dependent variables need to be considered when trying to understand family violence in the military, in addition to the stress of combat and combat training, and the fact that military wives often become quite independent and then are reluctant to take a back seat in family decision making.

And GUEST, we never say 'such and such' "causes" 'such and such', in behavioral science. We speak of correlation not causality.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 03:21 AM

Surprising that Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald hasn't come up......Fort Bragg, murder, etc.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 10:10 AM

Thanks for correcting me on the "correlation vs causality" terminology. I'm not a behavioral scientist, so I'm not familiary with the terminology used specifically for mental health. But I think us lay folk are looking for the causes of these murders nonetheless, so something can be done to prevent them from happening again.

I can appreciate that the military families face a *different* set of stressors because of their circumstances. But my point wasn't that there is a better/worse scenario for the military wives and civilian single parents--just that they are different. Many single parents have a set of stressors every bit as difficult to deal with as the set of stressors faced by military wives. One isn't worse than the other, just different, especially when you look at the statistics regarding women and children in single parent homes and poverty, lack of education and job training, no family support system, and the transiency that comes along with that poverty.

Not all single parents face this dire of an example of course. But one extreme example of extraordinary stressors faced by some of them is living in the epicenter of drug and violent crime infested neighborhood. That is a situation every bit as stressful as that faced by military wives. Then there are the stressors that come with having chronic and/or debilitating illness, injury and disability. There are so many hard things in life that humans are dealing with, that I don't think it fair to say that military families have it so much worse than the rest of us. I have empathy for them like I do all people who have difficult life circumstances.

But come on now, let's be honest. The folks in the military also have many things that are positives in their lives. There are those of us who actually prefer a nomadic lifestyle, especially because we get to experience different cultures, etc along with the moves. There is a community of support that exists for some military wives--each other. I know more than a few military wives who have made lifelong friendships with women they came to know while in the military. And then there are education and training opportunities that aren't there for civilians. Health care--my sister had a son born with severe club foot while her husband was in the military. You would never know it by looking at him now. He received excellent medical care that they never would have been able to afford had they been in civilian life at the time of his birth.

So let's not paint military life as totally horrid here. In actuality, it can be a damn site better than the circumstances many people face in civilian life. There ARE privleges given to military families tht civilian families don't get. One of those is access to excellent health care that SHOULD be doing much more to change the culture in the military that dictates military families not get their mental health needs met. It is my understanding (saw a program on MSNBC when this story first broke nationally) that when a soldier goes for mental health counseling, it must be reported to their superior officer! Well, talk about creating a deterrent for seeking help when you need it! How about that rule get changed ASAP?

As I said above, regardless of the study you look at, the number one indicator of potential abuse is the abuser having grown up in an abusive home. No matter what study you look at, everyone agrees that military families have 2-5 times as much domestic violence as civilian families. To me, what that statistic says is that the military attracts people who have been abused. Certainly not all in military service! But enough that there needs to be very specific, specialized services developed to meet the needs of these families. I don't buy that this just couldn't happen in the Air Force, BTW, despite the fact that I agree with Dave that the greater problem does seem to be with the Army. For some reason, most my friends, relatives, and colleagues have been in the Navy, but I know there continues to be very severe problems with domestic violence there too, and not just with the enlisted. Officers also are involved in domestic violence, which can make it even more difficult for their families to get help, since they wield so much more power on base.

I don't know that the military ought to be the ones responsible for policing, investigating and prosecuting domestic violence, actually. I think it might be necessary to turn that over to civilian social service and police agencies. The male dominant culture of the military really does, IMO, stack the deck against the women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 11:39 AM

...I'll make a wild guess and say "welcome back, Jen"! But even if I've missed the intuitive mark here, I agree that dealing with domestic violence in the military should not be the purview of the MP. I've heard recently from former MP's in the military just the same opinion by the way.

It's kind of analagous to letting the CC shelter criminal child abusers (not disparaging religion here, folks; remember I was raised and shaped by the Episcopalian christians even though my main involvement now is to give money to the Grace Fund for single mothers at my mother's church in Palm Beach Gardens.)

I don't agree that male dominance is the primary force responsible for on base domestic violence problems. I am of the opinion that the lifestyle and disconnect from community is far more impactful, in terms of family violence, as is poverty.

BTW, one of my supervisees for licensure is a full time RC SW. Her experience has greatly influenced my thinking on this. The families that have close familial support and enough money to pay the bills survive with far less violence...peace, hg

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 12:36 PM

I disagree that male dominant culture in the military isn't a primary factor in domestic violence, but we may just be talking about apples and oranges. I would say that the male dominant culture in the military is what is preventing male soldiers particularly from seeking mental health care. But I would also say that there is a very strong cultural tradition of blaming the victims of domestic violence for marital problems, which usually means blaming the wife/girlfriend. Look back up to the posts by people who are associated with the military, and you will see a cultural belief that associates women's sexual fidelity to their cultural beliefs about domestic violence where the woman is the victim. Another cultural belief we see expressed re: domestic violence in the military, over and over, is how "tough" the *male* perpetrator/soldier has it.

I find it VERY interesting that the motive being trotted out for the woman soldier who murdered her husband is said to be about money, OTOH. The motives attributed to the male perpetrators are most definitely not the same as the motives attributed to the female perpetrators. It should be noted that the motive attributed to the female perpetrator is being projected onto her. She hasn't confessed her motive to authorities, as I understand it. This is the motive the prosecutor will likely use to argue his case when it goes to trial, because it the motive they can attach to the evidence they have. But that motive in a court case must also fit into what the cultural beliefs of the jury pool will believe "makes common sense" to them. Any prosecutor worth their salt is going to know what the cultural beliefs of their jury pool is, and will exploit it to their advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: ? What is going on at Fort Bragg?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:56 AM

I hadn't realized that McDonald was at Fort Bragg, Spaw, or I'd have said something...

And being the spouse who stays at home with the kids while the other spouse goes off to war/police/firefighting isn't the same as being a single parent, in which latter case you know you are alone. In the former case you worry every time the phone rings or the doorbell or there is something newsworthy, in case it's news that you are now more alone than you were. Which still isn't heroic, to my mind, but it's not negligably different, either.