BS: Can anyone identify the language here?

Subject: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:08 PM

Just a simple phrase, yet it eludes Babblefish.

Galicia, tiene duende.

It's on a T-shirt my daughter picked out at a thrift store that has Fairies all over it. Anyone got a clue?

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:16 PM

Spanish; Galicia is both a place in Spain and a proper name. Duende seems to be either a type of music or a band name. First seems more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:18 PM

Oh yea--duende also means goblin or unexplained enchantment.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:18 PM

Galicia,you're magical

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:20 PM

Celtic Soul are you coming to harpers ferry?

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:23 PM

I would love to come to HF, Greg. I am afraid that my time is no longer my own from here until October though. I have rehearsals every weekend until our most intensive gig begins (2 weeks from now). Then it's 9 weeks of no weekends...and I work a day job as well.

I would *love* to meet you however! If you have some time in the Northern Virginia area, I live in Reston, and would be happy to host a dinner for you and any other local 'Catter that might wish to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:25 PM

Thanks to all who answered this...I love the sentiment. It's amazing what you'll find in thrift stores!!

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: little john cameron
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:26 PM

I think Duende means the flavor of,as in "The Flavor of Galicia. ljc

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:38 PM

Galicia is a province in the far north western corner of Spain on the Atlantic seaboard.

http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/inicio/index.jsp

In the upper left corner - take the photo tour - it is a striking countryside.

Sincerely, Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:51 PM

Es la verdad.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:54 PM

Galicia has been often added to the "Celtic" list, some ancient Brits are reputed to have slipped over there and set up shop when the Sais arrived in Britain and caused some bother.Galcian music didnt used to sound Irish, but the addition of some bodhrans and low D whistles have started to bend that a little...it offends Galician purists but does wonders for tourists in search of Celts.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:51 PM

Galician music is wonderful, and so is that of neighboring Asturia. Milladoiro is a great band to check out, and Carlos Nunez is a hot piper who has been working with Donal Lunny and appears on Sharon Shannon's "Diamond Mountain Sessions". Great stuff!

Celtic Soul, are you a member of the band Celtic Soul? I hear they're pretty good... You may want to ask your question on the Capercaillie Message Board where some Spanish members post.

Greg, the way I read it, the "Celts" (whoever they were) set sail for Ireland from Northern Spain (this according to a book by Morgan Llewellyn, author of "Red Branch", whose title I can't recall but which concerns the bard Amergin... I think).

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:34 PM

The title of the Llewellyn book is "Bard." It is true that there were migrations of pre-Celts from Spain to Ireland, although I doubt we'd recognize them as Celt today. Very early history.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Teru
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 12:47 AM

Oh, Galicia!

Although the Galician language is not Celtic one, Galicia means "A Land of Gallia (Gaul). So, the spirit of the Gael must live in Galicia which is known as "Celtic Iberia".

Cristina Pato is a young, beautiful, charming and very attractive gaita (pagpipe) player from Galicia.

The film "La Lengua De Las Mariposas (The Tongue Of The Butterfly)" directed by Jose Luis Cuerda is a story just before the Spanish War in Galicia.

Regards

Teru of Japan

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 01:58 AM

Galacia is one of many places in Europe and Asia Minor that Celtic echoes are heard from thousands of years ago. Britian and Ireland were the last hold outs in some respects of Celtic "culture" and so have much more remnants including people still speaking Celtic languages. There are influences still felt in Central Turkey as well.

When we speak of "The Celts" it is of a general, loosly-organized community of tribes that at one point spread all over central Europe from Iberia to Asia Minor and on up to Gaul and the British & Irish Isles. They traded together, had similar religious traditions, connecting languages and in general, a genetic connection. They were never organized into a collective government overall like Rome and probably didn't even get together too often like the Greek City States did to defend against the Persians.

The history of Ireland prior to the Norse is probably as advanced and organized as they ever got (that's not, by any means, a slight).

That Galacia would have some similarities in their music with Ireland, Scotland, Man, Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, & Britain is not surprising. That they have music that is much influenced by other areas of Iberia is also not surprising.

Galacia is appreciating their newly discovered (touristly speaking) connection with Celtic Culture.

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Escamillo
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:15 AM

"Duende" (magic dwarf) in this case means charm, enchantment. Then "Galicia tiene Duende" = "Galizia has enchantment".

Since my wife is pure Galizian, I would add that Galicia tiene bellas mujeres.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 05:05 AM

I'm still marvelling at, "a thrift store that has Fairies all over it." Mine only has bits of china and old clothes. I wanna shop at yours!

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 08:19 AM

It means 'Galicia has charm' or could also mean 'Galicia has enchantment'

Galicia is derivative of some older root correctly associated with central Turkey - above - also Poland, Bulgaria and Bavaria.

Interesting to read on one Chieftans CD Notes, there used be in Galicia a prechristian tradition called 'following the milky way' which it reports ended in Lands End. Wonder if that would be Cornwall?

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 08:31 AM

Finisterre?

Isn't the route followed by pilgrims through Northern Spain to Santiago de (di?) Compostella still known as the 'milky way'?

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:21 AM

"Duende" literally means "fairy" but "tiene duende" means something like "to have something magical about it". Maybe "Galicia is enchanting!" would be a good translation.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: open mike
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 08:12 PM

Oh my! what info sprouts here! I enjoyed hearing an Asturian band, Llan de Cubel, a celtic musical treat from NW Spain. They are from a place surrounded by mts. so insulated from some influences of change by the geography. They did, however have an intersting instrument- which seemed newly invented, and not an orignal old-timey sort: a keyboard (giant) which sat on the floor and was played by foot (by the mandola/bourzouki player) the bass notes sounded not unlike the bass notes of an organ which are played with the foot...also happened upon a rare commodity recently in a small country store in northern CA, a bottle of CIMA brand Sidra Asturiana. It seems as if it is Hard Cider- fermented from apples. imported via Puerto Rico. it says it is Real Sidra- i guess this means cider...haven't tried it yet--

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: open mike
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 08:25 PM

way off thread here--but i just remembered ther is a new museum in that part of the world--in Bilbao--anyone know where that is? The Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao gives tours in Basque, Spanish and English.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 09:56 PM

MichaelR... No, I am not of that particular band. It is mere coincidence that I share the name, as I had never heard of them until someone else asked me that very same question here.

Sian... :::LOL!::: Woops...bit of a dangling modifier there? Anyway, it's still the coolest thrift store I know, but alas, it does not have Fairies all over it.

The T-shirt does, however! Which leads me to suspect that all the people who have translated it to mean something like "Galicia is enchanting" or "Galicia is magical" must have it right.

BUT...Is it really *Spanish*? And if so, why could not Babblefish translate the word "duende"? It came out as "Galicia has duende" when I tried it. And none of the other languages faired any better (most worse).

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:28 PM

Check out Galician piper, Susana Seivane on tour

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Escamillo
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:29 PM

Celtic Soul .. trust me ! My native language is Spanish and my wife is Galizian.. while Babblefish is probably made in China :))

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 04:22 AM

Cider is virtually the national drink in Asturias and the region.

Bilbao is further east along the coast in the Basque countries.

I understand that the north Coast of Spain is where the Spaniards prefer to take their holidays. It's well watered by rain from the Atlantic and more or less undiscovered by other European holidaymakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 12:54 PM

Having taken a skiing holiday this year in Sauze D'oulx (The home of the next Winter Olympics)I can categorically state that "The Milky Way" is a large ski area extending into Italy & France

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 01:14 PM

Interesting comments, wondering why Galicia is Galizia and not Galithia?

Second and not totaly irrelevant please tell me why the language Galician sounds so LIKE Cornish? Perhaps it and Welsh are all variants of the same language eg Brithonic????

Ummm errr BTW Escamillo have you been to Patagonia?

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 01:51 PM

Galicia is also a place that has variously been part of Ukraine, Poland and Austria--they have good music there too, and I would rather think that that is the place influenced by Bulgars and Turks--as opposed to the other--

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Escamillo
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 02:03 PM

No, unfortunately I haven't been to Patagonia, only to Neuquen, which is its Northern region, not in the high mountain area nor in the coast of whales. In general, I go where my jobs bring me, so I know the middle and North of Argentina, half Latin America and the U.S. but (sigh) not the South. That's a unique place in the world (see my thread "Come'n see the whales")

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 02:44 PM

The last time I got involved in discussing Celts and their origins, an unnamed GUEST, who is no doubt a tenured Professor at Oxford, lectured me on my ignorance for citing Jean Markale as an authority on Celtic language, origins, and culture. So I'm a bit gun-shy. This is, however, an interesting thread, and the Gaul-Galicia connection is also intriguing.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 02:49 PM

Galicia is Galicia because the inhabitants didn't pick up the Castilian habit of lisping which is supposedly in imitation of Ferdinand.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 02:58 PM

Hasn`t abybody identified the language yet?
Galicians speak Gallego, if I'm taught right.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 07:56 PM

By the way, is the language spoken by the Basques related to any other European language groups? Just wondering. I believe that it's completely different from Spanish or French.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Escamillo
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 09:27 PM

The origin of Basque is still a mistery, as far as I know. I've been part of the choir of the Basque community in Argentina (one of the largest) and the songs are super-beautiful, but the language is completely alien. However many words in Spanish are originated in Euzkera, the Basque language, as if they were older than Latin based dialects or romance dialects which became the Spanish, French, Italian and many other languages.

Wilfried: yes, the language is Spanish (the only language I speak very well) :)

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 12:23 PM

Humm interesting! Escamillo when you do get to Patagonia you'll be surprised to find that Welsh is spoken there :0)

Re Euskera :Any links to sites welcomed as my little wifee is also descended from a Basque.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Escamillo
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 03:20 PM

The Welsh community in Patagonia is well known and culturally very active. They organize musical events especially in Gayman, and participate in choral festivals in Puerto Madryn every year. I got in contact with the directors asking for a CD, with the intention to introduce it to the Mudcat, but they don't have a professionally recorded session and told me that they are planning to record a CD soon and will advise me.

It's so emotionally rich to hear the grandsons singing the music of their ancestors.

Euskera sites: I'll search a little.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Escamillo
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 03:29 PM

A little late I saw M.Ted's comment and catched its humour ! LOL (Ukranians, Turks and Bulgars! .. or.. eer..is it possible ?)

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 06:37 PM

I bow to those who speak the language, but I've always heard "duende," in relation to flamenco, as referring to soul or spirit--when the dancers, singers, and guitarists are really getting it on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 10:44 PM

Puzzled about your reference to humor, Andres--here is more than you want to know about the other Galicia:

Galicia , Pol. Galicja, Ukr. Halychyna, historic region (32,332 sq mi/83,740 sq km), SE Poland and W Ukraine, covering the slopes of the N Carpathians and plains to the north and bordering on Slovakia in the south. It is drained by the upper Dniester, the upper Vistula, and the San, which divides Galicia into the western (Polish) and the eastern (Ukrainian) parts. The Polish section (area 13,226 sq mi/34,255 sq km) covers Rzeszów and the larger part of Kraków provinces; the Ukrainian section (area 19,106 sq mi/49,485 sq km) includes Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk and Tarnopol oblasts. Mainly agricultural, Galicia also has mineral resources, notably oil wells around Drohobych and Boryslav, in Ukraine, and in Rzeszów prov., in Poland.

Originally the duchy of Halych (Galich), it was united with the duchy of Volodymyr (see Volodymyr-Volynskyy) in 1188 and annexed by Casimir III of Poland in the 14th cent. With the first partition of Poland (1772) most of the region passed to Austria, which made it a crownland with the capital at Lviv (Lemberg) and named it Galicia. Austria enlarged its holdings with the third Polish partition (1795) and again in 1815. In 1846 an abortive Polish insurrection in Galicia served Austria as a pretext for annexing Kraków, an independent republic since 1815.

In 1848 Kraków and Lviv were centers of revolution against Austria, and in 1861 Galicia won limited autonomy, including representation in the Austrian parliament, where Galician deputies formed a powerful bloc. Polish, spoken in W Galicia, and Ukrainian, spoken in E Galicia, became official languages along with German; the Jews, a substantial minority, were refused recognition by the Austrian government. Galicia was the center of the branch of Orthodox Judaism known as Hasidism. The Austrians maintained an uncertain peace by playing off the three major ethnic groups. However, the growing Ukrainian nationalist movement resulted in demands for increased political and cultural rights, or even for independence, in E Galicia. The Polish independence movement also gained ground, but in World War I the Polish legions, organized in Galicia by Marshal Pilsudski, fought under Austrian command until 1917.

In 1918 the Poles, having proclaimed national independence, wrested W Galicia from Austria and fought the troops of the newly established Ukraine republic in E Galicia, forcing them to withdraw. The Paris Peace Conference (1919) assigned E Galicia to Poland pending a plebiscite scheduled for 1944. However, in a treaty (1920) with the Ukrainians, upheld by the Polish-Soviet Treaty of Riga (1921), Poland obtained full title to E Galicia. In 1939 most of E Galicia was incorporated into Ukraine, an act upheld by the Polish-Soviet Treaty of 1945. Nearly all the Jews in Galicia perished during World War II.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Escamillo
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 03:21 AM

M.Ted, sorry ! (however, you see that I had left a door open to new things to learn!) I haven't found any reference to the Eastern European region under the names Galicia or Galizia, but now I've found it in my Spanish Encyclopedia, under the unexpected name of GALITZIA, and all information is coincident with yours. Then there are TWO Galicias, apparently with no relation except the roots of their name. Thanks a lot for the information.

Don, that's correct. "Soul" and "spirit" could also define the meaning of "duende" when referring to artists. In this case, the term is used to define the "soul" of a regional culture.

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 11:23 AM

It's OK Andres, we're all learning here;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Willa
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 11:31 AM

Fascinating thread. A harp player at our local club bought his wonderful harp in Patagonia.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Escamillo
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 03:08 PM

This is a tourist's guide to the area of Patagonia where the Welsh community lives:

http://www.bootsnall.com/cgi-bin/gt/travelstories/sa/may99patag.shtml

And this is an article on the origin of the settlement:

http://www.wm.edu/SO/monitor/fall2000/paper2.htm

(Sorry, I've lost the HTML tricks somewhere) If you search "Patagonia Welsh" in Google you'll find many references.

And this one is an article from Oxford University dealing with the Basque culture and language:

http://www.ehu.es/diaz-noci/Conf/C17.pdf

And finally this one is an excellent site dedicated to Basque music, though in Spanish :

http://www.basque-media.com/index.html

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 09:51 PM

Escamillo, I do indeed trust you!

Thanks to everyone for the information. What a find that T-shirt was! I had no idea it was as culturally connected as it is.

I hate to admit it, but we only bought it because it looked cool. I am very happy indeed to find that it has such a richer meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: Teru
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM

GUEST,sorefingers:

Does Galician sound like Cornish ?

I have never heard Cornish, but Galician belongs to a Romanic group like French and Italian, while Cornish belongs to a P-Celt group such as Welsh and Breton.

My impression is that Galician is closer to Portuguese than to Spanish.

Anyway, the Cetic language has already gone and there are few Celtic words in Galicia, except some names of place such as Lugo, Castrobe, Ogrobe and Xagobe.

Regards

Teru

Subject: RE: BS: Can anyone identify the language here?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 01:16 PM

Thank You Escamillo! Great links.

Re language similarities, Ok. I guess I am confused with other languages in Spain. There are some more..