Child Ballad CD Rom?

Subject: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Bennet Zurofsky
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 05:50 PM

I see an advertisement in my new Sing Out! for a two cd rom edition of Francis Child's magnum opus. One cd is advertised as including a fully searchable text with new maps and gazeteer, MIDI files, and annotation and glossary hyperlinks and the other cd rom is advertised as including full ballad audio tracks from Jean Ritchie, Martin Carthy, Lou Killen, Barrand & Roberts, Heather Wood, Archie Fisher, Heather Heywood, the Patons and others. No price is given. The publisher is Heritage Muse, They say it will be available in October 2002.

Does anyone know anything aabout this? It sounds like the greatest thing since Bronson? Are these new recordings or a collection of previous releases? What kind of new scholarship is included, and how much new scholarship, etc.? Should this be on my Hanukah wish list?

As some of the named performers participate in this mudcat thing I thought this might be a good place for some advance reviews or at least detailed explanantions of what we should expect.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 06:16 PM

Fall 2002 edition? Haven't received mine yet.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 06:28 PM

I'm always a little suspicious of these things.

A 'fully searchable' edition of Child is already available here (for free)

Why is is that people get so exited with Bronson? (apart from a complete lack of understanding)

I can't imagine that the audio tracks would be new recordings, merely 'versions' sung by some better known names.

Interested to hear more, mind

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 09:00 PM

That "fully searchable" site is a formatted version of Cathy Lynn Preston's concordance, which contains song texts only. The notes are missing, so it's of use mainly to people who already have the books and just want to be able to search the texts quickly. Taken out of context, the material is interesting in the same way as are coins found with a metal-detector and displayed at random with no accompanying information.

In common with "guest", I'll be interested to hear more, though I don't know how relevant the audio tracks will be; most of the names quoted are revival, rather than traditional, singers. Perhaps it will be wonderful; we shall have to see.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 02 - 11:37 PM

There is a sucker born every minute P.T.Barnum

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 12:00 AM

Is that related to this project?

~Masato

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 12:05 AM

Awsome - Masato - Thank you very much! Great Resource.

Sincerely, Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: andymac
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 06:02 AM

Masato, Count me in as a fully paid up member of that fan club of yours. I live near Glasgow, visit the Hunterian museum occasionally, I have friends who have very close links to the School of Scottish Studies yet I knew absolutely nothing about this potentially very exciting project. Waiting now with bated breath....

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: John Routledge
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 07:29 AM

The 2CDs will be available in Oct 2002 at $100 ( includes 15 track CD of new recordings and a booklet)

Website of publishers is www.heritagemuse.com(New York based)

Looking forward !!

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 10:17 AM

Gosh! A digital Masato Sakurai! $100 is a bit pricey for me, but it sounds like quite an undertaking.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Aug 02 - 10:54 AM

Naw, artbrooks, the CD's can only answer questions on the Child Ballads...

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 02:11 AM

Heritage Muse has an interesting Website, but I wish they'd tell me a bit more about the CD-ROMs. I already have the song texts in digital text form, and I plan to buy the remaining four volumes of the Loomis House printed edition as soon as they come out (the first is excellent). Do I really need this?
Has anybody here actually seen this product? What MIDI tunes are included?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 03:56 AM

I'm not sure whether it has been issued yet, Joe.

I spoke to David Kleiman (president of Heritage Music) a few weeks ago, and was told that the release was 'imminent'

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 01:31 PM

Hi folks, I've seen the product, and it's excellent. Yes, the notes are searchable, and the edition has several other useful features. For example, unlike the Loomis House editions, the pagination of the original is maintained, so you can use citations from previous scholarship. But, since it's digital, the "additions and corrections" section on each ballad is linked to the main entry, so there's no more searching through four or five books for the version or the notes that you want. The gazeteer is a really neat feature, and has entailed new original research into where the heck a lot of these obscure place-names might be. The point person on that was Heather Wood (of Young Tradition fame).

The CD, despite your understandable skepticism, is indeed new, previously unreleased versions of songs from folk revival heavy-hitters like Martin Carthy and Jean Ritchie. There's an unreleased recording of Fairport doing "Sir Patrick Spens," for example. They plan to use field recordings on some of their later issues, such as the Bertrand Bronson, Cecil Sharp and Frank and Ann Warner collections.

Right now, the holdup is the maps. They are working fast, and plan to have beta-versions out in a couple of days and the final product soon thereafter--next month, I should think.

The Midi tunes that are included are just the ones that Child published in his Volume X. They can be played or imported into composition software for arranging, etc.

BTW, I'm not an employee or investor in Heritage Muse. I'm a journalist and folklorist working on an article about the project, hence have interviewed the relevant folks.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 01:44 PM

BTW,

as far as I know, this is unrelated to the version at School of Scottish Studies. The latter appears to be a collection of quick-time video clips and audio clips, rather than a presentation of the book itself. But it could conceivably be both. Too bad there isn't more info at these websites!

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 08:17 PM

David Kleiman is doing part of his recording here (our little Greenhays Recordings studio),so we catch his enthusiasm for his work on this project; it's amazing the information that it makes available, and I'm sure when it's a bit nearer the finish line, Dave will be happy to come on Mudcat and answer questions...I'M sure- but I'd better ask him before I say that. Meanwhile, it's great to have all these singers coming to my house- a wonderful chance to visit with old friends. Louie Killan was here a few weeks ago- anyone jealous? Not all "better known names," though- some new to me.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:08 PM

Perhaps my term "folk heavy-hitters" was poorly chosen! I forgot that some of these folks are 'Catters!

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:12 PM

Years ago, I found the Helen Child Sargent & George Lyman Kittredge abridgement very helpful in becoming familiar with the Child ballads. Basically, a person can curl up with that book and have a pretty good understanding of the collection within a few days. I recommend it to anyone wanting to sink his or her teeth into Child. Where you go after that, original editions, Dover reprints of the originals, newly updated print editions or computer editions, depends more on your financial resources, working preferences and tastes.      

On the CD edition... think about Spell Check on a computer word processing program. It is a great tool but it is no substitute for knowing a language. Know the ballads (if that's what you want to do) and "searchable" may not be so important. But, again, for many it will come down to whether thay really want books or whether they will be happy enough with CDs.      

I would love to have a copy of Bronson. Just think of all those melodies in one place! Print or paper Bronson? I don't know yet.   
   
All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:13 PM

"...print or computer Bronson?"

Got it wrong twice!

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:29 PM

Dan,

agreed, the searchable function is more useful for scholars than for singers or generally educated people who want to become familiar with the songs. And of course, so many versions of these songs have surfaced since Child wrote that in many cases Child is not the best place to go anyway, if you want singable versions of "Child Ballads." But on the other hand, if you're a singer and you want to find the original words to "Annan Water," it's much easier to do a search than to flip through the hundreds of pages of original--it didn't make the Kittredge/Sargent abridgement, and in Child is tucked away in an "additions and corrections" section. So it depends on your specific needs as well.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 05:57 PM

Two other welcome guests recently were Sandy and Caroline Paton- we hadn't had such a good visit in years! Sandy- you two should join in here and describe the project for everyone. Folks, if Sandy's taking part in this, that should make it trustworthy- yes?      Jean

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: karen k
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 12:07 AM

Saw a protocol version of this in Oct. at NOMAD. It is amazing and beautifully done. Dan, the books can never be replaced but this is an absolutely wonderful supplement. Mine is already on order and I can't wait!!

karen k

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: GUEST,Heritage Muse
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 03:26 AM

Hi folks,

I just got off the phone with kytrad and she mentioned that there was thread up with some questions. I thought I might slip into the thread here to offer answers to any questions that have come up.

Perhaps a first quick note on timing....we fully expected to ship The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (digital edition) by Halloween. Then xmas became the deadline. Now we are working furiously to move it out the door ASAP! (We're so close I can taste it.) The delays were two-fold: firstly technical - there are over 3,000 pages of original text all laid out and paginated to match the originals, there are 600 plus corrections (including many that Child and his publishers did not catch) that we have turned into margin notes, there are over 50,000 hyperlinks including a 2,600 line key index in the text package that make navigation in the ebooks exceptionally easy, we have optimized the find and search routines to handle immediate responses across all 13 books (5 volumes/2 parts each + gazetteer + 9 maps + introductory front matter and study aids) and for future linking to our Bronson release (currently scheduled for late in 2003), there are 55 embeded AIFF files of the tunes in book 10 plus a matching 55 MIDI files (available to registered users from our web-site), and the new scholarship on the gazetteer has consumed almost 6 months of production time....solving some of these issues took longer than anticipated; secondly QUALITY -every page in the work has been proofed 4 times, we are publishing for both the folk enthusiast and for university/scholar use. Therefore, our production standard is extremely high. That doesn't mean that we haven't missed something, but we've given it our best shot. The text is as clean as humanly (with computer aids) possible, the hyperlinks have all been hand checked, the internal programming for the delivery system and indexes have been carefully tested. Beta-testing is underway and everything works on PCs, Macs, and Unix/Linux systems (any OS that runs Adobe Acrobat 5.x) We think you'll all be very pleased.

Accompanying the new gazetteer, there are 9 newly created maps showing the locations mentioned (or implied) in the ballads: the UK, the Scottish Highlands, the Borders, England and Wales, Ireland, the North Atlantic, Europe and the Mediterranean, Historic London, and Historic Edinburgh.

Next, regarding the audio CD....It is intended that each of our announced products have at least one companion audio CD. Whenever possible we will deliver newly recorded or previously unreleased tracks from a wide variety of performers. My intent is to show the tune side of each collector's work as part of an ongoing, thriving musicial world. Not everyone will agree with my choices for each CD but they do represent a wide variety of styles in performance and music history, illustrating (or perhaps illuminating) how each collector's works are or have been interpreted over the years. Here's a partial list (not in any specific order) of tracks from the upcoming release:

"Loving Henry" - Jean Ritchie (Aug 2002)
"Old Bangum" - Roberts and Barrand (Aug 2002)
"Lamkin" - Anita Best (Aug 2002)
"James Hatley" - Martin Carthy (Aug 2002)
"Sweet William/Earl Brand" - Louis Killen (June 2002)
"Three Ravens" - The Patons (July 2002)
"Lady Margret" - Jen Larson (Aug 2002)
"Battle of Otterburn" - Archie Fisher (1984)
"Brown Girl" - Julia Friend (June 2002)
"Robin Hood & the Bishop of Hereford" - Heather Wood (June 2002)
"Tamlin" - Orrin Star & Russell Scholl (Sept 2002)
"Sir Patrick Spens" - Fairport Convention (recorded live, NJ, 1983)
"Silkie" - Joan Baez (recorded live, Stanford Univ. 1961)
"Gypsie Laddie" - Tom Spiers & Larkin Bryant (Aug 2002)
"Annie of Roch Royal" - Heather Heywood (July 2001)
and more....

In addition to the two CDs (text and audio) there is a large amount of additional content both the digital edition and available to registered users through our web-site. For example the text CD also contains a Preface by Michael Taft of the American Folklife Center at Library of Congress and a new essay on Ballads as Literature from Fiona McNeill, Professor of Drama and Literature, SUNY-Purchase. There are new study aids including guides to reading old and middle english characters found in the ballads, guides to Greek pronunciation (Child included 40 languages in the books), and guides to Medieval and Renaissance calendar days, coinage, and accounting (all mentioned in the ballads.) The web-site has the MIDI files, additional audio tracks (MP3s), curriculum and study guides for teachers, additional essays, and new guide to Flora, Fauna, and Food Stuffs mentioned in The English and Scottish Popular Ballads.

This is a lot to cover. Again, if I can answer any questions please post a note here or contact me directly at: [e-mail].

Also, check out the web-site at: www.heritagemuse.com

I hope this helps to clear things up.....

David M. Kleiman

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:49 PM

Yum! Any idea what the approximate cost will be? I'm starting to save my pennies.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: GUEST,HeritageMuse
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:36 AM

Hi again,

Sorry I left that piece of info out of last night's post....

The package, 2 cds (text and audio) with a small liner notes booklet, goes for $100 US plus shipping and handling to individuals.

Institutional licenses start at $200 for a single-seat license and go up from there for multi-user network versions (based on FTE units for schools and population base for public libraries).

In addition to our distribution facilities here in the US we already have a UK fulfillment house set up so the English and Scottish Popular Ballads (digital edition) will be available for local shipping world wide as soon as manufacturing is complete.

David M. Kleiman

Subject: Child Collection on CD-ROM
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 07:38 PM

In the new issue (#110) of Dirty Linen magazine, there is a major review of the new Loomis House edition of Child's The English and Scottish Popular Ballads. Loomis House Press

Perhaps more interesting is the fact that Child's seminal work is now available on a CD-ROM, compiled by David Kleiman of Heritage Muse who was working from first editions belonging, among others, to our own Sandy and Caroline Paton. Heritage Muse

I quote from Steve Winick's article:
The digital edition... uses PDF files to create a fully searchable, hyperlinked version of Child's work. This has the obvious advantage [over the Loomis book version] of maintaining the pagination of the original book, but linking together the "additions and corrections" so you can jump easily from one to the next... Scolars... can now search Child's texts and his notes for keywords, which will save hours of rereading and note-scribbling. Words that appear in the glossary are hyperlinked to their glossary entry, and each glossary entry is hyperlinked back to the ballads where the word appears...
The digital Child offers considerable added content, as well...creating a place name index... along with a series of beautiful, full-color maps showing all the places mentioned in Child's ballads. Each place on the map is linked to its entry in the index, and each entry in the index is linked to each ballad in which that place is mentioned. You can thus jump easily from ballad to index to map, and back to ballad... The digital edition links each transcription to a MIDI file, so that by clicking on an icon you can hear the tune played through your computer. One more bonus... is an audio CD of [14] Child ballad performances by contemporary folksingers.

The CD-ROM/audio CD package sells for $100. Sounds like a good deal to me!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Child Collection on CD-ROM
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 08:30 PM

Such a deal! DEFINATELY worth looking into. Soonz I get out from behind Christmas.

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Joybell
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 05:21 PM

Well I've been using my copy for some time now and I thought it was worth refreshing this thread. Sorry if there's another more recent thread about it. Couldn't find one.
After some initial problems, caused by Adobe rather than the product itself, I've found it very easy to use and very helpful. It is probably not of much interest to someone who just wants singable words, but I've had a lifelong interest in the background of the songs I sing. I have had the books for about 30 years and know my way around the collection already, but I am enjoying this product as an additional reference tool. The audio CD that accompanies the CD rom is well done and enjoyable. It doesn't contain anything I haven't got elsewhere, but it's a welcome extra.
For me this product was well worth the money.
Nothing will ever replace Mudcat as a well of knowledge, of course. Just had to put that in. Cheers Joy

Subject: RE: Child Ballad CD Rom?
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:07 PM

Yes, beware! You need Adobe Reader 5 or 6 (not 4).