BS: Where did the children go?

Subject: Where did the children go?
From: C-flat
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:50 PM

I know I'll sound like some old fogie banging on about how kids were different "when I were a lad!" but I recently overheard a group of very young children, probably no older than 6 or 7 singing a recent chart hit, "I wanna have sex on the beach".
My own 5 year-old daughter knows most of the words to "Atomic kitten" songs or maybe "S-club 7" and for the life of me I don't know where she's learning them!
The "sex on the beach" song aside, most of these songs are harmless enough in content but are certainly adult in their theme and I find it a little hard to listen to babies singing
"Baby you're the one,
You still turn me on,
You can make me whole again"
This got me thinking back to my innocent childhood and to some of the songs that I remembered singing along to.
Who could forget Tommy Steele and his "Little White Bull"?
or Bernard Cribbins with top selling singles such as "Right said Fred","Gossip Calypso" and "Hole in the ground"?
Then there was Ken Dodd with the classic "Where's me shirt"
Tommy Coopers' "Don't jump of the roof, Dad"
Charlie Drake had a few chart hits with songs like "My boomerang won't come back" and a version of Bobby Darrens'"Splish-Splash"
I don't suppose these mean much to our American friends here, but the titles should be enough to give you an indication of the nature and content of these "silly" songs.
I'm always singing "daft" songs to my little girl, wether it's "My baby has gone down the plughole" at bathtime or the "Windmill in old Amsterdam" song about the mouse on the stairs at bedtime, and she's always laughed and sang along but lately I've noticed her looking at me patiently as if she's humouring me by letting me act the fool with her!
Nobody wants their kids to grow up too quickly and maybe I'm too acutely aware of how fast the years pass but I think the music industry target a very young audience and play a large part in the loss of our childrens' innocence.
I'm begining to sound like my Father complaining about my taste in music......"You can't even tell what they're singing about!" I recall was his most popular remark, but I was probably going on for 12 or 13 before "pop" music became any sort of influence in my life.
I have such fond memories of my early life and the fact that we weren't expected to be anything but children, these days even kids clothes are just smaller versions of the latest fashion.
I wonder how this latest generation will feel about their childhood, or will they have just been little grown-ups in waiting?

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,Mickey!91 (Not Guest)
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:33 PM

C-flat, From your selection of childhood songs I'm obviously older-my little songs were Tisket a Tasket & Mairzy Doats. (Learned to tap to the latter.) I am appalled at the stuff I see on MTV. Surfing the other day & saw Britney Spears. Every other line she was doing a full body rub with a male dancer. At the time, I wondered what do little kids think when they see this crap. Of course as soon as they are able, they emulate. Eminem won the big prize the other night. Isn't he an example for kids? Michael (I want to be white ) Jackson was the first one I ever saw, inappropriately touching himself as he "sung." Now even girls are doing it.If I had young children today-I wouldn't have a tv. On another subject, try buying LITTLE GIRL clothes now. They are impossible to get. They're designing clothes for sub teens which are knock-offs of revealing outfits worn by "Ladies of the Evening."

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:33 PM

Radicalize your children. YOU tell THEM what TV to watch. When they complain that all their friends watch MTV, tell them their friends have no taste and no sense. Turn your children into geeks and make them proud of it. 15 years ago, half the 13 year old metropolitan girls had had abortions. Guess what it's like now. And find out where your kids are learning those songs. Go the source and stop it or level a morals charge. Sounds silly but it often works. The results can be a serious object lesson.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:43 PM

(Sigh.....)

Bobert

p.s. You could have gone all night without bringing up "Splish Spash", C-Flat. Now I'll never get to sleep... "yeah, how was I to know there was a party going on..."

Danged...

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 11:50 PM

In retrospect, my rant above sounds lunatic. Probably because it's sincere and I'm not very persuasive. The fact is that Gresham's Law has been operating on the music business for 50 years. An excess of shit drives out quality goods, to paraphrase it.(Bad money drives out good). The only solution is to purge the shoddy. Market forces won't work when the market is almost entirely manipulated.When you are offered musical shit, say so - loudly. Complain. When people can't play their instruments, point it out. If necessary, the one thing young people will always respond to is derision. It may be cruel but it's a duty to the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:30 AM

C-Flat: I think that every generation of parents is appalled at the way the next generation of kids is raised. To a great extent, with good reason. Over the last seventy or eighty years we've gone from "Sweet Sixteen and never been kissed" to "Sweet sixteen and only three abortions so far." My two sons are 33 and 27 now, and when I look back on when they were growing up in the 90's, it seems like the age of innocence. They had heavy metal (only allowed to be played at human levels at home)and black t-shirts, but in a way, even that seemed innocent. They took it about as seriously as most kids took Kiss. I listened to and enjoyed rock up until the suicide of Curt Cobain: "The Day the music died," 90's style. As rap and hip hoo took over and Michael Jackson became check-out counter magazine fodder, and R.E.M. became too precious for my taste, I've found pop music unlistenable. I guess that the thing that bothers me is, are most teenagers THAT pissedd off? They seem to want to annihilate themselves. O.k., maybe I want to Hold Your Hand was sappy, and completely dishonest, but at least it offered a sense of caring about someone else, not just using them. I don't know how you go about rasing a girl, period, because I rasied two boys. But, raising a girl now has to be very stressful.

But, then, just when I'm ready to give up on this generation, some even older codger starts waxing romantic about the forties. I usually bring the conversation to a screeching halt when I say, "Ah, yes, the forties... those were the days!, remember the holocaust? and when they still lynched blacks and didn't call them blacks?" Inter-racial couples walk the streets of my home town now (and live there) when in the fifties, if you were black and mistakenly stopped in my home town, you'd get out of there as fast as you could, out of fear or having profanities thrown at you.

I'm re-reading a wonderful book, Why Bad Things Happen Good People and the author makes an interesting point. He wonders if mankind is only a small step through the evolutionary process... especially morally and spiritually. I think that's an interesting theory. If that's the case, I can see us inching forward on some things... prejudice and a little wider acceptance of people who are different from us. But, when it comes to music, we've been walking in the wrong direction for a long time. Maybe not in terms of eternity, but in our own limited time frame. I keep hoping that there's going to be a turn-around one of these days. How much further can they take movies and music? Maybe there's a glimmer of hope in that this summer, several "G"-rated movies did exceptionally well, and some of innocuous, manufactured boy groups actually sing about romance. But man, the glimmers are mighty faint, right now.

When I raised my sons, I didn't let them have a lot of amterial stuff that their friends had, and amazingly, they didn't complain or try to make me feel guilty. They probably realized how futile that would have been. So, stand your ground, C. If your daughter gets too radicalized, make her go to her room and keep playing "Hip To Be Square" by our friend Huey, until she sees the light. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Mickey191
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:19 AM

Jerry, I usually enjoy your posts, and agree with alot of what you've said here. I take exception to your 40"s take . When we wax nostalgic about those years -we are not missing the lynchings, the holocaust, segregation or any of those dark historical happenings. We speak of the wonderful music & movies,Joltin' Joe, Joe Louis. When little girls pushed doll carriages, Ladies didn't curse or smoke on the street, People dressed up to go to church,kids were safe. Old people were respected and one never sassed a teacher, and most families gathered around the radio. We laughed together & couldn't wait for McGee to open that closet door. Corny-Yes. But we were alot happier and our families were closer. Slainte

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 02:52 AM

It's impossible to restrict your child to your choices. I've never owned a Steps record, turned them off when they appear on TV and openly subjected the bratling to such tortures as Mozart, church, Radio 2, the Science museum, John Kirkpatrick and regular sessions with the melodeon as a form of punishment. She sings along to some folk stuff (under pain of beating) but would still prefer the things her friends are listening to, like Steps. They mostly have MTV, cable and Satelite, things I won't allow in the house.... but if she's to grow up a sad and lonely child who is totally misunderstood and ostracised from her contemporaries, then I shall have to keep her at home 24/7 and never let the outside world in. Which is basically what happened to me for several years, total insulation against the modern world. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, I'm certain I'm not going to do it to my child. And if I want her to wear girl dresses as opposed to jail bait dressing, then I make them or frequent shops other than the chains and cheapies. It is possible to be a child, but it is impossible to stop your child being an adult - unless you kill them and have them stuffed, which has been suggested!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Venthony
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 03:02 AM

Mass produced music -- especially when spread by automaton electonics -- is simply evil. People on this site, above all others, should realize that.

If your kids or -- considering the geezer factor on this site -- grandkids insist on watching the obscenities now on MTV, disconnect the damned cable and teach them "I'm In Love With a Big Blue Frog."

My folks listend to to Benny Goodman and disdained the Beatles. The difference was that the Beatles, and Benny Goodman, were both, duh, actual musicians.

Tony

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 03:30 AM

C-flat - your post reminds me of a stomache-turning incident where a fond karaoke-running father allowed his two very young girls (probably about 7 & 9)to sing that aweful song that went "lets talk about SEX baby, lets talk about YOU and ME". It was just so blatantly a "shag me" song and I felt it was really inappropriate for little kids to sing it. This was at a local fete, and of course the kids got huge applause & most people seemed to think it really cute.
Having said that, I totally agree with Liz that you can't partition your children off from the world that their contemporaries inhabit. I think the best you can do is to try to give them self-confidence to think for themselves rather than follow the lowest-common-denominator media-led fads. They need that confidence to "dare to be different" - we can't change the environment they have to live with, but we can equip them to deal with that environment and to think for themselves. One of the most important things is that they should have strong role-models - to give them something better than a body-rubbing Britney to emulate! The folk world is full of strong individualistic people, so there's a good place to start...
Above all, teach them to laugh at crap pop pap. :>)

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:00 AM

I totaly agree. Kids should not be subjected to all this blatant sex! Lets teach them the good old folk songs instead. Starting with The Cuckoos Nest, then The Bonny Black Hare, then the...

Hehehe

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:38 AM

I don't think there are many really blatant "shag me" folk songs are there? There are plenty of bawdy tales in song, but I think the "begging for it" type of song are predominently pop aren't they?
I am quite happy for Hamm to sing the full 7 drunken nights in public, but would be appalled for her to sing invitational sex songs such as Sex on the Beach.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:09 AM

Hey, Mickey191: You're right, of course. I've overstated my position. The couple of times that I've challenged people about the 40's were people who are extremely racist. I wouldn't normally say that to anyone, but I got angry with two women who were judging today's world, because they have openly stated that the jews got what they desearved in the holocaust and that they should send the negroes back to Africa. Yes, there are people still that racist and ugly in this world. Hard to believe. I was astonished to hear the statement that the jews got what they deserved at Auschwitz. sickened by it. That's why when they started complaining about black welfare Mother's I lost my temper and challenged them when they started saying how much worse things are today.

I agree... the 40's were all that you described, and I'm glad I grew up then. As a family, even though we were hardly a Norman Rockwell family, we did enjoy sitting around together listening to the radio, doing puzzles, playing board games and singing. Kids had a chance to be kids when I grew up... something they are mostly deprived of now. They are looked upon as sales units, I'm afraid. Even raising my sons in the 80's and 90's seemed better than today. It's no wonder to me that other countries hate their cultures being "Americanized," with the deterioration of music and movies over here.

There's a lot of great wisdom coming out in these posts. C-flat has posed a complex and disturbing question and it will take a lot of us to fully express the issues involved. It is true that there needs to be some balance between setting values AT HOME for your children, and still letting them be in the world. Each parent has to find their own balance, and to some extent, we all get it at least a little "wrong." Some people I know tried to protect their kids by sending them to private school, thinking that kids have been raised better who go there. But, you can't escape from the culture you live in, and your kids are going to be exposed to it, no matter what you do. I guess if I have any strong feelings about all of this is that it's what happens at home that matters most. If you raise your kids with respect and teach them to value themselves and others, they will be able to withstand the peer pressures without becoming so cut off from everyone that they can't have friends. They'll just find other kids like them... and there are others. Not all kids are like Eminem or Britney Speers.

I have a granddaughter who is the age of CFlat's daughter, and she is going to be exposed to everything he talks about. She is already, as she has reached the ripe old age of 6. She has a younger brother who will start kindergarten next year, and he will be immersed in school pressures soon, too. There's a saying that we are to be "in" this world but not "of" it. I think that's the challenge of raising your kids today, perhaps more than ever. It's going to take a lot of love and respect at home to help kids deal with the world around them when they're with their friends.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: C-flat
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 09:17 AM

Some good views expressed here. I very much like the idea of teaching my daughter to laugh at the "body-rubbing-crap-pop" (nice turn of phrase, King Brilliant) and, as Venthony suggests, I do try to continually introduce her to "real" music and "real" musicians, only time will tell if any of it sticks!
Liz, you sound as though you've been on the front line yourself recently with "the bratling" and although you're right to be strong and stand your ground on these issues while trying to give a balanced exposure to the real world, are you sure you're not at risk of prosecution by using the Melodium as a punishment?.......Surely that's too harsh! :~)
Misophist, in context your "lunatic rant" sounds perfectly reasonable to me and I do often complain about the "musical shit" on offer but in truth it's usually a one sided conversation involving me and the T.V. and I rarely, if ever, seem to win the argument!
I reckon Jerry's right about finding the balance and I suppose the trick to it is try and find the positive elements of todays culture while still keeping one foot rooted in the best bits from the past.
Every generation has a different perspective on the same era and I may be a little old fashioned for this one. This could be the price of starting a family at 40!
By the way Jerry, I used to play "Hip to be square" up until fairly recently, I reckon you've got me figured out!
Bobert, Sorry about the "Splish-Splash thing. I sympathise entirely. After starting this thread last night I can't stop singing "My old man's a dustman".
I must've stirred up some other classics that have been just waiting for this moment!
Was the American music scene of the late 50's/ early 60's peppered with kids songs? I remember "The big rock candy mountain" and the "Beep-Beep" song but most of the stuff we heard in the U.K. was put out by home grown entertainers/comedians.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:17 PM

Back in the 'good old days' there was a certain teen ager who was the despair of his family, always into trouble, especially for speeding and racing. His name was Julius Caesar. Whild it's true that the more things change, the more they stay the same, it's also true that sometimes things go utterly down the toilet. Much of modern pop demonstrates this.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 03:53 PM

The comments about 40s nostalgia remind me of an incident some years ago.

I was commuting into London by train at the time of the Brixton riots. Two elderly ladys opposite were discusing the news.

One says "we didn't have riots before the war"

At that point I looked out of the window, straight down in to Cable Street.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:32 PM

when people talk about childhood innocence...well it churns my stomache...cause i do not see it ever existing...just an illusion...granted people did not talk about sex all the time...not directly, anyways...but it was there...it is like how folks talk about things like "what is happening these days?" "why can't children just be children?"...the same sort of crap is just going on as before...only more publicised and given more attention to than before...childhood innocence is an illusion nothing more...it was never there, and it never will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:17 PM

It's true that every older generation thinks things are "getting worse". Nothing new about that. Things usually get worse in some ways while getting better in other ways, and it's hard to sort that out to a single conclusion. The stuff that's gotten worse draws more notice from people, that's all. The kids when I was a kid were often sadistic little bullies, by the way! :-) I doubt that's gotten any worse.

But I'll say this, C-flat: the reason for the increasingly vulgar music & video stuff that has you distressed can be expressed in 2 words...

"marketing" & "profit" (primarily driven by TV, now being driven increasingly by the Internet)

I would feel almost helpless to deal with it if I had any children, but I guess I would still try to. Since I don't though, my solution is simple. I don't watch TV at all, and I avoid other commercial outlets (like radio) if I possibly can. I also don't tend to buy heavily advertised products (if I am aware of that advertising in the first place, and specially if I don't LIKE the ads).

It would sure be a laugh if 100 million other people started behaving as I do...and then watch the marketing system go into a blind panic!

But hey, that'll never happen. :-) The public in general is as predictable as Pavlov's dog, it seems.

We need a friggin' revolution, but I doubt we'll get one any time soon. I know what Castro was fighting for in 1959, and I don't blame him one bit. He was right.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: C-flat
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:47 PM

The one ray of hope in the image and marketing business that has latched onto the music/entertainment industry is their neccessity to move on to the next new thing.
I find it hard to believe that the trend could lean too much further towards sex without someone actually performing live sex acts while belting out their new release. (sounds like it belongs on the "double entendre thread")
As Jerry said earlier, kids are regarded as "sales units", that certainly wasn't true of my generation, unless you count cap guns and penny chews as big business, but nowadays the brand leaders know that the way into the parents wallets and purses is through the kids. They know all too well the difficulties of saying no to a child brought up in a society that imprints brand names into infant minds.
I just hope the next "thing" the market "invents" doesn't depend on children of 5 to act like 25year-olds.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:56 PM

Wasn't Britney Spears supposed to be making being a virgin at 18 a fashionable thing?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM

Thank God for the Teletubbies.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: wilco
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:19 PM

C-flat: I have eight kids (ages 32 to fifteen), here in the USA, and have raised kids in the seventies, eighties, nineties, etc. I have three grandkids. What is amazing is how conservative these kids become when they become parents. Their are many, many more youngsters who aren't sexually active, using drugs/alcohol, and are fine people. I don't thimk that we can complain too much about how demeaning pop culture can be, rather its cheap popular music, MTV, demeaning sexuality, glamourizing alcohol/drugs. IMHO, we've both dumbed-down our standards, and we have falsely elevated pop culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:45 PM

There was a lot of rhetoric back in the 60s and 70s about building a counter culture, and most of it was hype.

But looking around at festivals this year I got a feeling that folk people here really have gone a long way towards building a real, if fragile, multi-generational counter-culture, and if I had youing kids, that's the sort of environment I'd want to raise them.

And I remember the other year when there was ll that stuff about young Elian Gonzalez, and looking at the pictures of Miami, and big cities in England too, and of his home town in Cuba, and thinking that if that was my grandchild, I know where I'd sooner he was raised.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,Glade
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:03 PM

I don't see much innocence in the past, even in my own past which is considerably closer than the 40's and 50's. My folks always made sure their children knew what was going on and why...also why and how to work for a better world. Fairness is a majorly large issue with children and they respond viscerally to reports of big corporations exploiting little people - especially when they're old enough to comprehend that they themselves are being used and manipulated in someone's quest for money and power.

Now please excuse me while I rant: Some kids WEREN'T safe in the 40's & 50's PRECISELY because of the "dark historical happenings." A beloved in-law of mine is a black woman who, as an 8 year old out riding her brand new fourth-hand Christmas bike, was raped, beaten, thrown in a ditch and left for dead by a group of white teenagers in America in the 40's; it was three days before her folks found her and she continues to suffer physically from the sequelae of that atrocity. And when the "old people" of her family dared to ask for justice, they were NOT treated respectfully. And European Jewish children and old people were certainly not safe and respected in the 30's & 40's - not always even if they made it to America or England. It is true that no German child ever sassed a Jewish teacher back then, at least not after the Nurnburg race laws were formulated. And what did "historical happenings" do to a white Christian child or old person in the Kentucky coal fields in the good old days of the 20's and 30's - if your family was on the wrong side you could literally starve ... maybe expect to see a father, brother, or son shot or beaten.

"Dark historical happenings" happen to living, breathing, fully human people - who find themselves with memories of wonderful movies and baseball games that are somehow tainted - a less than nostalgic view of the past - an ugly memory of a childhood Christmas; but these happenings don't just 'happen', of course; other living, breathing people bring them about. I love my good memories as well as anyone; I've just never believed blanket endorsements of any era inhabited by humans could be realistic.

Glade

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 10:21 PM

The 40's were a different animal if you were black.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Tinker
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:03 PM

I've got four kids ranging from 8 to 15. Somehow even with TV and pop radio my daughter dresses much more conservatively than her mom did at the same age back in the '70's. She laughs as we go through stores and see little girl clothes that are clearly"Junior Slut Ensembles" and matches her own look against an innner code.

I mourn more for the freedom and choices my children have not known. The freedom to head out til supper time and just roam the neighborhood. They have organized playdates ( or no one is available to play. I takes real effort to help them keep open time,to simply be, in a land of too many choices......and perhaps too many inputs trying to "help" them choose.

But most of their friends are great kids even into their teens. What they seem to have missed is the songs of hope and future we grew up with. Folk music gives me a chance to throw a few in now and then. BR>
I let them watch/listen to what they wish, but they have to be willing to watch it with me and I still hold veto power to turn it off it I don't like it.

Brittany and the boy bands seem to be on the wane and a new generation of acoustic singer/songwriter young women are breaking on the the scene. Not the old days, but a new twist. This mom is mostly just winging it on a wig an a prayer....

Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:45 PM

Children, especially girls, are being sexualized as little sexy adults more now than in the past, all in the name of fashion marketing. A couple of years ago I viewed a documenatary of American parents who put their girls, from infants to teens, in "beauty" pageants with seductive clothing and stripping "dance" routines. I think the film was made by a British film maker. It was sick, but just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the marketing of sex to young kids. My son has been raised to be very careful about the character of the friends he chooses. The last couple of years I've kept him focused on playing trad Irish session tunes, which has helped... keeps him busy. He has friends on the internet, but they are talking about Myst and Tolkein. He has known since fifth grade that I forbid him from having a romantic relationship with a girl until he is 18. He protested at first, when alot of classmates paired off, but now he is glad that I taught him to be more conservative. The girls he has as friends are other musicians, girls with good character that he respects. The majority of the high school though, is filled with, as he says, druggies and sluts. It's all out in the open, flaunted. I'm certainly more conservative than I used to be because I see now how self-destructive my generation has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:49 AM

Hi, C: Maybe we're living in the days of the single entendre.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GMT
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 06:18 AM

Younger Generation (John Sebastian)(1967)

Why must every generation think their folks are square
And no matter where their heads are they know mom´s ain´t there
Cause I swore when I was small that I´d remember when
I knew what´s wrong with them that I was smaller then

Determined to remember all the cardinal rules
Like sun showers are legal grounds for cutting school
I know I have forgotten maybe one or two
And I hope that I recall them all before the baby´s due
And I know he´ll have a question or two

Like "hey Pop, can I go ride my zoom
It goes two hundred miles an hour suspended by balloons
And can I put a droplet of this new stuff on my tongue
And imagine frothing dragons while you sit and wreck your lungs
And I must be permissive, understanding of the younger generation

Then I´ll know that all I´ve learned my kid assumes
And all my deepest worries must be his cartoons
And still I´ll try to them him all the things I´ve done
Related to what he can do when he becomes a man
And still he´ll stick his fingers in the fan

And "Hey, Pop, my girlfriend´s only three
She´s got her own videophone and she´s taking L.S.D.
And now that we´re best friends she wants to give a bit to me
But what´s the matter Daddy, how come you´re turning green?
Can it be that you can´t live up to your dream?"

1967 Faithful Virtue Music Co., Inc,

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: C-flat
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:53 AM

A couple of people here have made the point that previous generations were no safer or happier than today.
I would agree that children have always been at risk from an unpleasant minority and that's not new or exclusive to any era but as far as more "innocent" times I can certainly testify to the fact that my own childhood in the 50's/60's was a happy, uncomplicated round of climbing trees, playing football, stealing apples and being able to go off on our bikes without the need to check home every hour the way that most kids are required to do today.
Maybe we were just lucky, it didn't seem to be an issue. Older folks would stop and talk to kids or stand and watch the football game on the back field. If an adult is seen "loitering" around kids these days the police are called and questions asked!
The point has been well made that EVERY generation sees failings in the next, GMTs' song from 1967 illustrates the same sort of concerns and issues as today, and Wilco 48 clearly understands these matters far better than me, having raised 8 kids over three decades. I recognise myself in his remark that it's "amazing how conservative these kids become when they become parents" and would be the first to admit to being over-protective where my little girl is concerned.
My main point in starting this conversation was to underline what I see as the deliberate targeting of the "pocket-money" section of our society with adult images and aspirations and comparing it with the childrens entertainment of my own youth.
I have no doubt that there are some people here reading this that had an unhappy childhood and would pour scorn on what seems to them to be sentimental, nostalgic nonsense. For those people I'm truly sorry. Every child should be allowed to grow up in a happy, safe environment and have fond memories to treasure in later life and I'm determined to do what I can to ensure my daughter can remember being a child and what it meant to feel free of the cares and woes that we all carry in later life.
C-flat

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:44 PM

You know, C, I raised two sons, for most of those years on my own. I tried to make sure that they'd have a ton of great memories to carry with them, because there were other aspects of our life that were very destructive and stressful. My Mother has always said that life is making memories, so you should make the best ones you can. I really believe that. And things WERE different in the 40's and 50's. I grew up in a house that was never locked, never broken in to. We could lock the front door if we were so inclined, but you could buy a "skeleton" key at the "dime" store that would open almost every front door in town.

A year and a half ago, we moved to Derby, CT and felt like we'd come back to the 50's. Everyone watches out for everyone else in the neighborhood, and a single woman can go walking in the dark (and they do) and feel safe. It's a good feeling. I haven't experienced that since I moved away from my home town in the early 60's. Everything ISN'T the same. There are sections of town here that aren't as safe (and we do lock our doors.) Who knows, C, maybe it's all to sell security systems. A week rarely passes without someone trying to sell us one, despite there not having been any break-ins in the area we live in in anyone's memories, and many neighbors have lived here for forty years or more. That's bad for business. Maybe the burglars should be under contract to the security companies to hit up a couple of houses in neighborhoods like ours, just to create a demand for security systems.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:46 PM

True enough, you can go back through history and find people writing how things are getting wilder and wilder. But if you look closer you tend to find it's not a steady development in one direction, it goes in cycles. You get a permissive period that lets things out, and then a repressive period that winds them in again, and so on.

I imagine it won't be long and we'll have relatively repressive period again.

For example, I don't think it is going to be long at all before the fears about child abuse and so forth will give rise to a fairly savage social and cultural crack down on all this sexualisation of childhood stuff.

One thing that is perhaps new to this generation (meaning the last twenty or thirty years, but increasingly so) is the way in which isolated episodes and tragedies, which have probably always happened, get brought to all our attention so vividly and persistently, giving us a false impression of the balance of dangers in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:24 PM

sorry but even back then the jack down the street could be molested by another boy who was probably buggered by 50 year old james on the corner...lucy could have a special relationship with her father....so close that he would visit her at night...chuckie's dad could be a great well known lawyer....who likes to drink...and then takes his frustrations out on his boy...like i said before there is no such thing as childhood innocence...i grew up in a small town in North Idaho...picture perfect town...an hour and a half drive from coeur d'alen...2 hours from spokane...that is if you would discount the perverts and the drunks...and the druggies...underneath any surface there is a darker layer....that is not that hard to find if you know where to look.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:04 PM

Amergin: Of course, there has always been a darker layer. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that life in the 40's and 50's was like Leave It To Beaver. I know that where I grew up there were instances of incest, rape and sodomy going on, although I didn't know it until I was an adult. I'm sure it's been going on forever. That accepted, there wasn't a national organization promoting sex between adults and children (as there is now,) and I never thought that Shirley Temple was coming on to adults, as girls her age suggest now in junior beauty contests. I think that now, it's a matter of marketing. The darker layer is on top, and you have to dig underneath to find the majority of kids who aren't on drugs, or having sex at nine. I share C's concern that kids lose their innoncence a lot earlier. If where you grew up, seven year old kids were dancing in the playground, grabbing their crotches and singing I want to have sex with you, Northern Idaho must have been years before its time... We weren't doing that in Wisconsin. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:07 PM

no...we had more important things to worry about....like food...

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:14 PM

The truth is most of the time in many (I suspect most places) if you go out and forget to lock the front door, you probably won't get burgled. I've done it often enough.

But being more aware of the possibility, and also knowing that, unlike most of our parents, there are probably a few things in our homes worth stealing, we sensibly enough prefer to lock up. However it's a real mistake to imagine that the picture of a threatening world ready to pounce on us if we ever let our guard up is true, even if it helps sell papers and padlocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:51 PM

Now you're talking my language, Amergin! Growing up, the only reason we had enough to eat is that my Father had a good-sized garden that we all worked in, my Mother canned enough vegetables to get us through the winter, My Father hunted rabbits, pheasants, squirrel and deer and fished every weekend, all year around. And when we didn't have fish nor fowl, there was always creamed peas or chipped beef on toast. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:22 AM

I have a boy and a girl, 6 and 8, very good kids, and I was a very problematic kid myself. I'm very torn on saftey sorts of questions like climbing trees, free range of the neiborhood. I don't let my kids do things that I did, and enjoyed doing. But I'm not completely happy about it, I wish I could be a little braver.

The sexuality thing is different, but I'm not sure it will turn out badly. Possibly these kids will grow to see the childish vulgarity of ostentatious sexuality more clearly than people do who grew up with it as a big secret. Maybe these kids will grow out of it, the way older generations apparently never did--grown men making absolute fools of themselves, commiting obsessive criminal acts, over a little bit of sex.

I found it pretty grotesque at my daughter's school talent show to see so many kids doing these smooth sultry dating songs, but was not offended, just embarrassed by it. Kids tend to grow up, and want to leave their childishness behind them. They'll come to associate this sexy junk with us, as something we foisted onto them, not with themselves, I bet.

When I was a kid, sex was always some mysterious secret thing, and an odd result of that was that mature married women were eroticized for me--they were in the inner circle, the high preistesses of sex, had a cooler sexual demeanor than young girls trying to be sexy.

My problem with porn and other blatant eroticism is mainly that it sucks, is childish, and lame. And the pretensions, style, and pretexts of milder, more acceptable eroticism are probably worse than cruder stuff. Playboy is horrible with it's misted shopping-catalogue style, and "personality" profiles. What is nastier or more embarrassing than that?

I think I agree that what drives this stuff is marketing--another example of what goes wrong when things are produced for sale instead of for plain old use. But I'm not quite as pessimistic that we can't become principled consumers, and begin to counter-act the effects.

A revolution may only bring a new set of problems that we don't know how to deal with, the same way saftey measures after an accident have been found merely to introduce new unknown variables to produce new accidents. On the other hand if we'd just trust ourselves, from one generation to the next, we'd be better off learning how to deal, and try to pass that along as best we can. Can you trust a kid who is holding his crotch and dancing wildly?

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Alice
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 11:53 AM

Have any of you seen the Maury talk show? It is an endless stream of young girls, 9, 10, 11, 12, coming out with the expressed desire to be professional strippers, bragging about the sex they have, how much, how often and how promiscuously, bragging that guys give them lots of attention, and thinking that being a sex object is cool. They didn't come up with these ideas on their own, and they didn't get it from their parents who have dragged them to that show as a last resort in getting their kids back. There is something completely different about this epidemic of sexualized children compared to the typical rebellion of each young generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 12:01 PM

have you thought that those kids and their families get trips to new york or wherever and room and board while they are there?

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Alice
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 12:18 PM

Their compensation is beside the point. The fact is that portraying these kids and their self degredation is now common tv entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:34 PM

Alice, I think the only thing that's different is it gets harder to appall anyone, and get their attention. They certainly did get it from their parents, maybe not directly, but in that their parents watch crap like the Maury show and are appalled enough to find it interesting. It's not really interesting--so what? Kids wanting to act out "grown up" isn't a new epidemic. Turn it off. A pretty good show like My So-Called Life goes off the air, and garbage like Maury is still on--what does that tell you? They get it from their parents because their parents will pay attention to it.

Some of the nicest people I ever knew were young slutty, promiscuous girls, when I was a young messed-up kid myself. They are my tribe, the people I knew best and think I understood. Most were really painfully bright and sensitive kids, trying to build a protective shell by being casual about intimacy. They had to work at it, to try to learn to be cold, while it seemed to come naturally to "normal well-adjusted" kids. You know--the normal ones that found it easy to be mean as snakes, to betray friendships, and all that. The really appalling stuff is still the same old story.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: C-flat
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:49 PM

I think Fred makes a very important point about the repressed sexuality of past generations.I certainly never saw my parents undressed or remember any conversation of a sexual nature. I'm not sure that it did me any harm, that is to say, I don't think I'm driven to seek out sexual thrills in places I shouldn't, but judging from the spam that comes to my e-mail adress there's a lot of people that do. That sort of supression can be dangerous to some folk, depending on their pyscological make-up and although my earlier comments here may suggest I'm a little prudish where my daughter is concerned, I've no problem with open discussion about sex, nor do I worry about my daughter seeing me take a shower. In that respect I would rather she was more comfortable about seeing the human form than my generation. I think it's the allusion to sexual acts that make me uncomfortable when it's directed at very young children.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:16 PM

I think there is such a thing as childhood innocense, but unfortunately it's not guaranteed to every child. Nor is the length of time that it lasts consistant from child to child. My kids both enjoy today's popular music and have their share of CD's etc. although we do keep tabs on what is in their collection. For a lot of the reasons already talked about in this thread, I make a special point to expose my kids to other styles and they have responded very positively. They have come out to hear me play and they have requests for songs that they like and even "borrow" my CD's from time to time.

I think rather than just trying to dictate what music your kids listen to or are permitted to own, we should concentrate on helping them make the right choices. Yeah, putting your foot down is important but explaining why and coming to an understanding with yuour kids needs to be part of that.

Too many parents let their kids do whatever they want because they can't or won't say no. I hate to hear a parent say, "Well, that's what all the other kids are listening to, what am I gonna do?" I usually like to quote that incredibly smart woman that I knew since I was just a kid (ya know, my Mom!) when she would say, "Well if all of the other parents threw their kids off a tall building, would you?" I loved her!!!

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM

Hardi and I hauled instruments over to a local roadside diner that is usually nearly empty from 7:30 PM till they close at 9. They'd said it would be OK to jam there. We've been working on ideas for kids' songs to do a spring kids & families concert... so we took all our songbooks over there that we had been thinking about getting songs from, and ran through about 50 pieces to see if they were working for us. Clementine, All the Pretty Little Horses, Bold Fisherman, Dan Tucker, and so forth.

One family came in and sat right next to us, looking kinda sour. I asked if we were disturbing their dinner. The dad brightened up immediately and said, "Is that what's called FOLK music?" Well, yeah, we answered. "See?" he said to his kids. "I told you so! THAT's what I used to sing and listen to when I was your age! And in school, too!" He then proceeded to tell us how awful the current school music is for kids. And the kids and their folks soaked all this up.

Then an older group (retiree+ in age) came up from the back of the place and not only oooh'd and ahhhh'd us, they hired us for two paying gigs! To play all that "wonderful old stuff we never hear anymore."

Where are the kids? Hiding inside the grownups, and sitting beside them. Waiting. For all of US. Waiting for us to just start some songs they KNOW.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:13 PM

Better to light one candle, as the saying goes.

Sooner or later, and probably sooner than later, the wheel is going to turn. The imporant thing is to try to make sure that, when it does, it won't be the good things that have come over the past couple of generations that get snuffed out. Because that has normally been the way it hapens, whichever way the wheel turns.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:38 PM

As others on this thread, I may have overstated my point of view. I'm rather conservative with my kids, they are more sheltered than many of their friends. They've never seen any shag-stuff like Austin Powers, and they like pretty good things. Sometimes having an older sibling exposes some kids to more sex stuff earlier, or simply watching movies their parents like too, and I'm not inclined to judge those families simply because my situation is different. Trying to shelter them entirely is a losing battle, trying to be there with them and take things as they come is the best I know to do. Commercials for toys are still the issue in our house.

On one extreme, nudists hope to desensitize, on another, people want to cover up, and shelter their kids, maybe inadvertently mystifying and making sexuality all the more interesting. I'm somewhere in the middle. Kids are hitting puberty earlier, but the age of social maturity gets set back later and later--what is it? around forty? It's a problem.

But although my life has become more settled, I still identify with messed-up kids, feel compelled to defend young slutty girls, on principle, not because it isn't ever sad and hurtful, but because they are just as often good and nice people as anyone else. Maybe more so--but I doubt Maury Povitch ever does shows about kids who are just plain assholes. One thing that always saddens me is to meet bright educated People Who Never Learned Anything They Weren't Supposed To. Next on Maury.

I agree with Susan completely, trying to provide something better is a good thing. I doubt there's anything more true to be said about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: An Croenen
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:44 PM

Let's give some credit to the kids. You need to start worrying when it is clear that they sing they want sex on the beach and they actually mean what they sing. We don't live in a rough area, which admittedly makes our job as parents a lot easier. But isn't there such a thing as a middle way? Sheltering them off completely won't be very good for them, and dayly hypnosis in front of the telly wont be either. They will be exposed to many unwanted aspects of their world, and it's our job to expose them to as many good ones as we possibly can. Forcefeeding them any type of music surely wouldn't be beneficial. But they will walk into your room while your music is playing and overtly or covertly be interested in what you are listening to - at least until they have made their own judgement about it. My hope for my children is that they will be able to encompass many layers of culture and see them for what they are. As for childrens clothes: shop around!

An

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Tinker
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 06:58 PM

We had a small group of teenagers over last month and they actually asked to borrow a guitar. When I brought it down stairs the young lady smiled and said, " Remember in 3rd grade when you came and sang those old songs (Child Ballads) when we studied knights and stuff?? I really liked that song about the really young boy who married the twenty year old (Trees They Do Grow High). It was really cool and I learnt to play." Ya never know....

Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 05:28 AM

. Can you trust a kid who is holding his crotch and dancing wildly?

Probably - after all, children are natural imitators and mimics. It's the ADULTS who grab their crotch and dance wildly that I trust as far as I could comfortably spit a rat.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 08:46 AM

Of course if you've just been kicked there it might be a bit different.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: GUEST,Visiting Sue
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 02:31 PM

I'm just checking out Mudcat and loved this discussion. I've spent the last few years living with my sister and her kids, a girl 12 and a boy 9. I've always tried to expose them to good music. It's OK if they listen to crap with their friends. I just hate it when the ONLY music kids are familiar with is pop crap designed to sell them advertiser's dreams. They're pretty sharp. I've told them what advertisers are up to. Kids don't have filters and they look to us to develop them. These two are pretty sharp and open-minded and both have a great sense of music. They can also sing along to a lot of pop songs. But they're critical and aware to a reasonable extent that there are huge industries out there who are experts at manipulating them into buying images and therefore buying products. So far, they're pretty cool kids.

It's the same as junk food. If you give them interesting, nutritious home made food, they develop broader tastes and don't have as much room in their stomachs for junk food. Forbid them to have junk food and they just want it more.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: C-flat
Date: 07 Sep 02 - 07:45 PM

Nice of you to drop by Sue. I've also enjoyed the interesting comments here too, which is why I keep coming back to Mudcat for my daily fix.
Thanks to everyone for their input, I think the answer is in there, mixed in with the usual dose of good humour and common sense that prevails on this site.
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: lady penelope
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 09:57 AM

I think kids are pretty intelligent and will make apropriate desicions most of the time ( well everyone makes mistakes sometimes...) so long as they have enough information.

In Britain, especially, you have a pop culture which uses sex to sell anything and everything, mostly with no objections from parents. At the same time you have large groups of parents insisting that their children willnot learn about sex or repoduction as this will aid the loss of their innocense. Then they wonder why Britain has one of the highest under age pregnancy rates in the world!

If I was a kid, I'd be confused!

Other than that I don't think things have really changed from when I was a kid to now. Kids are now interested in stuff that wasn't even invented when I was a kid ( i.e. home computers etc. ) this of course means that they're going to spend less time outdoors, even if their parents periodically throw them outside.

For kids that live in cities like London, traffic is a problem. When I was a kid, we mostly played at the bottom of our street ( especially during term time ) every day. At the weekend you'd go up the park ( I lived round the corner from Hampstead Heath, a rather large park ) play round the ponds, on the swings in the woods etc.

But now there is nowhere to play in the street. There are cars parked solidly up and down both sides of the street ( it's not a very wide street, three small cars across ) and the frequency of cars driving down the street would make it impossible to play anything. The street I live in now has room enough, but the speed at which people drive down the road would make it suicidal for anyone to attempt running around daft . This means that the only places left to play are generally a reasonable distance away. It becomes inconvinient to go play, except for at weekends. Which kids still do, but it becomes much more of a supervised outing than the romp it was when I was young. Sigh! I think I was able to be much more independant when I was young than a lot kids are these days, I think that's sad.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Where did the children go?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Sep 02 - 02:48 PM

Very true Lady P, I would roam all over my village when I was growing up... Bratling is lucky if she's allowed to the corner shop alone.... it isn't that I fear the paedophile or the pervert, it's the mad boy racers, one of whom not so long ago collided with another car and mounted the pavement, taking out the enitre bay window of the house on the corner. I don't want her to be run over on the pavement.

LTS