BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA

Subject: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:27 PM

Most anyone who can look me in the eye and say their mom did not once loose it and swat you as Madlyne Toogood did her daughter (leaving no mark by the way...) well a lot of you would be not telling the truth. Fact is, that she is being prociscuted for the crime of being an Irish Traveller in the United States, under the feet of the Statue of Liberty after the welcome to the poor, hungry and tiered, there is a wee sign that says no dogs or Gypsies... and it is still bloody there. Call your local press and ask why in a reported child abuse case, where there was no abuse, is the news interviewing cops from fraud units? It is because after the crime of driving while Black, the next most prosicuted crime, is the crime of a Rom, or Pave or Romanichale breathing the air of a free nation. Larry

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:34 PM

Ahhhh, I did wonder, Lorcan. Actually, with the name TooGood, I thought she was probably American Indian but what you say makes sense too. I don't know how many wooden spoons I broke over Bubba's butt, but it was several. I also remember whacking his butt in public more than once, but I never ever hit either one of them anywhere but on the butt. Never shook them either. Never beat them when they were strapped down and couldn't run away (which I did let them do--enuf is enuf.) The last time I smacked either one of them was when each was about 6. One is 24 now, the other 17.

As usual with most things I am of two minds about corporal punishment..........(I am a Libra after all)

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Gypsy
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:42 PM

WEeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllll..........I agree that we have gone too far in the other direction. But having known many people who were abused as children, i almost think it is better to err on the side of caution. And, i have never seen a child behave better by being struck. Usually exacerbates the situation.....

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM

Mine did, Gypsy. What I whacked them for they never did again. Stopped throwing tantrums in public too. Ask either of them if they were "abused" and I'll bet they say no.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:48 PM

Larry,

I have to step away from this one. Any security people of any stripe, viewing that tape, would go after this woman. It does her no good to go around saying she is guilty of beating her child on national TV even tho' the Dr. is saying no marks are evident. ( Altho' it was unclear what his answer ment, Marks from this beating or marks from presumed previous beatings) AS to procecution only because they are Travellers? I dunno....

I'll steo away until I have a lot more information than what is out there now.

Don

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:59 PM

Hey, Larry: Do you think when they looked at the video tape they said, "Hey, she's Irish, let's get her?" That is beyond my imagination.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:14 AM

Larry: I don't think they took into account the ladie's national origin. Surely you agree that just viewing that tape is pretty damaging to the lady I think.

Sorcha: I guess it's a good thing there were no hidden cameras when our kids were little. I never abused them, but didn't hesitate to give them a swat if the misbehaved. They all three are adults now, and none the worse for it.

No question about it though, any parent today that disciplines their child in public is living dangerously.

DougR

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:17 AM

What is new about gypsies? What is new to me is the name travelers which I caught wind of first in Boston but have not heard of again till now.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:17 AM

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

When in Ireland, on Good Friday, don't expect to drink in a pub.

When in American, don't beat your child in public.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:07 AM

I think there's a difference between a spanking and a beating. Whacking your kid with an open hand while s/he bends over the bed is hardly abuse; a scraped knee hurts more.

From what I saw of the videotape, that wasn't in the "spanking" category. Nor did I have any clue she was anything but born American when I saw her interviewed -- I think the cry of discrimination in unwarranted here. She's not wearing an "ethnic" sign.

I still haven't figured out what the kid's transgression was supposed to be. But with no prior evidence of abuse, anger management classes are probably the most fair and positive action to take. Unfortunately, like all Mom's who get caught in the public eye being human, she is likely to pay a stiff price, and the child as well. CPS will be under pressure to remove the kids from their "unfit" mother, whether she is or not.

A father beats his kids bloody and senseless and the police hardly respond to the 911 call. Mom beats her kids once and it's a sign of how the modern family is falling apart. (Or so the spin went on the news here.)

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:22 AM

My mother had an uncontrollable temper and so I was an 'abused' child. I don't think it has made me any more violent as an adult. Even though I must admit that, at the age of 15, I came within an inch of killing her. But that was self protection. And furthermore, although she was always excessive and violent, there were many times when I deserved SOME kind of punishment. The majority of people who ever lived had corporeal punishment as children. Most of them did OK. One last point, psychology is not and CANNOT EVER BE a science as practiced today. Remember, these are the ones who insisted 'recovered memory syndrome' was real. And falsely sent dozens of people to prison; the ones who murdered a little girl 'rebirthing' her.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Keevan6
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:03 AM

InOBU.....as an American, I try to be as open minded as I can about the concerns and feelings of our bretheren and compatriots from other countries. So I ask you to try to keep in mind(hopefully with an open heart) not to judge all of us Americans by what you see and hear from our government, and press. The American government and press have (in my opinion) formed themselves into some kind of beast of their own devising, and they often do not agree with most of the American people. It seems to me lately, that the government and the presses are hell bent on pursuing their own agendas, and do not care what many Americans think or feel. Oh they make a big show of pretending to be concerned about the needs of the many, but in reality they ultimately do what they think is "good for the people" instead of putting it to a vote of the people. Instead of a Democracy "for the people, by the people.", it has sorta warped itself into "for the government, by the government."

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM

Here in the UK we have both Romany and Travellers. Romany/true gypsies are believed to the descendants of Indian travelling musicians, and speak a language related to Hindi.

Many travellers are not Romany but Irish 'tinkers', who seem to have the right to come to the UK, be provided at our expense with council-run sites and cash benefits, and then terrorise those who are subsidising them.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:20 AM

Well, I see there are some misconceptions here, first of all Pavane, Irish Travellers came to the us in the terror years of the Irish Famine, which your government used as a tool of genocide in our nation... They are not on the dole here, but have been gainfully employed since they were instrumental in care of horses during the Civil War. They are much more of a cultureal isolate in the US, and are generally small contractors and painters. "TINKERS!" Same on you! Tinkers are (like Kalderash or Coppersmith Roma - eastern European Gypsies) Travellers or Pavees who work mettal, like the "Tinker Devlins" the family of Buradette Develin McAlsiky. Not every Pavee is a Tinker, which has become a durogatory term for Travellers.
We Roma were not travelling Indian musicians, lingustics proves we (my mother is half Lovari) were Rajaput.
As to Ms. Toogood's identity, in the US, police and store security have racist guides to "what to do when Gypsies come to town, into stores etc..." We won a civil rights case to that effect in the North East. The fact is that I agree that slapping (her hand was open, did not punch the child) a child is not right, I don't agree with it... but the aftermath is clearly influenced by her ethnicity. Her sister was arrested, for not turning her in, the press has been using this as proof of the moral degridation of Travellers, when studdies show in the US there is much less child abuse in that community than the general population, her relitives have been threatened with being run out of towns in which they live, but this is not the story reported... All the best, Larry

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:29 AM

OH! As to Pavees being Romani... yes and no. I dissagree with Thomas Acton, the British historian, but, my theory is endorced by about three quarters of serrious Roma historians and sociologists... Acton believes the communities are completely separate in origion, I hope I am not misstating his views, if I am I applogise, I however, believe that seasonaly nomadic north Irish (for the most part) would travel for centuries to Scotland, where they would interact with Romanichales (Roma who came to England in the 13th century) intermarry, and were culturealy influenced. As a result, not only is there a conection by marriage there are lingusitic as well as cultural conections. There are many words, like Beor, for woman, which follow the same convention by which Gaelic words were converted into Scelta (the language of Travellers) where the vowles are interchanged, so the Romani word Bori for Bride, becomes Beor, or context of words changes, such as Noosh for dog, an animal that is part of the camp, is called a word almost identical to the Romani word Manoosh, fella or guy, calling your dog, hey manush, hey fella, becomes noosh. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST,rich_and_dee
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:25 AM

As I understand it, the video was shown to the police, who showed the video to a doctor, who reasoned the child could have sustained some serious injuries. Watching the tape you can't really tell if she's open-handedly swatting the kid or punching the bejeesus out of her.

The police released the video to news agencies not to necessarily arrest the woman (she was never arrested) but to locate the child to determine whether the child was seriously injured.

At no time during the search for the woman was there any mention of her ethnicity. She was the first to say she felt she'd been hunted down because she's an Irish Traveler. I imagine much of the country immediately shrugged their shoulders and said "What the heck is a traveller".

From what has been broadcast, the mom was upset after unsuccessfully trying to return a pair of jeans. Her daughter had wandered away from her and been paged twice and had been caught taking toys out of packages.

There has been no issue of her being a Traveller and I suspect there can be no issue.

As for her family, it is illegal to hamper a police investigation, which is what her family did by effectively hiding her for a weekend. As citizens of the USA, they have to abide by the law of the land.

The mom has a heavy Chicago accent. She looks like a blue-collar mid-West mom with no trace of ethnicity.

I know we've all heard the extreme cases where a child fell off a swingset and the State intervened and accused the parents of abuse. It's awful. In this instance, it looks like everyone kept the best interests of the family in mind and were forced by good sense and responsibility to locate this woman and her child to assure the child's safety.

I say give the mom an anger management class and set them on their way.

Rich

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM

InOBU, I would like to draw your attention to the following quote from Ard Mhacha

"My contention is that the idea of genocide had taken firm root in Irish political consciousness long before Mitchell published his most influential works on the subject. And it is also my contention that while genocide was not committed, what happened during and as a result of the clearances had the look of genocide to a great many Irish contemporaries. Ard Mhacha."

You state - "Well, I see there are some misconceptions here, first of all Pavane, Irish Travellers came to the us in the terror years of the Irish Famine, which your government used as a tool of genocide in our nation... "

I think what Ard Mhacha says is correct and without doubt provides the most accurate and concise summation on the subject I have ever seen written. Your statement on the otherhand is false, inflamatory and myth perpetuating.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:58 AM

I dunno, Larry. I guess I'd have to say that I haven't even been aware of the existence of Travellers in the United States, and I'd guess that most Americans have about the same lack of experience. Is that discrimination?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:22 AM

I have known Romany in the US. If I hadn't been told I would never have known they were Romany. As for Travellers, that sounds almost like a matter of opinion; kind of like whether some one from Louisiana is black or white.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST,Gimme a break
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:26 AM

According to InOBU, Madlyne Toogood is being "prociscuted" becuase she is an "Irish Traveller."

None of the news reports I've seen or read have mentioned any ethnicity. When I saw and heard her speak on TV, I didn't hear any accent that would make me think she's anything other than American. And it shouldn't make any difference anyway.

Madlyne Toogood is being prosecuted because she violently abused her child and was caught on video tape doing it.

Madlyne Toogood's lawyer has stated that the tape didn't lie and that he expects her to change her plea to guilty.

Madlyne Toogood herself has admitted her wrongdoing.

InOBU's idiotic and irrational defence of this child beater is shameful.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:22 AM

I think that Rich said it all. To claim that the woman was sought after because of prejudice and discrimination because she is an Irish Traveller makes zero sense. How can you discriminate against people when you've never even heard of the term, and the person admits that she abused her child? When I raised my two sons, they got a good whack on the rear end a few times to know that I was serious, but I drew the line at smacking them in the head. I hurt their pride more than their body. And when they needed discipline, they never got it in public. I wanted to correct them, not humiliate them. But they knew that when I took them out of a store, they were going to get it. It rarely took even a smack on the rump to straighten them out. All it took was "that look."

Jerry

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:27 AM

Absolute Total Bull Crap Larry. Shame on you!

I saw that video and it almost made me sick to my stomach. If that is how kids are normally disciplined, then what a fucking abnormal upbringing I had. You've let your ideology completely colour your common sense.

Cheers (or I'll go upside your head)

Rick

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:39 AM

You beat me to it, Rick. I saw the video, then I saw the lame "I don't beat my kid, I am ashamed that I lost it this time" defense. My whole career has been a study in human behaviour. I am told that this woman was frustrated from not being able to get a cash refund in the store she was in. The next thing we see is a happy kid bouncing up to the car, the woman putting her in and looking around, then without warning she shakes and hits the child, while in an rage. The fact that she left no marks has absolutely no bearing whatever. The facts are that a wrong move in this state of mind could have resulted in the death of this child. This type of behaviour is not a one time thing. It is the result of a lifetime of not knowing how to deal with anger. And it is what results in the tragedies that we continually read about. When confronted with things that these folks can't control, they strike out at the most vulnerable thing they can. Kids, sometimes spouses, whatever. Taking this child out of her control is the correct thing to do. She must earn her way back.

This has nothing to do with discrimination against any group. It is about saving a child. Period.

Mick

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:48 AM

I try to think how the authorities SHOULD have reacted to a video of a woman beating a kid vs. what DID happen, and I can't come up with any differences.

Larry, you appear to saying child abuse is acceptable and that the authorities were wrong for intervening. I read this last night and had a hard time believing you would go to such lengths to fabricate an issue so as to allow yourself to see ethnic persecution here. I didn't know what to say. You're so concerned with the rights of a favorite group that you're dismissing other people's, and my impression is that kid just doesn't matter to you.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Grab
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:09 PM

Nope, neither of my parents ever hit me repeatedly round the head. Nor did my friends' parents do it to them, to my knowledge.

Be honest, can you tell from the video footage that she is ethnically an Irish traveller? If so, how?

Re "the story not reported", do you have anywhere that does tell this story? Or are all the newspapers, all the police, all the government officials and everyone else in this big conspiracy together?

Graham.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:12 PM

Hooray Rick, Big Mick and Jeri for telling it like it is! I completely share your views! I guess if Jeffrey Daumer had been a "traveller" he really wouldn't have been guilty, just picked on because of his ethnicity?

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:52 PM

She used the kid's head for a punching bag. I don't care where you're from, that's just not tolerable. The child could have been in serious danger. Thankfully, that isn't the case - but if the child had died, and no one had done anything, what then?

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:57 PM

I have nothing but praise for the intervenors. This case had nothing to do with discrimination, but with abuse of a child who could not fight back.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:09 PM

Guest Rich and Dee said

At no time during the search for the woman was there any mention of her ethnicity. She was the first to say she felt she'd been hunted down because she's an Irish Traveler. I imagine much of the country immediately shrugged their shoulders and said "What the heck is a traveller".

From what has been broadcast, the mom was upset after unsuccessfully trying to return a pair of jeans. Her daughter had wandered away from her and been paged twice and had been caught taking toys out of packages.

There has been no issue of her being a Traveller and I suspect there can be no issue.

As for her family, it is illegal to hamper a police investigation, which is what her family did by effectively hiding her for a weekend. As citizens of the USA, they have to abide by the law of the land.

The mom has a heavy Chicago accent. She looks like a blue-collar mid-West mom with no trace of ethnicity.

This strikes me as a rather cockeyed defense of the press and the police. Of course there was the issue of her being a Traveller. And since when does a "blue collar mid-West mom" constitute "no ethnicity?" It tells me that writer of the post is a blue collar white middle-class individual who sees all else as "other" and him or herself as ethnically at the center of the world. (It is from this position that Ugly Americans are born.)

Am I the only one who remembers my mother standing conspicuously in the yard watching very carefully as the gypsy who had approached the house looking for work walked down the street, making sure that nothing was broken or stolen as payback for not accepting the offer of "work?" Gypsies and Travellers have been in the U.S. for ages. I expect today I'd do the same thing my mom did. Effective peddlar licenses have buffered a lot of urban dwellers over the years, but we lived out in the county where it was open season on homeowners when the gypsies came through. We are creatures of our environments, and while I'd like to say I'm accepting of groups unlike my own, I'm also cautious and have to say that today I still wouldn't turn my back on Travellers.

Down here in Fort Worth the first thing out of the newscasters' mouths were the name "Gorman" and the term "Traveller" while the mother was being sought. Personally, I don't expect her to stick around for her day in court, she'll vanish. The store probably refused to take the jeans because they thought they were stolen. Perhaps they have some sort of "heads up" system for recognizing (by name) folks who regularly come in and try to sell stolen goods back to the store, but regardless of the outcome in the store, it was no reason to strike as she did a child strapped into a carseat. If people are cautious because of her affiliations with Travellers, it's because of her ability to vanish with the support of a close-knit culture that is haphazard about how they treat their children. She will vanish and her children will probably vanish with her.

My mother was a social worker in Washington State, in Child Protective Services, and one group she was occasionally called about by area schools were the gypsy children. I don't recall the exact nature of the problems the schools reported, except that the children always vanished before the state had time to intervene in the way the schools wished.

I wish I had a little more time to make this more sensible myself, but I've probably said enough.

SRS (Still liberal, but nobody's fool)

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:30 PM

Some of the postings in this thread may be of interest to those who would like to know more about the Roma in America. Of particular interest might be Aine's postings, esp. her first. I offer this only as a matter of interest and education, not as any comment on the subject of this thread. I haven't seen the video and do not feel qualified to comment.

kat

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:32 PM

Paranoia runs deep! What BS! To try to push the blame to the woman being a Traveler instead of a disturbed individual is ridiculous. If the claim that "Most anyone who can look me in the eye and say their mom did not once loose it and swat you as Madlyne Toogood did her daughter (leaving no mark by the way...) well a lot of you would be not telling the truth" were true, then that would explain why there are so many screwed up people in this world. Too many blows to the head! There is no excuse for hitting a child in that manner, and to confuse that with punishment is insane.

No marks? Well that is a blessing. However if you check with physicians, you can sustain serious injuries without having a mark on a body. Victims of spousal abuse have shown that.

I love it when the conspirists try to create issues that don't exist. It's always the USA trying to get rid of the little guy! Stick to chasing flying saucers!

That said, I do feel for the woman. She obviously has a severe problem if she could treat her child in that manner. I hope she gets help and that the child will be out of harms way.

As the saying goes, why is that you have to get a license to own a dog or a cat but anyone can be a parent?

ROn

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM

I still prefer to challenge the original predicate on which this thread is premised. Our good friend, Larry, is just plain off base on this.

We certainly could have a long and interesting debate on the "tinkers", "gypsies", "travellers", etc. I also live in an area that experiences summertime visits by folks classified this way. I work as a union organizer in an industry that issues the annual alert to its cashiers about those who would run money changing scams on overworked cashiers. I believe I could probably argue both sides of this one very effectively.

But this case isn't about Traveller descrimination, no matter how hard INOBU tries to make it that. It is about a child, an innocent, being the object of a parent's frustration. She got caught, and thank God she did.

I am afraid, friend Larry, that you are guilty as charged with letting your personal cause and conviction cloud your sense of right and wrong. Rick hit it dead on the head.

Mick

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM

Slight thread slide (not quite a drift)

Larry,

"...We Roma were not travelling Indian musicians, lingustics proves we (my mother is half Lovari) were Rajaput..."

Rajputs are from Rajistan, Rajistan is in India.
As I see it, your statement of liguistic roots merely re-inforces the Indian musician theory.

Walrus

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:51 PM

inOBU, I accept that I am not familiar with the detailed ancestry of every family of 'gypsies', but understand that they originated in an area which we now call 'India'.

I was trying to point out that some 'travellers' appear to have no 'Romany' roots, and are in the UK to follow their own trades, which include scrap metal dealing and apparently, in some cases, theft.

'Tinker' is an occupation rather than an ethnic division, although I agree that it has become a derogatory term in some circumstances, possibly because of the above.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST,Another Guest
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:58 PM

As the child of a mother who beat me in a very similar manner to that in the video, I must say that I did not have children for that reason nor have any of my siblings had children. My mother had a terrible "temper" and I had bruises under my arms all the time. I have a "temper" that I must watch all the time. The doctor says these are related to female hormones, but I don't know.

Please help this little girl before she is scarred for life, if not physically then psychologically. The mother has her own issues and should be working on those rather than raising a child. I know from my friends who are parents that when you "loose it," you must step back and count to ten and count to ten again until you have calmed down enough to behave as a rational human being.

HITTING A CHILD IS NEVER RIGHT!

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM

I'm with Joe Offer on this. Never, ever knew there were any Irish Travellers living here in the U.S. After Joe, I'm with Mick and Rick also.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:28 PM

Whoa, just found this one. I'm in the Northeast, and no one ever mentioned she was a traveler on the news here, nor on CNN if I recall. While the Police may have "profiled" her and kept a close eye on her because she is a Traveler (if we are to believe Stilly River Stage about how it works in Texas) in the end she did the crime. It's like a thief complaining that the cops only caught him red-handed because they were looking at him due to his ethnicity. I feel sympathy for the honest members of the ethnicity who are unfairly scrutinized, but less bad for the criminals who get caught because of the scrutiny.

On the flip side of this issue, though, I think the crucial point is that you could not see her hands in the video. In other words, we don't know if she was slapping, punching or shaking the child. That's why the question of "marks" was crucial. The seriousness of her offense was at stake.

As it is, I don't think there is enough evidence for a child to be separated from her mother. Legally, Big Mick, you can't just say "this type of behaviour is not a one-time thing," you have to show that THIS woman has a pattern of abusing her child, and we simply have no evidence. Given that we don't know if she was slapping, punching or simply shaking, we'd be saying "any parent who ever slaps or shakes her child should have that child taken away." Under this rule, I would have been a foster child and probably had a much worse life than I've had. Thus, I can't support anything more serious than probation and an anger management class.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:32 PM

Nerd,

Again, marks are not crucial. Certain blows will not create visible marks. An examination is needed, and luckily the examination did not show any physical harm. Psychological may be another story, and in either case it is irrelevant. Intent to harm is what was caught on tape.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:51 PM

I'm Irish American and I have never heard of Irish travelers in America..which of course means diddly. I think we have as a society been far too tolerant, to the point of idolizing them,of the way some mothers treat their children. She's a woman, she can do no wrong; she is a mother and one step away from a saint syndrome. This mother and many others need to know they will be watched closely and forever, and somehow should be kept from having more children. And where is the father? I know it is hard to be the other parent when one is a rampager, but we have to hold them both accountable. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:54 PM

There is a fairly large community of "travellers" living in North Augusta, S.C. To characterize this as an "ethnic" issue is the most outragious thing I have ever heard. I guess if Jeffrey Dahmer had been a traveller, his atrocities would have been pointed out and he would have been picked on because he was a traveller? give me a break! Hooray for Rick! You speak for me, and I hope anyone with an ounce of logic and reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:07 PM

Ron:

Once again, let me say that my own mother, whom I love, smacked me and my brother around a bit, and we are both useful and productive members of society far better off than people who are taken away by Child Protective Services and go through the foster care system. Though we may have some issues, I don't think the psychological effects of being smacked were serious. So it would be counter productive to over-react to this, IMHO.

If physical damage is the issue, marks ARE important. It's true that "certain blows will not leave visible marks," but physical marks are one prime indicator of injury. Try to tell a doctor that the absence of marks is irrelevant and she'll laugh at you. It's very relevant, though it may not be the whole story. In any case, as you say, the examination showed that the child had NOT sustained any serious injury.

If psychological damage is the issue, it would probably be far more damaging to take her away, unless we can show a pattern of abuse that goes beyond this one incident.

Intent to harm was caught on tape? I must have missed that part--you must have one of those high definition TVs. In fact, I didn't think you could catch an intent on videotape. What was caught was a mom smacking around her child. Anything else, including supposed motives, intentions and, yes, even ethnic discrimination, is being read into it by outside interpreters.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM

Sorry, Larry. I'm with Mick, Rick, Jeri and the others on this one. The mother is a woman who beat the crap out of her kid strapped in a car seat - defenseless. She was caught on tape, dead-to-rights. Her ethnic background doesn't matter, she must be made accountable for actions, and to defend her actions based on an ethnic background is pig-headed.

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:19 PM

Add my name to those who thought that Gypsies existed only to come over to your table and play a romantic violin piece. I thought the women all looked like Rhonda Fleming or Arlene Dahl and never wore anything but off the shoulder (Peasant) blouses with their waists pinched tight.

I grew up in southern Wisconsin and never heard of gypsies in our area (or in the whole country, for that matter.) In terms of prejudice and discrimination, they didn't even make the top twenty.

The assumption that everyone remembers when the Gypsies were coming to town is completely erroneous. You might even say that it's wrong.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:38 PM

Nerd, if you considered what you saw a "smack" I am shocked. If you received similar "smacks" as a child, you were abused. What we saw on videotape was not a "smack". Perhaps your set needs some adjustment, or a dose of reality.

I still disagree with you about the marks and I've met victims of spousal abuse who tell you the same, but again you miss the point. The child was not hurt but the blows could have caused serious damage. If I pull out a gun and pull the trigger but the bullet misses you, does that mean I wasn't trying to kill you? Would you be crying "poor Ron, another guy from NJ being singled out for something he didn't do?" No harm, no foul does not work in this case.

Also, thank you for jumping on my mistake of saying that you can catch intent on videotape. I guess your eyes are pretty good!

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:01 PM

My my my, alot of folks are missing the point. 1. The child was not only taken from HER but taken from the TRAVELLER comunity! It is an internationaly accepted wrong to separate a child from a close kinship group like Indians or Roma, or Pavees and place that child with a group which discriminates against that child. Even if the family is liberal and not anti Traveller, the message it sends the child is that your people are not equal. As to the reporting...
"Beating suspect: 'I'm not a monster' Melody Mcdonald Star-Telegram Staff Writer Standing outside the county jail in South Bend, Ind., a Fort Worth-based Irish Traveller tearfully proclaimed that she is "not a monster" despite the videotaped image of her slapping and punching her 4-year-old daughter. Freed on bail Saturday after surrendering to authorities, Madelyne Toogood, 25, broke down during a nationally televised news conference over the loss of her daughter, who has temporarily been placed with foster parents. "They shouldn't have taken her," Toogood cried, referring to Child Protective Services. "They shouldn't have did this. ... I'm not a monster." With her hair changed from blond to brown since the day she was captured on videotape outside a department store, Toogood said her little girl shouldn't be punished for her mistake. "No one has the right to strike a child," Toogood said. "I'm paying for it. My entire family is paying for it. "Martha is my child. I think she is wonderful. ... I would lay my life down for her." Toogood, also known as Madelyne Gorman, surrendered to authorities about 4:30 p.m. Saturday. She arrived at the Mishawaka, Ind., police station in a convoy of vehicles that carried her Houston-based attorney Steven Rocket Rosen and her daughter. Authorities said the child was being examined by a doctor and appeared to be in good condition. The child "is a neat human being and seems to be fine," Christopher Toth, the prosecuting attorney of St. Joseph County, said Saturday in a press conference. Authorities said Toogood, who cooperated with investigators during an interview, was booked into the county jail and released after posting $5,000 bail. Prosecutors had initially requested a $50,000 bond because of her transient history. Officials said Child Protective Services will temporarily place the child with another family, a decision that clearly upset Toogood. The woman told reporters that she has been a mother since she was 19 and has three children, and that nothing like this has "ever happened before." She said she has 50 family members, many of whom have permanent residences, who could care for her child. Her attorney also criticized the girl's temporary placement with another family, saying that the Toogood family was tight-knit and traumatized by the decision. "To me, this is very detrimental, very psychologically detrimental, bordering on abusive," Rosen said. He said his client was angry because her child had misbehaved in the department store, but said he would not defend the attack. "It's clear here the young lady lost her temper," he said. "I'm not here to say she's not guilty. ... She committed a shameful act. She shall be punished." Indiana authorities issued an arrest warrant Friday afternoon for Toogood after charging her with battery of a child, a felony punishable by up to three years in prison. Authorities had been searching for Toogood and her daughter since Sept. 13, when the mother was captured on a videotape outside a Kohl's department store in Mishawaka. In the video, Toogood is seen placing her daughter in a sport utility vehicle, then slapping, punching and shaking the girl for several seconds. The episode occurred after the woman left the store angry over being refused a cash refund, authorities said. Authorities feared that the child might have been seriously injured, but they were unable to locate her or her mother. On Wednesday, the Mishawaka Police Department began distributing copies of the tape to the media, asking for the public's help in finding her. Toogood's sister, 31-year-old Margaret Daley, who authorities say was with her at the store, was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor count of failure to report child abuse and a felony count of assisting a criminal. She was released Friday after posting $2,150 bail. Toogood and Daley are affiliated with an Irish Traveller group in Texas known as the Greenhorn Carrolls, a close-knit family that often spends the winters at campgrounds in White Settlement, Fort Worth and Haltom City. During the summer, the group travels north seeking temporary work, such as asphalt paving, roofing and painting. While the men work, the women often frequent malls, beauty salons and tanning salons. Law enforcement authorities say that some Irish Travellers are experienced con artists, but that many are law-abiding citizens. Joe Livingston, a South Carolina-based expert on Travellers, said many are masters of "illusion and confusion," often obtaining fictitious driver's licenses and identification cards and using multiple home addresses. Toogood -- who under both names has identification cards and driver's licenses from numerous states, and several addresses in Fort Worth and elsewhere -- has warrants out for her arrest in Fort Worth and White Settlement. White Settlement issued a warrant on April 9 after she failed to pay a $202 traffic ticket for having no driver's license. In May, Fort Worth police issued another warrant for her arrest after she failed to appear in court to face theft charges stemming from a March 27 incident at a Kohl's store here. Dirk Moore, a Texas member of the National Association of Bunco Investigators who has investigated the Travellers for 12 years, said Saturday that he was surprised that Toogood surrendered. "I figured she would disappear, and someone would find her in five or six years when they ran her fingerprints," Moore said. "I'm surprised she turned herself in, and I'm surprised she brought the little girl with her." Moore said he was not surprised, however, that she sought out a prominent attorney to help her. "That is not a surprise," he said. "Most Travellers are fairly wealthy, and it is not uncommon for them to hire prominent attorneys to handle major cases -- and ones that have been successful in defending their clients. "They are able to afford the best." This article contains material from the Associated Press. "
The contention that all travellers are rich is nonsence, that they are all involved is liable, that you interview anti Fraud cops about a child slapping case is discrimination.
Cheers back at ya Rick!
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM

PS How about the next time a Black American slapps her kid we get an expert on drug addiction to comment, now anyone who does not see the bigotry in that, and overlooks the bigotry in the reporting above, should spend some quiet time thinking.... Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:17 PM

she is being prociscuted for the crime of being an Irish Traveller in the United States

That is from your opening post, Larry. It is wrong. She is being prosecuted for strapping the child in a seat, and then slapping and shaking the child in a very dangerous way. The contention that she should be given to the Traveller community also misses the point, and IMHO, is an attempt at obfuscation. You are attempting to turn this into a discrimination case. It is not. It is about abuse, pure and simple. I would prefer that the authorities determine that they are not releasing the child into a dangerous situation. I would prefer that the system go its normal route, with testimony from Grandparents, or other interested relatives, or members of the community, whereby they demonstrate to advocates on behalf of the child, why they are the best qualified. Perhaps the family is the best suited, but maybe not. Let it work.

I say again, this isn't a case of us versus them. It is about a defenseless child. It is NOT about whose Mother beat who, and did we survive it OK. It is about THIS Mother getting caught, and once that occurred the system must take over in the interest of the child. That is what a thinking, progressive society does.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:19 PM

Larry,

It isn't the reporting, it is the "expert" that shows bias. However, it still isn't the core of this issue. In this country there are laws established to protect the welfare of the child. It is very true that the laws can be excessive and a child can pulled from a parent under suspicion of abuse... and that goes for a parent of any hue or nationality.

As for your reference to a "black American" slapping her child, if that parent was wanted on drug charges wouldn't a drug expert comment? It seems that Toogood had at least two outstanding warrants and skipped a hearing. Hmmm, wouldn't this seem to justify speaking to an "expert"? The problem hear is that the police are the ones manipulating the media. If they feed the media information about warrants and "travelers", the media tries to get answers to questions that we all have. If you read this thread you will see that many were not aware that Travelers exist in this country.

By the way Larry, if you check your last sentence it looks like you made the same mistakes. You stated "The contention that all travellers are rich is nonsence, that they are all involved is liable, that you interview anti Fraud cops about a child slapping case is discrimination. " Well if you read the article that you posted, there is no assumption made that ALL Travelers are rich nor that all were involved. The facts that you quoted do mention her history of being involved in fraud cases so yes, it is justified and no it is not discrimination.

Of course there is discrimination and it is wrong, but lets not start fires where none existed before.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:21 PM

Okay, Ron. maybe I was a little obnoxious in my post. Sorry about that :-)

But it's really not so shocking that I was "abused" in your terms. It is in the background of many, many ethnic groups in America to smack around children when they misbehave. My mom's mom used a dishtowel braided into a club! These were traditional methods of punishment brought from Europe (I remember the towel had a special Yiddish name). Many of my friends of my age have similar things in their history; one of my best friends, whose father was black, used to be smacked with a belt. I got my mother's open hand and sometimes a wooden spoon. If you think this is shocking, ask other people between thirty and fifty and you'll get lots of similar stories; the idea that hitting your kids is horrible abuse did not become popular in this country until Dr. Spock's book was a hit.

I'm not coming down on one or another side of this issue because I do think it's better not to hit your children. But I'm not willing to condemn a huge number of mothers in America who came of age prior to the 1950s and say that most of us raised by those mothers should have been taken away from them.

Finally, my point was that you could not see her hands in the video. I don't know if what I saw was a smack or not. It's all up to the interpreter to supply what wasn't in the frame. I did see shaking, I saw that there were blows, but I could not see what kind of blows they were. It could have been a bunch of smacks with the figertips, and it could have been punching with the fist. All I'm saying is that I'm not willing to gamble that foster care is a better option than leaving her with her parents based on what might have been happening outside of the frame.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:23 PM

By the way, you mention that she should be turned over to the Traveler community. Following that logic, should priests accused of being pedophiles be turned over to the church? Oh yeah, I guess that does happen.