 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Bullfrog Jones (on the road) Date: 25 Sep 02 - 06:07 AM Sorry, Larry, but you sound like the guy in the session complaining that everyone's out of tune except him! BJ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:56 AM Well, Gee Larry, it's true that I'm not being interviewed by the Associated Press, and I don't know much at all about Irish Travellers. You seem extremely committed to fighting the prejudice that must exist, even in cases where prejudice isn't the issue. I spend much of my life now moving in an inter-racial world, and enjoying it thoroughly. My gospel quartet is black, 'cept for me, my wife and I go about equally to black churches where I am usually the only white, and white churches where my wife is one of the few, if not only blacks. My wife and I have travelled throughout the Midwest, along the East Coast, much of the South and in Europe and Africa. I've walked through little fishing villages in Africa with the little kids all wanting to hold my hand, and we've gone into small towns in the south and my wife has been greeted enthusiastically and with respect. Mostly, we just enjoy people, enjoy life, and see the goodness in others. Sounds to me like you're always looking behind the curtain, ready to blow the whistle, Larry.
Last Saturday, we had a cookout at our home and everyone had a great time. No one was worried about whether someone else was prejudiced, or what others were REALLY thinking. We just had a great time.. Just people enjoying each other, whether they knew each other, or were of the same religion. Even though my quartet is obviously Christian, when we get together with family and friends, there are usually Muslims there, and when we eat, we say grace in the name of Jesus, and the Muslims add their grace in the name of Allah. Those who don't believe in God, respect those who do, and the reverse is true. If there was an Irish Traveller there (as if anyone would know unless they announced it) they would be warmly welcomed, too. I think that 95% of people are that way, including everyone on Mudcat unless proven otherwise. The 5% that are prejudiced are the ones who are miserable. And their numbers are reducing every year. If my wife and I can travel freely in this country and be greeted warmly. considering how much racial prejudice this country has had in its history,(and how easy it is to tell that we're an inter-racial couple in comparison to telling that someone is an Irish Traveller)I think it speaks well for the warmth and generosity of Americans. When my English Mudcat friends come over here to visit, they always remark on how warm and friendly people are here. You seem to see prejudiced people hiding behind every bush.
Just a warm word of welcome to our Mudcatter friends across the sea. If you are travelling over here, we're happy to have you and will do everything we can to give you a good time. Admittedly, we're a little edgy about folks visiting from the Middle East right now, but hopefully that will pass... it hasn't always been that way. I have a family member who grew up in the Middle East, and he's just Ramesh.
Folks is folks. And horses is horses. Just don't confuse their music. Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Davetnova Date: 25 Sep 02 - 04:38 AM A lot of the arguments above and many issues in th Uk seem to be directly related to Political Correctness. In the Uk we have Rastafarians effectively immune from Drug laws and Moslems apperently excused from laws governing abbatoirs and animal welfare. In many cases the first cry when any accusation or criticism is made is This is only because I'm ******(fill in ethnicity of choice) Only this morning Jack Straw declared on TV that Iraq is the only country to have invaded another in recent times. Forget Israel, Forget America, forget many others. The truth is that their are good people bad people and some who are good sometimes and bad others. The shade of my skin (which is that very pale brown colour sometimes called white) has no bearing on this nor does the culture in which I was brought up. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: katlaughing Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM For a good, educational read, may I suggest those who are interested take a look at this, previously posted by derrymacash in another thread, in which Paddy Keenan talks about growing up in Ireland as a settled Pavee. There are some very interesting facts, along with links. In the thread I linked to earlier, there is also some info on how a lot of the groups in the UK are opportunity-seeking "new agers" and should not be confused with Pavees. Generalisations about any group generally suck.:-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:44 AM I waited to get home to look at my browser for the "visited links" from a search yesterday. The pages weren't coming up for me at work and I didn't have time to fool with it. This site discusses traveler and gypsy culture and worldviews in a fair amount of depth. It's a sub-link from this site. InOBU, most groups would blanch at being accused of cultural criminal practices. As one of 1/2 Irish descent myself, I don't like to finger other Irish for their criminal acts that help define their lifestyles and culture. But Travelers are a group that apparently prides itself on it's secretive practices and ability to live by preying on the weaker members of society at large. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:02 AM I am willing to go a bit farther than Ron. Larry, I find your assertion that we "just don't get it" to be insulting. I get prejudice just fine, thanks. Seems like I have spent the best part of my 51+ years combatting it. I guess my resume probably matches up pretty well with yours. I get it fine, thank you. But you are using a very unfortunate incident to further a different cause. I could care less if the person involved is Roma, Irish, Orange, Green, Black, White, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, survivalist, mentalist or Dutch. What she did was wrong and abusive. There are sufficient indicators to create a concern for flight risk with the child. The tape certainly provides just cause for the charge, as well as to the custody issue. Your cause is just, but you are being very opportunistic on this one. I think it does a disservice to the cause you embrace. My last word on this one............unless, of course, you try to tell me I don't get it again.............hahahahahaha Mick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:41 PM Larry, we will await your return. It does seem like you are the one who doesn't get it in this case. There is no denying that anti-gypsy prejudice exists. However that is not the issue in this case, no matter what you would like us to believe. If you have some proof please let us know, I will be the first to admit I'm wrong.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:32 PM DougR: I totally agree. I just thought your wording was...shall we say, careful to avoid a common metaphor that happens also to suggest abuse. But yeah, whether you call it beating a dead horse or riding a worn-out one, I think he's probably not going to find much support here, least of all from me. SW |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:20 PM Some folks just don't get it. So, OK, we will all pretend there is no anti Gypsy prejudice anymore. I have to go off on bis. for a few days, when I get back there will be more to say. I was interviewed by the AP, due to my acknowleged expertice on the subject of Roma and Travellers, so when there is a site I will let you all know... Cheers all, Larry PS Joe Thanks for those links, great job, |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:03 PM I think the "parallel" between a generic black person "slapping" their child (why do you minimize what happened so much, Larry?) being investigated by a drug officer is totally nonsensical. I find nothing strange about why officers who investigate fraud would question someone who has been guilty of fraud in the past. And who is to say that the girl is going to be permanently placed in a foster home?... seems like you're jumping to one conclusion after another, Larry. And saying that "she is being prosecuted for the crime of being an Irish Traveller" seems to totally ignore what happened. I think you should give this one up, Larry. Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: DougR Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:29 PM Nope, I don't think it does Nerd. This thread could go to 200 posts divided into several threads the way things go here on the old Mudcat. Most of them would say more of less the same thing though, I think. I was merely trying to point out to Larry, Nerd, that his take on this particular subject, in the few posts recorded to that time, didn't appear to be getting much support. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Kim C Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:38 PM It's an internationally accepted wrong to remove a child from an abusive situation? If there's someone else in the family who can care for the child, great. If there isn't, what's the other option? Nashville's full of gypsies. There's a large family of them that's fortune-tellers. I'm not kidding. I used to sell advertising to them when I worked at the newspaper. At one time, the mother and two or three of the daughters were all running ads together. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: NicoleC Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:29 PM Larry, you're jumping to conclusions again. I gotta tell you Larry, from here it looks like you are the one making the generalizations and the stereotypes. She has outstanding warrants, multiple IDs, a transient history --uh, that's not discriminating, that's taking precautions dealing with a known lawbreaker. That you equate her history with being a traveller says that you're the one that wants her treated like an cultural product instead of an individual. She broke the law. She got caught. She'll have her day in court. CPS does not wantonly place kids in temporary homes. They go to homes of people they have checked out already. If I were the agent, and I had a family group that was KNOWN to be transient in a high profile case, you had better believe that I would put the child in a home that I was 100% sure was safe and stable. It has nothing to do with her cultural affiliation, it's S.O.P. If Grandma is a flight risk, you don't place the kid with Grandma because you want to keep tabs on the kid until the situation is resolved. Then you WANT her child treated differently because of her ethinicity. By suggesting that temporary placement with someone with a different ethnic or cultural background is wrong, I suppose you think that it would be wrong to place a black child in a white home? A Catholic child in a Protestant home? You accuse of treating them differently on one hand, then want special treatment on the other. The more I learn about this case, the more I think it's completely irrelevant what her ethinicity is. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:28 PM I actually would agree with you, Ron, that we should let the law take its course; I don't think this will result in her permanent removal from her parents unless there are other factors involved, so the system will probably work. I was just arguing against the folks who believe they already know she should be removed, based only on the tape. I also think Larry's "riding a worn out horse." DougR, does this wording mean that the subject matter of this post has made us all a little too sensitive to accept "beating a dead horse" without comment? :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: DougR Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:06 PM Larry, I think you are riding a worn out horse. In the majority of these posts, no one mentions the press in their area noting that the mother was Irish, a Traveler, or anything other than a child abuser. Climb own down off that old cayuse and give it a rest, okay? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:43 PM Nerd, No harm done :) I think we are all a bit passionate about this subject. It is very true that in "the good old days" kids were not treated with kidgloves. I am 45 and I remember getting spanked. Today it seems barbaric, back then it was normal. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the word is so screwed up. Discipline with force is merely a sign of a parent giving up. Perhaps it was Dr.Spock that figured it out. There is no justification for a person to take their aggression out on somebody so much smaller and defenseless, and especially on someone that looks up to that parent for love and guidance. It is very true that we can't see everything that is going on in the video. Unless I've missed something, I don't think she denied that she went overboard on her child. Her reaction of not thinking the punishment justifies the crime is a natural one. While her heritage maybe an "Irish Traveler", I believe she is a citizen of the United States. The laws are what they are. Fight to change the law, not fight to ignore them. Ron |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:33 PM I found some sites worth looking at:All are very enlightening. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM Nicely done, Ron. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:23 PM By the way, you mention that she should be turned over to the Traveler community. Following that logic, should priests accused of being pedophiles be turned over to the church? Oh yeah, I guess that does happen. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:21 PM Okay, Ron. maybe I was a little obnoxious in my post. Sorry about that :-) But it's really not so shocking that I was "abused" in your terms. It is in the background of many, many ethnic groups in America to smack around children when they misbehave. My mom's mom used a dishtowel braided into a club! These were traditional methods of punishment brought from Europe (I remember the towel had a special Yiddish name). Many of my friends of my age have similar things in their history; one of my best friends, whose father was black, used to be smacked with a belt. I got my mother's open hand and sometimes a wooden spoon. If you think this is shocking, ask other people between thirty and fifty and you'll get lots of similar stories; the idea that hitting your kids is horrible abuse did not become popular in this country until Dr. Spock's book was a hit. I'm not coming down on one or another side of this issue because I do think it's better not to hit your children. But I'm not willing to condemn a huge number of mothers in America who came of age prior to the 1950s and say that most of us raised by those mothers should have been taken away from them. Finally, my point was that you could not see her hands in the video. I don't know if what I saw was a smack or not. It's all up to the interpreter to supply what wasn't in the frame. I did see shaking, I saw that there were blows, but I could not see what kind of blows they were. It could have been a bunch of smacks with the figertips, and it could have been punching with the fist. All I'm saying is that I'm not willing to gamble that foster care is a better option than leaving her with her parents based on what might have been happening outside of the frame. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:19 PM Larry, It isn't the reporting, it is the "expert" that shows bias. However, it still isn't the core of this issue. In this country there are laws established to protect the welfare of the child. It is very true that the laws can be excessive and a child can pulled from a parent under suspicion of abuse... and that goes for a parent of any hue or nationality. As for your reference to a "black American" slapping her child, if that parent was wanted on drug charges wouldn't a drug expert comment? It seems that Toogood had at least two outstanding warrants and skipped a hearing. Hmmm, wouldn't this seem to justify speaking to an "expert"? The problem hear is that the police are the ones manipulating the media. If they feed the media information about warrants and "travelers", the media tries to get answers to questions that we all have. If you read this thread you will see that many were not aware that Travelers exist in this country. By the way Larry, if you check your last sentence it looks like you made the same mistakes. You stated "The contention that all travellers are rich is nonsence, that they are all involved is liable, that you interview anti Fraud cops about a child slapping case is discrimination. " Well if you read the article that you posted, there is no assumption made that ALL Travelers are rich nor that all were involved. The facts that you quoted do mention her history of being involved in fraud cases so yes, it is justified and no it is not discrimination. Of course there is discrimination and it is wrong, but lets not start fires where none existed before. Ron
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:17 PM she is being prociscuted for the crime of being an Irish Traveller in the United States That is from your opening post, Larry. It is wrong. She is being prosecuted for strapping the child in a seat, and then slapping and shaking the child in a very dangerous way. The contention that she should be given to the Traveller community also misses the point, and IMHO, is an attempt at obfuscation. You are attempting to turn this into a discrimination case. It is not. It is about abuse, pure and simple. I would prefer that the authorities determine that they are not releasing the child into a dangerous situation. I would prefer that the system go its normal route, with testimony from Grandparents, or other interested relatives, or members of the community, whereby they demonstrate to advocates on behalf of the child, why they are the best qualified. Perhaps the family is the best suited, but maybe not. Let it work. I say again, this isn't a case of us versus them. It is about a defenseless child. It is NOT about whose Mother beat who, and did we survive it OK. It is about THIS Mother getting caught, and once that occurred the system must take over in the interest of the child. That is what a thinking, progressive society does. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM PS How about the next time a Black American slapps her kid we get an expert on drug addiction to comment, now anyone who does not see the bigotry in that, and overlooks the bigotry in the reporting above, should spend some quiet time thinking.... Cheers Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:01 PM My my my, alot of folks are missing the point. 1. The child was not only taken from HER but taken from the TRAVELLER comunity! It is an internationaly accepted wrong to separate a child from a close kinship group like Indians or Roma, or Pavees and place that child with a group which discriminates against that child. Even if the family is liberal and not anti Traveller, the message it sends the child is that your people are not equal. As to the reporting... "Beating suspect: 'I'm not a monster' Melody Mcdonald Star-Telegram Staff Writer Standing outside the county jail in South Bend, Ind., a Fort Worth-based Irish Traveller tearfully proclaimed that she is "not a monster" despite the videotaped image of her slapping and punching her 4-year-old daughter. Freed on bail Saturday after surrendering to authorities, Madelyne Toogood, 25, broke down during a nationally televised news conference over the loss of her daughter, who has temporarily been placed with foster parents. "They shouldn't have taken her," Toogood cried, referring to Child Protective Services. "They shouldn't have did this. ... I'm not a monster." With her hair changed from blond to brown since the day she was captured on videotape outside a department store, Toogood said her little girl shouldn't be punished for her mistake. "No one has the right to strike a child," Toogood said. "I'm paying for it. My entire family is paying for it. "Martha is my child. I think she is wonderful. ... I would lay my life down for her." Toogood, also known as Madelyne Gorman, surrendered to authorities about 4:30 p.m. Saturday. She arrived at the Mishawaka, Ind., police station in a convoy of vehicles that carried her Houston-based attorney Steven Rocket Rosen and her daughter. Authorities said the child was being examined by a doctor and appeared to be in good condition. The child "is a neat human being and seems to be fine," Christopher Toth, the prosecuting attorney of St. Joseph County, said Saturday in a press conference. Authorities said Toogood, who cooperated with investigators during an interview, was booked into the county jail and released after posting $5,000 bail. Prosecutors had initially requested a $50,000 bond because of her transient history. Officials said Child Protective Services will temporarily place the child with another family, a decision that clearly upset Toogood. The woman told reporters that she has been a mother since she was 19 and has three children, and that nothing like this has "ever happened before." She said she has 50 family members, many of whom have permanent residences, who could care for her child. Her attorney also criticized the girl's temporary placement with another family, saying that the Toogood family was tight-knit and traumatized by the decision. "To me, this is very detrimental, very psychologically detrimental, bordering on abusive," Rosen said. He said his client was angry because her child had misbehaved in the department store, but said he would not defend the attack. "It's clear here the young lady lost her temper," he said. "I'm not here to say she's not guilty. ... She committed a shameful act. She shall be punished." Indiana authorities issued an arrest warrant Friday afternoon for Toogood after charging her with battery of a child, a felony punishable by up to three years in prison. Authorities had been searching for Toogood and her daughter since Sept. 13, when the mother was captured on a videotape outside a Kohl's department store in Mishawaka. In the video, Toogood is seen placing her daughter in a sport utility vehicle, then slapping, punching and shaking the girl for several seconds. The episode occurred after the woman left the store angry over being refused a cash refund, authorities said. Authorities feared that the child might have been seriously injured, but they were unable to locate her or her mother. On Wednesday, the Mishawaka Police Department began distributing copies of the tape to the media, asking for the public's help in finding her. Toogood's sister, 31-year-old Margaret Daley, who authorities say was with her at the store, was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor count of failure to report child abuse and a felony count of assisting a criminal. She was released Friday after posting $2,150 bail. Toogood and Daley are affiliated with an Irish Traveller group in Texas known as the Greenhorn Carrolls, a close-knit family that often spends the winters at campgrounds in White Settlement, Fort Worth and Haltom City. During the summer, the group travels north seeking temporary work, such as asphalt paving, roofing and painting. While the men work, the women often frequent malls, beauty salons and tanning salons. Law enforcement authorities say that some Irish Travellers are experienced con artists, but that many are law-abiding citizens. Joe Livingston, a South Carolina-based expert on Travellers, said many are masters of "illusion and confusion," often obtaining fictitious driver's licenses and identification cards and using multiple home addresses. Toogood -- who under both names has identification cards and driver's licenses from numerous states, and several addresses in Fort Worth and elsewhere -- has warrants out for her arrest in Fort Worth and White Settlement. White Settlement issued a warrant on April 9 after she failed to pay a $202 traffic ticket for having no driver's license. In May, Fort Worth police issued another warrant for her arrest after she failed to appear in court to face theft charges stemming from a March 27 incident at a Kohl's store here. Dirk Moore, a Texas member of the National Association of Bunco Investigators who has investigated the Travellers for 12 years, said Saturday that he was surprised that Toogood surrendered. "I figured she would disappear, and someone would find her in five or six years when they ran her fingerprints," Moore said. "I'm surprised she turned herself in, and I'm surprised she brought the little girl with her." Moore said he was not surprised, however, that she sought out a prominent attorney to help her. "That is not a surprise," he said. "Most Travellers are fairly wealthy, and it is not uncommon for them to hire prominent attorneys to handle major cases -- and ones that have been successful in defending their clients. "They are able to afford the best." This article contains material from the Associated Press. " The contention that all travellers are rich is nonsence, that they are all involved is liable, that you interview anti Fraud cops about a child slapping case is discrimination. Cheers back at ya Rick! Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:38 PM Nerd, if you considered what you saw a "smack" I am shocked. If you received similar "smacks" as a child, you were abused. What we saw on videotape was not a "smack". Perhaps your set needs some adjustment, or a dose of reality. I still disagree with you about the marks and I've met victims of spousal abuse who tell you the same, but again you miss the point. The child was not hurt but the blows could have caused serious damage. If I pull out a gun and pull the trigger but the bullet misses you, does that mean I wasn't trying to kill you? Would you be crying "poor Ron, another guy from NJ being singled out for something he didn't do?" No harm, no foul does not work in this case. Also, thank you for jumping on my mistake of saying that you can catch intent on videotape. I guess your eyes are pretty good! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:19 PM Add my name to those who thought that Gypsies existed only to come over to your table and play a romantic violin piece. I thought the women all looked like Rhonda Fleming or Arlene Dahl and never wore anything but off the shoulder (Peasant) blouses with their waists pinched tight.
I grew up in southern Wisconsin and never heard of gypsies in our area (or in the whole country, for that matter.) In terms of prejudice and discrimination, they didn't even make the top twenty.
The assumption that everyone remembers when the Gypsies were coming to town is completely erroneous. You might even say that it's wrong. Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM Sorry, Larry. I'm with Mick, Rick, Jeri and the others on this one. The mother is a woman who beat the crap out of her kid strapped in a car seat - defenseless. She was caught on tape, dead-to-rights. Her ethnic background doesn't matter, she must be made accountable for actions, and to defend her actions based on an ethnic background is pig-headed. Seamus |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:07 PM Ron: Once again, let me say that my own mother, whom I love, smacked me and my brother around a bit, and we are both useful and productive members of society far better off than people who are taken away by Child Protective Services and go through the foster care system. Though we may have some issues, I don't think the psychological effects of being smacked were serious. So it would be counter productive to over-react to this, IMHO. If physical damage is the issue, marks ARE important. It's true that "certain blows will not leave visible marks," but physical marks are one prime indicator of injury. Try to tell a doctor that the absence of marks is irrelevant and she'll laugh at you. It's very relevant, though it may not be the whole story. In any case, as you say, the examination showed that the child had NOT sustained any serious injury. If psychological damage is the issue, it would probably be far more damaging to take her away, unless we can show a pattern of abuse that goes beyond this one incident. Intent to harm was caught on tape? I must have missed that part--you must have one of those high definition TVs. In fact, I didn't think you could catch an intent on videotape. What was caught was a mom smacking around her child. Anything else, including supposed motives, intentions and, yes, even ethnic discrimination, is being read into it by outside interpreters. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: jimmyt Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:54 PM There is a fairly large community of "travellers" living in North Augusta, S.C. To characterize this as an "ethnic" issue is the most outragious thing I have ever heard. I guess if Jeffrey Dahmer had been a traveller, his atrocities would have been pointed out and he would have been picked on because he was a traveller? give me a break! Hooray for Rick! You speak for me, and I hope anyone with an ounce of logic and reason. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,mg Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:51 PM I'm Irish American and I have never heard of Irish travelers in America..which of course means diddly. I think we have as a society been far too tolerant, to the point of idolizing them,of the way some mothers treat their children. She's a woman, she can do no wrong; she is a mother and one step away from a saint syndrome. This mother and many others need to know they will be watched closely and forever, and somehow should be kept from having more children. And where is the father? I know it is hard to be the other parent when one is a rampager, but we have to hold them both accountable. mg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:32 PM Nerd, Again, marks are not crucial. Certain blows will not create visible marks. An examination is needed, and luckily the examination did not show any physical harm. Psychological may be another story, and in either case it is irrelevant. Intent to harm is what was caught on tape. Ron |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:28 PM Whoa, just found this one. I'm in the Northeast, and no one ever mentioned she was a traveler on the news here, nor on CNN if I recall. While the Police may have "profiled" her and kept a close eye on her because she is a Traveler (if we are to believe Stilly River Stage about how it works in Texas) in the end she did the crime. It's like a thief complaining that the cops only caught him red-handed because they were looking at him due to his ethnicity. I feel sympathy for the honest members of the ethnicity who are unfairly scrutinized, but less bad for the criminals who get caught because of the scrutiny. On the flip side of this issue, though, I think the crucial point is that you could not see her hands in the video. In other words, we don't know if she was slapping, punching or shaking the child. That's why the question of "marks" was crucial. The seriousness of her offense was at stake. As it is, I don't think there is enough evidence for a child to be separated from her mother. Legally, Big Mick, you can't just say "this type of behaviour is not a one-time thing," you have to show that THIS woman has a pattern of abusing her child, and we simply have no evidence. Given that we don't know if she was slapping, punching or simply shaking, we'd be saying "any parent who ever slaps or shakes her child should have that child taken away." Under this rule, I would have been a foster child and probably had a much worse life than I've had. Thus, I can't support anything more serious than probation and an anger management class. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Art Thieme Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM I'm with Joe Offer on this. Never, ever knew there were any Irish Travellers living here in the U.S. After Joe, I'm with Mick and Rick also. Art Thieme |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Another Guest Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:58 PM As the child of a mother who beat me in a very similar manner to that in the video, I must say that I did not have children for that reason nor have any of my siblings had children. My mother had a terrible "temper" and I had bruises under my arms all the time. I have a "temper" that I must watch all the time. The doctor says these are related to female hormones, but I don't know. Please help this little girl before she is scarred for life, if not physically then psychologically. The mother has her own issues and should be working on those rather than raising a child. I know from my friends who are parents that when you "loose it," you must step back and count to ten and count to ten again until you have calmed down enough to behave as a rational human being. HITTING A CHILD IS NEVER RIGHT! |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,pavane Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:51 PM inOBU, I accept that I am not familiar with the detailed ancestry of every family of 'gypsies', but understand that they originated in an area which we now call 'India'. I was trying to point out that some 'travellers' appear to have no 'Romany' roots, and are in the UK to follow their own trades, which include scrap metal dealing and apparently, in some cases, theft. 'Tinker' is an occupation rather than an ethnic division, although I agree that it has become a derogatory term in some circumstances, possibly because of the above. |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: The Walrus at work Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM Slight thread slide (not quite a drift) Larry, "...We Roma were not travelling Indian musicians, lingustics proves we (my mother is half Lovari) were Rajaput..."
Rajputs are from Rajistan, Rajistan is in India. Walrus |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM I still prefer to challenge the original predicate on which this thread is premised. Our good friend, Larry, is just plain off base on this. We certainly could have a long and interesting debate on the "tinkers", "gypsies", "travellers", etc. I also live in an area that experiences summertime visits by folks classified this way. I work as a union organizer in an industry that issues the annual alert to its cashiers about those who would run money changing scams on overworked cashiers. I believe I could probably argue both sides of this one very effectively. But this case isn't about Traveller descrimination, no matter how hard INOBU tries to make it that. It is about a child, an innocent, being the object of a parent's frustration. She got caught, and thank God she did. I am afraid, friend Larry, that you are guilty as charged with letting your personal cause and conviction cloud your sense of right and wrong. Rick hit it dead on the head. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:32 PM Paranoia runs deep! What BS! To try to push the blame to the woman being a Traveler instead of a disturbed individual is ridiculous. If the claim that "Most anyone who can look me in the eye and say their mom did not once loose it and swat you as Madlyne Toogood did her daughter (leaving no mark by the way...) well a lot of you would be not telling the truth" were true, then that would explain why there are so many screwed up people in this world. Too many blows to the head! There is no excuse for hitting a child in that manner, and to confuse that with punishment is insane. No marks? Well that is a blessing. However if you check with physicians, you can sustain serious injuries without having a mark on a body. Victims of spousal abuse have shown that. I love it when the conspirists try to create issues that don't exist. It's always the USA trying to get rid of the little guy! Stick to chasing flying saucers! That said, I do feel for the woman. She obviously has a severe problem if she could treat her child in that manner. I hope she gets help and that the child will be out of harms way. As the saying goes, why is that you have to get a license to own a dog or a cat but anyone can be a parent? ROn |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: katlaughing Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:30 PM Some of the postings in this thread may be of interest to those who would like to know more about the Roma in America. Of particular interest might be Aine's postings, esp. her first. I offer this only as a matter of interest and education, not as any comment on the subject of this thread. I haven't seen the video and do not feel qualified to comment. kat |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:09 PM Guest Rich and Dee said
From what has been broadcast, the mom was upset after unsuccessfully trying to return a pair of jeans. Her daughter had wandered away from her and been paged twice and had been caught taking toys out of packages. There has been no issue of her being a Traveller and I suspect there can be no issue. As for her family, it is illegal to hamper a police investigation, which is what her family did by effectively hiding her for a weekend. As citizens of the USA, they have to abide by the law of the land. The mom has a heavy Chicago accent. She looks like a blue-collar mid-West mom with no trace of ethnicity. This strikes me as a rather cockeyed defense of the press and the police. Of course there was the issue of her being a Traveller. And since when does a "blue collar mid-West mom" constitute "no ethnicity?" It tells me that writer of the post is a blue collar white middle-class individual who sees all else as "other" and him or herself as ethnically at the center of the world. (It is from this position that Ugly Americans are born.) Am I the only one who remembers my mother standing conspicuously in the yard watching very carefully as the gypsy who had approached the house looking for work walked down the street, making sure that nothing was broken or stolen as payback for not accepting the offer of "work?" Gypsies and Travellers have been in the U.S. for ages. I expect today I'd do the same thing my mom did. Effective peddlar licenses have buffered a lot of urban dwellers over the years, but we lived out in the county where it was open season on homeowners when the gypsies came through. We are creatures of our environments, and while I'd like to say I'm accepting of groups unlike my own, I'm also cautious and have to say that today I still wouldn't turn my back on Travellers. Down here in Fort Worth the first thing out of the newscasters' mouths were the name "Gorman" and the term "Traveller" while the mother was being sought. Personally, I don't expect her to stick around for her day in court, she'll vanish. The store probably refused to take the jeans because they thought they were stolen. Perhaps they have some sort of "heads up" system for recognizing (by name) folks who regularly come in and try to sell stolen goods back to the store, but regardless of the outcome in the store, it was no reason to strike as she did a child strapped into a carseat. If people are cautious because of her affiliations with Travellers, it's because of her ability to vanish with the support of a close-knit culture that is haphazard about how they treat their children. She will vanish and her children will probably vanish with her. My mother was a social worker in Washington State, in Child Protective Services, and one group she was occasionally called about by area schools were the gypsy children. I don't recall the exact nature of the problems the schools reported, except that the children always vanished before the state had time to intervene in the way the schools wished. I wish I had a little more time to make this more sensible myself, but I've probably said enough. SRS (Still liberal, but nobody's fool)
|
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:57 PM I have nothing but praise for the intervenors. This case had nothing to do with discrimination, but with abuse of a child who could not fight back. |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Kim C Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:52 PM She used the kid's head for a punching bag. I don't care where you're from, that's just not tolerable. The child could have been in serious danger. Thankfully, that isn't the case - but if the child had died, and no one had done anything, what then? |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: jimmyt Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:12 PM Hooray Rick, Big Mick and Jeri for telling it like it is! I completely share your views! I guess if Jeffrey Daumer had been a "traveller" he really wouldn't have been guilty, just picked on because of his ethnicity? |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Grab Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:09 PM Nope, neither of my parents ever hit me repeatedly round the head. Nor did my friends' parents do it to them, to my knowledge. Be honest, can you tell from the video footage that she is ethnically an Irish traveller? If so, how? Re "the story not reported", do you have anywhere that does tell this story? Or are all the newspapers, all the police, all the government officials and everyone else in this big conspiracy together? Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jeri Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:48 AM I try to think how the authorities SHOULD have reacted to a video of a woman beating a kid vs. what DID happen, and I can't come up with any differences. Larry, you appear to saying child abuse is acceptable and that the authorities were wrong for intervening. I read this last night and had a hard time believing you would go to such lengths to fabricate an issue so as to allow yourself to see ethnic persecution here. I didn't know what to say. You're so concerned with the rights of a favorite group that you're dismissing other people's, and my impression is that kid just doesn't matter to you. |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:39 AM You beat me to it, Rick. I saw the video, then I saw the lame "I don't beat my kid, I am ashamed that I lost it this time" defense. My whole career has been a study in human behaviour. I am told that this woman was frustrated from not being able to get a cash refund in the store she was in. The next thing we see is a happy kid bouncing up to the car, the woman putting her in and looking around, then without warning she shakes and hits the child, while in an rage. The fact that she left no marks has absolutely no bearing whatever. The facts are that a wrong move in this state of mind could have resulted in the death of this child. This type of behaviour is not a one time thing. It is the result of a lifetime of not knowing how to deal with anger. And it is what results in the tragedies that we continually read about. When confronted with things that these folks can't control, they strike out at the most vulnerable thing they can. Kids, sometimes spouses, whatever. Taking this child out of her control is the correct thing to do. She must earn her way back. This has nothing to do with discrimination against any group. It is about saving a child. Period. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Rick Fielding Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:27 AM Absolute Total Bull Crap Larry. Shame on you! I saw that video and it almost made me sick to my stomach. If that is how kids are normally disciplined, then what a fucking abnormal upbringing I had. You've let your ideology completely colour your common sense. Cheers (or I'll go upside your head) Rick |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:22 AM I think that Rich said it all. To claim that the woman was sought after because of prejudice and discrimination because she is an Irish Traveller makes zero sense. How can you discriminate against people when you've never even heard of the term, and the person admits that she abused her child? When I raised my two sons, they got a good whack on the rear end a few times to know that I was serious, but I drew the line at smacking them in the head. I hurt their pride more than their body. And when they needed discipline, they never got it in public. I wanted to correct them, not humiliate them. But they knew that when I took them out of a store, they were going to get it. It rarely took even a smack on the rump to straighten them out. All it took was "that look." Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Gimme a break Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:26 AM According to InOBU, Madlyne Toogood is being "prociscuted" becuase she is an "Irish Traveller." None of the news reports I've seen or read have mentioned any ethnicity. When I saw and heard her speak on TV, I didn't hear any accent that would make me think she's anything other than American. And it shouldn't make any difference anyway. Madlyne Toogood is being prosecuted because she violently abused her child and was caught on video tape doing it. Madlyne Toogood's lawyer has stated that the tape didn't lie and that he expects her to change her plea to guilty. Madlyne Toogood herself has admitted her wrongdoing. InOBU's idiotic and irrational defence of this child beater is shameful. |
|
Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: mack/misophist Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:22 AM I have known Romany in the US. If I hadn't been told I would never have known they were Romany. As for Travellers, that sounds almost like a matter of opinion; kind of like whether some one from Louisiana is black or white. |