 sj |
||
|
||
Origin of Ida Red
DigiTrad:
IDA RED/SHOOTIN CREEK
Related thread:
Lyr Req: Ida Red (Land Norris) (9)
|
|
|
Subject: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:02 AM The Ballad Index lists the early date of Ida Red as 1929. I have it as Riley Pucket's (north Georgia) version, released in 1926, which became the second best-selling country music record for the year. Combs (1967: 92) attributes the tune to black origins. What are the variants in the African-American tradition? Ida Red is also included in "Civil War Guitar" (Legend records GLC-6031), available at practically any of the U.S. Park Service visitor's centers. The arrangement consists of guitar, banjo and an occasional harmonica. This would date Ida Red back to the 1860's? Many sources claim Chuck Berry's 'Maybelline' was simply an adaptation of the Wills 1938 Vocalion recording of 'Ida Red,' the traditional folk tune that Bob had set to a beat. Does any one have the lyrics to Wills version? Help! Richie click for related thread (Maybelline) |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Mr Red Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:50 PM Good name. They is (was) a country rockabilly band in the UK of that name. Not had much to do with them as they are not folky enough for me but Tim Smith played in the band and he was a regular mandolin/banjo player at the Battle of Worcester club - so 1/4 vote for the red and 1/4 for Tim. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:20 PM I think I'll paste in the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index, so we have something to build on. Note that this song is NOT the song we have in the Digital Tradition, Ida Red/Shootin Creek....or is it? -Joe Offer- IDA RED/SHOOTIN CREEK Ida red, Ida green, purtiest gal I ever seen Ida red Ida red I'm just crazy about Ida red Goin up to shootin creek goin in a run Goin up to shootin creek have a little fun Ida red she lives in town Weighs three hundred and forty pounds Ida red, Ida blue, Ida bit a hoecake half in two If I'd a-listened to what Ida said, I'd a-been sleeping in Ida's bed filename[ IDARED BL PLEASE NOTE: Because of the volunteer nature of The Digital Tradition, it is difficult to ensure proper attribution and copyright information for every song included. Please assume that any song which lists a composer is copyrighted ©. You MUST aquire proper license before using these songs for ANY commercial purpose. If you have any additional information or corrections to the credit or copyright information included, please e-mail those additions or corrections to us (along with the song title as indexed) so that we can update the database as soon as possible. Thank You.
Ida Red (I)DESCRIPTION: "Ida Red, Ida Red, I'm in love with Ida Red." Verses often concern Ida, but are frequently silly and exaggerated: "Ida Red, she ain't a fool, Bigger'n an elephant, stronger'n a mule."AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1929 (recording, Charlie Poole) KEYWORDS: love nonballad humorous FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So,SW) REFERENCES (5 citations): Randolph 442, "Ida Red" (1 text, 1 tune) Silber-FSWB, p. 36, "Ida Red" (1 text) Rorrer, p. 83, "Shootin' Creek" (1 text, with verses from this song but music and chorus from "Cripple Creek (I)") MWheeler, p. 14, "Ida Red" (1 text, 1 tune, somewhat removed from the standard version but too close to list as a separate song) DT, IDARED RECORDINGS: Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers, "Shootin' Creek" (composite, with tune and chorus from "Cripple Creek (I); Columbia15286-D, 1928; on CPoole01, CPoole05) Bob Wills & his Texas Playboys, "Ida Red" (Vocalion 05079, 1939) Pete Steele, "Ida Red" (on PSteele01) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Cripple Creek (I)" (floating verses) Notes: Wheeler's version has the chorus, "Ida Red, I'm gettin' tired uv eatin' that shortnin' bread." Not enough reason to call it a separate song, to my mind. - RBW File: R442 Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2002 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:25 PM Here are the lyrics Amos posted in the "Maybelline" thread - definitely related to what's in the DT. -Joe Offer- Thread #38155 Message #535601 Posted By: Amos 26-Aug-01 - 02:27 PM Thread Name: Maybelline:What Are The Original Lyrics? Subject: Lyr Add: IDA RED
Peter: |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:50 PM Here is what Vance Randolph said; "This is not really a song at all, say the serious ballad singers, but just "idlesome words" set to an old fiddle tune, still popular at backwoods hoedowns and kitchen-sweats. Ten recordings of "Ida Red," .....1935-1939...., are found in the Archive of American Folk Song (Check List, 1942, p. 181)." Randolph gives a short version he recorded in 1941, the singer alternating stanzas with fiddle playing. Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 3, p. 197, of the 1980 ed., Univ. Missouri Press. IDA RED Hats on the mantel, pictures on the wall, There's a pretty soldier, and that's not all, I'm mistaken, I'm not right, Somebody else giv'n a party tonight. (Shouted) Idy Red, Idy Red, I'm in love with Idy Red! Down the road, a mile and a half, I didn't see her, but I heard her laugh, Idy Red, she ain't no fool, Bigger'n a elephant, stronger'n a mule. Mr. Fred Painter, Galena, MO, 1941. Note: In 1941, lots of boys in uniform ("pretty soldier"). |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM Bob Will's version (one of them) and that of Country Skinner (with chords) are in Cowpie website. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:07 PM These verses are supposedly from Poole's "Shootin' Creek" 1928, using Cripple Creek tune. Buy me a horse and make me a sled Nobody rides with Ida Red Ida Red she lives in town She weighs four hundred and forty pounds. Ida Red she's a darned old fool Tried to put a saddle on a humpbacked mule Up the road and across the creek Can't get a letter but once a week. Going up Shootin' Creek, going in a run Going up Shootin' Creek, have a little fun. Going up Shootin' Creek, going in a run Take my razor and a Gatling gun. Compare with Digital Tradition Mirror. From Shootin' Creek |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 25 Sep 02 - 08:34 PM The Fiddler's Companion entry for the tune has some information and some lyrics: IDA RED. AKA- "Idy Red." Old-Time, Breakdown. USA; West Virginia, southwest Virginia, north Georgia, Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas. A Major (Phillips): G Major (Krassen). AEAE or Standard. AB: AABB (Krassen). Ida Red was originally supposed to have been an African-American bad man, but the gender of the character in most versions is feminine or androgynous. The tune, which varies widely though retains distinctive cadences, was recorded for the Library of Congress by musicologist/folklorist Vance Randolph from Ozark Mountain fiddlers in the early 1940's. Riley Pucket's (north Georgia) version of the tune, released in 1926, became the second best-selling country music record for the year. Kentucky fiddler Jim Bowles plays a crosstuned version.
*** --Stewie. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:26 PM Charlie Poole, "Shootin' Creek," with the North Carolina Ramblers, 1928, is on Honking Duck. Columbia 15286 - D. Honking Duck Click on 78s and search by title. The words are the same as those posted in this thread, 25-Sep-02-05:07 PM (guest). Charlie, Roy and the boys talk a bit to introduce the tune. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:27 PM For purposes of comparison, I post the Bob Wills version from Cowpie below. With the exception of minor textual changes and the omission of the 'My Ol' Missus' stanza, it accords with the recording I have on Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys 'The Tiffany Transcriptions Vol 2' Kaleidoscope LP F-19, recorded in 13 May 1946 in San Francisco.
IDA RED
|
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:57 PM Bob Wills lyrics: the verse "My Old Missus ...set me free" occurs in many variations in Negro songs. "Chicken in the breadpan" is another floating or borrowed verse. One of the many "set me free" verses, this one from Newman L. White, 1928, American Negro Folk-Songs, reported from Alabama, 1915. My ole mistis promised me When she died she'd set me free. She lived so long That her head got ball, And the Lord couldn't kill her with a hickory maul. Also this one from Alabama, 1915 (same reference): Chicken in the bread tray Scratching out dough; Sally, will your dog bite? No, child, no. There are innumerable verses of this type, sung by both Negroes and Whites, and used in play-parties by children and adults. They pop up wherever a filler verse in needed. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:07 PM The verse about the razor and the Gatling gun in the Poole lyrics is found in this verse from Thomas W. Talley, Negro Folk Rhymes (175, Looking For A Fight): I went down town de yudder night, A-raisin' san' an a-wantin' a fight. Had a forty dollar razzer, an' a gatlin' gun, For to shoot dem Niggers down one by one. Published originally in 1949, Talley's manuscript mostly dates from 1921. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:20 PM I have "Rambling Blues, The Life and Songs of Charlie Poole" by Kinney Rorrer. I'll ask Kinney about it as I'll be up in Eden playing with Doug Rorrer and Doc Watson next Sat. The lyrics posted by guest are correct. Shootin' Creek is a community in Western Franklin Co., Va. that Poole visited in his rambles. It's a combination of Ida Red with the chorus of Cripple Creek, which Poole renamed Shootin' Creek. I suspect that Poole heard Riley Pucket's popular 1926 version and used it make his own song. In both Ceolas and Combs, Ida Red is supposed to represent an African-American male but has become through the years a female! With this sex change he/she is definitely not politically correct. However, we still don't have any early versions, or African-American versions. Since Ida Red is listed as a Civil War song, shouldn't there be some early version to corroborate this inclusion. This is from my previous post: Ida Red is also included in "Civil War Guitar" (Legend records GLC-6031), available at practically any of the U.S. Park Service visitor's centers. The arrangements consists of guitar, banjo and an occasional harmonica. This would date Ida Red back to the 1860's? I think the chorus of Maybellene is the only part that is similar to Ida Red. Both Johnson and Berry reworked the song extensively. Thanks to all who have helped. Anyone have other versions? -Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:21 PM So, far, it seems that "Ida Red" is an old fiddle tune to which have been applied verses from numerous sources. The verses belong to previously existing songs, so Randolph appears to be correct; it is a fiddle tune with "idlesome words." (Haven't found the house interior lines (lamp on the table, etc.) yet. References to its existence during the Civil War seem to refer to some of the floating verses, some of which have minstrel origins. The story about a man named Ida Red? There is no supporting evidence, so far. There is a parallel fiddle tune called "Chicken in the Bread Tray" or "Granny, Will Your Dog Bite?" Here is what Talley says about it. "Ira Ford, in his Traditional Music of America (1940) lists this as a square dance tune, with the lyrics as "occasional verses" fiddlers sang in calling sets. It has been called [Chicken- Granny] and has been collected widely from Mississippi to California [Note- also by Brown in North Carolina and by Randolph in Missouri]." "Ray Browne, in The Alabama Folk Lyric [1979], notes that he has heard it often as a banjo tune and that it "seems to be a greater favorite with Negros than Whites." The opening quatrain appears often in white old-time music recordings of the 1920s." Lines appear in "Shootin' Creek - Ida Red." CHICKEN IN THE BREAD TRAY Auntie, will your dog bite? - No, chile, no! Chicken in de bread tray A makin' up dough. Auntie, will your broom hit? Yes, chile! Pop! Chicken in de bread tray, Flop! Flop! Flop! Auntie, will yo' oven bake? - Yes, jes' fry!- What's dat chicken good fer?- Pie! Pie! Pie! Auntie is yo' pie good? - Good as you could 'spec. Chicken in de bread tray; Peck! Peck! Peck! Talley, Negro Folk Rhymes. 1991 new edition ed. Ch. K. Wolfe, p. 6, Univ. Tenn. Press. Don't have any collection dates for it. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM Ida Red is also related to Gus Cannon's "Feather Bed" and Uncle Dave Macon's "Over the Road I'm Bound To Go" both songs I have in my database. Another Uncle Dave Macon song which I also have is "Down the Road" which he uses Pearly Blue, similar to Ida Blue, found in some versions. Maybe there's a connection with these three songs that could be traced back a ways. If Stewie (master of lyr. add) hasn't already posted them I'd be glad to post any of them. Are these songs versions of Ida Red? Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:14 AM Jeff Todd Titon includes 'Ida Red' as tune #65 in his 'Old-Time Kentucky Fiddle Tunes' Uni Press of Kentucky p94. His note doesn't add much to what has been indicated above:
... This widespread dance tune with lyrics has been recorded by fiddlers and banjo players throughout the South and the South-west. It appeared in severa of the 1915 Berea students' tune lists, but was not played in any of the Berea fiddle contests. The lyrics (see Thede 1967, 60, and Lomax and Lomax 1934, 110-111) suggest an African American or minstrel origin. ... Published recordings - Kentucky: Ed Haley, Rounder 1131/1132; Jim Bowles, Meriweather 1001-2, Marimac 9060. Elsewhere: Dykes Magic City Trio (1927), OHCS 0191; Tommy Jarrell, County 791; Ernest V. Stoneman, Rounder 1008; Clayton McMichen, Davis Unlimited DU 33032. [JTT p95] Surprisingly, I cannot find an entry in the Meade, Spottswood, Meade biblio-discography, at least not under the title 'Ida Red'. Interestingly, however, they include 'Granny Will Your Dog Bite' in their category of 'Instrumental Music - Old Scot-Nordic'. Their earliest reference for this is: Septimus Winner 'Choice Gems For The Violin' Cleveland, S. Brainard's Sons 1873. --Stewie. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: 12-stringer Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:28 AM The Wills version takes its first, second, and last stanzas quite directly from "The Parlor is a Pleasant Place to Sit on Sunday Night," which sounds to me like a late 19th century pop song. Somewhere I still have the 78 rpm of this by Hugh Cross (4/3/1927, mx143934-2, released on Co 15182-D). I don't know of any other oldtime recordings but there may have been some. The "parlor" song seems to be the original home of the lyrics, since there are additional verses not used in the Wills record and the song tells a little story about courting in the parlor. The original is much slower and I think in 3/4 time (haven't heard it in many many years); it does not have the clipped lyrics found in the "Ida Red" version. The first stanza goes (more or less): The light is in the parlor, the fire is on the grate, The clock upon the mantle ticks out it's getting late, The curtains on the window are made of snowy white, The parlor is a pleasant place to sit on Sunday night. Interestingly, the Randolph text, though garbled, also begins with a variation of the "lights in the parlor" stanza. I wonder if this is traceable to the Wills performance (record or radio), or if the "parlor" lyrics had been allied to "Ida Red" prior to the Wills recording. I've never heard them in any southeastern version that did not derive directly from Wills, but the latter is the only southwestern version I've ever heard. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:28 AM I founs some info on the African-american connection from gandy dancers John Mealing and Cornelius Wright, Jr. The term gandy dancers comes from the Chicago-based Gandy Manufacturing Company, maker of railroad tools, and the "dancing" movements of the workers using them. Teams of eight to 14 men worked together to lay or care for the tracks of southern railroads. They had a rich repertoire of songs used for the many tasks required of them; songs, in the poetic words of folklorist Alan Lomax, that "sounded so wild and sweet that the mockingbirds in the nearby bushes stopped to listen, [as the] railroad moved into the Southern wilderness." Judging from the scant historical record we have of railroad chants dating back to John Lomax and Herbert Halpert's recordings in the 1930s, it is clear that certain couplets have remained strong in the oral tradition of railroad laborers. Such verses include those about the foreman's incompetence:
Captain can't read, Captain can't write
Oh boys over yonder (4 times) There are riddle calls, and calls about making and losing money:
When I was working for the L&N, Since the caller was never sure when the call had to stop, there was generally no narrative logic to the sequence of his calls. A verse recalling a biblical figure of the past is followed by several about women of the present:
If I could I surely would,
I don't know but I've been told,
Ida Red and Ida Blue, -Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:35 AM My apologies, there is a huge entry for 'Ida Red' in the Meade, Spottswood, Meade tome under 'Miscellaneous' - I was reading their index incorrectly! The earliest recordings given are Fiddlin' Powers & Family (vcl by Carson Robison) on 19 August 1924 (issued December 1924 Victor 19434) and Land Norris in July 1925 (issued November 1925 OK 45006). There is a further recording by Fiddlin' Powers & Family (vcl by Charlie Powers) on 3 October 1925 (issued March 1926 Ed 51662). The next earliest is the Riley Puckett one mentioned above. Bob Wills' earliest recording (with Tommy Duncan on vocals) was 29 November 1938 in Dallas, but not issued until October 1939 as Vo 05079. MSM's earliest reference for 'Ida Red' is 'Journal of American Folklore XXVIII, 1915'. --Stewie. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:45 AM 12-Stringer, the Meade, Spottswood, Meade biblio-discography attributes words and music for 'The Parlor Is A Pleasant Place' to Albert E. Porter 1886. It refers to recordings by Frank Crumit (Vi 19777 in 1925) and the one you referred to: Hugh Cross (Co 15182 in 1927). --Stewie. |
|
Subject: ADD: Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:25 AM Here are most of the Skillet Licker lyrics - I cannot decipher the second line of the fourth stanza. Any ideas? I have omitted spoken comments.
IDA RED --Stewie |
|
Subject: ADD: Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:47 AM Here is the Lomax text.
IDA RED |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:16 AM "Over the road" is a reference to "Going to jail." Here are Uncle Dave Macon's lyrics:
Lyr. add: OVER THE ROAD I'M BOUND TO GO
Good, John German can't you see,
Everyday that I pass bye,
It may rain, it may snow,
My old apple could preach and cough,
Everyday that I pass bye,
It may rain, it may snow,
My old apple could preach and cough,
Everyday that I pass bye,
It may rain, it may snow,
My them women they did shout,
It may rain, it may snow, Note: the connection between Stewie's post, Lomax's "Ida Red" and Uncle Dave's version are obvious. -Richie
|
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Rolfyboy6 Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:17 AM Otha Tuner and the Rising Star Fife and Drum Band from North Mississippi do "Granny Does Your Dog Bite?" on the "Everybody Hollerin' Goat" CD (Birdman Records). It's done with cane fife and snare and bass drum. I'm seeing/hearing that there is an underlying rhythmic/meter pattern common to most of the above cited songs/versions. Evidence for the fiddle tune transmission of these versions and variants. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 26 Sep 02 - 10:10 AM Lyr. add: FEATHER BED Gus Cannon- Cannon's Jug Stompers (1928)
I remember the time just before the war,
Wee wee, my dear Nancy, Over the road I'm bound to go.
I went up to town, go out to shriek and howl,
I went downtown, didn't mean no harm,
Ooh oooh, baby,
I went downtown, doing my best,
Wee ee ee, baby,
Now I knew Joe Louis was in stand,
Wee ee ee, baby,
Old Britt and Moses Brown, Notes: Includes a reference to Cripple Creek with similarities to Uncle Dave's "over the Road I'm Bound To Go" and Lomax's "Ida Red" posted above. -Richie
|
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:59 PM Pope's Arkansas Mountaineers recorded a 'chicken in the breadpan' variant under the title 'Hog-eye' which has some lyric similarities with the 'Hog-eye Man', best known as a sea shanty. It is included in NLCR 'Old-Time String Band Songbook' and has been released on CD in Dr Bill McNeil's box set 'Somewhere in Arkansas: Early Country Music Recordings From Arkansas 1928-1932' Center for Arkansas and Regional Studies, no catalogue #. Below is McNeil's transcription:
HOG-EYE --Stewie. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 26 Sep 02 - 10:31 PM Another old fiddle tune on Honking Duck: Clayton McMichen and Riley Puckett and Rye Straw (1930). The origin of these tunes, many with the same simple meter and borrowed lyrics, may remain uncertain but perhaps some can be found in old fiddle compilations and notebooks (comment by Rolfyboy6) both in North America and Europe. Lyrics are going to be what comes to the mind of the caller or singer. Hog-Eye reminds me of this verse from a song in Odum and Johnson- I went down to hog-eye town, Dey sot me down to table; I et so much dat hog-eye grease, Till the grease run out my nabel. Run along home, Miss Hog-eye, Singing high stepper, Lawd, you shall be free. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 27 Sep 02 - 12:24 AM Stewie and Guest- Appreciate your interest but I don't consider "Hog-eye" or "Granny"to be a part of the Ida Red family (although they may have floating lyrics). I'd like to see the complete lyrics to "The Parlor Is A Pleasant Place" by Albert E. Porter -1886. I do consider "Down the Road" to be part of the "Ida Red" family as well as the two other songs I've posted "Over the Road and "Feather Bed". What do you think? Lyr. Add: Down The Road
Now down the road about a mile or two
Now every day and Sunday too
Now any time you want to know
Now old man Hicks he owns the farm
Now every day and Sunday too Notes: Standard bluegrass version. Does anyone have any early African-American versions? -Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: 12-stringer Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:23 AM Stewie, Thanks for the info! I thought it *sounded* 19th century, and now that you mention it, a Crumitt recording seems to ring a bell, too, though the only one I've ever heard is the Hugh Cross. RT |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:59 AM Hi Richie, I wasn't suggesting a connection. Since 'Granny' had been raised and I had the lyrics for 'Hog-eye' handy, I thought I might as well post them. I agree that 'Over the road', 'Down the road' and 'Feather Bed' are all related to 'Ida Red'. I believe there are some mondegreens in the transcription of Uncle Dave's 'Over the Road' that you posted. Rather than refer to particular lines, I will post what I hear with the help of the transcription in the NLCR songbook - they have some oddities too such as 'Meeting here, my honey dear' when Uncle Dave clearly sings 'Weep not, my dear honey'. The lyrics that you posted for 'Down the Road', with minor textual alterations and stanza reshuffling, are basically what Flatt and Scruggs recorded at their Mercury sessions. And a stanza they sang twice began: 'Now every time I get the blues/I walked the soles right off my shoes'.
OVER THE ROAD I'M BOUND TO GO
|
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 27 Sep 02 - 08:08 AM Stewie- Thanks for the posts. 12-Stringer- I think the info about "The Parlor Is A Pleasant Place" is significant and not mentioned anywhere else on the web or by Charles Wolfe and other historians. If you could dig up the lyrics it would be appreciated. Here's what Wolfe says about Ida Red: Another such tune was Ida Red, the quintessential Texas two step that has become a required addition to any dance in Texas, Oklahoma, or southern California. Though associated with western swing king Bob Wills (who recorded his definitive version in 1938), it seems much older. Folksong collector John Lomax classified it as a song about "Negro Bad Men" and prints a version he collected in the Colorado River bottoms in Texas (see his book American Ballads and Folk Songs.) The song was featured in later years by Woody Guthrie's uncle, Jack Guthrie, a popular radio entertainer in the 40s, and leant its melody to rock and roll pioneer Chuck Berry for his 1955 classic "Mabelline." Anyone have the Lomax text referred to above? -Richie
|
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 27 Sep 02 - 08:33 AM Here are some African-American words already posted above (in Ceolas) from Thede's fiddle book. They are taken from Charlie in 1918 Murray County, OK. They are similar to Cannon's "Feather Bed" and Uncle Dave's "Over the Road":
I went down town one day in a lope This 1918 version is one of the earliest version on record. -Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 27 Sep 02 - 09:27 AM Richie, the Lomax text that Wolfe refers to is the one I posted. --Stewie. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 27 Sep 02 - 07:26 PM A short version of Ida Red, very poor audio, is on American Memory, Cowell Collection, sung by Pat Ford, 1938, Central Valley of California. Search Type Ida Red in search box. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:06 PM Here's the lyrics from the last post. I had already transcribed them. Hard to hear the last line.
Idy Red
Down the river and across the creek,
Idy Red she ain't no fool,
Idy Red, Idy Black,
Idy red, Idy green,
Dranked all the whiskey I had in the still
Talk about tabbacy, to leave me some skin, *last line hard to understand, might need some help. -Richie
|
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:53 AM The first two couplets in Ford's version are well known, picked up about 1915 by compilers of Negro folksong. The stolen coat and vest verse shows up about the same time. This only means that song collectors were active at this time- the verses are probably a lot older. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:16 PM Searching around in American Memory WPA interviews from the 1930s, I found this old dance lyric, remembered from the 1890s by a Mrs. Ingalls of Portland OR. Born in 1873, she remembered the words of this tune from dances. Not Ida Red, but interesting, and I wondered if it is in your notes. WEEVILY WHEAT (spelt weavily in the article) Your weevily wheat isn't fit to eat And neither is your barley We'll have the best of Boston wheat To bake a cake for Charlie. Oh Charley, he's a fine young man And Charley he's a dandy And Charlie loves to kiss the girls Whenever they come handy. Fragments of old songs occur in the thousands of interviews made in WPA make-work projects during the 1930s. A good thesis project for a folklore student would be to go through these tons of paper to sift out songs and poems. Unfortunately, of course, no music, although comparisons may be made with other tunes in some. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:26 PM Just found Weevily Wheat in a couple of references. Should have looked first, but the words are different. |
|
Subject: ADD: 'Charley He's a Good Ol' Man' From: Stewie Date: 29 Sep 02 - 04:18 AM Guest, We seem to be straying from 'Ida Red', but what the heck. 'Weevily Wheat', also titled 'Charley He's a Good Ol' Man', was recorded by Kelly Harrell in the 20s. Harrell adopts a female persona which seems appropriate given the associations with the 'single life' stanza. The NLCR songbook gives Harrell as its source but adopts a male persona and omits the 'Over the river' stanza. It is a widely known play party song that originally expressed Jacobite sentiments, but that context is long gone. Uncle Dave printed his own version in his 1938 songbook. I will post it to the Uncle Dave Macon lyrics thread. I stand to be corrected, but I don't think Uncle Dave actually recorded it. Here's the Harrell version:
CHARLEY HE'S A GOOD OL' MAN --Stewie.
|
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: Stewie Date: 29 Sep 02 - 04:33 AM Sorry, the fourth line of the first stanza of the Harrell song should read 'And no man can control me'. I would be grateful if a JoeClone could fix it and delete this. Thanks. --Stewie. |
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST,Richie Date: 29 Sep 02 - 08:53 AM Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I assume because there have be no recent posts about Ida Red that others do not have versions of Ida Red or more info about its origin. I consider "Weevily Wheat" and "Granny" to be separate tunes. Remember there are hundreds of fiddle tunes that sometimes share verses. I'd like to post some conclusions for debate: No evidence is available to back-up the assertion that Ida Red, although included in "Civil War Guitar" (Legend records GLC-6031), was a Civil War song. We can safely say that the Wills version can be traced to "The Parlor Is A Pleasant Place" in 1886. "Ida Red" is related to "Over the Road" and "Feather Bed" and more remotely to "Down the Road". There's not much evidence to support the Lomax theory that Ida Red was an African-American bad man. Our posts have all had Ida as a female. If anyone has more info or would like to comment please do. I'd like to keep our posts to Ida Red on this thread and not branch out into other tunes unless they are directly related. It's hard for others to find Weevily Wheat under the Ida Red thread. We can always start another thread. Thanks again, -Richie
|
|
Subject: RE: Origin of Ida Red From: GUEST Date: 29 Sep 02 - 12:16 PM The Ida Red-bad man story stems only from the version Lomax collected on a Texas prison farm and printed in American Ballads and Folk Songs. He headed the section "Negro Bad Men" but had a mixture, including the Boll Weevil song, in that section. |
| Share Thread: |