BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 12:50 AM

Mrs. Toogood will also be held accountable to a court of her superiors - within the traveler system of justice - the penalty for bringing the community into "high profile" can be harsh enough that she will wish to be in the "kindly hands" of a state penal system.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 12:51 AM

Let's see how the press handles this story. A man in Texas is in jail on charges he used a stun gun to discipline his 8 year old son. He is on jail with a $15,000 bail. (Higher than Toogoods I believe). All four of his children have been placed in foster care. (Did I read that Toogood still has custody of her other children?

This sparking example of human excrement told the Houston Chronicle - "The belt didn't work; this did. It hurts much less than the belt. I've whipped his ass so hard that it left marks. That just didn't send the message and this did".

I'm sure some of you are asking - no there is no mention of his ethnic background other than he is from Texas. It will be real interesting to see how this story plays in the U.S. press in comparision to Toogood.

Maybe I need to rethink my feelings on capital punishment.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 12:56 AM

Was there a video tape of the 8 y.o. and the stun-gun?

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 01:12 AM

Apparently not, which would make it less of a "draw" for the major networks.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 09:12 AM

Larry, give Toogood some real advice, advise her to dump the team, go to court with one lawyer and get it over and done with.

Saves time and money, you have some legal circus going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 09:37 AM

Congratulations to all of the Mudcatters who continue to defy the wishes of McGrath of Harlow by discussing this issue.

I know that I'm not the only one who's sick of Kevin McGrath going on and on and on and on and on about something and then trying to decide for the rest of us when the discussion is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 05:18 PM

There are many "nice," white American mothers who beat their children. You don't see the media blowing their cases out of proportion.

Then again, if they had footage of the beatings on video, they probably would.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 08:35 PM

Believe me, if Geraldo Rivera had footage of people beating their children you would see primetime specials galore. The press loves such things. This is a "hot" topic for the media - it plays on sympathy and it is something most people can relate to in one way or another.

I don't mean to sound prejudiced against the media since I've spent some of my career in that arena (on the technical side), there are some good journalists left in the world.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Blues=Life
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:22 AM

As a professional traveller, not an Irish Traveller, I first looked into this thread to see what new problem I was going to be facing at airports. Imagine my suprise to find out that I was being a bigot because the woman who beat up on her 4 year old was an Irish Traveller. Oh. I'm sorry. Well, that's all right then, hit the kid again.

Excuse me? You can't have it both ways, folks. As Aine said, "As I read through the posts to this thread, it is apparent that many of you are unaware of the history and background of the Irish Travellers (Pavees)." How can I be discriminating against this woman if I am ignorant both of an ethnic group, and her membership in it? Sorry, but that dog won't hunt.

The ONLY mention I've seen so far about Irish Travellers has been here. And the logical basis of the "she's being discriminated against, that's why she's innocent of whomping on her kid" defense seems to be on a par with the old example of the man who killed his parents, and then pleaded with the judge for mercy on the grounds that he was an orphan.

Finally, I don't think foster care is a great option. But it sure beats a punch to the head.

It's about a 4-year old kid, stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 08:17 AM

Yes it is about the four year old stupid... and every day that you separate that child from her ethnic community adds damage to her sence of self, that is not from me but from the experts with Dr. before there name, who study ethnicity, sociology and anthropology. It is about the child and the State of Indiana, in their blind hatred of Travellers is blind to the need of that child to be among HER people. Most Americans don't get it, but that is not proof that will stand up in court, The US government hold Eastern European nations to task for the same deprivation of rights in Indiana, we demand an end to out adoption of Roma "Gypsies" overseas, we legislate protection of Indians from that same outrage, and then the nation condones that violation of rights when the news media spews hatred of Traveller people in this nation.
I think we should start a part three folks, this is getting long again, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 08:54 AM

Larry,

I can't hear the sense you are trying so urgently to convey, amid your diatribes. I admire your passion, but your passion has overwhelmed your peaceability. I pray you will find a peaceful way to keep teaching people about the good you see in folk. If going to a part three will just continue the pain-slinging, I'll be sad to see it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 10:01 AM

Larry,

I'm still struggling with this. When you say the State of Indiana treats Travelers with "blind hatred", could you give examples? I realize these threads are lengthy, but I don't recall seeing anything specific - except for your statements about the child being separated from her community.

Your feelings about the child being separated from her community are well taken, but based on other cases that I've read about this seems like the standard procedure in such cases. Foster homes do not necessarily mean permanent and when there is danger of flight and potential additional abuse. Bottom line, if this incident never occured the issue of foster homes would be moot.

Also, it should be mentioned that not all doctors would agree completely with your statement that separation from her community adds damage to her sense of self- at least in the context that you've supplied. While you say you have knowledge of this case, we really don't know what this child's current sense of self is. In the case of divorce, the separation from the issues of the parents can often improve a child well being. Not knowing what issues this child may currently have, I wouldn't be so quick to say that this current (and not necessarily permanent) separation is doing "damage".

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 10:51 AM

Ron.....It's pretty well accepted that several things occur when a child is removed from the home. As soon as you place them in foster care, you do damage. Now this may well be for the best interests of the child. ie., protection from abuse. Many agencies (ours here) designates a home or two as "emergency" placement homes. These homes are generally as open and cooperative as possible in aiding the child(ren) through a critical period, but they are temporary emergency homes only. For longer term, out of home care, another suitable home is found and as I said in my previous post, the first place to look is at Relative Care. If that is not possible then a home that can keep the child's sense of self is next on the list. You really don't want to move a child at all if possible, but in the emergency situations, it's a better option so the right placement can be found.

BTW, this is a huge issue in adoption! Cross-racial and cross-cultural adoptions are one of the forefront issues that even the most ardent adoptive advocates still fight about.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Áine
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 11:26 AM

Dear Blues=Life,

You said in your post above, "The ONLY mention I've seen so far about Irish Travellers has been here." Here is a small sample of what I am seeing in my local paper, The Fort Worth Star-Telegram, which is one of the 32 Knight-Ridder News Syndicate newspapers.

Posted on Sun, Sep. 29, 2002
Inquiring local minds want to know
David House
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

Notes from the pile of readers' questions here lately:

Why did you smear all Irish people in that case involving an Irish Traveller mother and her child?

Readers were referring to the "More on IRISH" jumpline that accompanied a Sunday Page One story about a mother accused of physically abusing her 4-year-old daughter.

Some of the nomadic Irish Travellers are known as con artists, and although the group claims Irish heritage, some Irish-blooded people don't want to be associated with them even in a jumpline.

The idea behind jumplines is to use logical keywords to help readers find the continued copy on an inside page. In this case, the keyword struck some readers as an insensitive indictment. Inoffensive keywords were available, including that dear Irish title -- "Mother."

-- Áine

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 11:45 AM

I urge you all to reread the post that has started these threads (Jeri has done well in citing it) and you'll realise that it was one the the worst opening posts in Mudcat ever. Nothing of what Larry later claimed was on his mind (not to tear the child from its community) was in the first post, just a rant with no discernible connection to the matter know at that time.

Larry, I had considered you an expert on travellers and Roma, but I see now you are just an advocate. Both, expert and advocate, may have the same amount of knowledge, vastly superior to my knowledge, but I trust an expert to inform me as correctly as possible, whereas I don't trust an advocate to inform me correctly except when it happens to fit the agenda.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:00 PM

Kat: In my post of 27-Sep-02 - 04:03 PM, I used the term "association" in the sense of (quoting from the Webster's dictionary here) "partnership" and "an organization of persons having a common interest: society". Maybe I was being too literal; you're right that the connotation of the term "association with" makes it sound more remote than "a part of". But again, for all the reasons I stated above, I do not think that the statement by Charles Smith, director of the St. Joseph County Office of Family and Children, is discriminatory or prejudicial. I don't think it's fair to say, "substitute 'migrant worker' or any other minority group for 'Irish Travellers' and see if it sounds like prejudice", because in this particular case there is a criminal element of this particular clan to be considered: part of this close-knit group consists of people involved in criminal activity, including the child's own mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:02 PM

Thanks Spaw. You pretty well summed up what I was trying to say - that these are temporary homes and while it is not helpful to the child, neither is being in an abusive home. Again, we don't know the specifics with this child and what her current state is. Based on procedures, it sounds like this case has followed the norm.

Until this is settled, we have to hope that this is being done correctly and not as a result of prejudice as some are claiming. Sounds like standard procedures are being followed, even it they are not ideal.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:38 PM

Yeah Ron, as I said somewhere, we don't know much about the caseworker or supervisor or what they are doing, but I hope they are following what is a pretty accepted procedure in the field. Active as I have been in foster/adoptive issues, it is still hard to explain the reasoning behind much of what we do. There are a lot of misconceptions about social services and the role of everyone involved. It's a fact for instance that the fewer times a placement is disrupted, the better it is for the child. On the other hand, a quick placement into an unacceptable situation is equally harmful. Agencies that have gone to the "Emergency Home" have had great success in using them. Remember that the caseworker/agency is charged with the welfare of the child and it takes a little time to check through the best possible options.......in the best interests of the child.

I have some anecdotal stories which are chilling about things that have gone wrong when agencies are driven by outside forces. Invariably, no matter what happens for good or bad, the agency gets the blame anyway. It is my best hope that in this case there is a strong willed caseworker and supervisor who function quickly and efficiently in the best interests of the child and not in the interests of anyone else. Every child also has a Guardian ad Litem, an attorney to look out for the legal interests and they can often glom up the works....or aid in the situation.....all depends on the GAL appointed. Indiana like Ohio also has an available program called CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate) which can be extremely beneficial to everyone because the CASA is looking at the whole situation and makes decisions and suggestions only in the best interests of the child. Many CASAs are well educated and experienced and can provide the middle ground often needed in cases like this one. I haven't seen any word of a CASA involvement at this point and the program isn't mandatory.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:54 PM

Wolfgang,

Having known Larry for many years and in many contexts, I can accurately state that he is both passionate and well-informed on this subject. He has immersed himself on this subject and others for many years. In person, he is clearer and more articulate [sometimes for hours on end]. Though I do not always agree with his selected issues, I do know he has always thought his stands out and generally knows more than I on these issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 01:45 PM

He may think and formulate clear in other topics, his first post here wasn't.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:17 PM

I disagree with one thing, and that is abused children wanting to stay with their abusive parents. I am sure that is true in some cases; I can't believe it is true in all, and they should have some say in it. I have been a school counselor; my first day on the job a student came in and asked me to report his parent. The second day on the job same thing, different student. I had several of those cases. I had an abusive mother (and a good father who did his utmost); I would have absolutely loved for me and my brothers and sisters to have been removed from her, I don't care how..in the middle of the night with sirens wailing. But she put on a good public front. The sainted martyr bit. So even if a kid is being hysterical at the thought of being removed, get some good social workers or whatever after they have calmed down to find out what their real feelings are on the subject. I bet a whole awful lot of them, once they are in a good foster home, would never ever choose to go back. Key of course being good foster home. Better an orphanage than a bad foster home without supervision and with beatings, abuse, etc....it is a complex situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:41 PM

Mary Garvey.......I have no intention of turning this discussion into one on foster care, but I did not say "all." Many children would prefer to be home.....I agree that many would feel otherwise, but I wouldn't want to bet the farm on which would be the majority!!!

Also, the word "orphanage" does not exist in my vocabulary, however the word "stigma" does. The stigma of being a "foster kid" is out there and bad enough. I hope we have grown past the "orphanage" idea includingseverala recent disastrous attempts at "Foster Home Communities"....read: Orphanage.

Pat and Karen Patterson
Adoptive/Foster Parents to over 30 long term kids
Emergency Foster Home Providers to over 50 children
State of Ohio "Adoptive/Foster Family of the Year" 1996
Certified Adoptive/Foster Trainer

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST,post counter
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 05:47 PM

Two days ago, McGrath of Harlow, said this thread should end (after he personally made umpteen posts to it).

Obviously, other Mudcatters are not prepared to follow ol' Kev's demands and have had other things to say. This is the 29th post since McGrath wanted to shut down comment on this issue.

McGrath of Harlow, is not the King of Mudcat! Long live free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 06:35 PM

Who said anything about this thread ending?

"But, once again, couldn't we move on here from this particular case, which is now in the court system, and turn to other relevant matters?"

Not the same thing at all. And in fact it seems to have happened, to a considerable extent.

I suspect that with the new-model Mudcat, with it's automatic thread- splitting, there is going to be a tendency for discussion threads to get longer, as different aspects of an issue get opened up and explored.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 03:15 PM

Why is this illegible? In one tiny left hand column?

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 05:17 PM

GUEST: T'was but t'isn't! (A temporary effect of the transition to the upgrade, I'm guessing.)

Wow, here's an opportunity to test the new "Make a Link" feature of the upgrade, since there's a Part 3 of this discussion to which to link! Here goes. Click on this link to go to Part 3:

BS: Traveller Discrimination in the US 3
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