BS: London Anti-War March & Rally

Subject: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 12:16 PM

What a tremendously successful event! Considering the sad news of police suppression of the march in Washington, one can only hope that the upcoming US anti-war rallies in DC will be as successful as the London event yesterday.

Any Mudcatters in attendance at yesterday's events?

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 02:00 PM

I didn't see it and dunno if any Mudcatters were there but I believe the TV cameras panned across a few celeb's, including Roy Bailey!

Don't think he got a mention though.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 02:53 PM

Yes, I was - where can I find news of the march in Washington?

I arrived with a friend to find the march logjammed along the Embankment, that's the northern bank of the Thames, between Charing Cross and Waterloo Bridge, and beyond it. It was supposed to move off at 1, and by 2.30, our end hadn't moved. We were concerned that we had no idea why there was no apparent movement upstream, so investigated along the Strand. Part of the march was taking a different route up to the Strand and along to Trafalgar Square to clear the jam. We saw that the end was beginning to move slowly. (We took a detour to the facilities of the South Bank, and went back across Hungerford Bridge). The march was now moving, though slowly, partly because of a constriction under the railway bridge. The diverted part of the march had now joined the rest at the top of Whitehall, where we joined it properly.

In calculating the figures, its worth noting that there were a lot of people wandering around off the column carrying banners, handing out leaflets and collecting names for petitions, whom the police may not have counted. The march was so late getting started, that numbers had to leave.

In Hyde Park, we heard a brilliant speaker from the Birmingham Muslims, a woman, who should be heard of again. One of the points she made was that it was good, after a year in which so many Muslims had felt themselves targeted, to be together with so many. Also George Galloway, who knows how to work a crowd. I'm not entirely comfortable with him. He said things I should have agreed with - we should not take actions which will make life worse for the population of Iraq, that we should try and solve the Israel/Palestine problem. He was much appreciated by the Muslims there.

As he spoke, many were still on the march. We heard an estimate of 400,000 at that point - someone had said 1m earlier. I don't think we really believed that.

The marchers were mixed, many of the usual suspects, Quakers, The Anglican Pacifist Fellowship, Peace Committees from various places - we saw Chesterfield, Chester, Ealing, Woolwich, Stroud among others. There were trades union banners, local groups of the National Union of Teachers, Unison, University Teachers. The usual supply of posters from the Socialist Workers Party. Others more unique - we found ourselves alongside "solitudinem faciunt et pacem appelleunt" (scuse spelling) - the ancient Roman Tacitus putting words in a Celtic mouth to complain that his people created a wasteland and called it peace. Most obvious were "Not in my name", mostly from the SWP, but from others as well. Oh yes, and "Make Love Not War", by someone so young that he wasn't even the result of someone taking that to heart the first time round.

However, the usual suspects were well separated by the many from the Muslim Association of Britain (I think that's right) - families together, or men marching ahead of the women. Not all of them were incomers. Some were the same sort of people who were with the other religious groups elsewhere. Some groups of males with no women with them. These groups were the noisiest, with chanting. Many of them were displaying their support for the intifada. The most effective chant went "Who let the bombs fall? Bush, Bush Bush." to the tune (?) of "Who let the dogs out?" Some people were trying to originate new songs as they went along. Others fell back on adaptations of old ones aimed at LBJ in their day. Some men with a sound system on a tricycle provided "How many roads.." and others of that vintage. There was never any massed singing, or chanting that everyone in a part of the march joined together in.

As we walked along Piccadilly, past jammed cars, we were greeted with hooting and enthusiasm from some of the drivers. It was notable, though, that the hooting came predominantly from men of a tanned appearance with Saddam moustaches. I didn't believe this when I was told it, but checked it out. I don't think I have ever seen so many drivers of this appearance in London before. But then, I'm usually in Sarf Lunnon. Other hooters were black, men and women. White drivers very obviously avoided eye contact. Some seemed a bit tense. As one would in a jam. the driver of a MacDonalds lorry especially turned right away.

We found ourselves alongside a group of women with white feathers in their hair. I thought it might be some reference to giving men the white feather in WWI, but one of them told me that they happened to have them, and it seemed a good way to keep in sight of each other. I told her that I had thought it was reclaiming the white feather, that it was not cowardly to want to avoid war, and she said she had not known that history.

We met a friend at the back of the stage who had marched at the front, where there had been a very good mood. She had been with another friend who was acting as a steward, so I may hear some more tales from the front later.

In the park there were a lot of subsidiary groups, including a Muslim anti-capitalist group who seemed to have a lot in common with the SWP, apart from the absence of women. Some Muslims were saying their prayers - the event had been so long that it had run from one prayer time to past the next.

It was a large march, and a peaceful march. It should be heard. As the march of the previous weekend expects to be heard. I am afraid that some may regard the make-up of large parts of the march as a reason to ignore it. Or worse, to regard it as an Un-British Activity.

I grew up afraid of World War. There were days at school when we were tense all day because someone had predicted the world would end. We argued about what we would do if we had the 4 minute warning. That children are now there again is appalling.

When Blair assented to the idea of paying the "blood price" for the special relationship, I found two poems in my mind. Henry Newbolt's "Vita Lampada" with its blood-sodden desert sands was one. Marriott Edgar's "Albert and the Lion" was the other. "What, spend all my life raising children, to feed ruddy lions, not me!" I've spent my life raising other people's children, and not to pay any blood price. That's why I went yesterday. And I want to be listened to.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 03:24 PM

Oh,and I forgot the two CNN reporters trekking through the Embankment Gardens, where one said the the other "Well, we could put it like this "You may think this sounds like a large number, but it's nothing compared to the turn out for the Rose Bowl..."" So presumably they have an angle to put, suggesting the turn out to be small.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 03:25 PM

Penny--wow, thanks for the rundown on events! For info on the DC marches & rally, the DC Indymedia site has links to lots of stuff, including interviews with people like Ralph Nader and Michelle Shocked:

http://dc.indymedia.org/

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 04:00 PM

amazing they could even find London since most of them cant read or understand a map

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 04:08 PM

Amazing who could find London?

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 04:33 PM

Also, I forgot the police presence - this was easy because there wasn't much of one. they were blocking off the Embankment Underground station - where the bottleneck was. Directing movement at the entrance to Hyde Park "Please move on through the gates and continue across the park, sir", where a few made a line across the "wrong way", some on horses. A line of half a dozen across the empty grass, walking away from the stage as if they were looking for something. A widely spaced line stopping people walking across the road at Marble Arch. Some telling people the Underground station there was closed. And that was all.

There were some lost children announced from the stage, a four year old boy, a 13 year old from Leeds who was going to miss the coach.

A crowd of people eager to speak to George Galloway as if he were a film star.

Loads of litter. That's the problem with all the free newspapers, though many people found them useful to sit on.

A young Muslim man from Bolton ready to help us find the way through the subways at Marble Arch, unsure if he himself would find his coach home, and explain how they managed the prayer times on such a day. And how to tell the time when away from watches and clocks, which will help my teaching.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: Biskit
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 05:25 PM

tis noble to have a cause Penny. and demonstrations are always a hoot!,(I'm a child of the sixties) But have you actually ever thought how dangerous this man Saddam is. Should we sit by and wait for more innocent people to die before we do something? Leaving him and those of his ilk to their own devices will not bring peace and saftey for our children, nor our childrens children. what would you suggest we do to protect ourselves and our loved ones from harm Penny?

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 05:48 PM

Here's another thread where the kind of thing Biskit raised is already being argued out.

It's good to have people reporting back about this kind of thing, and bypassing the media. That snippet about the CNN reporters Penny gave us indicates why.

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: DougR
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 06:13 PM

Penny: Thanks for that excellent report. Anyone who has read any of the political threads on the Mudcat knows that I am far more attuned to Bisket's concerns than the marcher's, but I thought you presented a wonderful objective report of what took place.

The CNN reporters were off the mark, I believe, if the reports I have heard of the number of marchers are correct. I think the Rose Bowl seats around 100,000. Reports I have heard put the number of marchers at twice that amount.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 06:38 PM

Penny, thank you so much for the very interesting and well-written report. One of the reasons I love the Mudcat is that we can share first-hand accounts of such momentous events as this will, I hope, prove to be.

I first heard about the march on our NPR; they said it was about 150,000 and I meant to start a Thank You thread, but got bogged down in other things that day. So, thanks guest for starting this one.

Thanks to all who marched!!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: harvey andrews
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 07:43 PM

Thanks Penny. Where did the beautiful people
Put all their beautiful things
The love that we carried on banners of smiles
Songs that we all used to sing

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 07:46 PM

And thanks to Doug for that comment. I feel the same about first hand reports from, for example, the Countryside March last week.

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 09:44 PM

Penny: Thanks for the report. Hey, I have just returned from the Washington, D.C. demonstrations and we heard the numbers in London were estimated around 450,000. We couldn't belive it but hey, it was a major deomnstration! Darned good work!

I'm not sure how many were in D.C. today but I'm thinking between 10,000 and 15,000 but hey, Junior and his boys have scared the heck out of a lot of folks with imprisoning folks without charges, lawyers or even phone calls so its gonna take time for the US to mobolize in this repressed state.

We did hear today that Tone Blair has done a u-turn on his carte balnche supporst of Bush's terribly unhuman and Satanistic desires to kill off a lot of folks for reasons related more to pride and money than fact.

Doug and Biskit: History is not gonna be on your side on this one. Neither is God... If Bush told you to jump off the cliff youy both would. Talk of "true believers". Man! Whew!

Peace thru Resistence.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 07:45 AM

You would have been glad, Biskit, to see the number of banners which were anti-Saddam, carried by Muslims. Yes, he is a major problem, but killing the people of Iraq (I won't call them "his people") cannot be the right way to go about it. I'm not sure what is.

Last week, one of our stand-up comics did a piece about Hannibal, and pointed out that in his day, those who started wars had a pretty good idea of what they entailed. Too many leaders talk glibly about the subject when it is not they, or their children, who go to feed the guns. I'm a woman, and too old, and have no children, so I'm in the same boat. It isn't for me to send others to their deaths.

I suppose I would like to see some ancient style of action along the lines of the Arab states inviting him to a conference, and then capturing him and turning him over to the ICC. Dirty and dishonourable, but limiting the collateral damage.

I've met a colleague who attended today. He was nearer the front, where people were also saying "when are we going to start?" after it had started. He commented on the good mood of the gathering. Only a few snatched words in the back of assembly this morning so far, but when I get more, I'll report that.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 09:55 AM

A little addendum to this thread, and others on the Pro / Anti War with Iraq subject.

The great musical Glossop pub, the Globe hosts a folk session with "Last Chance Bourrée" (of which I am not a member, but it is a session open to everybody) every Monday night in the downstairs room. Last Monday, it also hosted a public debate upstairs on the Iraq question, with Tom Leavitt, the MP for the High Peak constituency, which includes Glossop.

[I stuck my head round the door, briefly. Tom, a decent chap really, was trying to steer a course between some proto-fascists accusing him of cowardice equal to that of Chamverlain's over Czechoslovakia, and some committed anti-war people accusing him of comlplicity in mass murder. He fell back on anodyne matters of Parliamentary procedure ("there will be an adjournment debate on this subject ... ").]

I was urged by one or two of the anti-war people I know, to serenade Tom on his way downstairs with either "The Band played Waltzing Matilda", or "Where have all the Flowers gone?". I declined on the grounds of incompetence and technicalities ("It doesn't sound very good on a DADGAD ...").

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:31 PM

Here's some other views HREF="http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,801469,00.html">Letters on the subject

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: GUEST,PS again
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:35 PM

Letters on the subject

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 03:25 PM

And a report - there are more on the site - eg Tatchell saying that Saddam's actions were not mentioned. However, this was not true. Saddam was compared to Hitler on several posters (OK, so was Sharon, but certainly Saddam was not seen by anyone as someone not guilty of crimes).

Guardian report

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Anti-War March & Rally
From: HuwG
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 09:35 AM

Shameless plug for The Globe, in Glossop.

Folk session Monday evening, Jazz / Blues session Thursday evening.