BS: Northern Ireland Mess

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM

Belfast, I really was only sleggin'. Don't be so touchy. We don't really care if you say catholics or roman catholics. I have read and appreciated your postings to this thread. You seem to know what you're talking about and you obviously have on the ground knowledge of what's going on. And you can't say that about everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Bagpuss
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:33 AM

And as if Norn Iron didn't have enough problems with bigotry and hatred....

Blicky

BNP to stand for election in Northern Ireland
The British National Party is to fight elections in Northern Ireland for the first time.

The far-right group is to field a candidate at the next European elections.

A spokesman in Belfast says the party will urge voters to back its vision of keeping out asylum seekers and saving manufacturing jobs.

He said: "This will give people in Northern Ireland a genuine alternative to sectarian, tribal politics."

But the SDLP's Alban Maginness claims the brand of racism, sectarianism and ultra-nationalism offered by the BNP is not welcome.

The North Belfast MLA said: "Northern Ireland already has enough political madmen and cranks so there really is no need for this political export from Britain."

The move was ratified during a BNP meeting in the greater Belfast area last month attended by party leader Nick Griffin.

With fewer than 100 members in Northern Ireland, activists have set a £10,000 fundraising target to stage an effective campaign in the June 2004 poll.

Limited funds forced the BNP to abandon plans to contest Stormont Assembly elections which were set for next May before devolution was suspended.

"(The European election) is better value because we only need to get a £1,000 deposit rather than the expenses of individual constituencies," the spokesman said.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:01 AM

Belfast, surely you know that the phrase "Roman Catholics" is displeasing to a lot of Catholics.

Ah well, sucked back into this thread by the need to apologise. My friends from a Catholic background assure me that they would take no offense (they have been called worse) but that some might. So I make a small apology.   

I suspect that our guest, with his use of the verb "to sleg", knows somewhat more about life here than he would pretend. But still, a straight question deserves a straight answer.

My agenda. I am an atheist (hardline, dyed-in-the-wool) and a socialist (hardline, dyed-in-the-wool). And yet I once managed to achieve a remarkable unanimity of opinion from a couple of friends, one Protestant and one Catholic. They both agreed that I would probably burn in hell for eternity.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 07:20 AM

Ireland what about a music or song contribution, ag g`wan.
Some chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:19 AM

Belfast, surely you know that the phrase "Roman Catholics" is displeasing to a lot of Catholics. And here's you coming on all liberal and rational. I had noted before your authorship of a song about the Belfast Shipyards but you ignored my comments. What are you trying to hide?

(You do know I'm only "sleggin", don't you?)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 06:07 PM

Essentially that is how I see it, Ireland. "Hard to find a worse one"? How about the IRA in say 1975? Things change, too slowly, but they change.

Devils? No, and nor are the soldiers in the British Army. Human beings, acting the way human beings act in the situations they find themselves.

In time the IRA will turn into an Old Comrades Association, and die off - and some day there'll be Re-enactment Organisations like the Sealed Knot and so forth playing at being Cavaliers and Roundheads, when the memories of what it was really like have died away, and the divisions seem quaint and strange and a bit esoteric.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:14 PM

Thanks for correcting my spelling McG of H,so what your saying is the IRA are there to stop others getting out of hand or a far worse group taking rhe IRA's place,be hard to find one. Better the devil you know,I'd rather we had no devils at all.

The IRA will go but only in their own time and not at the behest of the British and when that happens were will that leave your theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ron
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:27 PM

"Please God, Give me the strength to keep my mouth shut"

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:23 PM

Being the most influential of all the terrorists/paramilitaries in Ireland they do set the pace. If they say it's over it is.

I imagine the thinking would be along the lines that, were the IRA to cease to be a paramilitary force, it would cease to have that kind of influence; and an alternative republican paramilitary force would move into place, especially if there were any sectarian violence, perhaps associated with loyalist paramilitaries. That's what happened with the Official IRA all those years ago.

I'd also think it highly likely that the IRA will be coming down on any unauthorised bombers, most especially any from within its own ranks, and probably quite effectively. "Quite effectively" doesn't mean 100% effective.

And it's probably more complicated than that, with bluffs and counter-bluffs and dirty tricks and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:11 PM

To quote the Pooka "I'm gonna regret coming back here...oh well..."

I know exactly how you feel, Pooka. I said to myself when I noticed this thread that I would only contribute to point what I saw to be errors of fact. But, like most other people, I can often be confused about what is an objective fact and what is my opinion.

But now it's cold wet Sunday night and it's time I was getting ready to go out and listen to some fine music and songs. Oh yes, and have a couple of pints. And hope that I don't end up in any discussions about politics.

To quote the Pooka once more, "Now, I'll try to stay away again."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:08 PM

Sorry Belfast, try this http://politics.guardian.co.uk/devolvedpolitics/story/0,9137,481305,00.html

Here it is if you do not want to follow the link: from Leader
Tuesday May 1, 2001
The Guardian
Now Mr Adams' partner in the republican leadership has broken that convention. Martin McGuinness has ended decades of denial and hedging to admit what close observers said they always knew: that he was a senior figure in the IRA, serving as the organisation's number two in Derry at the time of the Bloody Sunday massacre in 1972.

Suspose the Guardian jurnos like a pint aswell, only joking.

McG of H, are you under the impression that the IRA will prevent the dissidents from taking over, what happened on Friday? Being the most influentuential of all the terrorists/paramilitaries in Ireland thay do set the pace. If they say it's over it is, Adams admits the violence sets the peace process back,if he can do that then the loyalist crowd can and we can get back to the GFA again.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:54 PM

(I'm gonna regret coming back here...oh well...)

It is my understanding & recollection that (now former, I guess - ?) NI Education Minister Martin McGuinness has publicly acknowledged---in news interviews, and I *thought* also as a sworn witness at the Bloody Sunday inquiry (??)---having been second-in-command of the Derry brigade of the Provisional IRA on Bloody Sunday. I believe he stated categorically that he discharged no weapon; and, more circuitously, that (quote) "There is no evidence that I was armed". (Me, I should think a "second-in-command" would damn well be armed.)

McGuinness has also stated that the IRA has done some very bad things during the modern Troubles.

Please feel free to correct any & all factual inaccuracies in this recollection, which I have not re-corroborated by recent research.

Now, I'll try to stay away again.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:50 PM

I'll accept your point on McGuinness,but not on the threat of violence which was put to those who were expelled.

It is not what I think they might do, it is what they said they will do to those they expelled, thus offering future violence to those who go against the expulsion. Sound enough basis for my point unless the IRA were just slabbering.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:36 PM

So if the IRA put its hands up to everything it's been involved in and announced it was disbanding tomorrow and ordered all its members to hand in their arms and all that - does anyone really think that would have the consequence that the existing ceasefire would be maintained and that all violence or intimidation would cease?

Or isn't it only too likely that things would be likely to get a great deal worse? Catastrophically worse perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 12:16 PM

I do not regard punishment beatings as trivial and I couldn't trivialise them if I wanted. All I have done is confess my lack of knowledge. No shortage of pub gossip, needless to say, and sometimes I have seen the same pub gossip and specualtion reported by journalists as simple fact. And I apologise for repeating myself but there is little point in condemning the IRA for what you think they might do. For example, I have little doubt that Loyalists will continue to murder Roman Catholics (and each other) but I have no way of proving it or expecting anyone to accept my opinions as some kind of evidence.

As for McGuinness, I'm sorry if my earlier remarks lacked clarity. He says that he is not now a member of the IRA. I don't think he has claimed that he was never a member. If I'm wrong I'm sure you will be able to show me where. Given that I can only repeat what I said before.

"Martin McGuinness has admitted that he was a member of the IRA and never claimed that he wasn't. Or are you claiming that he is still a member? I have no way of knowing this one way or the other. If you want to insist that he is, that's all right but don't expect people to accept it as fact just because you really, really believe it."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 11:26 AM

If you want to see it as a stick to beat the IRA that is your prerogative. But do not trivialise the fact that people are afraid to return, or how many there are expelled, it was after all the IRA who said to these people they would get punished/murdered if they returned, no time limit, so by all means it can happen in the future. What are you saying the IRA are no accountable for their actions?

No one has lifted the threat so in real terms the IRA are still a threat to these people,it is them who used the threat of violence in the future to enforce their laws. And incase your that sensitive the loyalists do it also that does not make any of it right.

If the threat is not serious why did the man approach McGuiness outside Westminster asking for help in getting the expulsion order to be lifted on him,if the threat of violence was not real why did he not fly home on the same flight with McGuiness.

McGuiness has on numerous occasions denied membership of the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM

Martin McGuinness has admitted that he was a member of the IRA and never claimed that he wasn't. Or are you claiming that he is still a member? I have no way of knowing this one way or the other. If you want to insist that he is, that's all right but don't expect people to accept it as fact just because you really, really believe it.

Yes, everyone knows the names of some dissident Republicans. Recently I read an article by one in the Observer. But being a dissident Republican is not a crime.

Have the IRA committed murder and other actions which even by their own rules were criminal? Yes. And so has, for example, David Ervine whose vote David Trimble relied on to become First Minister.

And what next? Oh yes, people who have been ordered to leave the country. To be honest I know very little about this but you seem be implying there there's an awful lot of them. I hadn't thought so but I've been wrong before. As I said, I don't know. But I have a feeling that you don't really care. You seem to be looking for just another stick. I mean, there's no shortage of things to blame the IRA for, but attacking them for what you think they might do in the future? Aw, come on.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM

Belfast what in heavens name are you on about?

"Oh dear. Can we try to be reasonable? Saying a thing is so don't make it so". Martin McGuiness tried that, saying he was not in the IRA and wanted people to believe it probably most of all himself.

Do you honestly expect people to believe that the IRA do not know who their dissidents are. They have to know, to break away from the IRA you have to be part of it in the first place.

SF call for all sorts of inquires,why not into the IRA and it's spin offs. Here is a starter who was responsible for the murdering and disposing of so called informers.

Why are those who were told to get out of Ireland not coming back? Who told these people to leave and who is going to enforce the so called expulsion order if they do come back?

If these people were to come back en mass would we see a spate of punishment shootings or killings?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:22 AM

Who is to say those who have the information will not join the dissidents? It is not worth taking the chance.

If the spying was in response to the unionists leaking info etc,I would have no problem with that, giving them a taste of their own medicine so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:10 AM

Oh dear. Can we try to be reasonable? Saying a thing is so don't make it so. The IRA has been accused of murdering dissident republicans. I don't know whether they have or not. It's not impossible. But I do know that no one has been arrested and that not a single shred of evidence has been produced. The IRA has been accused of colluding with dissident republicans. See the previous three sentences.

None of this will prevent statements being made about events here as if they were accepted fact and incontrovertible truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM

These groups are linked they know each other, members in SF know who these people are and do not do the right thing and report them to the proper authorities. They are letting these people run around trying to murder those they want to represent.

We hear how such and such an inquiry is doing this that and the other to bring those who colluded with whatever terrorist to justice. Should the same action not be taken with regards to the IRA and it's spin off's?

One point though the simplistic bomb could indicate a lack of supplies, two pipe bombs and petrol rather than semtex.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:43 AM

"Belfast whats your comments on the recent bomb attempt? Do not bother to answer."

Fair enough. Oh, apart from the fact that it might have killed me, members of my family, friends, neighbours or fellow-citizens. So, to put it mildly, I'm not really in favour of such activity.

And it has been pointed out to me that my sweeping generalisation about journalists was simplistic. Good point . This is a piece in the Guardian about the raids
CLICK HERE

An earlier post states, "The fact that information was found proves the point that there was a spy ring, it make no difference how you sugar coat it or point to others." Now, there is no law requires us to stick to logic but this doesn't even pretend to commonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:17 AM

The point that the latest incidents bring out is that it doesn't need the IRA as such to start bombing for bombing to start.

There are enough people out there with the knowledge of how to do this kind of thing, on both sides. Focussing all the attention on the IRA is looking in the wrong direction. That's not where the real danger lies, and there is good reason to think in fact that it is neutralising a lot of potential dangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 03:03 PM

02:46 pm was my post.

Now that people are willng to resort to bombing again,all it now takes to to show the effect of the IRA having the personal details of security forces is to plant a bomb out side a security force members home.

The British Army Bomb Squad dealt with the bomb,the PSNI risked their lives when they were given the wrong details and had to search for the van and then clear the area, not knowing when the bomb would go off.

It is time for the nat/republicans to take responsibility for their part in the failing of the GFA. And the excuse that it is a few dissidents does not wash those few dissidents could have presented use with quite a few dead from both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 03:02 PM

If information was found which could not have been obtained except by illegal means, that would indicate that illegal means were used in obtaining the information. Whether that is "spying" or not is a matter of definition. I suspect that a raid on most newspapers and political,parties could well come up with information that had been obtained illegally. Probably including the addresses of people who would rather not have their addresses known.

The important thing is whether the information has been gathered with the intention of using it to wage war or carry out assassinations. (Not "would be useful" in such an eventuality - anything can be useful, including many things which could be useful for other purposes.) That hasn't been demonstrated in this case, and I suggest it doesn't seem likely in the overall circumstances.

As for Bertie Aherne's much quoted statement about not sharing government with Sinn Fein, I'd view that with as much scepticism as that of any politician making a similar statement in the context of a political set-up dependent on building coalitions where Sinn Fein's support was not needed. If he needs Sinn Fein support at some future time, I predict he'll make a deal. Or some one else will.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:46 PM

What about the nat/rep who do not want the GFA to work either, the CIRA have tried to murder people last Friday,to use some's reasoning I'd rather have dirty tricks which cost no lives compared to dirty deeds which take live's.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:36 PM

"I don't know much about the Irish situation. I spend too much time reading British newspapers and watching British television."

Maybe you should tell him that the Irish prime minister will not share government with SF while they have connection to a private army.

The fact that information was found proves the point that there was a spy ring, it make no difference how you sugar coat it or point to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:27 PM

Belfast whats your comments on the recent bomb attempt? Do not bother to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 09:06 AM

I had imagined that this thread would disappear soon but, given its title, I suppose it could last a very long time.

To return to the events that started this thread. I was in Berlin at the time of the raids on the Sinn Féin offices and when a friend told me what I had heard on the news I was completely mystified. A friend told me what was they were saying on the news – "an IRA spy ring at Stormont". It was incomprehensible.

It was only when I got home that I got some feeling of what was really going on. The raids on Sinn Féin offices at Stormont were the most outrageous publicity stunt. They had nothing to do with policing and the officers involved didn't even pretend to be there for any other reason. They looked for nothing because they knew there was nothing to be found.    They were there for the television cameras. And the willingness of the media to be used in this fashion is neither new nor surprising but still deplorable. What they found in one man's house would not have made headlines had it not been for the raids at Stormont.

Many Unionist politicians, especially but not only Ian Paisley, openly talk of information, which they have been given by police officers and civil servants from the Northern Ireland Office. Has there ever been a raid on their homes or offices? Of course not.

But it reminds me how difficult it can be for someone outside to understand what is going on here. As a man once said to me, "I don't know much about the Irish situation. I spend too much time reading British newspapers and watching British television."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:13 PM

Kevin McG., thanks for posting *that*. Amen, amen, amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:28 PM

JimmyC, thanks for posting that.

"Ireland" please put in some paragraph breaks when you post such long articles. It is really hard on the eyes to sort through when it is all run together. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM

If only we could all of us pay as much attention to our own faults as to the faults of other people the world would be a much happier and more peaceful place.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 03:06 AM

This post was started about " The Mess in N.Ireland". Some blamed Sinn Fein for SPYING. Others tried to explain that all parties do it, so also do the authorities. I suppose there are those who thought that I was just a bit of a hot-head by my postings, well I am not, but to show to some extent what the nationalist community have had to put up with for years please read the following - it is a report from the B.B.C. and a programme titled Panorama, this broadcast will prove that there has been collusion between SOME members of the police, the special branch and loyalist squads. , I hope Ireland and others get something out of this as it is documented by English men/women anmd not by any Irish nationalist. I am sure that many fair minded folk in England and many decent protestants in Ireland will be digusted by what some people have done and by the fact that they claim to be british.
One other note, this appears as a headline on the B.B.C. news report, yet the Belfast Telegraph's website makes no mention of it on their top stories.



Kevin Connolly
BBC Ireland correspondent



A BBC Panorama programme says elements within Northern Ireland's police and military intelligence collaborated with loyalist paramilitaries in the late 1980s over the murder of Catholics.

A man identified as a loyalist killer tells the programme - to be broadcast on Wednesday - that the targets included the lawyer, Pat Finucane, who was murdered 13 years ago.

Mr Finucane was a thorn in the side of the British establishment in Northern Ireland until the Sunday evening in 1989 when loyalist gunmen burst into his home and shot him dead in front of his wife and children.

As Panorama reveals, the story of who killed him and why continues to haunt the authorities in Belfast and London.

It also raises disturbing questions about collusion between elements of the security forces and loyalist murder gangs.

The central charge in the programme is that such collusion resulted in the murder of a number of innocent Catholics - among them Mr Finucane.

In one extraordinary moment, reporter John Ware sits in a car with Ken Barrett, a loyalist paramilitary who is unaware that this meeting and others are being secretly filmed and recorded.   

Barrett tells Ware bluntly: "Finucane would have been alive today if the peelers (police) hadn't interfered."

Barrett - described in the programme by a veteran detective as "a killer" - says a special branch officer encouraged loyalists to murder Pat Finucane.

They then tipped off the assassination squad on the fatal night that the coast around his house was clear - in other words that there were no police or Army patrols around it.

It is shocking stuff, but the programme suggests it is part of a pattern, and that at the centre of that pattern were paramilitaries like Ken Barrett, but also the still more sinister figure of Brian Nelson.

'More professional'

Nelson was a former soldier from Northern Ireland recruited by military intelligence and sent back to Belfast to infiltrate the loyalist paramilitary organisation the Ulster Defence Association (UDA).

In partnership with his handlers though, his job rapidly and dangerously expanded until he was supplying loyalist killers with intelligence documents from the security forces.

The aim, according to the programme, was to make the targeting by loyalists "more professional".

The result was that innocent Catholics were killed.

Since 1989, Sir John Stevens, who is now commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, has been investigating the allegation that shadowy elements within military intelligence and the RUC special branch were colluding with loyalist assassination squads.

Duplicate office

The obstruction he has faced was most dramatically illustrated by the fire which destroyed the offices in which officers working for him were based, in a police station near Carrickfergus, County Antrim, in 1990.

There was a story the fire had been caused by a discarded cigarette end.

But in the Panorama programme, Sir John says he never believed that story and makes it plain he believes the shadowy forces he was investigating were out to stop him.


"What happened was, round about the second or third day of that inquiry, we were given some notification that something might well happen.

"That's the reason why we had a duplicate office in Cambridgeshire where we had statements which made sure that when the fire took place we could continue with the inquiry."

The Stevens report is due out soon, but this Panorama report - with detectives who worked on the inquiry helping to paint a picture of this murky world of collusion and bereaved Catholic families telling of its human cost - seems to point to the conclusions it will reach.

In political terms, in Northern Ireland perhaps, it will not change perceptions - not least because republicans have been alleging for years that something like this was going on.

But the revelations will cause shock elsewhere in the UK.

Panorama has shed light on a murky and dangerous world, and will tell a British audience one dark aspect of what was undertaken in their name in Northern Ireland's recent past.

The nationalist SDLP's Alex Attwood told the BBC on Wednesday there now needed to be a full international independent inquiry into the murder.

The RUC became the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) in November last year.



Add this to the testimony of the secret soldier at the Bloody Sunday trial and you will have a better understanding of what I am getting at.

Sorry it is so long.

Jimmy C.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:06 PM

So Larry, what Native American tribe are you a member of?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:01 PM

Wolfgang, if you find so-called "radical republic leanings" so very off-putting, then you were never very genuine in your so-called "pro-catholic sympathies" and that is easily sussed out in your posts to these threads in general Wolfgang.

I suspect you are a very nice, well mannered, polite German gentleman Wolfgang, even though I have never met you. But anyone who claims to be persuaded one way or the other by conversations in internet chat forums such as this aren't very credible to begin with, no matter how many times you've visited, or how many books you've read. Your preference for using the Catholic/Protestant labels rather than the very accurate republican/nationalist and unionist/loyalist labels speaks volumes to people on the ground in the north. The Troubles in Ireland, from the time of plantation to today, have not been a result of religious difference, everything to do with national allegiances, ie British/Irish allegiances. The so-called religious aspects related to the Troubles are rooted in English history, and Henry VIII's and his descendants choices, not Irish history.

A lot of people visit Ireland and remain blisfully ignorant of what is going on day to day in the north. In fact, that is precisely what most people do. When they do visit the north, they usually are free to travel in areas which are no go areas for republicans, certainly, and stick to the neutral, safe areas, venues, and tourist destinations, rather than the areas where there could be political violence, just as most Northern Irish citizens do.

This thread is not about to turn nasty. You are quite conviently mislabelling the expression of strong opinions as rudeness, in order to score what I call "politeness points" in the argument, just as many nice, polite, well mannered middle class people around the world do. No surprise there. If more people allowed frank, straightfoward debate to take place, where people were openly questioned about the assertions and made to prove them either in word or deed, we would have much less violence than the amount of violence currently tolerated in the world today. And that fact has nothing to do with Northern Ireland, and everything to do with it.

Polite people don't call Orangemen bigots, do they? No, no...that would be nasty. An ad hominem attack. It seems that in some circles, such as ones you yourself travel in Wolfgang, ruffling well mannered feathers is much, much worse a crime than spewing a bigot's rhetoric.

And I note Wolfgang, that none of the Irish and British Mudcat members are rushing to agree with you either.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 11:57 AM

Hi Folks:
I stayed away from this for awhile, as my posts on the real politic behind the war are in the archieves here. I am still convinced that the people of Ireland, all the people of Ireland, from Cork to Derry where a pawn in the cold war struggles that the US was as much a part of as any. However, what I will add, is that war, all wars lead to a need to heal from the hurts of the past. When a loyalist spokesman came to the US to speak at on a progressive radio show (WBAI), I was there to speak about Indians. Well, he was being ostrasised by all in the green room. So, I made him a cup of tea, sat down with him, and shook his hand and welcomed him to the States. After a few pleasentries, I explained that we were on very different sides of the political divide in Ireland, but that now that there was a sease fire, I hoped we could presume friendship as we attempted to understand the implications of the facts of Ireland's past. We did not agree on much, but we began the conversation.
Let's all, on both sides of this conversation, begin by accepting we are part of the same nation (we Otways never go native, but remain Irish and Anglo Irish, where ever we are born...) so try to listen (write) with as much fervor as you talk (write)... be nice...
Is mise, le meas, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 11:38 AM

Wolfgang what facts did I leave out on Bloody Sunday, the site I ask people to visit tells the story far better than I can as it is from those who were there, the victims of the para's.

Go to any web site on Bloody sunday and you get the same account.I picked out this site because it holds a glimmer of hope, the two people meeting years later and trying to get on with life.

We all need to try and follow their example, to avoid the violent solution to N.Irelands problems and in doing so we need to look at ourselves truthfully.

"I always found that the catholics (I know it's wrong but I use these religious labels to avoid nationalist/republican etc nomenclature problems) had very good reasons for complaints and that protestant stubbornness and arrogance has contributed much more than anything else to the development euphemised as 'The Troubles'"

I agree with you 100% on the above.

Thanks for your reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 11:15 AM

Ireland,

I'm an outsider, of course, but I have been in Ireland more often than in any other country outside of Germany. If I recollect correctly, Armagh is the only county I have never stopped yet. I've spoken to many people and I've read more than two dozen books about Northern Ireland.
That doesn't make me an expert, of course, but I consider myself better informed than on many other fields on which I have an opinion.

I always found that the catholics (I know it's wrong but I use these religious labels to avoid nationalist/republican etc nomenclature problems) had very good reasons for complaints and that protestant stubbornness and arrogance has contributed much more than anything else to the development euphemised as 'The Troubles'. I think that the British government has handled the situation in a very one-sided and, in the long run, stupid way. As often, I rather believe in governmental stupidity and short-sightedness than in skilfull and planned underhandedness. Altogether, I had a lot of sympathy for the catholic side.

I'm still unconvinced that there was no peaceful alternative to the course of action initiated by, chiefly, the IRA, and later joined, with at least the same brutality but with more open sectarianism in their attacks, by protestant paramilitaries.

In Mudcat discussions on Ireland, I have often been irritated by the selectivity of the tales told. Outright falsehoods are very rare, but a selections of the facts happens often. The history is told as a mere succession of British brutalities or, on the other side, of IRA atrocities. The dead on one side have been 'murdered', the dead on the other side have 'deceased'.

Contrary to how some others here see you, I see a genuine effort in you to understand and to see the situation with someone else's eyes. I see more of that laudable attitude in you than I see in some posters who criticise you. Where I disagree with you is mostly in which facts you leave out, for instance in the Bloody Sunday description.

But I won't go into details, for I know from experience that threads on the Northern Ireland Mess are getting nasty very soon. And posters whose contribution in other threads I value a lot come over in these threads as less nice persons than I am firmly convinced they are.

BTW, Mudcat posts from posters with radical republican leanings have done more than anything else to make me less pro-catholic than I have been before my Mudcat time.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:12 PM

Den, before this gets out of hand I apologise to you unreservedly you had every right to come to the conclusion you did.

I meant to post this please accept my apologies.

Nigel Cooke was a Derry schoolboy with a Liverpool female penpal when he took part in the 1972 Bloody Sunday march. The 2 friends fell out over the Paras' actions that day. Now, 30 years later, they are a couple and watched Liverpool playwright Jimmy McGovern's "Sunday" on Channel 4 together. This is Nigel's story. The Bloody Sunday dramas have helped Nigel Cooke lay some personal ghosts Everyone who took part in the Bloody Sunday march, who experienced the trauma of that time, has a story to tell of how their lives were changed forever. Some are being heard at the Saville Inquiry, others may never be told. Here is mine. I was an A-level student at St Columb's College at the time. The world lay at my feet provided I got the right exam results. My interests were the usual ones – football, girls, music. And to a lesser extent, politics. You could not be a Catholic youth in Derry in the late 1960s and not be surrounded by politics. I had found a way of broadening my local horizons. I used to write every week to a girl in Liverpool. We were serious penpals, exchanging all our gossip, hopes and views on the world around us. We hoped to meet some day, perhaps if I went to Liverpool University. Maybe we had a future together. It was not to be … not for many years. After Bloody Sunday, I totally lost the plot with my Liverpool penpal, Madeleine. I called her and her army and her country everything under the sun ! My mother has reminded me – some 30 years after the event – that I took to my bedroom after the killings, retreated within myself, and she had to call the doctor. Shock was diagnosed - a state which, more or less, lasted 30 years, along with a seething anger. I stopped writing to Liverpool. My immediate anger was overwhelmingly intensified by the Widgery whitewash. This was the whole might of the State being brought to bear in justification of murder. They tried to dress it up, to muddy the water, to somehow blame the dead and injured for their own fates. If they could get away with a legal "draw" on the opposition's patch, that was as good as a win. And they did, of course. Their glee was such they couldn't help awarding themselves medals at the Palace ! They are still at it. The British Establishment has done all in its power to thwart the unpalatable truth about Bloody Sunday ever coming out. Oh yes, they now call it a "tragedy" and "regrettable". That's implying it was an unplanned accident, not their fault somehow. And they have never actually said "sorry". They indulge in sanctimonious "whataboutery" – what about all the IRA killings of soldiers etc ? As if that somehow makes things alright, "evens the score" as it were ! To be sure, we have the new Saville Inquiry, but I – like a number of others – will never accept that this is a truly impartial and independent investigation. How can it be when the Chairman is (once again) an English Lord ? How can it be when his rulings are overturned by English courts ? How can it be when supposedly-confidential material is leaked to the English press ? Good luck to the relatives of the dead and God speed to all who wish to testify before Lord Saville. But as far as I'm concerned, when the opposition appoints the Referee and makes the rules, it's a fix ! Now, you may consider all of the above to be the ranting of a disaffected cynic. However, after my A-levels I took a degree at Trinity College Dublin, winning a University Prize in my Finals and (only just) coming second in the entire university. Then I joined the Dublin civil service and spent 12 years (being promoted) in the middle ranks of the Department of Finance, at the heart of government, taking a Diploma in Public Administration along the way. So I'm a highly-educated and well-experienced disaffected cynic. My years in the Republic's civil service coincided with the multiple premierships of one Charles J. Haughey. If I was disgusted by the British, I was doubly-disgusted by Haughey, a native Irish bandit. Enough influential people knew all the fiddles Charlie was up to, but there were far more mice than men about in those days. Nevertheless, I leaked whatever I could to Eamonn McCann at the 'Sunday World', Gene Kerrigan at 'Magill' magazine and to other journalists. Why ? Two reasons mainly. Firstly, I correctly reflected (and this was borne out by history) that if there was fiddling going on in small things, then there must be worse skulduggery going on in big affairs. And secondly – more importantly – I had lost faith in the rule of law and respect for the State. Bloody Sunday and Widgery did that to me initially, Haughey compounded it. Moving on, some years ago I re-established contact with my Liverpool penpal. We visited each other's cities and then set up home together. We plan to see out our days together in Liverpool, which we both dearly love. It's a gutsy town, at peace with itself, sure of its identity, proud of its culture and history, confident of its future. In many ways it's like Derry, a port city full of music and craic, not suffering fools gladly and never afraid to put the boot into officialdom and pomposity. So it was with a mixture of pride and sadness that Madeleine and I sat down together to watch "Sunday" by Liverpool playwright Jimmy McGovern. Jimmy told it like it was. He told it in the Liverpool way and in the Derry way, from the people's viewpoint. That's how it was – a people's tragedy, a people's trauma. Bloody Sunday belonged, and still belongs, to the people. Not to politicians, not to paramilitaries and most certainly not to over-priced lawyers. But to the dignified, wronged people of a most loving, most giving town. And what came out was the unblemished people's truth. Tribunals in all their finery matter little beside that. As we sat and watched together and our eyes welled up with the memories and thoughts of lost possibilities, I felt something of the burden of the years lift. Perhaps, for us at least, this is the beginning of the end.

This link will take you to Mitchel Mclaughlin's (sp?) contribution to the Derry Journal http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7195

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:56 PM

If you bothered to go to the site Den it would have been obvious were my words ended.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:52 PM

"Your that bigoted when the argument is turned around given from a different perspective and is still in your favour you can't see it".


On what bases do you post your assertion that I am a bigot? I was responding to your use of the bigoted ramblings of Gregory Campbell. To be quite honest its hard to tell from your post where your words end and his begin. Or are his views your views aswell.


You won't find me quoting from anyone who takes a Campbell's stand on the nationalist side.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 02:15 PM

Nice try "Ireland." Paint me as the heinous guest so you don't have to be held accountable for what you are saying and doing.

Like I said, none of the Irish OR British Mudcat members here are rushing to agreement with you--and that speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

I never took time to read beyond your first line of your tripe guest, if the site is seen as you say, there are enough people posting messages of support to it, people who were there people who lost family and friends so your arguing for he sake of it. And that is what trolling is about.

You can slabber all you want I see your guest label and skip it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM

Excuse me, but if the purpose of the endeavor at the Derry Journal is to express solidarity with the relatives of victims, what the hell is the Derry Journal doing publishing inflammatory, hurtful crap like that published by Gregory Campbell, a member of a loyalist political party with very strong ties to the worst murderers in the history of the Troubles, which has delighted in the killing of Catholic nationalists? What the hell is a piece like that doing as part of this particular series? I'm not saying they shouldn't do an op ed piece unrelated to this particular series, but let us not delude ourselves. There is nothing decent or fair about publishing a piece by the likes of Gregory Campbell in a series being promoted to be for the benefit of the relatives, friends, and community members of a massacre.

Good god, when does human decency begin to enter into this? This crap about "balance" and "seeing the other sides' point of view" is part and parcel of the propagandist strategy to maintain the status quo. That is the sort of bullshit that leads to more and more obfuscation, which allows the status quo to carry on business as usual.

What is needed is moral clarity, not the tyranny of ideological certainty that all reasonable people should be on neither side but in the "middle" or "centre" where no meaningful change can ever take place.

Change in any society that has covered up a massacre for as long as the British have covered up the Bloody Sunday massacre, is what is needed. Not agreement that the perpetrators of the massacre believed that the massacre of innocent people was justified from their personal OR political point of view. A massacre is a massacre.   The armed forces of ANY country shooting into a crowd of unarmed civilians is MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE, whether it happens in Derry or at Kent State. THAT is the moral clarity required when looking at Bloody Sunday.

Defending posters of the sort of sadistic, sick rants that this "Ireland" person keeps posting here might be entertainment for you Wolfgang, but some of us have no stomach for it, after 30 years of it in the north. You bet I'm trying to shout it down. I don't want to here that murderers deserve our support and empathy, which is the essence of the argument this "Ireland" poster has been making all along, both in this thread and in others. That isn't balance, it is psychological stalking on the internet.

Mudcat members can welcome sickos like this if they want to, because the violence doesn't effect them. Its easy to claim that this sort of crap brings "balance" and fairly includes opposing points of view. It is the moral equivalent of someone coming in to the forum and saying apartheid was justified because it was central to the cultural traditions of the Afrikaaner, and that Sharpeville was justified because of ANC violence which preceded it.

If that is "reasonable" and "balanced" in your view, fine. Just don't expect that some of us won't do all in our power to shout you down for claiming so.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:50 AM

What guest also left out at the bottom of the page is this

Messages   
In occasion of the 30th anniversary of Bloody Sunday, we have decided to provide a space where people in Derry and across the world, can espress their solidarity to the Relatives or write about their memories about the tragic events of 1972.
Send your message for the 30th Anniversary

Read them,to get ivolved in discussions of N.I. and Bloody Sunday, it is only fair to take on board the views of those who were there and how they were affected. Hardly coming down on the para's side now is it?

Then waste time on the pathetic sites that the "volunteer" suggests, keep giving them more hits and encourage them to peddle their version of bigotry and terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:40 AM

Wolfgang, I'm interested in the grain of salt bits,that is fine by me I am interested on what points do you not agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:35 AM

I assume that people can read and think I fail to see the need for guest to do both, and in doing so peddling their own filthy version of bigotry and flame others in doing so. Ignorance the precursor of the Bigot, the site I refer to is pro-Bloody Sunday inquiry who have the decency to allow the view of the other side to be represented.

This leads to knowledge the cure to bigotry, I honestly do not give a flying F. I'll not stoop to that level, neither will I stoop to the level that all nat/rep, Catholics are in the IRA or hold agendas I'm not that insecure. I can accept the other sides argument and there is more of them that put it across without hatred than there is of people like you who do, that's were the progress is made.

What I will not accept though is some "volunteer" keeping tracks on my posts so they can use it as intimidation, playing on the fear that this arse is taking note's on me and sussing me out so I will not post for fear of some form of reprisal. This is common tool among terrorists they use it to keep people from stepping out of line.

This display of intimidation is a perfect example of why N.I. is in the mess its in, guests attempt at this is the best example I've seen of bringing the intimidation that goes on the in the streets of N.I. onto the net.

Do what I did guest join, become a member then you may have some right in telling other mudcatters how to think and what to read and who should participate on the forums. Oh I forgot you did make a feeble attempt at an excuse to why you do not join. But as making excuses for not doing the right thing is prevalent in N.I. what would make you do any different.

Slabber all you want guest because that is all it is, and while your at it read some of the rules of this forum and have the decency to respect them, or because your not a member do you think you can ignore them, that would not surprise me in the least.

For those really interested the site I mentioned is a good source of information about Bloody Sunday and gives an insight to what some unionists think about it. I suggest we educate ourselves and not leave it to the bigot who is full of hatred and prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:19 AM

I read Ireland's contributions with a grain of salt (sometimes with even a larger quantity), but I appreciate another voice in the threads about (Northern) Ireland. Ireland, don't let you be bullied into silence. I wish some posts from the other side had a bit of your good will and your ability to differentiate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:39 AM

And people might like to read a bit more about the UDP/LVF terrorist campaign from the BBC here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/factfiles/lvf.shtml

Like I said, "Ireland" has a definite agenda which looks an awful lot like the UDP/LVF agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:32 AM

BTW, the DUP's paramilitary organization is the LVF, the worst murderers in the north.