baritone guitar

Subject: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 06:50 PM

ever since I saw the Santa Cruz Baritone Guitar at Elderly I have been playing with the idea of owning one. I stopped in at Elderly last year and tried out this guitar and have to admit I was a bit disappointed with its sound. So, of course, I wrote to Santa Cruz and told them it sounded a bit "slack stringed" and that it didn't even sound as good as my Larrivee Jumbo, tuned down a whole step to D. They told me it was probably because the 'jocks' at Elederly had "refined" the set up to an electric guitar player's touch, and strung it with standard 6 string medium guage.

It's true, the guitar had 13-56 guage strings (what I use on my standard 6 string). So maybe that was the problem. BUT - I never gave up the hope!

Over the last couple of weeks I've played Celtic festivals in Texas with a really top notch Scottish folk music band called, Smithfield Fair - and their guitar player uses a C Major tuning, essentially a baritone range acoustic. He uses a nice Guild small bodied jumbo (sorry I didn't catch the model). It was setup for the new config, and he used standard guage mediums (13-56). It sounded great; close to what I am after.

SO; I came home, after playing with his guitar back stage last week, and pulled an old Ibanez (Ragtime) I had in the closet - and restrung it with mediums, dropped it to a C major. WOW - sounded great - next I put an 18 wound on the 2nd string, that improved the sound (but may be too much tension) and I beefed up the 1st guage too (to a 15). It sounds great - the 1st string can be a bit slack sounding if I am not careful when I strike it ...

Anyway - I'm convinced I need to do something about this baritone lust I have. I tried a low cost electric today (Danelectro makes a couple decent, low cost models) but I just can't bring myself to buy an electric - besides, the neck's too skinny.

Who plays a bari? Who has some wisdom to pass on? Any LOW COST options? Any conversion tips?? And I really think string guage should be correct. I bought a set from Elixer with 64 bass string. Sounds about right - but I'm afraid to put on my Ibanez (it was made for light guage)....

What do ya know???

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 07:03 PM

Yeah,it's a bugger when you don't close that HTML bracket correctly Jed.

Tony McManus has a baritone guitar and I think I am correct in saying that his bass string is way thicker than .064. But then again I don't know what tuning he uses on it. 0.064 seems just right to me for a low C.

Murray

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:32 PM

Thanks MC Gods, for fixing my poor HTML!

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Glen Reid
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:36 PM

Hi Jed, I had the pleasure of meeting you at Rick Fielding's imformal back yard git-together, this past summer.
I built a custom ordered Baritone guitar for Emmylou Harris about 4 years ago. She wanted somthing more bassey that those Gibson J-200,s she uses,couldnt produce.
Maple Burns (her stage manager) and I decided that a 28 inch scale, with a bottom C would be the ticket.
The body of the guitar is my own somewhat different shape, however I did make it about 1/2 inch deeper, for a more ballsy sound.
The overall result was very impressive and they seemed happy.
Due to her commitment to Gibson, she dosnt use it on stage, It is primarily a studio instrument.
Check out my web page for the photo.
www.onlink.net/~glenreid/index.html
If your interested, drop a line as I'm sure we could work something out.
All the best,
Glen

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:46 PM

Yes Glenn, I remember meeting you. Hello, and how are you??? Thanks for responding. I will look at your website after I post this message.

I am surprised Emmy Lou has an interest in the baritone guitar, since - but I suppose it may make sense for her choice of keys and chord forms, as well. I noticed she prefere the Gibson Jumbos. I love my Larrivee Jumbo. And it really does sound quite good tuned down one whole step, with medium guage strings - but of course, this is my primary instrument and I can't afford to keep it set up that way.

I had a beautiful Santa Cruz 000 and was impressed with his Tony Rice dred, too - so I was hopeful his bari would be as good. But it was NOT in the same range of quality, and maybe it was a set-up issue, as he claimed. But I'm dubious.

What about converting a 6? The scale could work. If the instrument could handle the pressure of heavy guage strings, could I not find one that might convert and sound OK?

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:50 PM

You might consider converting a Guild 12. It has a double truss rod in the neck, and the neck would be wider. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:53 PM

Great website, Glenn. I recognize Rick's mandola (isn't it similar, if not the same design?) I like the look.

I would love to talk to you about building one, but for now; it's just a dream, since I am really on a tight budget. If the record does well, I may be able to talk to you about it, though.

Have you seen the Santa Cruz bari?

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 08:56 PM

Not a bad thought, Mick. It did occur to me, but if I'm going to spend anything, I probably want to wait and save up for the real thing. I'll experiment n the meantime with no cost/very low cost options (like risking buggering up my old Ibanez). Now, if you want o loan me your old Guild ....

;-)

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:22 PM

Now............Jed..........you know that I love you just like a brother.......so I will answer you like I would my little brother........Fuck off you little wanker!! And if I catch you so much as looking at my lovely Guild, I will rip off yer lips and you will never get a date...........LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Mick

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:00 PM

'Little'?!

I got a Guild 6-string, but I don't know that it would take the added tension. Then again, don't I remember a thread on string tension that basically said the fatter, lower-tuned strings exerted LESS tension than the skinny high strings?

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:33 AM

I've never really gotten the point of Santa Cruz's Bob Brozman baritone. For one thing, If the guitar was made to Bob Brozman's specs, it was built primarily for playing slide. As Santa Cruz quotes Brozman in their blurb for the guitar, "It is a veritable LAP-PIANO!", which indicates to me that he plays it lap style just like he does his Dobros and Nationals and Weisenborns. Well, with all due respect to Richard Hoover and crew at SCGC, what makes for a good slide guitar doesn't necessarily make for a good regular guitar. How many people do you see flatpicking "Salt Creek" on a tricone?

For another thing, the SCGC folks' comment about the folks at Elderly putting regular Medium gauge strings on it doesn't wash at all. For one thing, Santa Cruz's own specs for the guitar recommends light gauge strings. The whole idea of having a 27" scale length is so that you can use a regular set of strings at regular tension and be tuned a couple of steps lower than standard. You should only need special gauge strings if you are going to try to get the sound of a baritone out of a guitar with a regular 25 1/2" or less scale length.

Bruce

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 01:01 AM

I have a Marc Beneteau baritone. Jumbo, maple b&s and neck, spruce top, ebony everything else, Schallers with ebony buttons, 27 inch scale, strung with D'Addario heavies (.059 to .014, low to high). It simply thunders in CGCFGC or CFCFAC. I still have a stock of .066s which I don't use anymore simply because I think the guitar sounds best where I tune it with the heavies. I went through alot of experimentation to discover the best strings and pitches for this guitar. I had strings as heavy as .080, or .070 to .018 or .016, and a zillion tunings, but ended up as I described above.

Before the purchase of the Beneteau I sometimes tuned a lawsuit Takamine 2 semitones low with mediums, or 3 semitones low with heavies. Even now I often have a guitar tuned one semitone low with mediums. I do this to accommodate my voice AND because so many guitars just sound better tuned lower, imho.

Set-up is critical. Nut slots, action, saddle compensation and height, truss rod, and fret dressing all will need attention. Intonation will be an issue if you go to extremes in tuning and/or guage.

I wanted something which could be strummed, flatpicked and fingerpicked, sounded bright up high and loud and tight down low.

My only negative observation after 4 years of ownership is that the heavy strings go dead faster than other strings I use, but this isn't the guitar's fault.

Hope this helps a little.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:29 AM

I've played that SCGC at Elderly's a few times. I really enjoyed the sound of it but you are right about the set-up.

I know that somewhere there is a site (maybe Frank Ford's) where there is a chart that does a guage/tension comparison. What I wonder is, other than all the set-up considerations that mooh wisely pointed out, the one set-up consederation I maybe wouldn't sweat too much is whether a guitar that is recommentded for medium or lighter guage strings could take the heavier guages once the lowered tensions of C tunings is considered.

...aren't some Celtic tunings so low that only cats can hear them?

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:41 AM

I've gotten a couple of instruments from Glen. I think my mandola was the first instrument he made. It's a little different design than his current ones, but has held up to some very hard playing for several years.

Also got a big acoustic bass guitar (believe I may have suggested the teardrop shape) that looks folky as all hell. Not being a bass player, I've lent it to half a dozen people, but I've used it outdoors (in parking lot picking situations) and it's got the volume. I also own a much smaller Fender Acoustic-electric bass (that I can't play either) that also gets passed around among my friends. No where near as loud but a great Fishman pick-up.

I've seen a couple of the small guitars and they're cute (!) and sound good.

Now, a while ago, there was an instrument that I DREAMED (literally) about, and asked Glen to make. A sort of fretted fiddle (rebec)....well it looked good, but just didn't cut it, volume wise....however, I've got ANOTHER bright idea, and I KNOW this will work. I'll surprise Glen next time I see him.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Glen Reid
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:59 PM

As a matter of fact, Rick's mando-thingie was the prototype of that particular instrument,(In 1991 Rick and I came up with the concept for it, a scale,somewhere between a mandolin and a mandola, truly a "little bastard") although I built a couple of banjoes prior to that and countless repairs, it was indeed the first.
As for this new vision Rick, I'm intrigued.

When I built the baritone for Emmylou, I went with heavy gauge Martin bronze strings and the bottom end was in your face.Had I gone with heavier gauge, I guess the testosterone level would have increased for sure.
All this talk has got me wanting to do another.
Glen

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 03:24 AM

I have my Washburn 12-string tuned to BEADA#B, 5 frets down. This means I can play C chords and they come out in G, or D chords and they come out in G: this is handy for accompanying most of the melodeon & fidde players in these parts, and it also helps me because I'm not the world's greatest guitarist and I have a tenor voice.

I must make the effort to get a custom set of strings (or at least a set all made by the same manufacturer). Also, I need to widen the nut slightly for the big bottom B string, which sits a little high: I have to tune it slighty flat to get it right when fretted, and it's the only one that gives me trouble when I use a capo. I'm reluctant to start something I may not be able to finish!

Steve

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:21 AM

Further to my comments above, one of the better reasons for a baritone guitar in a group is it gets a little more out of the sonic way of other instruments. One of my groups has guitar and bass, but only if I play them both, so the baritone lets me "get down". Many bands have too much jangling happening in the same range. That same group once tried to do a song with 12 string (standard tuned), cittern, mandolin, piano, and 3 vocals, only to discover the obvious...there was way too much happening in the same octave!

I have always believed that standard tuning is too high, though it is a good compromise set of pitches, and society is certainly used to hearing guitar in standard. With good strings and setup, guitars can offer a whole new world of timbre when tuned down.

Where the bari really shines is in a duo with flute or violin or voice. The extra range is very effective, particularly when one is looking for a low D (or lower) which just isn't available in standard tuning.

For what it's worth. Mooh.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM

good thread! Thanks y'all.

Glen, I gotta find a way ... been dreaming about your baritone last night; I'll take that as a sign from God that she wants me to work this problem out!!

The Santa Cruz bari, being set up for slide makes no sense, either. The one I played at Elderly was set way low. I thought that might be aprt of the problem. And their use of light strings on the instrument didn't help.

Mooh - you may be right about standard tuning being a bit too high. A baritone range for guitar really solves a lot of problems, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 11:39 AM

Jed - Are you going to the guitar show in Arlington tomorrow ?? There might be a few baritone guitars there or you might find a good beater to experiment on. I'll be there early on Saturday morning. Maybe I'll see you there.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:45 PM

Wesley - I may just do that! I'll see if I can't getaway tomorrow AM. Thanks.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: GUEST,pattyclink
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 03:12 PM

Keep talking that technical guitar stuff, guys. I just wanted to interject that I'm glad to hear somebody else has heard and likes Smithfield Fair. Their new "Jacobites by Name" is superb.

Here's a link to their site clidk (http://www.smithfieldfair.com/)

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 05:58 PM

Ovation made a longneck that tuned to D (in standard tuning) for a while.

I played one once in Rose-Morris, in London.

It sounded horrid, just like a washing-up bowl under liquid mud.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 03:19 PM

I never liked the Ovation bari either!

Yeah, Patty - Smithfield Fair, wonderful music, wonderful people!! Thanks for the link to their site.

And I agree "Jacobites by Name" is superb.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 03:21 PM

Wes - I didn't make the Guitar Show. Check out the Drink Driving thread.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 09:26 PM

Is Scatman Crothers playing
a baritone guitar
in this scene from the TV show
"Sanford and Son"?

"All of Me"

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: GUEST,Guitarfumbler
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 09:05 AM

I was lucky enough to find a used Lowden Baritone which is an absolute delight to play tuned C to C, ie 4 steps down from standard, using 13 to 70 phosphor bronze strings. It's no harder to play than a regular guitar in this setup and sounds lovely with a glorious low end. I also discovered Auden Baritones last year which must be Britain's best kept secret brand. Fabulous quality and beautifully set up straight from the Northampton factory, at a fraction of the price of big name builders.

Subject: RE: baritone guitar
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 06:37 AM

At a Blowzabella weekend in ? (Maggie Thatcher's old town) guest band played acoustic instruments but via PA. Some pedal or trick turned an ornery guitar into a Bass. Bass notes but not sounding like an electric or double bass. Cheating maybe.