BS: Fireman's Strike UK

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:53 PM

21 pennies a week per household.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:49 PM

I still await your sums, McGrath

Saying 'they should have more' is easy. Deciding who has less as a result is harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:43 PM

And here is a link to another report just above that one in the Guardian.

And here's a quote from the report, from a Liverpool Fireman on the picket line:

"We are not going to be bought off, with the service cut to such an extent that it becomes dangerous for the public and for us," added Mr Dooley.

"We could not accept that, as a result of taking a pay rise, we would have fewer firefighters on duty at night. Fewer firefighters would mean fewer fire engines and that would mean that stations would close. They quote statistics that there are fewer calls at night. But there are more deaths.

"We won't take 16% with some of these ridiculous cuts that will make our job more difficult because there will be fewer of us on duty. More people will be likely to die. We won't say 'Sod them - we'll take the money'."

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:27 PM

Three pence a day, now, is it such a lot to ask?
Perhaps if Tony Blair would care to undertake the task
His conscience it might wake agin, his heart it might give way,
And he'd agree to raise the Rates by three pence a day.

(And I know they call it "Council Tax" these days, but it's still the Rates to me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:10 PM

The cost of the strike is likely to be far far higher than the cost of the 16% deal

Of course it is, the 16% deal has been offered, so why don't they agree to what is already on the table?

I thought that you didnt reply to guests?

(It's that sort of bloody mindedness that helps to cause this sort of problem)

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:59 PM

"Deal would add 21p a week to council tax" - that's a link to a story in today's Guardian (rather than posting the whole story here.

The deal concerned is the 16% which the Fire Brigade Union have indicated they would accept, and which the employers (local government) appear to be willing to go along with, and which would have stopped the strike, and cleared the way for constructive talks about ways of improving the Fire Service; but the Government has scuppered it.

That's not 21p on the rate of council tax - it's 21 pennies. Threepence a day. I don't think there are that many people who'd begrudge that.

The story also includes a mention of some of the modernisation proposals the firefighters would like to see introduced - such as creches, to help women with babies work in the service, and separate showers for female crew members.

The cost of the strike is likely to be far far higher than the cost of the 16% deal. And that is just in terms of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:31 PM

Yes McGrath, it was a copy and paste from The Independent. I thought that was fairly obvious. Perhaps not.

I happen to agree with it, and repeating cheap shots from 'Private Eye' doesn't really get us anywhere.

You seem so entrenched in your views, that further discussion seems worthless.

So I won't bother.

Just one question: if we give the firemen/women what they want, do we give everyone else what they want? How do we pay for it? Some figures would be good.

And please nothing about MPs pay etc. The maths doesn't work

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:08 PM

Just a question to the statisticians amongst us. How many pay rises have Mp's paid themselves since Thatcher got into power? What percentage increase does that represent on salary since that date? By what percentage have public sector workers wages(an average will do) risen in the same period of time?

When you answer,comparative salaries would be better. Please remember that 20% of £100 is £20.00, but 20% of £1000 is £200. The truth is that percentage pay rises and unfair, since 100% of very little is still only very litle, 5% of a lot, is a lot!

They deserve a proper, decent pay rise-modernisation/reform is another set of terms for cutting jobs, increasing hours. We surely are returning to the old Britain with our emplyment legislation, working conditions and practices rather than moving forward.

If we do, who can blame workers for returning to the days of strikes?

What else is there left when negotiation fails?

The hypocrasy of government is unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:20 PM

I take it that was all a quote from "The Independent"? ("The Indescribably Boring" as a Private Eye calls it.

You note again that use of the word "reform", to imply that the innovations demanded are all desirable in themselves. An old trick and a shabby one.

I am sure there are changes which would be improvements in the way the fire service is organised. However my instincts are to trust the firefighters' judgement on what is needed rather than the accountants and the bureaucrats.

Paying firefighters a decent wage should be seen as the first necessary change, on which everyone should be agreed. And with that on board, talk about what other innovations are needed which would help them do a better job - and I am certain that the firefighters have a few of those to present.

It is of course possible that there are innovations which are desirable which firemen would prefer not to see, but that needs to be argued out properly, and not in the present atmosphere of conflict.

Here is a link to the Fire Brigades Union website. And here is what the union has to say about "modernisation" - making the same point as I have in this post:

The government scuppered the suspension of the strike – the FBU and our Employers had found a way forward. This is treating firefighters and emergency fire control operators with contempt.

We had a draft agreement drawn up. We were on the point of suspending action. The Government torpedoed this. It Is THEIR responsibility that the strike has gone ahead.

The Governments "modernisation" means cuts - fewer people on duty at night when casualties from fire increase - see Fire Statistics UK 2000 - on ODPM website, page 37!

"There were more casualties per dwelling fire in the early hours of the morning. The highest casualty rate was between 2am and 3am."

The FBU's modernisation means putting public safety first - WE drafted a fire safety Bill TWO years ago for this government who has FAILED to put it on the statute book.

Our modernization also means providing fire kit which FIT S women firefighters so that they are properly protected as ALL firefighters should be in the dangerous situations in which they work.

Our modernization means getting to victims speedily and assisting them speedily. FBU members already administer first aid at incidents – what we should not do is substitute for trained professional medical staff. This position is supported by the British Paramedics Association and ambulance workers through their trade union, UNISON. Both of these organizations have written to Sir George Bain on this matter.

Our modernisation of the Service means that £1 billion pounds invested in the Service saves £1 billion in property, lost days at work and NHS care and 68 lives! (Source – Fire Cover Review – Task Group of the CFBAC)

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST,The Independent
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:42 PM

The firefighters' leaders laid about themselves last night, accusing unnamed people of "trying to engineer" an eight-day strike. This is part of a pattern of trying to avoid their own responsibility for their disastrous handling of this dispute.

John McGhee, one of the union's national officers, gave the game away. "All we have been offered so far is an increase of 4 per cent, not a penny more, with any more money having to come through modernisation." In other words, the firefighters have been offered more than the 4 per cent in the first year, but the extra is conditional on changes in working practices.

The weakness of the union's position is laid bare. This is not a dispute about money, it is about the refusal of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) to accept reform. That has been the nub issue all along. Most of the point-scoring since last week's two-day strike is irrelevant. It does not matter how much George Bain, the chairman of the review of firefighters' pay and conditions, earns as vice-chancellor of Queen's University, Belfast. Nor does it matter who is responsible for the poor representation of women and ethnic minorities in the fire service, the FBU or the employers, both of whom are formally committed to equal opportunities.

The question now is whether or not the FBU will accept more flexible shift patterns in return for higher pay. Its initial demand for a 40 per cent rise to a basic salary of £30,000 was clearly unacceptable – and Andy Gilchrist, the FBU leader, has made it clear the union will take less. But on changing work practices, the union is immovable. That cannot be a principle for which it is worth risking a single life.

If the employers really were offering 16 per cent over two-and-a-half years, without significant changes in the way that the fire brigades work, that would be too much.

Firefighters are brave people who risk their lives to protect us. They deserve a decent wage. But they are already well paid, with a shift system that allows them to take second jobs. The public are prepared to pay firefighters more, but only FBU members believe that it is impossible to organise the fire service more efficiently. The Government must hold firm.

The Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:40 AM

refrsh, they are on stike again, this time for 8 continous days, as I write this The Right Honourable MP for Hull, Mr John Prescott is talking shit on BBC Radio 4.
It seems strange to me that this country cannot pay it's firefighters a decent wage, yet it can afford to spend a billion pounds on a minellium dome that was demolished after one year, and other stupid bullshit schemes! And before anyone says the dome was paid for with lottery money, well why not let the people that play the lottery decide where the money goes, how about a box to tick on the back of the ticket= "Would you like lottery money to be spent on silly bullshit schemes/and or end up in the pockets of grossly overpaid scheme directors? 9Tick here) or would you like it to go on useful public services/ cancer charities etc? 9tick here)"

I have come to the conclusion that almost all politicians are lying cheating bastards, I think the only decent trustworthy ones are Jack Ashley and Tony Benn.
9Just my opinion)!

John

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:34 PM

human beings are greedy and selfish creatures by nature

It's equally true to say that we are generous and unselfish creatures.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:03 PM

Well I cannot say i do not basically agree with you on these points. In the 3.000.000 million years of human evoloution, we have not moved very far up the scale towards enlightened apes. Neither any religious experiences or socialogical changes have made the majority of us much different from those humans of the stone age. We have more to covet and probably less to achieve. In that our achievements are mostly (sadly) for the benefit of ourselves than each other.

I don't see imigration as much as a problem if society makes the best use of the migrants. But when we (The government/local councils) and the migrants ghetto ourselves by distribution, culture and apparent worth then there is little hope for the future.Most of the immagration of the first 20-30 years was to ensure a supply of cheap labour, and therefore kep wages down and profits up, which is why the areas with the highest percentage of immagrants were the industrialised areas and those needing staff for infrastructural employment.

Affordable housing, by whom and for whom? Those with multi 1000's of pounds would simply not wish to live amongst the poor and needy, and the poor and needy would still need the support that is lacking.If we can (can we?) legislate for affordable housing, then we can legislate for other things that head us toward an improved lot for the working classes.

When considering the eastern block and communism, remember that much was against the will of the ordinary person, who still, as we do now, had little say in the running of the affairs.I agree the whole effort was not only disasterous, but cruel and inhuman. Those states showed the worst sides to human nature in the name of "equality", fear and control. I would not wish to see them return. It is a question of education (not brainwashing) on a grand scale, and though utopian it might be, it must be an ideal worth striving for and not dismissing, or we might as well all give up now.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST,Londons burning
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 03:37 AM

Alas Eric the viking,

Much of what you say is based upon a utopian vision of the world....I simply say make owning a home affordable by controlling property pricing this single    (and surely achievable) act would go some way towards putting a break on the need for larger and larger pay demands that become immediatley devalued by the cost of financing the very roof over our heads...I do think much of the problems within teaching and the health service not to mention public transport have occured through the virtualy unfettered immigration to the UK that has occured over the last 40 years...we simply have to many people for the system to cope...

The issue of the balance of wealth in this country is an eternal one...Yes it would be lovely to see a fairer society..the problem is that you'll be lucky if you can find 3 people who all agree how it can be achieved...human beings are greedy and selfish creatures by nature...and eastern europe must surely be a lesson to us all of how attempts to implement such ideals soon become monstrous dicatorships that are anything but fair distributors of national wealth..

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 07:56 AM

Bagpuss,

many thanks, exactly the figure I needed. And your remarks about the distribution and about the impossibility to draw conclusions from the data from one single night also falls on open ears.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:25 PM

We have people complaining that the plight of other public sector workers are not being addressed,with the fire fighters actions it makes people look at the root cause of why theses people are poorly paid.

This in turn highlights the governments inadequacies and their treatment of all public sector workers, so a teacher or nurse criticising the strike or saying what about us is be extremely short sighted. If the fire fighters get people thinking about how they are paid it will surely lead on to the rest of the public sector.In your own interest all public sector workers should be supporting the fire fighters.

Isn't it typical that we have politicians who lecture to us and do not see their own failings, like Mc G of H has pointed out we do pay more keeping a private sector afloat then we do for public sectors. But then Blair would not want people to figure that out, amazing example £120 mill as opposed to £400 mill makes you wonder which (ex)politician is being paid as board directors. Anyone know a poor politician?

We are watching the advantages our forefathers fought for being eroded, in as little as 50 years and whats worse the political party that helped bring about the NHS ect are killing it by using the same principles that their political opponents use. Rather than whinge about the fire fighters strike use it as a wake up call before we all end up paying for it and ask Blair what the heck he is playing at,out torying the tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 01:55 PM

There was a story recently that got to the heart of it. It was about a project being planned by the BBC to produce teaching materials. I think the amount of money involved was about £120 million pounds.

But there was tremendous opposition from the private industry which produces the same kind of thing. This was unfair competition, they objected. It would cost them sales of something like £400 million pounds, because the BBC materials would be available free of charge.

In other words, the schools, strapped for money to start with, were expected to pay out all that money - our money; several times the cost of producing equivalent materials through a public non-profit organisation.

In a similar way we are constantly told that paying for quality services, and higher pensions and so forth through taxation would mean ruinously high taxes - so we should pay for them through private firms - and the amount extra we have to pay in fact turns out to be far higher than the extra tax it replaces.

Or the TV licence we al have to pay is an imposition - and yet if it wasn't there we'd have to pay several times as much to get it from private suppliers.

We are being conned all the time. And since the media and the politicians of all shades collude in backing up the con most of us believe it, and rob us blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: JudeL
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 01:04 PM

Well said Eric.

The only thing I would add is the way in which those who control the media manipulate society to enable those who have power and money to maintain that powerbase by controlling what is reported and the way it is reported. Even in our TV programs the behaviour that is seen as normal and acceptable influences what society thinks and does. It may not be as blatent as some of the spin doctor stuff but it's there and far more powerful for being insidious and unrecognised.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: rock chick
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 07:48 AM

Eric the Viking, You have just said it all. I agree with you completly and utterly.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 07:22 AM

Surely in this dispute there will always be two sides as in any dispute.But as usual the themes often go; because I haven't got it-so they shouldn't have it or I've got it- but I don't want anyone else to have it! The problem is the unwillingness of government to redress the balance of how local government employees get paid, or rather how our taxpayers money is used.

We can always find massive (billions) amounts of money for the military (despite huge cutbacks) There may be a shortage of personel, but I suspect little shortage of armaments such as missiles, planes and bombs. I can't see us halfway through bombing Iraq into submission saying-"hang on, we've only got a couple of bombs left!!" Can you?

Consider how much money has been spent recently on; The Scottish assmbly, the Welsh asembly, the dome, the number of state functions, trips abroad for mp's, ministers, banquets,privatisation etc etc. How much has been lost by selling of council homes which end up in housing association hands. When gas, electricity, telecoms, railways, water were privatised the "little man" got to buy a few shares if he wanted to, ask yourself, who bought 1000's of shares and still controls these essentials? (Most of these things keep our political leaders in more than a lavish lifestyle!). It is our money-we all pay taxes.It is massively misused and wasted.

Would you rather see an effective health service with more staff and facilities to help us through sickness without too few ground staff. Doctors working 50 or more hours a week, nurses burnt out and quitting, effective teaching without teachers being burnt out by working 50 hours a week( Don't anyone start the long holidays crap-we don't get paid for holidays!)A fire service, an ambulance service, an effective police service. Good roads,safe streets, a sound local infrastructure with good local facilities. An effective public transport service.

We have banks, supermarkets, building societies, petrochemical industries, communications firms, energy suppliers etc etc making really huge profits. (Yes they pay tax and are employers as well)But much of this goes to a few over rich individuals.

It is unfair to call the working man a greedy bastard because they want a decent living wage.Everytime the little workers get a pay rise in private industry, the cost is passed on to us - the taxpayer/consumer. If you get a low wage, ask yourself, how much are my directors/bosses/shareholders getting? Will you refuse a wage rise because it will put up the price of bread, milk, shoes,newsapapers,hair cuts,CD's etc etc? I bet you bloody well wont.If you work for any private firm every wage rise you get is passed onto the consumer, so don't be "greedy bastards"!!!! But you'll moan on about local government employees getting a wage rise wont you? You'll sit and gripe about your taxes going up to pay for local government workers wont you? But you'll accept your private company pay rise with glee without thinking "my pay rise has just meant some other low paid person has to pay more for goods and services", wont you?

Lunchtime supervisors, dinner ladies, teaching assistants, cleaners, essential workers in all walks of life get just above the minimum wage. Firemen earn not much more.They can only be paid by the money that is raised from taxes!

Why to so many workers get such low wages? Because the balance of power in this country has always been in the hands of the rich and powerful!

Now that is fine if you think that being a director of a communications giant, and getting a bonus of X millions of pounds even when you make a balls up of the job is good, OK carry on (But no one pickets their head offices). Being an owner of a supermarket group and having a personal salary of X millions of pounds a year is good, that's OK too(But no on pickets the supermarkets).We still keep paying! We all moan a litle (well I moan a lot) when MP's who get a really good pension, excellent salary, fringe benifits, loads of perks etc get a huge wage rise. No one stops to tell them "you chose do do this job because you care about society"-you should do it for less!!!!! Because I personally think that there have been very few MP's etc deserving of the huge wages they get in return for the little they do for us in the last 40 years.Only a few politicians stand out as being socially and morally exempt from self centredness and huge personal gain.

When: your house is burgled,car stolen, you are ill,need an operation, your children go to school,your road needs repairing, your drains unblocking, you want a book from the library,and have to call on any of the services paid for by taxes be thankfull you are not paying the privatised rate for the job.

If you are lying sick and injured in the road or crashed in your car ask yourself, have I got the money to pay for the paramedics to help me?

If you are a rape, mugging or other crime victim or your relative has been murdered, ask your self can I afford to pay the money needed to catch the criminal?

If your house/car is burning before you call the fire brigade, ask yourself if I have to pay them to save it, me, etc Have I got the money to do so if they were going to make me pay the rate for the job!!!!

If you can afford to pay for these privately, then do so. You are so much luckier than the rest of us, but even if you could pay, I bet you wouldn't want to!!

But for the rest of us be thankful for relatively cheap facilities in our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST,Londons burning
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 05:12 AM

I would rather have a labour government than any tory administration...they by their very nature are just money grabbing greedy so and so's The one redeeming feature of labour is that they are largely funded by the unions....Alas politics is such a dirty business,but I cannot help but think that Tony Blair is fundamentaly a decent person,I think he has made rather too many decisions designed to satisfy the politicaly correct brigade and his government has been weakened by appointing the wrong people to key posts in his cabinet...such as a man who relies upon brail to make the countries law(it would be laughable if it wasnt true) how can a man who relies upon a dog to guide him down the street be able to fully understand and see the anarchic forces of drug culture,gun law,unfettered immigration not to mention how to keep a hand on possibly the worlds most devious secret service (MI5/MI6)and rampant threats of terrorism on the British mainland.. on top of that he is just about as charmless a politician as one could find..then theirs Mr Prescot apparently given the task of sorting out this most vital of industrial disputes who based upon his success rate so far as a cabinet minister is only kept in his post to apparently appease the union block vote into believing that our Oxford educated Tony can tolerate a few rough and ready working class types in his government...let him go Mr Blair our Johnny is a liability i'm afraid...then theirs women ministers such as Ms Estelle Morris who patently couldnt hack the job they were appointed to..I doubt she was much good as a teacher either..I had one or two dowdy teachers like her in my schooling days,and they were a dead loss....and lets please not mention Mr Stephen Byers who has become synonomous with "Liar"...I myself will probably vote Liberal Democrat at the next election...although I cant stand their leader "Peter perfect" Mr charles Kennedy,but they despite their middleclass core seem to be putting forward most of the rational policies these days it would be lovely to see them given a chance,but whatever happens to get our society back on an even keel we need the price of residential accomodation controled...if your local greengrocer suddenly started charging five pounds per spud and called it market forces he'd be lynched why is it we allow unfettered greed to control the price of the very roofs over our head....if this single issue was properly addressed then many other seemingly unending blights upon the quality of the ordinary persons life would dissipate

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 08:15 PM

We have no one to blame but ourselves, people bought into the Thatcher greed without thought or foresight,how many bought their council houses at 7-8% interest rate only to get clobbered by the hike up to ~ 15%. I remember seeing a programme were Thatcher was presenting the keys to one of the first people to buy their council house. Something like five years later and the house was reprocessed, where was Thatcher nowhere to be seen.

We have been subjected to market forces and who is it that comes out on top, those that have the big bucks. In the late 80's people were losing their homes and the rich were buying them up by the barrel load. As people got lost in the neg equity trap and had no choice but to pay the high mortgage or loose their home the government had them by the short and curlies. To lower inflation raise interest rates so there is less money to buy luxuries and we get the government going on about low inflation aren't we good.

This manipulation is part of the strife fire fighters have, we have lost public housing to the private sector,who are making a mint at all our expense. Low housing stock leaves little options but to look to the private sector to build new homes at inflated prices.

We cannot call the public sector workers mindless b-----ds, for wanting a solution to a problem our short sighted manipulating politicians have left us in.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 08:14 PM

I prefer Tony Blair to the kind so Tories who are on offer. But I don't think there'd be much to choose between him and Tories such as the one time Macleod, or say Chris Patton. As I said, a decent Tory government, still dealing with the appalling legacy of a series of appalling Tory governments.

Yes, the kind of things which London's Burning mentions could help, and if there'd been a government ready to think along this lines it wouldn't have got to this stage.

The alternative to striking when you are driven to they limit is to quit the job. But that's just another way of withdrawing your labour, and one that potentially does far more damage to the fire service - and how would that help? Striking, while standing ready to abandon the strike when lives are at risk, is a more sensible compromise, and that's what they did this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST,Londons burning
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:57 PM

Arent we confusing political rhetoric with reality....I'd still much rather have Tony Blair than any tory....If you look at it from his perspective and indeed anybodies balanced perspective Blair cannotr possibly concede to anything like this pay claim..doing so wont resolve anything...it will just open the flood gates for every public service to put in a massive claim...I agree the usualy canny Mr Blair hasnt dealt with this situation at all cleverly...The first clever thing he could is sack John Prescot he's nothing more than an embarassing tactless inarticulate buffoon..then to try and find some middle ground without stepping up payclaims all over he could offer the firefighters enhancements in the form of assistance with their mortgages and free travel for their families on public transport..of course in an ideal world (alas we do not live in an ideal world) he could get to grips with controling the pricing and ownership of residential property as I suggested in my ealier thread...Yes its radical..yes its socialist,but isnt that what he's meant to be politicaly....
Eventualy somebody will see sense....but none of these considerations justify the fire fighters refusing to carry out their duty..people must'nt burn while Tony Blair and the fire brigade union fiddle..

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:38 PM

So what is the way to get public services properly funded and the people working in them paid properly? Vote for it? But we've done that, twice in a row.

There was a time a lot of people really believed that electing a Labour Government would achieve that. And then they perhaps believed that, if somehow there could be a Labour Government that wasn't having to look over it's shoulder all the time because there was a strong opposition barking at its heels, it would stop being frightened to abandon the clothes itbhad stolen from the Tories.

All that seems like a sick joke now. The brand name is still there (a bjut modified), but the proiducr has changed. We've got a fairly decent Tory Government, a bit further to the right than say Macmillan was, and there seems every prospect of it sticking round a long time. But when it comes to dealing with the unions, it seems it's decided to show that it can even out-Thatcher Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:32 PM

Blair and his cronies had their brilliant idea that they could essentialy abolish politics by tailoring everything to suit voters in focus groups. They unfortunately forgot there are other forces in the country that you cant deal with by fixing the electoral process. Thank god the firemen are now reminding him of the basic flaw in his scheme.You can take a horse to water but you cant make him drink.
    And I do think McGrath has put his finger on a crucial point we should always remember.People who write that kind of touchy-feely drivel cant be trusted to run a pissup in a brewery. Remember the dome:never forget it. In a country full of clever people at that sort of thing, how come it was put in the hands of nitwits? The dome makes an excellent model for the rest of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:30 PM

Cobble people like you have to foot the bill, I'm like you but I realise some things are worth paying for, fire fighters,doctors and nurses are, the common factor being these people save lives.

We won't perish from not eating fish but we may do in a house fire,car crash what ever,when the fire fighters cuts us out of the car wreck so the doctors and nurses can treat us, something no other professions can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:22 PM

Interesting hypothosis, Rock Chick, that the fisherfolk are "expendable" because no one has to eat fish.

Very similar to the thoughts of Thatcher.

To put this into perspective musically, I repectfully submit that you click
Here,
Here &,
Here

As I said previously - yes the firemen are underpaid. This present campaign is not the way to achieve a fair settlement, and I am afraid it only provides ammunition for those anti workig class papers, the Sun and the Mail to continue bashing the unions and the progresive movement.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:17 PM

Maybe Mc G of H can shed some light on this, other countries provide cheap housing for their essential public sector workers, what can't we?

The word being essential public sector workers, we all need doctors, nurses, fire fighters,police to name a few. What is the sense of situations above were people are travelling 100's of miles to work because there are no affordable house's or a decent wage so these people can buy homes.

We blame the fire fighters for looking more money and who is at the root of the problem,greedy self serving short sighted politicians who created the problem in the first place. I think if the fire fighters were to resign en mass and leave it up to the government to sort it out some action would be taken.

Blair knew that the green goddess fire engines were not up to it, but did he have the troops train to use the standby modern appliances. He did not because I believe they were trying to show the fire fighters up by using the green goddesses as some sort of statement. Our anger should be directed to Blair and his peoples manipulative handling of the situation. They had months and now they are only going to train the troops for the modern appliances, typical last ditch efforts a trait exhibited by all our politicians.

All this grief for £2.20 an hour extra,which could well be used up providing for a decent pension, fire fighters pay something like 11% into their pensions as it is,look at the mess our government has led us into on that issue alone.

Atleast we can depend on the fire fighters to get us out of trouble if we need them, can the same be said for Blair?

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Cobble
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:10 PM

Fish is not the point. The point is in ths country I am well under half the national average and as usual people like me have to foot the bill for these mindless greedy b******s. With a government who are just the same with there 40% increase and a prime minister who gave himself a £50.000 raise the minute he got back in.

               Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST,Londons burning
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:49 PM

Ireland,

I and my family need a house to live in as much as anybody else....I would much rather houses be placed under a proper price control formula so that everybody can get into decent accomodation...I would suggest their sould certainly be no more than 20 percent profit permissable on a residential premises after the estimated cost of building such a premises..so my little 2 up 2 down shoebox would probably cost no more than £40.000 to buy...this would be a real move to social justice..of course individuals or organisations would not be able to buy up multiple premises....I wouls suggest nobody should own more than 2 houses...these measures would not only take the need for ever increasing salaries out of the system,but would by giving people a chance to own a home near to their place of employment would eliminate the daily and deadly stampede of workers all trying to jam into overcrowded public transport systems...here in London their would also be no justification for introducing the "congestion charge" which with all its cameras and beauracracy is a truly Orwelian nightmare happening before our eyes in London..and if not stopped coming to a major city near you (whichever country you may be in) very soon..
It realy wouldnt matter if my home was reduced to a much mmore modest value if all other residential homes were priced in the same way..short of me selling up and going to live in a tent..these artificialy inflated values are meaningless..

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:28 PM

No need to put up taxes for people with small incomes. There's plenty of room for putting up taxes on people who receive far more than they need, and blocking the tax fiddles which allow the richest people of all to get away with paying virtually no taxes.

And remember, any time you hear a government minister going on about how 40 per cent is far too much, that's less than they got - and that was 40 per cent plus of a much higher salary to start with.

In addition to which, 40 per cent was a negotiating demand for the firemen, not what they expected to get just like that.

And the reforming modernisers who came up with this package they are trying to railroad through are the same kind of people who have come up with these new byzantine and contradictory proposals for a new licensing system for pubs and for music. Can anyone trust the competence of these people, or their ability to apply their minds to real issues rather than merely juggling with jargon?

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: rock chick
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:10 PM

You don 't have to eat fish, it's a choice,thats not an answer though, but you would want them there to put out the fire or rescue your family, or cut you or a member of your family /friend out of the mangled car would you not. What you pay in your rates for this service is only a pittance, like their wages.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:01 PM

Will you set the ball running Guest Londons Burning, sell your house fo less than it is worth. Are you willing to lose £100,000 or so and sell your home to a fire fighter so under their present wages they can afford the mortage?

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Cobble
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:00 PM

The fireman get twice as much pay as me, who's going to pay for this rise ME, so they can be on triple my wage. My money goes down so there's can go up. As far as danger goes, in the last five years how many of them have been killed in comparison to the men that catch the fish you all expect on your plate.

                   Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: rock chick
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM

Guest: 15th Nov: My husband had to retire some years ago because he got blown out of a factory trying to rescue another human being, he has since had two MAJOR back ops the last one only 6 weeks ago... he suffers a great deal of pain, but never once has he said he wished he hadn't gone into the building. He has also since helped to rescue another person from a house fire.... he went in because he had the knowledge and experience, the general public and army do not.

He couldn't drive a train because he couldn't sit that long, neither can he stand or lay for lengthy period, and all because of a job. THESE MEN DESERVE EVERY PENNY.


rc

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:48 AM

And here is a quote from that allegedly independent Bain inquiry which came up woth those "modernising" and "reforming" proosals that the Government is trying to impose on the fireservice:

"Pay linked to reform will unlock the individual's potential ... new and exciting career paths, more suited to personal aspirations and circumstances ... enable the individual to take control ... coupled with a greater respect for personal and cultural differences ... as everyone develops their own careers and skills and embraces change, the higher performance which results will bring higher salaries."

Who can keep a straight face at that kind of managerial version of psycho-babble? Who could trust anyone who puts thta kind of stuff down on paper in this kind of context?

Spanish practices? Double dutch reforms proposals.

(That quote from the Bain report is is taken from a letter in today's Guardian)

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:21 PM

40 per cent was a negotiating bid. If you just ask for the most you can hope to get you won't get it. They'll settle for less than that.

The bundle of "reforms" being slapped on the table include a mixture of things, some of which should be negotiable, and some of them things which if they were accepted by the firemen would mean we had a worse service. No doubt there's a bit of bargaining strategy on the other side as well, demands that can be dropped. Unless the government actually is determined to do a Thatcher-job on the union, and force a strike as part of it, relying on their knowledge that the firemen hate the idea of staying out on strike and seeing people die.

When I hear people talking about "the right to manage" that sets off alarm bells. I've heard it too often from managers who've got the title and the pay that goes with it, but haven't got the beginning of understanding of how to actually get the best out of the organisations they manage. Hell, I was a social worker for twenty years, we know about managers...

I'm not interested in "the right to manage", I'm interested in getting the best possible fire service, and happy to pay my share of what it takes to achieve that.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: JudeL
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:30 PM

"The firemen can find other jobs" when people are driven away from a job that they believe in and that belief has nothing to do with money because they cannot afford to live on the wages paid, that is immorral. Expecting people to work in a profession which may be very stressful or dangerous, for less money because it is a vocation is immoral. Walking away from a job because you are not being valued deprives the country of a persons services every bit as much as going on strike does. The sense of priorities that is wrong is that of a government who veto a wage offer which would have avoided the strike because they want to look tough and throw their weight around so that they can implement cost cutting changes that will leave us all less safe

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:24 PM

No names - No pack drill ! I have seen the Welsh Local Government Association figures for the cost in increase in Council Tax if the 40% increase was granted. We're are talking 16% increase on Uk Band D - The other thought is that if this is conceeded the follow on demands would blow a very large hole in any local authority budgets.

Now (technical point) given the multiplier between the percentage of income raised by a Welsh local authority by Council tax, business rates, and the rate support grant, to raise income over and above the Standard Spending level (freeze, or cut off point) will require the whole of the surpluss costs to come from the domestic council tax ie 16% on each and every household. Despite the ' Barnet Formuler !'(SP)
I suspect that a simmilar figure would apply to English County ot Unitary Authorities.

That being said let me go on record as saying that that full time Fire Fighters are underpaid, and the basic pay scales as outlined previously by Catter Rock Chick are correct. In objectivity it must also be noted that Rock Chick does not mentiom the very favourable pension and retiement benefits that the Fire Services contractually grants, and this includes counting previous Armed Forces Service towards pensionable benefit time served.

In London and the South East £21K PA will not finance the mortgage of a house. I am aware that there are Fire men living in Caerphilly (160 miles from London or 120 miles from Reading who commute in for thier 4 days on watch. A near neighbour is one, travelling up and down the M4.

The question is what is possible - Yes a good settlement, but some of the Spanish Practices insisted on by the FBU must go, as part of a negotaited settlement. And the FBU will not gain that negotiating position by thier present actions.

Gareth

If any Catter's wish to discuss the figure in detail please PM me

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST,Londons burning
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:56 PM

Look forget the leftwing worthy political rhetoric,and the self employed mini tycoons who whinge incessantly about not earning as much as blokes who potentialy risk their lives everytime they respond to a call...I agree firemen and everybody deserve a decent standard of living...the problem is not pay...its much more to do with the cynical engineering of property prices...my house in east London cost me £42.000 in 1997 it would now sell for somewhere around £150.000 that cannot be right,that cannot be justifiable when everybody deserves a decent home to live in....No other staple commodity of life is allowed to be priced so uncontrolably sky high to satisfy the greed of property speculators,estate agents and I suspect the ruling classes who are happy to see the family home market rise to ever more crazy high levels as it creates large profits in interest for mortgage lenders and also traps the ordinary working person into a form of servitude for most of their life while they work themselves into an early grave paying off such onerous debts..If the price of bread and milk can be controled,then I suggest the price of bricks and mortar needs to be as well...when we can all afford a humble and decent home to live in then all those esential workers out there will have no need of inflated pay claims...this said....the fire service is their to save lives...And must not be halted by anything so insignificant as a pay claim...All those who argue that people die in fires every day are realy talking out of their rear ends...Wait my friends until you and your family are trapped in a blazing house and your heroes the striking firefighters arent available to deal with the situation coz they are busy shouting about low pay....and look who turns up,its captain mainwaring in a 1950's tonka toy..as you and your family fry will you die protesting the right of firefighters to strike....of course their are always going to be unpreventable deaths by fire...but when the service charged with trying to prevent them shuts up shop over a thoroghly unrealistic pay claim then something has gone wrong with somebodies sense of priority...

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:34 PM

Guest LesB, how much were houses 30 years ago, if you have bought yours you are living rent free with a great deal of equity in your home. Try to buy a house now days on the wages these people are getting, especially when they live in housing boom areas and are first time buyers.

In N.Ireland £2000 would have bought a modest house 30 years ago, which is £120-150,000 now days, so many are sitting on a nest egg of thousands, good retirement fund there. Fire fighters have not had pays rises with inflation or any real pay rises for that matter, so its not fair comparing your earnings in that way, at least you have had the opportunity to get on the home owning ladder.

Where would we be if all the fire fighters just left and took the above advice and changed jobs? They are worth it and lots more.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:18 PM

Yet we paid for the dome,wasted money on the railways and privatise other assets. How many lives did that save,what real service did it do for us except make some very rich.

Most people are griping because they want more themselves and are loathed to see others get more or just be that bit better off. Try fighting a fire with scissors and a water sprayer see how far you get.

To save our businesses or homes we call the fire fighters who do the job. Taking that into consideration why begrudge people a fair wage when they ultimately protect all our earning potential, should it be putting out fires at homes, warehouses, offices, airports or cutting people from wrecks. In the end they pay for themselves,as we all know the consequences if they were not there.

We buy into the idea that we get what we pay for,it has been recognised by the government, in offering a salary over £140,00 to attract the best in their latest job offer. What is so hard in applying that to the fire fighters.

The sad truth is people are being used, the politicians do not value anyone except themselves,thats why we see them raising their salaries but not others. We have only ourselves to blame,we let them get away with it. Having decently paid public sector workers is in all our interests, than say a £50,000 a year hair dresser,chef,carpenter or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 06:04 PM

When we send our troops to fight the Iraquis -will we consider how much the average soldier earns? Will any of these be refusing to join the front line because they barely earn a decent wage? At the end of the day -yes the firemen should earn more, and soldiers and teachers and police and nurses and doctors - and we should pay for it- but Goverments don't create money they distribute the income from taxes and we have to pay for the increase. The truth is -we do not want to pay- never have and never will -higher taxes are the British paranoia and no party who has a mandate for increasing the tax budget to such a huge extent would ever get elected. So let's be honest have an opinion that the firemen are right to want more -and go back to the drawing board on how we are going to pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST,LesB
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 05:46 PM

I have just started looking at this thread, & I am amazed by what some people feel they can't live on. Yes, maybe the Firemen think they deserve more, but don't we all?

My wife & I work for ourselves, and get approx £16,000 pa before tax etc between us!(& no paid hols)

Now, we are only humble hairdressers but I have been doing it for over 30yrs. We can still afford to live & enjoy ourselves ( by being carefull).
So I don't have a lot of sympathy when individuals who earn nearly twice that which two of us earns, says that they don't have a living wage.

cheers

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 05:26 PM

One thing that strikes me about this whole thing is a cynical use of language as a way of manipulating how people see the situation.

What I have in mind is the way that the proposals for changing the way the fire service, and changing the way in which the work of firefighters is organised, is described with the words "reform" and "modernisation". This is done, it seems clear, with the intention of ensuring that people in the media, and their readers and listeners, will assume that any changes described with those words must be desirable improvements. Obviously, we are led to believe, efforts to resist "reforms" must be short-sighted, selfish and irresponsible.

But as the firemen see it, the proposed changes include many things that would be actually undesirable, and would damage the ability of the fire service to provide the best possible services. What they are really about is cutting costs and cutting corners.

For example one of the demands of the government is that the ban on firemen doing overtime should be abolished. But overtime is a rotten way to run a service - it may make it possible to get by with fewer employees, but at a (non monetary) cost to the public.

I am sure there are ways in which the fire service could be improved, and that the firefighters will work to bring them about. There have been a lot of changes in the past, and the people who have fought to get them, often against strong resistance from the employers, have been the fire fighters and their union.

What seems to have happened is that the government has decided that it needs to show muscle, by breaking a strong union, and imposing changes which will weaken its ability to organise. A special target is the shift system that encourages firefighters to bond as working teams - and this is a target in spite of the fact that this kind of team bonding is a vital element in enabling them to operate in dangerous situations.

There is good reason to believe that a significant offer, well short of the bargaining figure of 40%, but well above what is now on offer, was virtually agreed earlier this year, but was vetoed by the government. The aim of the government has been to ensure a strike, and break it, and use this as a way of imposing a raft of innovations designed to weaken the union, to give other troublemakers a warning, and to curry favour with the more rational Tories who know recognise New Labour as the most effective Tory government they could hope for.

In the words of Engine 33, InOBU's song about the lost firefighters of September 11:

So tell all your children to tell all their children
never go past a firehouse but you make a brief pause
And thank all the heroes who work on those engines
Each day they risk all in humanities cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 03:22 PM

I have to agree with the above guest.

We live in a free market economy, so if you don't like your job, think it's unfair that others get paid more etc. CHANGE YOUR JOB!

No one is forcing you to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 03:18 PM

rock chick,

So why doesn't your husband become a train driver?

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 03:09 PM

Very sadly, every day in this country people die in fires and other accidents, they hardly make a news line except in the local papers.

But of course, the media will now publicise every single death, and the Government will wring it's hands and tell us that this is what the firemans strike is doing. I still support them, they deserve a decent wage.

Haven't you ever stopped to think that the wages paid to the workers in this country are determined by the rich? Who, mostly have little idea of what a struggle it is to raise a family, find a decent affordable house and try for a reasonable comfortable lifestyle.

How much is a politician worth? Wages for very little I'd say, since they need little qualification or skill to do the job, and yet they still vote themselves big salaries.

I don't care if firemen sleep at work, I don't care if they playbasketball, because when they are at a fire-they are risking their lives every minute for us!!!! And maybe you, next time.

I wonder if any of you objectors will tell them "sod off you were on strike and I don't support you" when they have to come and put the fire out in your house, or are cutting you free from your wrecked car-go on tell them they were not worth the wage they get-Get real

Subject: RE: BS: Fireman's Strike UK
From: GUEST,Londons burning
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 02:49 PM

Sorry but I do not feel at all reassured by a process of debate taking place by the striking firefighters as to whether they think an incident merits sufficient importance for them to abandon the picket line and attend...A proper and responsble fire service should be operationaly ready and willing to attend calls at all times without question...as was proven by the delay this evening after the first strike ended in the army not being able to hand back cover to the brigades until they had carried out normal equipment checking procedures...picketing fireman cannot be properly ready with all equipment and appliances checked to respond to emergency call out...When a fire or road traffic accident occurs seconds count...the brigade need to be on their way as soon as they are called by control...Sorry chaps the cover of the fire service isnt a service that can be withdrawn at the whim of militant union leaders....protecting life is far too important..