Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?

Subject: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:53 PM

Does anyone know of a source for whether or not John Sayles' film "Matewan" is historically accurate as to times, places, persons?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Mad4Mud
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:07 PM

Maybe this site will help...Click here

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:10 PM

Much as I love that movie PT, vo, it is not accurate as to real people. It's "historically accurate" in the sense that it is based on actual things that took place much like that and the Union situation in Appalachia at the time was VERY much as portrayed.....Company stores, towns, housing.....I think it does a good job in getting additional interest in folks to learn more, but no......Didn't happen, just "inspired by actual events."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:14 PM

In an interview, John Sayles said that he couldn't show how really bad the Felts Brothers were because it would've made the film TOO
lopsided!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:16 PM

Good site M4M....Pretty much tells the story from a brief look through. The movie used a lot of composite characters and the time line as to who did what to whom was altered to fit some of them and heighten the drramatic effect.

BTW, another "close (not quite as close as Matewan, but close) but no cigar should also go to "Harlan County Wars." tells the tales at a later date....much more fictionalized, but does a good job.

BTW, the worst thing in Harlan County Wars is that it was made outside Toronto. A lot of the scenes in the small frame look pretty good, but in the large frame shots, it looks NOTHING like Harlan or that part of Kentucky.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

You might look into: Harlna County, U.S.A., a documentary by Barbara Kopple
on this same subject.

Cheers,

                           -- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:35 PM

I checked it out on the Internet Movie Data Base and they give writing credit to the film's director, John Sayles. Here is the plot summary:

Mingo County, West Virginia, 1920. Coal miners, struggling to form a union, are up against company operators and gun thugs; Black and Italian miners, brought in by the company to break the strike, are caught between the two forces. Union activist and ex-Wobbly Joe Kenehan, sent to help organize the union, determines to bring the local, Black, and Italian groups together. Drawn from an actual incident; the characters of Sid Hatfield, Cabell Testerman, C. E. Lively, and Few Clothes Johnson were based on real people.

which also talks about the basis for the story.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: okthen
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 02:32 PM

From what I can gather, Matewan is the name of a town in America, is there an origin to this name? The reason I ask is that there's a retail outlet in UK with the same name and wondered if there was a connection.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Glade
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:10 PM

John Sayles wrote a book, 'Thinking In Pictures' about the making of 'Matewan' published in 1987.

From 'World Book Encyclopedia' 1999 ed. : 'In 1920, clashes at Matewan between miners & agents employed by operators led to the deaths of 7 company detectives, 2 union members, & the town mayor. This incident is called the Matewan Massacre.'

Glade

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 04:40 PM

Well, that is pretty accurate. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 05:07 PM

The West Virginia Archives & History page has a bibliography on the Matewan Massacre here:

http://www.wvculture.org/history/notewv/matewan.html

There is a colorful website for the town of Matewan (with current info on the Hatfield/McCoy reunion!) with a link to an article on what they call the Battle of Matewan:

http://www.matewan.com/History/battle2.htm

As to the question of whether the Sayle's film is 'historically accurate' I would say yes, it is an historically accurate fictional story of the mine wars in West Virginia in the early 20s.

Of course, if you believe any historical fiction can't paint as accurate a picture as historical non-fiction can, which some people actually do believe, then you wouldn't find it to be accurate no matter what sources get cited.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 05:21 PM

Interesting. If the article is correct, the film is pretty accurate -- it spreads out a story or two -- the evictions happening in two stages, not one, but otherwise it is fair. I saw the film last night, it is an excellent film. It is a bit heavy on the symbolism -- Italian mandolin player joins black harmonica player joins Anglo fiddler in early bluegrass ensemble, but otherwise....Thanks to all.



yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Bearheart
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 05:21 PM

A friend of ours, a biker from W Va, said his grandad was a coal miner that lived near Matewan and was involved in the situation portrayed, and that while many of the characters were fictionalized it really pretty much happened as the movie portrayed it.

Times haven't changed much have they? Just the venue... As far as that goes, I watched a friend's father die of blacklung in the late 70's.The coal company did its best to avoid paying for his medical benefits etc. And Ashland-Marathon's trying to put a pipeline through W Va and Ohio as we speak, even though the hazards are well-known and their record for spills is abysmal. What's worse this pipeline is carrying 4 different fuels, all of which are refined and deadly if they get into our water supply. It goes on and on.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 06:10 PM

Good points Bearheart and I too am sitting right on that damn pipeline.

I think we need a rating scale for historical accuracy. There is no movie that is 100% historically accurate and although Matewan is close, it still has a few problems. I think it may be as close as you can get though......So assuming Matewan is a 10, I'd give U-571 a 3 maybe. Pearl Harbor rates about the same.

I really believe that a halfway decent movie can inspire interest in a subject, but so many of them like Mississippi Burning (5) have so many holes that I am also afraid people take them as gospel. Mississippi Burning gives you a flavor of the place and times and loosely hangs onto the real story, but so much of it is pure hocum.........5 at best.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Janie
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 06:39 PM

"Blooding-letting in Appalachia" is a very well researched book on the strife involved with organizing the Miners in West Virginia. Right now I am blanking on the author and can't find my copy. Big Mick and I had a really interesting discussion at the Getaway about the lack of awareness in this country of the impetus behind the labor movement, and how truly dangerous and difficult it was. An old boyfriend's grandfather used to tell me stories of sneaking out behind the bar in Logan to pay union dues so that he wouldn't get caught and beaten by Pinkerton thugs hired by the coal company.

The labor movement is an important piece of our nation's history that is missing from school curriculums. If it were taught, perhaps more of us would be mindful of the slave labor and sweatshops we support overseas by our consumer choices, and would demand trade policies that protect those workers from the abuse earlier experienced in this country by the labor force.

Raised in West Virginia, I have been in North Carolina, a "right to work" State for a number of years. I am appalled at the lack of rights and protection that workers have here. Employment Sercurity and Worker Comp agencies are tools of the companies. It is a crying shame.

Sorry to be so long winded and to creep a bit, but this is an important topic.

Janie

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: BH
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 08:30 PM

Historically the film--as most films--takes some poetic license to make the point it does. Yet, the point, is one that is fairly accurate.

I find John Sayles one of our great film makers of recent history. His Sunshine State is one not to be missed---as were his Lone Star among others (including City Of Hope).   

The sad part is that his films do not get the acceptance of more mainstream efforts. Sunshine State was appreciated by many---then there were those that thought it was a paen to Florida and the retirement crowd---they left the theater in droves.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:07 AM

Haven't seen the film, but critically John Sayles work looks to be pretty well received. Regarding treatment of historical events by Hollywood it could have been worse - Mel Gibson could have done it.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: JJ
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:25 AM

An excellent study of historical accuracy in film is "Past Imperfect: History According to the Movies," General Editor: Mark C. Carnes. It contains essays by sixty historians on nearly a hundred films including "Matewan." Fascinating reading!

The film with perhaps the most scorn heaped upon it? "Mississippi Burning."

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:32 AM

I can't imagine how anyone would give "Pearl Harbor" anything above a zero (Zero?).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:55 AM

Well PT, the date was correct and the parties involved were correct. Ships sank.....Okay, 3 was too high.....I'll go a 1. The The Mel Gibson "Patriot" thing gets a 1 also.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: JenEllen
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:04 AM

Can Mel get negative numbers for "We Were Soldiers Once"? Cin-emetic.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:09 AM

I loved this movie. I've watched it numerous times and though a minor bit off as far as accurate goes - it beats the crap out of anything else I've seen. And the music in it - WOW!

Thanks for the links to the sites on authenticity -

Steve

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST,Greg F. [remote machine]
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:11 AM

I can also recommend the book Thunder in the Mountains: The West Virginia Mine War, 1920-21 by Lon Savage. After that, for a historiacloverview of the region, check out Night Comes to the Cumberlands by Harry M. Caudill.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:20 AM

An interesting film at times, and I loved the colour photography, but I remember being a bit nonplussed at the sheer skill of the harmonica player. Unless I'm mistaken, he pulled a note out of that little Marine Band that most players could only find on a chromatic harp. Perhaps he was simply the Howard Levy of his time. (or maybe Levy did the soundtrack)

The musicians WERE blessed in that film though.....to meet up as complete strangers, and be so perfectly in tune......well, I would have killed to have encountered that on a few picket lines.

Thanks for bringing this up Peter...think I'll rent it tonight.

Rick

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:25 AM

Greg, thanks for mentioning Night Comes to the Cumberlands. For many years it was almost a text on Appalachia and for anyone now with any interest at all in the region, it is a "must read."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:30 AM

Rick, I also enjoyed the music (not as much though) in "Harlan County Wars".....not a lot of it but pretty well done in the context of the characters and place. I was surprised to see Wayne Robson in the movie as I was only familiar with him from "The Red Green Show." I looked him up on the net and he's had quite a career. He did a more than credible job as an aging miner with Black Lung.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 12:20 PM

The best part of Matewan is the accurate discussions -- it isn't all "isn't the union great", there are counter arguments. The sermon on Potiphar's wife is a brilliant piece of writing, really one of the best pieces of screenwork I have ever seen. You get a feel for some real struggle in the minds and hearts of people -- especially as it is a company town. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 12:32 PM

One of the things I really appreciate about Sayles' screenwriting is his ability to leave out the fluff, and deal with the core issues. I just watched 'Passion Fish' recently (for the 3rd time), and the writing was just sublime.

But then, this is a man who understands stories better than any other filmmaker I can think of--don't forget, he began his career as writer, who worked blue collar jobs, accepted any kind of work in the biz at any wage in order to support himself and his creative endeavors, that sort of thing. No one "in the biz" in the American film industry does it that way--not even most indies. Why is he so different? He refuses to sell his right of final cut for financing by the Big Boys. Most indies end up selling their soul because they care more about "just getting it made" than getting it made right, or not at all.

I have tremendous amount of respect for Sayles as an artist of integrity. And there aren't too many people of integrity working successfully in any field these days, much less the film industry (US or otherwise). It is one of the reasons why Michael Moore is getting so popular right now too. People are fed up with status quo-speak, and the dodger art of compromise.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 12:37 PM

Passion Fish is indeed a killer movie Guest......Sayles is to be commended for his work.....I think you probably nailed it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM

"Passion Fish" did nothing for me, but I will see anything with Mary McDonnell in it -- she was the boarding house keeper in Matewan. She is really an extraordinary actress -- wonder what she is doing now. Trapped in "no movies for middle aged actresses" hell, probably.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:21 PM

I loved Mary McD in Passion Fish, but I thought Alfre Woodard was the most sublime actor in that film. Her character portrayl was astounding, IMO. Very subtle, and for that reason, very powerful. I'm a much bigger fan of Alfre Woodard than I am Mary McDonnell--I think she is the better actor of the two.

There seem to be a lot of fans of Sayles political stuff who haven't liked his more personal stuff like Passion Fish, Men with Guns, and Secret of Roan Inish. But I've loved all his work, because he is such a great storyteller. I think the man's brilliance for telling a quiet, subtle, but profoundly human tragedies absolutely shines in those films. It harkens back to the best of the Greek tragedies, IMO. I always allow creative endeavors to get away with being flawed in some way.   When the endeavor is done with integrity, that is. It always reveals something to me about the character of the creator of the story, especially about their artistic process, which I am always fascinated by. I have yet to see a film written and directed by Sayles that doesn't qualify in that sense.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:22 PM

A slight segue here: John Sayles made a movie (Limbo) here in Juneau a couple or three years ago. Fiction, of course, but we went to the theatre in droves to see our fantastic scenery. Scenery we could see even better the moment we stepped out of the theatre. Aren't people funny!

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:28 PM

Ebbie--so true! The first time I rented Secret of Roan Inish from the video store, it was from a clerk who not only was from the very part of Ireland where it was filmed, but her family's land was actually used in the production. She claimed the movie didn't do the scenery justice too!

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 01:32 PM

I never saw a John Sayles movie I didn't like.

DougR

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:28 PM

I enjoy “Matewan” every time I see it. But it surprises me that no one has mentioned the real star of the film... Hazel Dickens. What an amazing voice. I could listen to her sing those mountain songs all day long.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Mudlark
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM

Mark, I've only recently heard Hazel Dickens (saw Matewan years ago but didn't remember her!) and agree she is wonderful.

Guest, thanks for all the pertinent info on Sayles, a great film maker, a wonderful writer, as well as screenwriter...his involvement with the music industry (first book, can't remember the title) makes me wonder if he's not a bit of a player as well. I fell in love with his books and short stories, then the first movie of his I saw was Brother from Another Planet...such a great little film I've been on the lookout for all of his ever since. His films are not all equally "good" but they are all equally authentic.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:55 PM

Is that Hazel singing at the graveside, in the scene where they bury the young man? I wondered who that was, dang, Hazel, of all people.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:02 PM

Yes that is Hazel singing at the graveside. A lot of credit needs to be given to Mason Daring who does the music for all of Sayles' films.
He NEVER strikes a false chord. although, I must say that the so-called folksinger in Sayles'1st film THE RETURN OF THE SECAUCUS SEVEN was a more than a little grating to me.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:05 PM

Spaw makes note to self.........On October 22, 2002, 3:55PM EDT, PT used the word "dang" when posting. I am not sure what this means in the grand scheme of things, but my world seems to have tilted sideways a few degrees. I believe I will have to take a brief rest until the dizziness passes.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:09 PM

Jeez, CP, it just sorta sidled up to me, and thar' it were. Didn't rightly know my own voice, like being some kind of Roller. Tarnation. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:12 PM

thar? tarnation?............ohmygawd...........somebody get the salts......I feel.....I feel...........ohhhh.......

FWUMP

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Willie-O
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:26 PM

Christ PT y'all sound like y'were at t'Getaway.

Jumpin catfish. Holy moonshine. Gnight JohnBoy.

W-O slappin self upside the haid.

W-O

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:27 PM

Mudlark, Sayles has been & is "a player" all right. He has acted, strictly for the money, and written, strictly for the money, and done a lot of things, strictly for the money. He is quite clear about it though. When he acts in or writes for something truly dreadful, it doesn't bother him much if at all, because he knows the game.

See the Internet Movie Database for a complete list of all the stuff he has been involved with, wearing many different hats, over the years:

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Sayles,+John

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:56 PM

I have recently been doing some research on Matewan because my grandfather Ezra Fry was involved from family stories his involvement was ringing cow bells to keep company men awake and not to be able to fight he was also injured in the massacre (shot in the leg) I am still doing research but any one with info I would greatly appreciate it You can also look up Mary Harris (Mother Jones) Jones and find more info

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 20 - 09:31 PM

Any songs about the Matewan Massacre? Or Blair Mountain?

All I found was this one.

FIRE IN THE HOLE
(Mason Daring & John Sales)

You can tell 'em in the country, tell 'em in the town
The miners down in Mingo laid their shovels down.
We won't pull another pillow, load another ton,
Or lift another finger till the union we have won.

cho: Stand up boys, let the bosses know!
Turn your buckets over, turn your lanterns low;
There's fire in our hearts and fire in our soul
But there ain't gonna be no fire in the hole!

Well, Daddy died a miner, grandpa he did too,
I'll bet this coal will kill me 'for my workin' days are through;
In a hole that's dark and dirty, an early grave confined
I plan to make a union for the ones I leave behind.

(Written for the movie Matewan; Recorded on soundtrack album from
Daring Records)

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: cnd
Date: 11 May 20 - 11:33 PM

Another song made for the movie but much less well-known: Gathering Storm. Also originally sung by Hazel Dickens, it was written by Mason Daring for the movie. Less obviously topical, but I suppose relevant.

The only recording of Hazel singing the song I could find was a very low-quality recording posted to Facebook which seemed to be a phone recording of a TV screen, so instead I'll share Mason's singing of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZn7LrTMQvU

Other songs I found:
- The Matewan Massacre by Hammertowne
- Coal Black Miner Blues by Nimrod Workman
- Bloody Mingo by Jay Clark
- Battle of Blair Mountain by David Rovics or Louise Mosrie
- Blair Mountain by Great American Taxi

Most of these aren't really "authentic" folk songs, but many are very real and intentional songs about the events.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:59 AM

Doesn't "Which Side Are You On?" come from that struggle?

BTW another print history of the events is a pamphlet "Civil War in West Virginia". I last saw a copy 40 years ago and I've no idea how common it is.

Subject: RE: Is 'Matewan' Historically Accurate?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 20 - 11:35 AM

Which Side Are You On comes from a later conflict in in Harlan County
Kentucky.

Mark Ross