BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?

Subject: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:25 PM

Along with sleight-of-hand artists, misdirection is also a time-honored political tool.

I keep saying that while we are busy watching what's going on with our foreign policy, if we neglect to keep a sharp eye on what's happening here at home, we do so at our extreme peril.

The following is self-explanatory:—

USA PATRIOT ACT: LIBRARIANS KEEP QUIET
Newsweek, 10/28/02
http://www.msnbc.com/news/823009.asp

Usually librarians are the ones who tell people to keep quiet. But ever
since Congress passed a series of laws aimed at helping law enforcement
track down terrorists, it's the librarians who are under orders not to talk.

The USA Patriot Act allows the FBI broad new powers to check borrower
records, Internet use and any other materials that could help track client
reading histories (it also applies to booksellers and could be used to
obtain medical records). The law contains a gag order threatening
librarians with criminal prosecution if they tell anyone of the FBI visits.
The FBI must get a warrant from a judge, but the standard is lower than
probable cause. And the evidence, too, is secret.

For more than a month the ACLU has been searching for a librarian who
doesn't want to cooperate and is willing to serve as a test case in the
courts. "This statute trumps protections in place in 49 of 50 states, with
consequences that could evoke images of Big Brother," says the ACLU's
Gregory T. Nojeim. But librarians may be too good at keeping quiet. In
February 2002, just a few months after the law's passage, the University of
Illinois Library Research Center anonymously surveyed more than 1,000
public libraries. Already 85, or 8 percent, had been forced to reveal
patron information. Library officials estimate there must be hundreds more
by now. Yet despite widespread outrage among librarians, so far no one has
come forward, and the statute remains untested in the courts. The search
for Conan the Librarian continues. There's little chance that the role will
be filled by the nation's most famous librarian: Laura Bush. . . .

-------------

I don't think any comment from me is necessary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:34 PM

We all knew that having Dubya was going to be an assault on our civil liberties. What is most unfortunate is that the asswipe was President on 9/11. For all of you wanting a direct link......

American Civil Liberties Union

Scary times my friend....and we all have to be on guard that what we sacrifice for "safety" is indeed worth it....and most times it isn't. The toothpaste took many years to be put in the tube and Bush is squeezing hard to get it out. It will be equally hard to get it back in again.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:45 PM

Go back to the good old days when there was a card in a pocket inside each library book. When borrowed, the card was removed and placed in the reader's card in a file for the due date of return, and the due return date was stamped in the book. On the book's return the card was replaced in the book.
This meant that:
The number of times a book was issued was counted by the number of date stamps (for royalty payments)
Overdue books were identified by the fact that the cards were in a file for the return date.
The borrower's card showed no record of any previous borrowings.

"Sorry, security agency, we have no record of who borrowed 'How To Build An Atomic Bomb'"

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:51 PM

Thanks for the link, Spaw.

The big problem is that once these rights are taken away, they are almost never given back voluntarily. It's a lot easier to scream and shout before it happens. You've got to watch the buggers every second.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 06:35 PM

The cynic in me suggests INFORMATION OVERLOAD

IE. set it up so that the monitoring systems are deluged with info.
As a taster suggest every E-Mail or telephone conversation should open with "Bomb Bomb Bomb" "Assasinate Assasinate Assainate".

Now that should get the voice/text recognition machines clicking in - the fact that the rest of the conversation will be inocuous like wishing your aunt a happy birthday will flood the analasis machine.

We did this in the 1984/5 Miners strike in the UK, when it was well acepte that the Security Services were tapping telephones every where.

Now Books to request (USA rare or obscure)

The Dam Busters - Paul Brickhill

Homage to Catelonia - George Orwell

Asterix in Egypt

Fly for your life - Larry Forester

The Gun - C S Forrester

That should snarl the computers

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 06:59 PM

Equally scarey as the Homeland Security Act is Bush;s Supreme Court which is nothing more than a Kangaroo Court. Oh sure, tehy'll over turn some of the lesser parts of the Act in time but will leave the motherload intact.

Like I've said before, democracy was put on hold the day that court called off the Florida recount and will stay on hold until the imposters who make up this regime are expelled. Problem is, these folks domn't believe in democracy so and are not above declaring martial law and calling off the elections in '04 if things look bad for them.

Heck, things look bad for them now except the media is scared half out of its collective mind and is goosestepping to whatever Bush wants.

And, yeah, I'm sure that the governemnt has an active file on me and a number of folks here at Mudcat. Yeah, I'm sure that push come to shove, and Bush calls martial law, that a few of us will be collected for doing nothing but disagreeing with the Bush regime and doing our part to keep intact our deomocratic *reponsibilities* as Thomas Jefferson would advice us to do if he were alive today.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:32 PM

This is not good. What is even worse is that no one is willing to be a test case.
. I guess that job security is too important a thing to jepordize for a little thing like freedom.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: khandu
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:06 PM

Like a big pimple, it all will come to a pus-filled head.

Everyone is angry. And the anger grows. Fill in the blanks; the ______ are angry with the ______, who are angry with the ______, who hate the ______; on and on and on it goes. Wheels go round and round.

Someday, maybe soon, maybe later, but someday, the wheels are gonna fall off and burn, the pimple is gonna burst, pus will be splattered all over the earth.

It appears to be inevitable. I see no other resolution.

What Don posted was just more pressure being squeezed on the pimple.

I am sad.

k

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: BH
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:16 PM

Just a point of information here. I head the board of our local libraY.

Now, depending what program is used on the computers , many do not keep any history of books or other material checked out by patrons. Only the current ones for overdue charges---should that occur.

When, years back ( ah, the old days) when the librarians had pencils with a rubber date stamp for the due date to stamp on a card everyone could know who checked what out.   

1984 is at hand, but it is not really at the library---at a lot of other places...I will say, though, that there might be some library systems that do keep histories of check-outs--ours does not.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:28 AM

Don,

Thanks for posting that piece. I work in a university research library where there is the double-whammy of easily obtained technical information and one of the highest percentages of foreign students in the state. I'm not a librarian, but I the comments above about the anonymity of database and book use reflect the atmosphere here--records are not kept of many things. On purpose.

I live in a state with a double-whammy: those of us who aren't of Bush's persuasion are represented by a pResident we didn't elect and by a governor we didn't elect (he filled the job once Bush left for D.C.). I must say that I am heartened by the anti-war demonstrations that are beginning to take place around the country. I hope we'll have some in Texas (there was one on my campus but I didn't realize what it was until later, after I'd walked past it. Must have been pretty spontaneous and had no signage. Perhaps a preservation tactic!) I went in for early voting today, and for the first time I voted a straight democratic ticket. I usually work my way down the list, voting fairly independently, but I can't at this point even afford to vote for the congresswoman from our district (who I like) who is a republican.

In the "For What It's Worth" Department, Don, we BOTH know of a former reference librarian who would be appalled at the state of things today and would have enjoyed the prospect of doing everything in his power to subvert anything put into law by Bush and his cronies Cheney and Ashcroft.

Maggie (daughter of said librarian, who went by the initials of John Dwyer)

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 04:57 PM

OK Folks, everybody back in the classroom, there's nothing out here to see, move along, etc.

Now for something in the way of reality.

This has always been happening. With a court order, which is always issued on reasonable suspicion, and NEVER on probable cause (think arrest children...) you are allowed to request a hearing, but after the hearing, and a judge has issued an order, YOU GO TO JAIL IF YOU DON"T COMPLY... And under the FICA statutes, much of the proceedings were under gag order, though usually for a stated period of time, like 90 days. And this has been going on for something close to fifty years. And it doesn't matter what state laws say, Federal Law trumps all, and always has... The ALCU has been litigating these issues for years and losing most of the time... The only thing new is who they cull every time they scream about fresh or potential abuses...

OK, Move along...

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Glade
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 05:23 PM

Here's a link to the American Libraries Association site on Privacy issues.

http://www.ala.org/washoff/privacy.html


Glade

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 05:30 PM

Yeh, right Claymore! You sly devil... Your ironic wit just made me laugh so hard that I spilled my coffee! Nothing to see here... just like they say at car crashes and terrorist attacks... OK... move along!... nothing to see here... just go to your homes and watch the news tonight... BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, DON"T TRY TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE SCENE ALL AROUND YOU (as if this was a democracy or something) ... and OH! Those revolving knives and that blood spillway have always been there... relax!... You are a sheep, remember??? Born to follow the leader to be sheared of your wool (labor), and slaughtered for your meat... and all for the greatest good!!! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 11:08 AM

With the 'old system' I mentioned earlier, and the comments by BH it is clear.
You have to comply with the law!
But if you haven't recorded the information initially....

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 01:45 PM

Yo Thomas, it's real obvious you've never met me...

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: GUEST,Cori
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 01:48 PM

Okay, here's the irony: the reason (besides modernization) all public libraries, and presumably all school libraries as well, got rid of library cards is that system required signing a card in a pocket in the back of the book. Your name and date was then there for all the world to see which books you checked out when. "Someone"? decided it was an "invasion of privacy" for this to be available, so they switched to the computer system. The result:
1. My local library had to reinventory all books to the new computer system to comply with the law. Not wanting to bother with infrequently-read titles, they discarded thousands, including Newbery and Pulitzer Prizewinners and classics such as "The Right Stuff." (I ought to know; I bought them all for a quarter apiece and am now being crowded out of the house.)
2. Now that the information is in digital form, it goes God knows where instead of just being written on one card in the back of one book.
3. My 76-year-old mother, who can barely remember what happened two hours ago, must check out only new books--it's the only way she can be sure of not having read the thing before!
And, in the end, this system devised to protect "your" privacy makes it EASIER for someone to spy on you!? 1984 meets Fahrenheit 451 indeed! (For more on Fahrenheit 451, see the message boards at www.raybradbury.com).

Subject: RE: BS: 1984 or Fahrenheit 451?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 02:28 PM

One thing we can all do is refuse to give our phone number to any store or service outlet which uses them on computer to track our purchases, etc. Or, give them a false one. I was appalled that when I went into a Radio Shack, for instance, the first thing they wanted before my cash was my phone number. Imagine their surprise when I said "you don't really need that just to sell me this!" Same thing goes for the discount cards grocery stores issue now, for use instead of coupons. They use that data to track what you buy, obstensibly so they can stock more efficiently.

The other thing to do is use cash as much as possible.

As for the library, Maggie, I wish your dad was still here to challenge it. Were I a librarian I certainly would. Just saw a really nice interview on tv, the other night, of the woman who owns the Tattered Cover bookstore in Denver, CO (they do mailorder & deserve teh support, IMO). She fought the government and was backed up by the courts when she refused to give them her client list when they requested them under the guise of seeing who had bought books which might have to do with terrorism. She, her staff and patrons are to be commended for their courage and support of one another and the First Ammendment. we must all be as vigilant and brave.