Tape It When You Can

Subject: Tape It When You Can
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:08 AM

Genie made a good point in the thread about Bobert's thumb. She encouraged people to tape their music. I'd like to expand on that a little, and hear your experiences at the same time.

Back in the early 60's, I wrote a song, based on an old newspaper article about an unsolved murder in Kentucky. I had just started to hear the old traditional ballads and thought the story was fascinating enough to deserve a song. Being out of step with life, as I always seem to be, the song didn't seem to have much to do with Michael Row The Boat Ashore or Puff The Magic Dragon, so I sang it a few times, and then forgot all about it. I didn't tape the song, or write the words down, because I didn't consider it worth remembering. Fast forward forty years, and an old buddy of mine from the early 60's tracked down my e-mail address and asked for the words to the song. Because I'd never taped it, and couldn't remember half of it, I had to track down another old buddy from that era, who still sings the song! I ended up having to learn my own song from someone else.. Moral... even if you think something isn't worth saving, tape it anyway. Cassettes don't take up much space, and someday you may want to hear it.

Twenty years ago when my Father was alive, I sent a long list of questions for my Mother to ask him about when he was growing up. He would never talk into a tape recorder, but having my Mother ask him the questions loosened him up. I still have the tape, and treasure it even more, now that he's gone.

And then, there are casual, poorly recorded cassettes of just horsing around with old friends in someone's living room... I wish I had recorded far more than I did. Some of the tapes that people made of my concerts, which seemed somewhat irrelevant at the time, now have a great value to me... again, re-learning old songs from myself. You know that you're getting old when you have to learn songs by listening to yourself..

My Mother has always said that "life is making memories, so you might as well make good ones." And while you're at it... tape them..

Any similar stories?..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Amos
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:18 AM

I can only add that with modern Minidisc Recorders you can do this a lot more easily, with more tracks per disc/cassette. And it will be a HECKUVA lot easier to put onto a CD when you get home!!

I have a CD which contains a couple of dozen raucous, ad hoc cuts from a visit to my sister's playing with Bull Am and a friendly neighbor pianiste who dropped in to jam.

And I love it!


A

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: C-flat
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:52 AM

My Great Granfather was well known locally as a pub entertainer. He wrote many music-hall style ballads, most of which would have been considered risque in those days, and played various instruments (piano, banjo,accordian, penny whistle).
Some years ago an elderly Aunt was recounting the exploits of old Joe Postgate and remembered some of the songs he had written. We'd heard it all before but now, being older, my brothers and I realised that our Auntie was the only person left who knew the songs and so we decided to make some tapes of her singing and talking about those days.
They lived in hard times but her memories were all fond ones, and Old Joe always had a pocket full of "thru'penny bits" (3 Pence coin) presumably earned in the local public houses.
Sadly the tapes have been lost. I know one that my younger brother had snapped in his machine, but no-one knows what happened to the others. I'm hoping that, one day, when a family member is clearing out a loft, that they'll turn up.
These days we could have committed them to disc and made copies, as I recall, some of the songs were pretty good and documented the life and humour of the time very well.
If they ever do turn up I'll give them an airing here on Mudcat. Meanwhile I'm making tapes of family get-togethers, my daughters singing and all kinds of mundane stuff in the knowledge that, one day, they will be interesting, if only to ourselves.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:02 PM

My brother was a fanatic about taping something 'while it was in the works'and playing it back while we were in the learning process. So I have 20 or so cassette tapes of songs mixed with instructions, chat, and laughter. I always planned - and still will someday- to transfer all the songs to a few songs-only tapes.

But now that he has died, the 'working' tapes are the real keepers.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: pattyClink
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:04 PM

My dad was a non-musician fascinated by cassette recorders. We first used them to send audio letters to sons overseas. He wound up taping the grandkids, etc. Took a little machine on a trip to Ireland, catching Mom on tape telling stories and laughing. In his later years he took it 'visiting' people as he traveled around the country, in order to straighten out tangled geneaology questions. He didn't interview his friends and relatives, he just would tell his own stories, ask questions, and get them going. Occasionally he would catch somebody singing, too. By doing this, he inadvertently recorded his own storytelling, before he lost his larynx. We are awfully glad he did all this, even though it seemed a little weird at the time.

He left behind a little case full of these things, rapidly disintegrating. For a christmas project one year, I pulled good stories and excerpts off the tapes, added some stuff from Grandad and others in the Folk Archive tapes, and made copies for each family, keeping a master and duplicate master. We don't all have time and room to save every little bit of it, but at least those 120 minutes will last another generation. (yeah, I know it's time to transfer to another medium)

Anyway, I second the motion, record it! And make copies!

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:13 PM

Ebbie,

I second your sentiments on keeping the original tapes. My father loved gadgets, and there were more versions of cassette recorders and microphones at his house than you could shake a stick at, as the saying goes. While sorting out his estate in 1997 I found a box of cassettes meant to be taped over. I'd packed all of the "good" ones, but as I worked around his house I retrieved MY little cassette (yeah, the bug for technology has reached this generation) and carried it around from room to room where I was packing and cleaning and preparing for selling the house. Those discards are wonderful, casual songs and conversations.

I know that if Dad died this year instead of five years ago, the cassette players would be packed away and we'd be into several generations of CD burners by now. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM

Not just audio, too! I made a video for my mom when we lived in a wonderful old house in CT. It's got a guided tour of the old house, the girls, dog, and I singing and a bunch of otehr stuff. It is a quick snapshot of a time when we were pretty happy, having fun AND the old house got torn down, plus the old dog is gone, so they've both been preserved that way. I am relaly glad I made it.

My brother and I made a tape for mom of the peepers (little frogs) in the springtime, as well as a bunch of bird songs. We sound like some Nat. Geographic outing, talking quietly into the mic, while described the muck we were tramping through to get the peepers recorded. It is really net and whenever i get lonesome for New England I listen to it.

I've got a book I am working on based on my dad's oral history which he put on tape, at my request, one year for Christmas. I also have my mom telling a few stories, she was more shy about it, though. Dad has made several music tapes for us, plsu I have a few of my sister and I singing.

I also have about 10 tapes containing several hours of the Compleat Visit of AllanC and Bill/Sables to our house in Wyoming, along with Sorcha and her family and Mimosa playing hsi lovely harps during the Great Mudcat Adventure. As well, I have a few tapes of Mudcat HearMe sessions. All precious to me.

I am a big believer in getting it down!

kat

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 01:22 PM

Great stories, all... an inspiration to all of us. I have a tape of my son Aaron singing with me on a half a dozen songs, before he knew how to say a word... he just sang along with baby sounds. But, his timing and pitch were perfect.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 03:10 PM

Slight segue here: Jerry, I'm curious. When a child/baby starts out that way, do they continue? Does s/he become a child prodigy? Is your son Aaron a musician now? Did music become an essential to him?

I believe they say that prodigies get an early start but that by the age of 25 or so other people tend to catch up with them. What has been your experience with that?

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 03:29 PM

C flat, if a treasured tape ever does get "eaten" by a tape deck, you should know that even cassettes can be spliced, saving most of the content. I wouldn't bother with this for a commercially available tape, but for a one-of-a-kind tape, I definitely would (and have done).

Yeah, Jerry, I second what you and so many others are saying about recording stuff. And when you can put it on the computer or a disk, it takes much less space and is much easier to catalogue and retrieve the info.

Temporary thread creep:
Ebbie, I may be living disproof of that hypothesis. I used to 'sing' along spontaneously with bands, choirs, and other music sources at about age 18 mo., and musicians were amazed that I was right on pitch and 'singing' in the right key, etc. But my 2 years of group violin lessons accomplished little but annyoying the neighbors, and after taking 4 years of piano as a child, I still can't really do much but play melodies by reading sheet music. (I.e., I can't "play the piano.") I've been singing as long as I can remember and normally have very good pitch, but I was never a music prodigy and am only a so-so singer and guitarist, even though I sing and play full time.
My hypothesis (based partly on what I've read on the subject) is that children who start out that way can well become prodigies if their talent is nurtured from that very young age -- e.g., having them start instrument or voice lessons very early. But that "natural talent" doesn't automatically blossom into "prodigy-hood."

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: mg
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 04:35 PM

Genie..you are a lovely singer and guitarist. Especially on the old country songs.

mg

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 04:58 PM

Thanks, mary. I wasn't putting myself down, just saying that I reserve the term "prodigy" for folks like Segovia, Mozart, George Gershwin, and others (many of whom we've never heard of) who either played by ear or learned to play (compose) with outstanding skill at a very young age.

Genie

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Bardford
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 05:10 PM

I have an archive tape from the early 60's of a CBC radio interview with my great grandmother, who died shortly thereafter. My great grandad was a longtime politician, and the CBC wanted some reminiscences from her after he died.

I played the tape a few years ago at a family reunion. Here was the voice of an old woman from forty years back, remembering her childhood (and courting days)in Wales in the late 1800's. My seventy-five year old uncle had his year-old great grandaughter on his lap as we listened to the tape. For one marvellous moment we had seven generations of the family in one place.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 05:33 PM

I read an article in the E-business section in our local paper today about recording on cds. It said to stay away from unbranded or brand X discs because some of them begin to separate after about 5 years. Use the best. the article is concerned with pictures, but it should apply to all material put on CDs. They go on to say, however, re-burn a cd every five years.

"Experts agree, many cds made with computer equiped cd burners will not make it past five years." ..... "Susan Munro, owner of Edmonton-based Melico Inc., a CD-ROM duplicating and replicating service....attributes the short cd life to poor sealing of disc edges, allowing moisture to seep in and corrode the the recorded digital information."
Kodak Canada's John Guest says, "I would put my most important digital images back on photographic film."

Microfilm, which is estimated to last for 500 years, is a cost-effective alternative.
"Don't use CD labeling kits or masking tape on your cds. Write on cds with felt-tipped, oil-based pens only or write on the cover cases.
Make sure that plastic sleeve-type covers are of archival quality.

"Make back-ups of your back-ups every five years. This includes data tapes, CDs, zip discs and floppies. Don't trust hard drives."

Stilly River Sage, apparently tapes like yours last better than the CDs. I do a fair amount of taping. It is easy, cheap, and duplicating is no problem. I have looked at a very nice Marantz cd recorder that I could add to my sound system, but so far haven't convinced myself that I need it. If I use the counter on my tape deck and record the numbers, I can go to songs about as fast as I need to.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 12:34 AM

Thanks for the info, guest. Who'd'a thunk it?

Genie

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Hrothgar
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 03:57 AM

Cyril Tawney told the story of how in the early days he didn't write down the words of his songs on the grounds that if they weren't memorable enough to stay in his own head, they weren't likely to stay in other people's.

Through this, he nearly lost the third verse of "Grey Funnel Line" (that's the verse starting "There was a time my heart was free"). Fortunately he'd sung it for Lou Killen, who taped it. A few years later Cyril heard Lou singing it and congratulated Lou on the extra verse he'd written - only to be told it was Cyril's after all.

Cyril then had to learn a verse of his own song from somebody else...

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: breezy
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 06:00 AM

Your right, at our Folk club we now try and record and video, already we have footage of Cyril T ., Roy Bailey and Johnny Collins.
I did a gig long ago and 25 years on I got the tape of me. urg!
If you can , save those 'precious moments'

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 06:13 AM

One of my favourite tapes I ahve is of my youngest singing "Little Bunny Foo-foo" when she was about 3yrs old. It's adorable and something she'll always have.

We also have a reel-to-reel, somewhere, of my grandma reading stories to us and my teeny-tiny 4-5yr old voice telling her the story of Goldilocks. It's precious to hear her and a hoot to hear me!

We have a professional broadcaster's tape duplication machine. I love it. It's so smart I can push the fast forward and it automatically stops at the next song, cues it up, then plays it.

kat

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 09:03 AM

I have been encouraging my musician friends to collect themselves for years. I occasionally follow my own advice.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 03:26 PM

I sent the above info about CDs to a friend of ours who is an expert at CD dupes from 78's and old reel-to-reels. Anyway, he had this further info to share:

talking about what he uses for masters...the laminated "master" CD products produced by both Kyocera and Noord Bit-works.   These are made to be
duplicating masters and have the "film" sealed under a layer of optical quality plastic (with the sides securely sealed as well.) They also come with a "Tupperware" like jewel case with a resealable tape for final sealing.   I...use them for only important masters as they're over $12.00 per disc.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Mudlark
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for starting this thread, Jerry...the only record I have of my husband, who died last year, is a video a friend copied a couple of years ago when John and I were interviewed on TV. It's only about 3 minutes long but I treasure every second.

Also, since I don't read music, or write it, I don't know how many good melodies I've lost, thinking I'd remember them until I got around to putting them on tape (ah, the ones that got away!!). If I can get words to them fast enough they are easier to keep in my head but tunes alone fade faster and faster. Since family have asked me what i want for Xmas, maybe I'll tell them a mini-recorder.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 06:41 PM

Mudlark, I'd recommend a small handheld cassette. I have one that was not expensive which is made for interviewing. It has a thing where I can slow down the playback speed which is handy when typing words up. Anyway, I recommend it because it is easier to interface a regular cassette than a mini-cassette with your computer or to make dubs, etc.

If you ever do want sheet music created from them, I've got a set up where I can transfew them into my hard drive, or play them on my music keyboard, into a program on my computer which then will "spit out" a printed sheet. It's really kind of neat!:-)

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 09:18 PM

Minidisc is the most durable medium we currently have. There will be some way to get data off any minidisc in existence long after all tape-based media have disintegrated.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: GUEST,Black Hawk unlogged
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 02:55 AM

Not so Jack.

I have spent this weekend trying to buy a mini-disc player locally. Nowhere (including car audio retailers) keeps them in stock these days.
Everybody (including my son) tells me they are obsolete and not to bother.
With this general attitude I can see mini-discs going the way of video tape machines.
Looks like I will have to 'surf' to get one.
(Always puzzled me why there has never been a mini-disc drive for a PC.)

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: John J
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:04 AM

I have found it increasingly difficult to buy the actual discs. A shame as the system is wonderfully flexible.

JJ

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: treewind
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 04:15 AM

There's certainly some evidence that MD is more stable than CD as a long term storage medium, but it's also true that recorders and players are getting harder to find.

CD and DVD will be around for a lot longer. When they become obsolescent, there will a replacement and the best thing to do is transfer all your data to that. At least while it's digital there will be no loss of information.

I've only recently discovered the joys of DVD-R. Drives are cheap, so are the blank discs, and both have reached the point where they are as easy to use as CDR. I have a drive that can use all DVD and CD media types and detects the media and recommended writing speed.

Black Hawk: there WAS a minidisc drive for the PC, made by Sony, but it was so slow and expensive that it didn't sell. Also it didn't give you access to the content of audio MD's. It would play them, but if you wanted the computer to read and write files you had to use data MD media. Sony cocked up MD in many ways by making it too restrictive, always for purely commercial, not technical reasons. I loved it and used it when it had developed to good audio quality (I still have my MZ-R30) but it's been overtaken on all fronts by CDR and flash memory now.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:35 AM

One way to input from MD to PC is to use a sound card with optical input. This is something I want to get into (all my field recordings are on MD) but knowing me, by the time I get round to it the technology will probably be state-of-the-Ark.

Any other 'catters used this method?

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: treewind
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:43 AM

I certainly used to use a sound card with optical input for MD-PC. I don't have the MD deck near the PC anymore, so if I needed to transfer anything from MD now I'd probably use the portable MD (which doesn't have an optical out, only optical in) and go into PC line in - plain old analogue transfer, which is not too shoddy with a good sound card (M-Audio Audiophile 2496) and careful level adjustments.

These days I either record live on an Edirol R-09 and simply copy the files, or I'm recording and mixing on a Yamaha AW16G and making a CDR on that, and using the CDR if I need to transfer to PC for any reason.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM

I agree with all that has been said with regards to this subject.I have for the last nearly fout years trying to compile the Anglo,English and Duet Internationals, if only some of these old players had recorded their playing and music,all as now taken for granted.It is only when you try and put these historical collections together do you realise what has been lost to the future generations.Even now there are some wonderful players that have never been recorded.
The other major thing to remember is please put all the information on the tape or CD of the player.It has taken over eighteen months to track down the player of some fantastic playing of the Duet Concertina,it was only due to another recording of the identical tunes coming into my possesion, that had more details,that the mystery was, we think solved.
Other problems are the position of the mikes many were taken from the audience and there is too much backgound noise to use the recordings,these are only of interest.It is those people like "Breezy" who are doing the job properly that are successful and these recordings and Video's are going to be priceless in 100 years time.
Al

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Megan L
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 09:32 AM

When i was a wee lassie ma dad recorded everything on a real to real recorder, like everything he did it went out of fashion and was given away. then came casettes smae thing but a year or so after his death i received a parcel from my big brother inside was a recording my dad had made of one of his own poems, it felt so strange to hear that voice once more.

Katlaughing i couldn't agree more about the video. My brother had visited us with his new video camera and had left it to take down with us when we visited him. My Mum and dad came to visit we recorded the places we went and i had them sit down and talk to me about things they remembered. I wasn't to know it then but it was to be their last visit. Months later when we were down we again got the recorder out for their 60th anniversary. mums health failed and they never made it back up though she lived for almost three more years. the little cassettes of tape had been put away and forgotten about but when she died i dug them out did some crude editing (No computer in those days) and made copies for other members of the family each of which is now treasure espicially since dat too is now gone.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

One nice thing about the PA system that we use is that it has a CD recorder built in. So - good or bad - we have recordings of all the concerts we've done.

As far as family recordings I made a video tape of my uncle Jim telling about his experiences as a MASH doctor during WW2. He landed in France just after D-Day and eventually was in the first team of doctors that liberated Buchenwald {SP?} death camp. It's really chilling stuff.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: KeithofChester
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 09:42 AM

Black Hawk said: I have spent this weekend trying to buy a mini-disc player locally. Nowhere (including car audio retailers) keeps them in stock these days.

John J said: I have found it increasingly difficult to buy the actual discs. A shame as the system is wonderfully flexible.

I've encountered both situations recently with minidisk myself. Blank disks have disappeared from most high street shops and are really only readily available on-line. Likewise I had to replace my recorder the other week and found to my dismay that even major Sony outlets now have them as a special order item only. Fortunately, the recorders are still pretty readily available online.

It is a self-destructive circle, because the lack of ease of purchasing replacement units and blanks is going to further drive down demand. Wierdly all this happens withing 12 months of Sony bringing out the MZ-RH1 which solves almost all the previous limitations on MD recording (ie it now does PCM recording and can upload both standard and hi-capacity MD directly via USB to a PC).

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 10:24 AM

"CD and DVD will be around for a lot longer. When they become obsolescent, there will a replacement and the best thing to do is transfer all your data to that. At least while it's digital there will be no loss of information."

Sadly CDs, etc are not 'a perfect record' - they are a 'potentially lossy' format - errors occur all the time, but till they get too many for the error correcting SW to fix, you will never know that the CD is detoriating...

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 10:32 AM

Actually, this thread should be renamed, since tape has gone obsolete since it was opened.

The best recorders, now, are the ones like my Edirol R-09 and its competitors, that record direct to memory cards like you use in digital cameras, in either WAV or MP-3 formats. Fun.

Once you have your recording as a digital file, in whatever format, you can store it on CD-ROM or DVD-ROM or flash memory or your computer's hard drive or a portable hard drive, or all of the above. As much redundancy as you feel you need.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:10 AM

Tape may be obsolete as a medium but it still holds the message. I have lots of my Dad's old cassettes and reel-to-reel (one wonders what maintenance "real-to-real" tapes require?!) :)

I'll hold onto them even after they're transferred onto CDs.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: treewind
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:14 AM

Foolestroupe:
I know what you mean, but CD audio is not to be confused with "lossy formats" like MP3.

If you archive stuff on CDR in CD-ROM format, i.e. as files instead of CD-Audio format, you will get stronger error correction and a bit perfect copy, if you get a copy at all.

Modern CDR media are far less prone to degradation that they used to be, if kept out of excessive heat and light. If you're worried about losing the data, probably a good idea to copy it occasionally to keep it fresh. And any other storage media has the same problem, to some extent.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: open mike
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:46 PM

thanks for the reminder..i will be going to a family reunion soon
and remembered that when my dad was alive he interviewed some family members at the same gathering decades ago...many of them are gone now
but i hope to play a cassette for those who attend this year so we can listen to the "old folks" of then now that we are the old folks of now.

perhaps i can record some memories this year as well.

now, who remembers the blizzard of '88? (1888, that is!)

Subject: RE: Tape It When You Can
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:14 AM

"CD audio is not to be confused with "lossy formats" like MP3."

Unfortunately, I may just know more than you think I do.... :-)

Ah, well now, some time ago, I had this brilliant idea about using ordinary commercial music CDs as an encryption/decryption technique (not unlike the idea of the 'book' one) - (would have made a brilliant story idea!) but I discovered that you CANNOT do this - as the output IS 'lossy' to the extent that each different CD when played back gives a different digital output - the ECC sw 'fakes it' enough so that the human ear can't hear anything 'wrong', or indeed anything different between copies, but there are errors enough so that it just blows away the whole possibility of using commercial music CDs as an encryption/decryption technique... so I was told... if it DID work, it would have been done by now...

btw, I point out that the SW for encoding/decoding has to read the RAW disk output... i.e. the series of bits, ones and zeroes....