BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?

Subject: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:54 PM

I just have to ask this question, politely and sensitively as I can.

Whazzup with the Vet Cops? Why are they going around chastising anyone and everyone for not being kind to vets? Or thankful enough, or whatever the hell it is they don't like about the discussion of the war buildup, military holidays, you name it.

Am I missing something? I haven't seen ANY evidence of vets being trashed, or of anyone being anything but completely respectful. Is it just me, or does this Vet Cop behavior seem a bit over the top to anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:23 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:35 PM

Which is to say, I believe the reaction has been a bit excessive, and it makes me wonder. Because I express anti-war sentiments, am I now being branded as Un-American? I think I'm being a good American by objecting to what the government is doing. And I don't see how objecting to sending people off to be killed is showing disrepect for veterans.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:08 PM

Personally, I haven't seen any excessive reaction, except perhaps from the predictable few and from ANON.GUEST attempting to get somebody to react.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:11 PM

What am I missing? Waht is a "Vet Cop?"

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:21 PM

Guest:

I can only suggest, as politely and sensitively as I can, that you play the role they have played, place your life on the line for a long period of time to support a country, rightly or wrongly, and then come back to the question with any insight you may have gained thereby.

I do not support war as an option, but I recognize that when that option is taken or is unavoidable, extraordinary inner resources are brought forth by those who face the violence directly. I have nothing but respect for them because they did so.

I do not believe I have seen any Vet Cop activity on this forum beyond a few instances of those who have said -- rightly, I think -- that the day should be acknowledged with a decent amount of respect. After all, that's why it was set aside, innit?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:31 PM

Yep, Amos, I think you nailed it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:33 PM

No Amos, it isn't about what role vets played, who they did it for, or how brave they were, or anything like that. It has to do with certain individuals going into threads and using their personal military service as a club for chastising people like Don Firth for being "disrespectful" or "insensitive" or "hurtful" to vets, when there those being chastised have done nothing wrong.

There are currently about half a dozen threads going on with Veteran's Day themes. Nothing disrespectful, nothing hurtful, nothing insensitive being said whatsoever. By anyone.

So again, I ask, what is up with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:03 PM

As one of the people that you accuse of this, please let me respond.

First off, I would suggest that folks do a check on the name Peace Matriot, Guest,L and any number of others. If anyone would like to PM me, I will share as many of the names that this person uses as you would like.

There is no Vet Cop, and your starting this thread is simply you using a very old tactic. You set up a premise that will be attacked, then you (quite skillfully, I might add) proceed to twist it around and appear you are being attacked. You generally do this, IMO, so that you can move any thread that doesn't agree with your cynical and twisted view of the subject at hand. I even note with interest how you have always jumped into threads where Vets were attempting to educate folks as to what drives much of what we write, and launched scathing attacks as to how this is simply warmongering. You do this even when the vet is not expressing any type of love of war, but rather just talking about vets issues. Then you go back to a another GUEST appellation and start a thread talking about Kerry and the Wall. You have a lot of nerve. From your postings in numerous earlier threads, you have made it clear that you would never even visit a monument to those who died. In short, you are a hypocrite.

As to whether you have been insensitive, you need to go and reread all of your posts. Not just the last two weeks worth, where you attempted to obfuscate with false logic and phoney niceness.

To the rest of you, I respect most folks genuine feelings. What I don't like is a bully who treats those who don't agree with disdain. If you will but do a search of my posts, you will find out that I am opposed to most war. I don't have any problem with decent folks, opposed to my view, and of honorable intent. This person has not exhibited much integrity.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:36 PM

"Paranoia reduces anxiety and guilt by transferring to the other all the characteristics one does not want to recognize in oneself. It is maintained by selective perception and recall."

       Sam Keen
       Faces of the Enemy: Reflections of the Hostile Imagination

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:48 PM

Nice try, there. But we share a common characteric. We both have a track record around here. Mine is easy to check. All one must do is to click on my name and you can see exactly who I am and what I stand for. You, however, hide behind multiple personalities, most of which have been figured out by myself and others. You do this so no one can track the inconsistencies that spring up when one is hiding something. You like to hide. This is because you stand for very little other than hiding your own shortcomings and agenda. It is my aim to let folks know whenever you start spreading what is politely known as horse manure. I have even seen you use several different monikers in the same thread in order to confuse.

Not even a good try, when I think of it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: mg
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:59 PM

because there are people out in the woods today with guns to their heads. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:00 PM

This is for you Big Mick--an exerpt fromthe poem "When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloomed" I posted here today. Godspeed to you.

Then with the knowledge of death as walking one side of me,
And the thought of death close-walking the other side of me,
And I in the middle as with companions, and as holding the hands of companions,
I fled forth to the hiding receiving night that talks not,
Down to the shores of the water, the path by the swamp in the dimness,
To the solemn shadowy cedars and the ghostly pines so still.

And the singer so shy to the rest receiv'd me,
The gray-brown bird I know received us comrades three,
And he sang the carol of death, and a verse for him I love.

From deep secluded recesses,
From the fragrant cedars and the ghostly pines so still,
Came the carol of the bird.

And the charm of the carol rapt me,
As I held as if by their hands my comrades in the night,
And the voice of my spirit tallied the song of the bird.

Come lovely and soothing death,
Undulate round the world, serenely arriving, arriving,
In the day, in the night, to all, to each,
Sooner or later delicate death.

Prais'd be the fathomless universe,
For life and joy, and for objects and knowledge curious,
And for love, sweet love -- but praise! praise! praise!
For the sure-enwinding arms of cool-enfolding death.

Dark mother always gliding near with soft feet,
Have none chanted for thee a chant of fullest welcome?
Then I chant it for thee, I glorify thee above all,
I bring thee a song that when thou must indeed come, come unfalteringly.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:20 PM

Mary, that remark is so in appropriate, and so inflammatory, I have to respond.

First, there are people out in the woods with guns to their heads every day. Every single day. And they aren't just veterans, but people from all walks of life. Mental anguish and mental illness is not something only vets suffer. And I hope Mary, that if you are one of those people, that you will get some help. Perhaps you need it, perhaps not. But remarks like the one you made above are beyond the pale of reasonableness in a forum like this. Way beyond.

Internet chat forums about folk and blues music are not the appropriate place to get such help. Nor are they appropriate places to take out your misdirected anger about the war that has so obviously wounded you, Mary. When you project that anger upon others, and chastise people like Don Firth, you aren't being fair.

There is a great diversity of opinions and attitudes among veterans. Neither you nor Big Mick speak for all vets, especially about the Vietnam War. Respect is earned, not automatically given, no matter what circumstances in life one comes from. Making remarks like the one you just made above isn't going to garner respect for you. It is just too extreme.

I hope you get some comfort from the poem fragment I posted above. It is from an elegy that Walt Whitman wrote for President Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:23 PM

Oh for pitys sake--what a load of shite. Nuff said from me.
Good-bye

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:12 PM

Exactly my point, Guest of many names. You neatly dodge everything, and now you try to come off as "caring". What a bunch of malarkey! And where did either Mary or I say we spoke for all vets? In fact, I have told you any number of times that the point is not to speak for vets, but to simply say "thank you" for their service. Nothing more. You are a master of obfuscation, and not answering rather pointed observations. Such as your "make nice" thread about Kerry and The Wall, yet you have professed your hatred for that same memorial and said in one thread that you found them all distasteful. It is not Mary that needs the help, it is you.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Ireland
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM

Why explain yourselves to a person who has not got the courage of their convictions to post in anonymity shows the calibre of this person. And whats more pathetic they have been rumbled and still keep the charade up sick or what.

I find it hard to believe that soldiers who have seen war would want to advocate the repeating of that experience on the next generation and when they do it is not taken as lightly as some would suggest. Somebody has to make a stand and that alone deserves automatic repect.

To cite the illness of a civilian compared to a vet who was drafted into the military is crass and total ignorance. No disrespect to those civilians who have real problems but the fact that people had to go over seas and fight put the vets in a different category. The horrors of war were imposed on them they done their duty and deserve our respect because it has been well and truly earned.

What would those vets Mary refers to be like if they had not experienced what they did? PTSD is a terrible thing I think Mary was referring to vets who have it bad,she is telling it how it is and if your too sensitive/ignorant for that guest then the problem lies with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:39 PM

Thanks, Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Tinker
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:48 PM

Guys, I think if you look through the posts this Guest( who has overstayed their welcome) has beeen leaving us, you'll see it's all just a series of hot buttons. Race, Politics, Religion, Technology--- a pseudo thoughtful post to lure in responses.... A few trial casts for a hot button... then a direct attack on integrity....
If the thread attack is ignored they then refresh multiple thread with similar themes to irritate the wound and keep it alive.

None of if is sincere. All of it is simply for the pleasure of the pain. And the joy of creating chaos.

Please recognize the pattern and choose to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:49 PM

Give me a break!!!!

place your life on the line

Come on...the "vets" ....when they were in the Gulf.... were safer than when they were civilans in the States.

GUEST - You are seriously over-reacting - or confusing this with another forum you participate in.

Most folk-musicians had the intelligence to avoid military "SIR - Vice " since the 50's....all musical MudCatters are certified liberals....(except for the few B.S.er's - and if you will just put B.S. in the filter you will NEVER have to read their trash again.)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:40 PM

Uh . . . 'scuse me, folks, but I don't want to be anybody's cause célèbre here, and I really don't feel that I need defending. Thanks, anyway.

I have known Mary Garvey for some years now, and although it seems we don't necessarily agree about a few things, I know her to be a good person and I respect her. She obviously feels strongly about this, and that's okay. Admirable, in fact. Among other things, she's a fine singer with a head full of good songs, and she sings them beautifully. I haven't seen her for a few years because we live in different cities now, but one of these days I'm going to make it to Rainy Camp or Sunny Camp where I look forward to seeing her and hearing her sing again.

Can we sort of lower the tone of animosity here? It's really a waste of good bandwidth. Let's all move on to a music thread, shall we?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:56 AM

I have learned a hell of a lot from military veterans, I don't always agree with their viewpoint based on their own experiences--veterans, like other large groups, do not all agree with each other either--but it's invaluable to me to see how heartfelt these feelings are.

Last night we watched a riveting documentary, "Return to Nagasaki", about a Newfoundlander named Jack Cook, who served in the Far East in WWII, then spent 3 1/2 years in a Japanese POW camp watching his comrades gradually starve to death, and then experienced the bombing of Nagasaki 7 km from the point of impact. This man shared his personal emotional journey with us, the internal conflict of having spent years being brutally mistreated, then seeing thousands of people who he identified as his tormentors, die terribly. In the post-bomb devastation he was able to acknowledge his feelings for the Japanese guards, and system, that had actually mistreated the POW's, but recognize the thousands of civilians who, like him, were victims. (He has survived four bouts of skin cancer linked to the radiation exposure.) Last year he returned to Nagasaki after 57 years, met and embraced other survivors of the bomb, received an apology from the mayor of Nagasaki and other politicians for the mistreatment of POW's, and generally came full circle, a difficult and emotional experience. This show was hard to watch for all the images of charred flesh and starving POW's, which gave a hint of what it must have been like to be there in 1945.

My own grandfather carried a Vickers gun up Vimy Ridge in 1917. (That incidentally is the most celebrated battle in Canadian history; it is commonly referred to as the event that, in our national psyche, made us a nation, a notion I have some trouble with. I think the folks that were fortunate enough to come home from the hellish mud of France were the ones that made us a nation.) He came home pretty much a pacifist. I found out just last year what happened to his service medals; when my cousin Roddy, the oldest grandson, was 14, he received them, but first he had to take an oath never to fight in a war. So it turns out we do have a somewhat different type of military tradition in our family. (The medals may get passed on to my son in a couple of years.)

Mick, I'd be interested in hearing how it was that you made the transition from returned veteran to union organizer. Maybe you could start another thread.

Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:59 AM

Big Mick, I recally you recanting accusations you made about a Mudcat member when you were in paranoid mode, and had this to say for yourself on 17 Oct 02:

"And Abby (Harpgirl), I appreciate that you didn't say me when you indicated the problem of false accusation, but let me state publicy that I was the one you referenced. In my duties as a Mudelf/Joeclone, I have come to see that I was in error. I attacked and insinuated publicy that you were the one. I feel bound to apologize to you publicly as well. I hope that you forgive those implied accusations. I was wrong to do that."

You just don't seem to get the fact Big Mick that your problems with certain posters isn't about the identity of the poster, despite your personal paranoia in that regard. The problem with you being entrusted with extra responsibilities in Mudcat is your tendency to abuse your power, by acting on your powerful desire to exact revenge upon those you disagree with. You take things much too personally, and this thread is a classic example of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:17 AM

It is really bizarre to see finger pointing by someone who is faceless. Redolent with inconsistency and cogntiive dissonance.

The nearest analogy that comes to mind at the moment is pissing to windward.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:23 AM

Negatively focusing on the messenger to deflect attention away from the content of the subject matter is a tired, though predictable tactic, often used by those being criticized for misdeeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Ireland
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:54 AM

Having someone undermine the very essence of those who had no choice but to take up arms is something worth taking personal.

How safe were those in Pearl Harbour,Korea,the Tet offense,the soldiers who have lost their lives in Afghanistan, were they safer than when they were civilians in the States? Tell that to people dying from the results of various medication given in the Gulf War,ack sure you were in no real danger. Funny how everyone is an expert.

Its weird that those who did not go through the hell the vets did but benefited by their actions are the ones who are the first to nonchalant about the sacrifices others made.

I'm now taking Tinkers advice, the vets deserve better than this and one day a year is not too much to be given over to remember our war dead military and civilian, friend and foe.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 11:18 AM

This is, I guess, a reflection of what Mudcat has become. This thread was about songs. From the beginning, this thread was about music. When it was refreshed this year, it was again a call for songs.

Now it is about Big Mick's personal vendetta against a poster whose views about veterans he disagrees with. He tried to claim this thread was for the express purpose of thanking veterans. It wasn't. It was about songs.

Big Mick is a very proud man. I disagree with many here, obviously, that pride is an admirable trait. IMO, in this instance pride has eclipsed reason in the attempt to justify revenge. One of the many problems I have with that is vengeance has no foresight. Retribution ften means that we eventually do to ourselves what we have done unto others.

I understand why certain personality types engage is this behavior. It is because nothing could be more soothing to a man's pride, than the conviction that, in taking vengeance on his so-called "enemies" for what he, in his paranoia, believe is an injustice done him,
he has simply to retributively exact vengeance in return?

As to Mary Garvey, I don't know if she is suicidal or not. I have now read through her posting history here in Mudcat, and she indeed seems to be a nice person, who seems to be struggling with demons which she routinely projects onto other posters in threads having to do with issues of war and peace. That isn't particularly healthy, and if she indeed has suicidal tendencies, I don't see how anyone in an internet chat forum can help her with them. I also don't see anyone attempting to exacerbate them. Rather, I see a history of Mary interjecting herself into threads on war and peace, and inappropriately admonishing individual posters on occassion for what she perceives as attacks on veterans which clearly aren't there. That, to me, is the sign of someone with problems, of someone who needs help, at the very least.

I really don't think there is anything more I can contribute here. I'm not interested in doing battle with Big Mick, or Mary Garvey. I'll steer clear of both of them, and all should be fine.

Pride eclipsing reason in the attempt to justify revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 11:30 AM

Apologies for the mess of my message above. I inadvertently hit the send button before I had finished editing it. Obviously it is time to bow out here.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM

"Oh when will (we) ever learn, when will (we) ever learn ..." Not to feed the trolls.

I have done this before, but broke my own rule. Henceforth I will not reply to a Guest thread. If eveyone would do the same, they would have to fish in another pond.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST,John Hernadez
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 11:12 AM

In the Borough of Queens in New York City there is a group called V-COP. That stands for Veterans' Community On Patrol. They are kind of an unarmed auxiliary police force that can be found at street fairs, outddor concerts, sporting events, and other places where there are crowds. As far as I know, they have never served any political function. The walk around in their V-COP jackets and carry walkie-talkies. Most seem to befrom the Vietnam era, but some appear older. I've never seen any younger V-COPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: mg
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 11:52 AM

An eternal sense of duty to those we know would have, if we had been sent, or did, save our lives. A sense of brotherhood and sisterhood that most will never know. A lack of separation between I and thou because life was and is so fragile. Guilt that we didn't go when others did, or that we did and didn't fly that helicopter fast enough or stop the bleeding fast enough or unscramble the radio static well enough or were ...something. But this has all served a purpose and that is to educate the younger ones here. Please take the time to print out some of these threads and get a sense of what went on for a good two decades when people came back, physically or theoretically, if, like me, they never physically left. But you will never know even in those cases what a person did or felt and only in the safest of conditions, usually at night, in the dark, under a tree, will some of this stuff come out. I think whoever said there were no casualties as a result of this series of threads is wrong. I will say that I think people have been quite hurt. I will say that I have been. I realize I am giving those who enjoy this sort of injury to others fodder for their gristmill, but so be it.

If you are younger, if you have a term paper coming up, read this all again. Realize this is the sort of thing that I listened to at every social event for decades. At work. In music. It declined over the last few years but it will always be there under the surface. You can't heal and be on guard constantly. I think they are mutually exclusive, and for me at least, there is no option but to be on guard constantly. And if I can help in some small way do what I should have been doing in a large way for decades now, I will. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 12:01 PM

MAry:

You go, girl. I admire you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Whazzup with the Vet Cop thing?
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 12:23 PM

Gargs' right. The vets were safer in the Gulf than back in the US.
During my two tours in Vietnam about 150 of us were killed. In the same period back in Australia approx. 1500 were killed in car accidents.Yeah - I know, when you work it as a percentage of those participating it comes out different.

JG/FME