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Subject: ADD: Take Me Home (Sweet Sunny South) From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Jun 19 - 02:27 AM Thanks, Jimmy. We've had plenty of mention of the sheet music at the American Memory Collection of the Library of Congress, but I guess we haven't actually posted that version. Frankly, I like the newer versions better - and the Charlie Poole version (above) best. And if "Massah" is objectionable, try changing it to "Mother." Who can object to Good Old Mom? Bloomfield, W. L. Take Me Home. Firth, Pond and Co., New York, monographic, 1853. Notated Music. Retrieved from the Library of Congress, www.loc.gov/item/sm1853.710410/. This was published in 1853 by Firth, Pond & Co., as sung by Christy's Minstrels. Composer was W.L. Bloomfield. TAKE ME HOME (W.L. Bloomfield) Take me home to the place where I first saw the light, To the sweet sunny south take me home; Where the mocking bird sung me to rest every night, Ah! why was I tempted to roam? I think with regret of the dear home I left, Of the kind hearts that sheltered me then, Of the wife and the dear ones of whom I'm bereft, And I sigh for the old place again. Take me home to the land where the orange trees grow, To my cot in the evergreen shade, Where the flowers on the river's green margin may blow Their sweets on the bank where we played. The path to our cottage they say it has grown green And the place is quite lonely around, And I know that the forms and the smiles that I've seen Now lie in the dark mossy ground. CHORUS Take me home to the place where my little ones sleep, Poor Massa lies buried close by O'er the graves of the loved ones I'm longing to weep, And among them to rest when I die. Take me home, let me see what is left that I knew, Can it be that the old house is gone? The dear friends of my childhood indeed must be few, And I must lament all alone. But yet I'll return to the place of my birth, Where my children have played by the door, When they pulled the white blossoms to garnish the hearth, That will echo their footsteps no more. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Sweet Sunny South/We Shall See Her No More From: GUEST,Jimmy Mahone, Seneca, SC Date: 13 Jun 19 - 01:42 PM For the origin of “Sweet Sunny South,” suggest you see the sheet music for “Take Me Home” (published 1853), performed by the Christy Minstrels. That file appears at https://www.loc.gov/resource/sm1853.710410.0?st=gallery. The lyrics there should answer your origin question. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 24 May 07 - 01:41 PM In addition to the folk version collected by Sharp (Massie, not Massa, the name of the person who "lies buried close by"), the song is included in vol. 3 of Brown, North Carolina Folklore. What name is used there? Posting of the lyrics from Brown would be appreciated. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Songster Bob Date: 20 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM Comparing the lyrics, as given earlier, shows us that there are strong similarities, but it looks to me like the second and fourth lines don't scan the same. It'd be hard to sing "We Shall See Her..." to the tune of "Sunny South," in particular the fourth line. It looks to me like someone knew We Shall See Her and, perhaps casting about for lyrics to put to a nice tune, grafted them onto the tune, made the necessary rhythmic changes and ended up with what we call Sweet Sunny South. WE SHALL SEE HER NO MORE: (Oh, the bright sunny South, where the sugar cane grows, And the cotton flow'rs gracefully bend in the wind Where life, like a dream, full of happiness flows, And Massa, dear massa, was always so kind) THE SUNNY SOUTH: (Take me home to the place where I first saw the light To the sweet sunny south take me home Where the mockingbirds sang me to rest ev'ry night Oh, why was I tempted to roam? Was it likely 19th C. plagiarism? I'd bet on it. If they were both completely folk songs, and not produced for the popular-music "trade," then the plagiarism might be more "unconcious," although the folk do indeed steal words (and tunes). Though, to be honest, to the folk, it's less like stealing and more like borrowing, since the idea of ownership of a song is, well, "different," shall we say? I don't want to say that folk performers don't think of songs as "owned," because they do, but ownership is more an attribute of performing than of creation. Traditional performers can "own" Barbara Allen, or any other ancient song, but can create a song or tune and let it go "out there" without qualms. This is because, in smaller communities, performers get known for their renditions, their versions, and it's not meant that they created it when it's called "their song." But I think the creator of Sweet Sunny South knew that he/she hadn't created the lyric from whole cloth, and probably relied on the weaker copyright laws and practices that were in use back then. Songbob |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:44 PM Hmmm. I don't have a recent address for Bob, Richie. His Mudcat membership is inactive, which means he hasn't been around for quite some time. Guess we'll have to leave that stone unturned. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Richie Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:42 AM Joe- The version in the DT says the source is Bob Pfeffer. Can you contact him to get info on the DT version: TO THE SWEET SUNNY SOUTH. The version I learned is slightly different but similar again to the Poole version I posted. Maybe I can dig it out of the stacks of music sometime and post it. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Nov 02 - 03:49 AM Note in the crosslinks above that there is another thread on Bright Sunny South (which uses a number of titles). Let's keep information on that song over there, if we can. Richie, as you requested, I deleted the verse from your posting of the Poole version, but I like it. I see that verse is in the Digital Tradition - do you know where did it came from? This song has special meaning for me because I used to sing it with my friend Jim. Now I'm married to Jim's widow. She heard me play a recording of it yesterday, and it brought back some good old times for us. There's a MIDI of "Sweet Sunny South" here (click), but it's too complex an arrangement for what we need here - I'm looking for a MIDI transcription of just the basic tune. -Joe Offer (click to e-mail if you can send a tune)- |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SWEET SUNNY SOUTH (from Charlie Poole) From: Richie Date: 19 Nov 02 - 09:30 AM SWEET SUNNY SOUTH (as recorded by Charlie Poole) Take me back to a place where I first saw the light, To the sweet sunny south take me home. Where the mockingbirds sang me to rest ev'ry night, Oh, why was I tempted to roam? I think of regret of the dear home I left, Of the warm hearts who cheered me then. Of the wife and the dear ones of whom I'm bereft, And a sight of the old place again. Take me home to a place where my little ones sleep And old Massa lies buried nearby O'er the graves of my loved ones I long there to weep And among them to rest and to die Take me back to the place where the orange trees grow To my cot in the evergreen shade Where the flowers on the river's green margin they grow They are sweet on the banks where we played 'Til the path to our cottage they say has grown green The place is quite lonely around And I know that the smiles and the forms I have seen Now lies in the cold mossy ground Take me home to a place where my little ones sleep And old Massa lies buried nearby O'er the graves of my loved ones I long there to weep And among them to rest and to die Notes: Charlie Poole's North Carolina Ramblers version from Kinney Rorrer's book 'Rambling Blues.' Poole recorded this in NY on May 7, 1929, CO-15425-D. It was first done by the North Carolina Ramblers in 1927, Chicago, Ill. with Roy Harvey- Vocal. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Richie Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:55 AM Here's info fron the Traditional Ballad Index on the other Sweet Sunny South: Sweet Sunny South (I), The [Laws A23]DESCRIPTION: A young Southerner, armed and ready, bids farewell to family and sweetheart. He sets off for the war, hoping to return when the Yankees are driven offAUTHOR: William Leach Bloomfield EARLIEST DATE: 1853 (see NOTES) KEYWORDS: war farewell FOUND IN: US(MA,MW,NE) Canada(Mar) REFERENCES (7 citations): Laws A23, "The Sweet Sunny South" FSCatskills 18, "The Bright Sunny South" (1 text, 1 tune) Gardner/Chickering 97, "The Sweet Sunny Souoth" (1 text, 1 tune) JHCox 76, "The Rebel Soldier" (2 texts, but only the first belongs here; the second is The Rebel Soldier) Creighton/Senior, pp. 272-273, "Sweet Sunny South" (2 texts, 1 tune) Mackenzie 49, "The Sunny South" (1 text) DY 698, SUNNYSTH Roud #800 RECORDINGS: Dock Boggs, "Bright Sunny South" (on Boggs1, BoggsCD1, ClassBanj) NOTES [269 words]: Laws, obviously, considers this piece to be of American origin. Cazden et al, however, note that the versions hardly REQUIRE a setting in the American Civil War, and that one southern version refers to a FOREIGN war. In addition, the song has been found primarily in the North. On this basis Cazden argues for an Irish rather than southern American origin. Gardner and Chickering's text has an interesting last few stanzas which wish that "from Union and Yankee our land shall be free." This sounds rather like a particularization from perhaps Kentucky or Missouri. Gary Stanton tells me, "The song is first published in this version in 1853 by Firth, Pond & Co of New York, composed by Wm Leach Bloomfield, under the title 'Take Me Home' and is available for review on the American Memory site of the Library of Congress. The title page of the ballad reports that it was sung by Edwin P. Christy at Christy's American Opera House, N. Y. Laws considered this a Civil War Ballad, and it gained new popularity among confederate music publishers during the Civil War, including Blackmar & Bro, Augusta, Georgia who credited Eugene Raymond with rearranging the song. Later publishers would credit Raymond, and Gus Meade gives an impossibly early date for Raymond's edition." - RBW Not to be confused with the sentimental song of the same name [in the Index as "Sweet Sunny South (II) - RBW], wherein the singer returns to his childhood home to find everyone dead and gone. The characteristic first lines of that song are "Take me back to the place where I first saw the light/To the sweet sunny south take me home." - PJS Last updated in version 3.6 File: LA23 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2019 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Stewie Date: 19 Nov 02 - 03:06 AM There were several oldtime recordings of it before Poole's: Da Costa Woltz's Southern Broadcasters 'Take Me Back to the Sweet Sunny South' [GE 12779] - ca May 1927. Red Patterson's Piedmont Log Rollers 'The Sweet Sunny South' [Vi 21132] - 12 Aug 1927, issued Feb 1928. North Carolina Ramblers 'Sweet Sunny South' [Pmt 3136] - ca Sept 1927. Posey Rorer & The North Carolina Ramblers 'Sweet Sunny South Take Me Home' [Ed uniss.] - 25 Sept 1928. Charlie Poole & The North Carolina Ramblers 'Sweet Sunny South' [Co 15425-D] - 7 May 1929, issued Sept 1929. There were also recordings by Tennessee Ramblers [1929], Arkansas Woodchopper [1931] and J.E. Mainer's Mountaineers [1936]. Info from Meade et alia 'Country Music Sources'. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Coyote Breath Date: 19 Nov 02 - 01:51 AM Wierd coincidence for me as I just recorded a version of Bright Sunny South as an intro to a CD of Civil War songs I'm cobbling together. The last song to be Sweet Sunny South. John Hartford recorded Sweet Sunny South on an album with his son. I hadn't heard the verse about the children and "Massie" which DOES make it sound as though it were being sung by an ex slave. I get the feeling from the song that it takes place after the war but I don't recall any specific reference to war or end of war in the song. Bright Sunny South, though is obviously at the war's beginning I am glad to see the reference to "refinement" as opposed to confinement. I think there must be other "mondegreens" because of the illogic of some of the verse lines. Why would someone's family beg them to go to war? The young man seems to be justifying his going. I'm confused too, Joe. Both songs are nice to hear and a delight to play and sing. CB |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Richie Date: 19 Nov 02 - 01:07 AM Joe- In the notes (Traditional Ballad Index) it gives a reference to Sweet Sunny South (I). My original post was refering to "Sweet Sunny South (II). Thank you for posting Traditional Ballad Index info. As you can see Laws divided the song into two versions. Version 1 is the "Northern" version I refered to about the Civil War and relates to the "Rebel Soldier." Version 2 is posted above. Traditional Ballad Index says, "Rorrer notes sheet versions of this dating back at least to the Civil War period, and possibly to several decades before that, but gives no details." I think Rorrer was refering to the Sheet music for "The Bright Sunny South, words by F. M. Prince and music by A. Scherzer," printed by Klemm and Bro., 1848, that is at American Memory. This is not the same song. It is a completely different song in 3/4 time. Someone probably told Kinney (Rorrer) about it and since probably had no access to it (as we do) he thought it was the same song. The lyrics of WE SHALL SEE HER NO MORE By C. Hart; Music By F. Buckley from American Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 10 seem to echo the cadence and general content of the "Sweet Sunny South." WE SHALL SEE HER NO MORE: (Oh, the bright sunny South, where the sugar cane grows, And the cotton flow'rs gracefully bend in the wind Where life, like a dream, full of happiness flows, And Massa, dear massa, was always so kind) THE SUNNY SOUTH: (Take me home to the place where I first saw the light To the sweet sunny south take me home Where the mockingbirds sang me to rest ev'ry night Oh, why was I tempted to roam? Take me home to the place where my little one sleeps, For Massie lies buried close by O'er the graves of my loved ones I long there to weep And among them to rest when I die.) It just seemed like they were related when I first saw the lyrics. Perhaps there is some relationship. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Nov 02 - 11:51 PM Boy, I wonder if there's a way to split the discussion of these two songs, or not. I posted a version of "Bright Sunny South" in the other thread (see crosslinks) because it seems to deal mostly with that song. This thread seems to be more on "Sweet Sunny South" (take me back to the place...) I'm confused. -Joe Offer- Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on "Sweet": Sweet Sunny South (II)DESCRIPTION: "Take me back to the place where I first saw the light, To my sweet sunny south take me home." The singer (perhaps an ex-slave) describes home and how much he misses it. He hopes to return to the graves of "my little ones" "to rest and to die" among themAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1918 (Cecil Sharp collection) KEYWORDS: home death burial grief homesickness loneliness return family FOUND IN: US(Ro,SE) REFERENCES (6 citations): Hubbard, #119, "Sweet Sunny South" (1 text, 1 tune) SharpAp 186, "The Sunny South" (3 texts, 3 tunes) BrownIII 400, "The Sweet Sunny South" (1 text) BrownSchinhanV 400, "The Sweet Sunny South" (1 tune plus a text excerpt) Rorrer, p. 88, "Sweet Sunny South" (1 text) DT, SUNSOUTH Roud #772 RECORDINGS: Arkansas Woodchopper [pseud. For Luther Ossenbrink] "Sweet Sunny South" (Conqueror 7880, 1931) DaCosta Woltz's Southern Broadcasters, "Take Me Back to the Sweet Sunny South" (Gennett 6176/Champion 15318/Challenge 333, 1927) Roy Harvey & the North Carolina Ramblers, "Sweet Sunny South" (Paramount 3136, 1928) J. E. Mainer's Mountaineers, "Take Me Home to the Sweet Sunny South" (Bluebird B-6479/Montgomery Ward M-5035, 1936) New Lost City Ramblers, "Take Me Back to the Sweet Sunny South" (on NLCR04) Red Patterson's Piedmont Log Rollers, "The Sweet Sunny South" (Victor 21132, 1927) Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers, "Sweet Sunny South" (Columbia 15425-D, 1929; on CPoole01, CPoole05) Posey Rorrer and the North Carolina Ramblers, "Sweet Sunny South Take Me Home" (Edison, unissued, 1928) Jackson Young [pseud. for Ben Jarrell], "Take Me Back to the Sweet Sunny South" (Champion 15318/Herwin 75555, 1927) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "On the Banks of the Old Tennessee" (floating lyrics) SAME TUNE: '31 Depression Blues (File: Rc31DB) Bring Me Back to My Home (by Johnny Burke) (Johnny Burke (William J. Kirwin, editor), _John White's Collection of Johnny Burke Songs_, Harry Cuff Publications, St. John's, 1981, #66, p. 105, with no tune listed but clearly inspired by this) NOTES [98 words]: Rorrer notes sheet versions of this dating back at least to the Civil War period, and possibly to several decades before that, but gives no details. It seems fairly clear that the original versions were about a slave who had gained his freedom by some means but now wished to be back in his old place. Songwriters of the mid nineteenth century were fond of this (propagandistic) theme. One wonders how popular it would have been had the audience been Blacks rather than Whites. - RBW Not to be confused with "The Sweet Sunny South (I)" [Laws A23], a Confederate soldier's farewell. - PJS, RBW Last updated in version 4.3 File: DTsunsou Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2019 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Richie Date: 18 Nov 02 - 11:15 PM Sharps third version is different and might be related to the northern version of the same song which George Edwards called, "The Shades of the Palmetto," which is actually a form of "The Dying Ranger." The fragmentary version resembles forms of "The Rebel Soldier:" O mother, dear mother, for me do not weep, For in some lonesome graveyard I expect to sleep. You taught me to be brave from a boy to a man, And I'm going to fight for my own native land. (Mr. and Mrs. Dol Small May 23, 1918) Sharp EFSSA. If you look at the thread link (by Guest-Q) the original question was about the northern version which has been found in Nova Scotia, thus the confusion about the song. Both the Doc Watson and Doc Boggs versions are different yet similar versions to the "Northern" version. The third Sharp version is a single verse of teh "Southern" version with a poorer melody. -Richie |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SUNNY SOUTH From: Richie Date: 18 Nov 02 - 10:43 PM THE SUNNY SOUTH Cecil Sharp No. 186 from EFSSA Sung by Mrs. Lucy Cannady At Endicott, VA. Aug 23 1918 Take me home to the place where I first saw the light To the sweet sunny south take me home Where the mockingbirds sang me to rest ev'ry night Oh, why was I tempted to roam? Take me home to the place where my little one sleeps, For Massie lies buried close by O'er the graves of my loved ones I long there to weep And among them to rest when I die. Take me back to the place where the orange trees grow To my cot in the evergreen shade Where the myrtle and the evergreen margin may blow, On the sweet on the banks where we play. *Take me back to the place, let me see what I knew And the path to the cottage they say has gone green, And the place is quite lonely around. And I know that the smiles and the forms I have seen Now lie in the dark mossy ground. *By editing the top line, the last verse fits. Notes: This is Sharp's best version of the three he collected in 1918. The last verse usually begins without the top line. I'm not sure why there are five lines because the music has not been changed. Sharp collected 27 songs and ballads that day (Aug.23) from the Cannady family. A photograph taken by Sharp shows Mr. and Mrs. Charles Cannady sitting on the steps of their log-cabin. There were still Cannadys living in the area sixty years later. This is almost exactly the version sung by Charlie Poole in Oct. 1927. Since it is from the same region that is no surprise. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: GUEST,Q Date: 18 Nov 02 - 07:38 PM Here is direction to the Rasmussen "The Sweet Sunny South." Sweet Sunny South |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: GUEST,Q Date: 18 Nov 02 - 06:26 PM "The Bright Sunny South," is in Cox, Folk Songs of the South, from Sam Turman, KY, 1918. The Dock Boggs version is a variety of this. In the second verse, Boggs misheard refinement, and put confinement. I will post the Cox version if there is any interest. Some verses are quite different. Boggs version in thread 6248: Bright Sunny South |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: GUEST,Q Date: 18 Nov 02 - 06:12 PM Hit the submit button before I was ready. A Ms of the tune of "Sweet Sunny South," fiddle tune, along with a 42 second performance, by Henry Reed, is in American Memory. From the Cowell Collection, a performance of "Sweet Sunny South" by Judge Charles Rasmussen, also is in American Memory. The tunes in the Reed Collection may be found at http://memory.loc.gov/ammen/hrhtml/afcreedtitlindex.html, Reed Coll. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: dick greenhaus Date: 18 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM Sharp collected Sweet Sunny South in (ca)1918. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: GUEST,Q Date: 18 Nov 02 - 05:44 PM American Memory has sheet music for "We Shall See Her No More," dated 1853, "Sung by Buckley's New Orleand Minstrels, composed by Frederick Buckley," printed by Firth and Pond, New York. The name C. Hart is not on the sheet music, but only on a broadside printed by Andrews, New York, no date. Sheet music for "The Bright Sunny South, words by F. M. Prince and music by A. Scherzer," printed by Klemm and Bro., 1848, is also at American Memory. It is a different song. |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: sed Date: 18 Nov 02 - 04:39 PM Good question! Take me home to the place where I first saw the light; to the sweet sunny south take me home where the wild birds sing me to sleep every night Oh why was I tempted to roam? Nothing like cold weather to get us singing that song. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Sweet Sunny South Origin From: Richie Date: 18 Nov 02 - 02:00 PM Here's some of my info: Printed versions, under a number of titles, were usually credited to either 'Raymond' or else 'W L Bloomfield (in the 1850's). The cover of an 1850's music sheet is reprinted with the notes to the version recorded by Kentucky fiddle-player Buddy Thomas on his album Kitty Puss (Rounder CD 0032). I have several sources for this info. So did this "come from" or "along with" the "We Shall See Her No More" song from American Memory or are they different but related songs? -Richie |
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Subject: Lyr Add: WE SHALL SEE HER NO MORE From: GUEST,Richie Date: 18 Nov 02 - 01:36 PM It seems like the verse of "We Shall See Her No More" (from American Memory Collection) is the origin of "Sweet/Bright Sunny South." No one really had any detailed older info about it in the DT. What do you think? WE SHALL SEE HER NO MORE Words By C. Hart; Music By F. Buckley Publisher: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: George S. Harris American Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 10 Oh, the bright sunny South, where the sugar cane grows, And the cotton flow'rs gracefully bend in the wind Where life, like a dream, full of happiness flows, And Massa, dear massa, was always so kind; Oh, yes, it was there in the south that I met With sweet Lilla, the pride of my heart, And the joy that I felt I can never forget, Till the last spark of life from my bosom shall part. CHORUS--But now she has gone, And her sweet life is o'er, We shall see her no more, We shall see her no more. How often at eve, when our labours were o'er, We roved where the river ran swiftly along, And often we sat on the blossoming shore To list to the Mocking bird's rapturous song. Oh, yes, it was there in the bright Southern land, By the river side under the old shady tree, As we sat all alone in the sunset so grand, That dear little Lilla was plighted to me. -Richie |
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