Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop

Subject: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wilco
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:16 AM

For years, I've been looking for a workshop about the shared heritage of US Black and White gospel music, their common origins, singing styles, etc. Jerry Ramussen (sp?) does this workshop with his gospel quartet! What is the proper etiquette to beg for an online workshop?
(Other than groveling, whining, and begging)

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:58 AM

How about sending a Mudcat personal message to Jerry? We've been, 2 years in a row, to the in-person one he does at NOMAD w/ Gospel Messengers & The Beans & it's great!

bbc

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:04 PM

Hi, Wilco... almost missed this... been gone all day.

As I PMed you, I started pulling out CDs to make a Gospel In Black and White CD. That's how the workshop started a dozen years ago. I made a cassette for my own listening pleasure with some of my favorite white gospel on one side, and favorite black gospel cuts on the other. To hear the Staples Singers and the Carter Family both singing Uncloudy Day is an amazing experience... Mavis and Mother Maybelle. I've had the pleasure of running this workshop at the Adirondack Folk Gospel Festival with the black gospel done by people like The Moving Star Hall Singers from the Georgia Sea Islands, a blind, black street singer, and a black gospel quartet from a storefront church in Brooklyn, along with Janette Carter and some fine traditional singers. Black folks are as rare as republicans, at a folk festival (sorry, jimmyt.) I ran a folk festival and concert series for 27 years and only managed to book one black gospel quartet (and they got lost on the way and never made it..)

Being basically a folk singer, I've done mostly white gospel in my life... just as part of the fabric of folk music. But, I've always itched to hear more black gospel, because the rhythm moves me. Even though folk music is one of my first loves, most folk music is performed by people(me included) who look like they've been Crazy-glued to their chair. Having grown up on rhythm and blues, boogie woogie and then soul music, I really responded to black gospel when I first heard it.

The workshop we just did at NOMAD, with bbc and DuaneD in attendance, I talked mostly about rhythm. Black gospel is almost impossible to do, sitting down. Like trying to do bluegrass sitting down. Over the years, I've gotten my friends, The Beans, who share the workshop with us, to get up on their feet when they sing... at least on some of the songs, and I get them to help us on some of ours. Now, jimmyt likes black gospel, being a bass player. In a gospel quartet, the bass singer is a key part of the rhythm. He sets the rhythm and the pace, if the song is a capella. I play electric guitar with my group, and I like to ride the bass strings a little hard on the faster songs.

When singing black gospel, even on the slow songs, there's a tendency to chop the words at the end of the lines, rather than holding them. When I first joined the all male (black) chorus I sing in, it seemed unnatural to my ears, chopping up the lines. But I realized that it gives an internal rhythm and energy that drives even the slow songs.
When we're singing, the lead singer will often tell us harmony guys to "snap" the phrases. I notice that when we sing for a folk audience, they immediately pick up the harmonies, and hold the words, long after we've snapped them off, savoring the harmonies. It really is the best example that I can give of the difference between black and white gospel. White gospel more commonly has a flowing rhythm, holding out and sustaining notes.

Well that's a first comment. If I see anyone besides the two of you have an interest in this, I'll add some more. I'd just say that when we did our last song of the workshop at NOMAD, Trouble In My Way, nobody was standing still (and everyone was standing.) I ran into someone the following week who'd been there who said that she was never into all that hand clapping and moving stuff, but she found herself on her feet, clapping her hands and really getting in to the rhythm of the music.

Thanks for asking, Wilco.. and good to hear from you. bbc


Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Socorro
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 10:19 PM

I'm interested in everything you have to say on the subject, so I'll be following this thread - let me add my thanks to you, Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 10:21 PM

Wilco:

At the risk of soundin' simplistic, I'd recommend giving a little time listenin' to Son House, Robert Johnson, Lightnin' Hopkins and the songs of Willie Brown. Now merge these guys with early Cuck Berry and Elvis and you have the abics of "Black/White Gospel Worshop" Throw in a little Ralph Stanley and Bill Monroe and you have the foundation.

Now take it one step further and remember that the entire motivation was to give *praise* to the Lord and.... YOU ARE THERE. The rest are details and lots of folks, lesser known, just *doing it*.

Yeah, it ain't complicated, if broken down into it's simpliest denomonators. Might of fact, it's more just paying attention to some of the folks I've mentioned. The rest will fall into place...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 11:18 PM

Hi, Bobert: There are some more ingredients to go in the stew. When I simplify things to black and white gospel, it is just that... a simplification. Lines blur, just as they do between Jimmy Rogers and the country blues guitarists, Little Richard/Boogie Woogie/gospel
shouts/rock and roll. When I do the workshop, it's perhaps artificially limited to black gospel and white, non-bluegrass gospel. Bluegrass gospel has a whole feel of its own, that maybe Wilco could talk about.

Let me compare(on paper... you have to provide the ears... the difference in approach to Farther Along by the Carter Family and The Fairfield Four. The Carter Family take the song very straightforward, with their chugga chugga rhythm propelled by Maybelle's guitar..

Farther along, we'll know all about it
Farther along, we'll understand why
Cheer up my brothers, live in the sunshine
We'll understand it all by and by

You can hear the alternating bass line pumping along underneath the melody.

Take the same song, let the bass sing the lead, and you get more of a "call and response" version of the song..

Lead: Farther along                   We'll know
Harmony             Farther along we'll          know all about it

Lead: Farther along                   Understand why
Harmony             Farther along we'll             Understand why

Lead: Cheer up my brothers                  live on
Harmony                   Cheer up my brothers    line in the sunshine

Lead: We'll understand                   We'll understand
Harmony                We'll understand it                We'll ...

On the last line of the verse, the bass singer may repeat "We'll understand" and the harmonies will keep answering "We'll understand it" until the lead finally closes out with "By and By." At the end of the song, the lead will probably start improvising lines, and the harmonies will just keep repeating "We'll understand it," until the lead sings "By and By," and they'll respond with "By and By."

I can hear all of this in my head as I'm typing it, but if you haven't heard a bass lead on this song, the best I can suggest is to listen to the bass lines in your head, slow and lazy. The rhythm of the song is slowed down to give space for the lead to improvise.

Having the bass sing the lead in this style is very commonplace in black gospel. Good old A.P. Carter only sang lead on a handful of songs, and they still had that chuga chuga rhythm to them.

One thing that you can be sure of, Bobert, is that the Carter Family heard a lot of blues and black gospel, and the black gospel quartets heard plenty of white gospel and country music. Joe and Frankie, in my group, grew up listening to the Grand Ole' Opry as much as they did to black gospel and blues. Get them anywhere near a bluegrass band at a festival and you'll never pry them away. But, when we do a white gospel song like Angel Band, they just naturally slip in a bass line, and some other lead-in lines. They can do Carter Family real well, too, and get a big kick out of it. I've often done Farther Along, Carter Family style, before joe sings bass on the version like the Fairfield Four. We do a pretty good Carter Family. But, nobody would confuse the two versions.

As long as there's some interest in this, I'll keep offering my observations, and look forward to hearing yours. I'd like to hear Wilco talk about bluegrass gospel. It's very different than the Carter Family (even when Monroe did songs associated with the Carter Family.) There's also a very recognizable, almost formalized harmony in bluegrass, and it's far more instrument driven than black gospel... much of which was done a capella, or with just a single guitar until the contemporary gospel folks added drums, keyboards, a bass guitar and a couple of lead guitars.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 11:23 PM

While you're trying to hear Farther Along, black gospel style, hear the harmony lines "snapped" Far-ther-a-lonnnng-we'll. Break up the lines with a snap, and run it against a lazy almost "Why Is everybody always pickin' on me" rhythm and blues bass lead, and you'll start to get the feel. Actually, we learned it from The Harmonizing Four..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 11:28 PM

Yeah, Jerry, go, go and go with it, brother. You be the man. Go....

Bobert

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 07:58 AM

OOHS, OOOH-WAHS, MMMM'S, DOO-WOPS AND DUMM-DUMMS

One of the most characteristic sounds in black gospel is the backing sounds of the harmony singers that frame the lead singer. This is a very old style of singing, and probably comes from a capella singing where the harmony sounds imitated instruments. Even as recently as the Mills Brothers, imitating instruments by vocalizing has been an important part of the black tradition. It was the foundation for the rhythm and blues groups and street corner singers of the 50's.

If you listen to what is now called "Southern Gospel... groups like the Cathedrals, the style of singing owes much more to "Barber Shop" harmonies. The harmony singers are much more likely to either sing the same verses as the lead, or the lead will sing against the instrumental accompaniment, with no vocal harmony. In it's contemporary useage, "Southern Gospel" means white gospel quartet or quintets, and their style is very different than southen black gospel quartets.

Even though the bass singer in Southern Gospel Groups often sings fill in lines, much the same as bass singers in black gospel groups,
the wordless dumm, dumm, dumms of the black bass singer are not a common style in white groups. Our bass singer, Joe Evans does a wonderful "walking bass" rhythm made up of dumm, dumm sounds imitating the slapped bass lines of a stand-up bass. In more contemporary black gospel, that "walking bass" line is now taken by an electric bass, and you rarely, if ever hear the bass singer carrying the line. It would just be a duplication of what the electric bass is doing. Sometimes the dumm, dumm finished of a song, doing the last verse lead without words. Sometimes, the bass keeps
the walking bass going throughout the song.

Trying to verbalize is a pale imitation of hearing the music. If you haven't heard much black gospel, and want some suggestions about good CDs, you can PM me. I am listening to a wonderful four CD set that I just won on eBay... 100 classic recordings of black gospel from the early 1900's through the 1950's.. I hear all of these things happening in the songs as I'm typing. I'll check Camsco to see if they carry it... and if so, post it here..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Dani
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 05:41 PM

Count me in! One of my favorite subjects, and I'd love to hear what Jerry and the rest of you all have to say about it.

Then let's get together and SING!

Dani

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 06:13 PM

Hi, Dani:

That's what it all comes down to... singing. Reducing music to these little black marks takes much of the Spirit out of it. But, I could hardly ignore Wilco's request (despite his not posting further to this thread...) I'm counting on Wilco to offer his observations on bluegrass gospel, and maybe someone more knowledgeable than me (pick anyone at random) can talk about shape note singing. I don't sing shape note music, but I have an interest contrast to make, with a CD of black shape note singing(black folkses singing it... not black-colored notes..) along with the more common southern white shape note singers..

I've been pulling CDs out and matching songs in black and white versions, and much to my amazement, don't have Will The Circle Be Unbroken, Uncloudy Day or Farther Along on CD by the Carter Family. I have them on albums, but can't patch them in for burning a CD. I'm checking eBay and Amazon.com, and even with all the re-issues they've done (unless you buy the Bear Family $179 boxed set) I don't see Farther Along or Uncloudy Day reissued on CD. I can play them in my head, any time I want, but I was looking for a CD...

Join the discussion, Dani..

I'll do another post now on falsetto

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 06:24 PM

FALSETTO

Another major difference between black and white gospel. As far as I'm concerned, Claude Jeter of the Swan Silvertones was blessed with the greatest falsetto of the last fifty years. Listening to him go up into falsetto makes me shake my head in amazement. If you want to get a small suggestion of his falsetto, listen to Paul Simon on Loves Me Like A Rock, when he goes into naah, naaah, naahs at the end of the song. He really gets the feeling of Claude Jeter on the faster falsetto singing. Interestingly, the Dixie Hummingbirds, who back Paul on that track also recorded the song, but Ira Tucker, the lead singer, doesn't go up into falsetto. My gospel quartet had the great honor of opening for the Dixie Hummingbirds last summer. This is their 73rd year of singing, and Ira Tucker has been in the group most of those years. He's hunched over now, and frail, but when he starts singing, he stands straight as a rod and can still bring a church to it's feet.

Falsetto isn't a gift that everyone has. Maybe Ira doesn't have a strong falsetto. I wish that I did, but it's only certain songs where I can sing falsetto with any strength. My gospel quartet only has one tenor, so there are songs where we need two harmonies above the lead, with the bass below. Frankie (a baritone like me) has a great falsetto, so he takes the falsetto harmony most of the time. But, there is one song that Frankie leads, and I get to do the falsetto... what a kick..

Why isn't falsetto common in white gospel? I have on idea. Maybe falsetto singing goes all the way back to Africa, but I don't know that. I have some African gospel, but by now the singers are probably influenced as much by American gospel as they are their own tradition. Maybe falsetto in black gospel came about the way it has naturally in our quartet... wanting two harmonies above the lead, and only having one tenor in the group. Whatever works.

Like much of black gospel singing, falsetto worked its way into early rhythm and blues groups, just as the bass singer took the humorous one liners in songs like Charlie Brown. When falsetto is done beautifully, like Claude Jeter does it, it can be spine-chilling.
If you haven't heard the Swan Silvertones, you have a great treat in store for you... and most of their material has been re-issued.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: khandu
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 08:26 PM

Most of the Gospel quartets that I am familiar with are the white Southern Gospel groups, which I dislike immensely. They always seemed so "sanitized" and their gospel seemed (to me) to be an affectation.

Sometime back, I saw a video with Charlie Daniels being back by a black quartet. I loved it! I discovered later that the quartet was the Fairfield Four.

Jerry sent me a Fairfield Four CD as well as The Gospel Messengers CD. Upon first listening, I thought, "This is how Gospel quartets are supposed to sound!"

After reading the postings on this thread, they help to formulate in my own mind what I enjoyed about the Black Gospel. Very informative and well stated, Jerry! Thank you!

khandu

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: GUEST,Walking Eagle
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM

Anyone interested in hearing and seeing something about what is being discussed here, should check out the video "Amazing Grace" from the library. This is a marvelous video hosted by Bill Moyers for PBS. My feeble attempt at explaining what is done would be unremarkable. Check out the video and see for yourself.

I'm going to keep an eye on this thread as well.

W.E.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 09:16 PM

My own pleasure in white southern gospel is not the TV Greatest Hits versions, but the old Doc Watson/Clarence Ashley, E.C. Ball, Wade Mainer and His Mountaineers, Uncle Dave Macon, Jean Ritchie folk roots gospel. It sounds like the kind of music that would have been sung in a small wooden church, not in $400 matching suits.

This morning, I taught the congregation in our church to sing The Old Account Was Settled Long Ago, which I learned from a live broadcast of Doc Watson, Clarence Ashley and Fred Price that I taped off WBAI in New York City in the early sixties. At coffee hour after the service, a woman came up to me and told me that she had been singing that song all morning befor she came to church. She's the first person I've ever met who had even heard the song, let alone knew it.

I had the great pleasure of hearing the Fairfield Four about ten years ago. I thought they were from Fairfield, Connecticut... shows how dumb I can be. I had never heard of them before. The group has been around more than 60 years. Since then, their lead singer died, and they seem a little lost to me. They're backing everyone else, and making a much better living now, which pleases me. But, hearing Elvis Costello, LeRoy Parnell(who I really like)Charlie Daniels and all the others singing the lead makes them a back-up band. Everyone seems to want them to give some credibility by backing them. I'm waiting for Elton John to record with them. I'm very happy that they are finally receiving recognition for their music, but I wish they'd stick with what they've been doing for over 60 years. If you like the Fairfield Four, by the way, check out the Harmonizing Four who overlap on material and have much more re-issued and inexpensively available.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 06:22 AM

Wow, Jerry, this is great! I'm tracing this thread and following it with interest!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Richie
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:44 AM

Great Thread Jerry,

I have a bluegrass group, "Bluegrass Messengers" and we do black gospel versions and white gospel versons of bluegrass songs. I learned black gospel from teaching black gospel to students who would bring in tpaes and CD's for me to teach them. The bass player in our group is black and plays in a black church.

We do "Lonesome Valley" and "Woke Up this Morning" in the black Southern gospel style, plus in other songs like "Bluegrass Boogie" we use the call and response style then at the end we do a vamp (I call that the repeated end section) with the back-up singers singing "Bluegrass Boogie" and the lead improvising over it.

I have also sung in shape-note groups where there are fuging tunes but the black gospel style singing is the main style I'm trying to incorporate in our "bluegrass" group.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Socorro
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:06 PM

Jerry, you said, "...much of which was done a capella, or with just a single guitar until the contemporary gospel folks added drums, keyboards, a bass guitar and a couple of lead guitars."

I am personally even more interested in the music as sung in church, very much including the female singers - & i find it very difficult to find satisfactory recordings (in contrast to the male quartets, where you can find a number of excellent recordings).
I understand the reason (reluctance to mixing sacred with worldly). From the very few really black-church (with women) recordings, i find piano (not keyboard, of course) going back to the very earliest days.
Drums,also, but almost always a piano.
You know why i mention this - as i have a hard time finding those very old piano accompanists on record, & i utilize any forum i can find, to try to find more recordings i can listen to. Any comments?

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wilco
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:50 PM

This is a great thread!!!!! Keep em' coming. In the Southeast USA, on these border Appalchia areas like Chattannoga, where there was a huge class of equally poor, uneducated blacks and whites, much of the music was shared. Even today, on a Sunday morning, you'll hear the same songs in black and white churches. I can go to my in-laws' little Church of God and hear them do some old gospel numbers, with steel guitars and drums. Then, I can go a mile away, and hear the same song, done a little differently, in a black congregation.
    In about 1966, my in-laws moved from a little mining community, about thyirty miles North from here, called Gruetli. They didn't have indoor plumbing, and the entertainment was music. Non-church music was considered dangerous, since it was associated with drinking and carousing. Greutli was/is a little coal mining community.
    About thirty miles south from here is Sand Mountain, Alabama, where sacred heart singing has thrived for decades, which might be the only area in the US where it survived.
    You can listen to these raw, unadulterated traditional singing, and you can hear these amazing rythyms and inflections.
    White Southern Gospel singing is largely a commercial venture.

keep it coming Jerry and Thanks!!!!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:55 PM

Glad to see the postings! Nice to come home and find so much to respond to.

First of All... Richie, I see we need to get to know each other. I can see it now: The Bluegrass Messengers and the Gospel Messengers. A couple of years ago, we split a concert with an early country music group from California called the Reedy Buzzards... they do earl Delmore Brothers, Blue Sky Boys style country, and we did an afternoon of old gospel and country music. What a kick that was. I'm VERY interested in what you're doing... we come from the other direction, singing black gospel and putting a touch of black in the white gospel songs we do, like Angel Band. It's a fascinating idea merging the energy of bluegrass and the energy of black gospel. We do Woke Up This Morning With My Mind Standing On Jesus too, driven by my electric guitar.

I'll PM you and talk more about what you're doing..

Socorro: Yes, I'm afraid I haven't sent you very much female lead, piano accompanied black gospel. And you're right... there are twenty albums of male quartets for every one of black women gospel singers. Once you get beyond Mahalia Jackson, Sister Rosetta Tharpe(who played guitar) and a few others, there's not a lot available. I'll go back and listen to my Dorothy Love Coates and Sallie Martine CDs and see if there are any tracks accompanied by piano. There are some old jazz/gospel recordings of black women singing with trumpet, drums, piano and bass scattered around in my collection. I'll have to se if I have enough to send you some stuff..

Wilco: Good to see you here. I'll have a little more to talk about, with Sacred Harp (and I mean a little, because I don't sing Sacred Harp and can't talk particularly intelligently about it.) I have a CD sitting in front of me :The Colored Sacred Harp by the Wiregrass Sacred Harp Singers. I want to listen to it again and read the enclosed booklet. I ran across the CD in a used CD store and was a little surprised because I'd never heard black sacred harp singers.
But, more about that later.

Finally, the 4CD set of 100 Gospel Greats that I won on eBay is available on Amazon.com. (I submitted a request to Camsco to see if they can get it, too, but haven't heard from Dick yet.) It's a great set, and Amazon.com sells it for $23.95. It's a four CD set and has unusually generous representation by most of the key groups and singer, up until the 50's.

The First Volume is almost exclusively very early black gospel quartets (including one track by Josh White and His Carolinians. The groups include The Famous Blue Jay Singers, Mitchell's Christian Singers (one of my favorite primitive, early groups), and the Heavenly Gospel Singers. The second CD has seven tracks by the Golden Gate Quartet, six tracks by the Charioteers, three tracks by the Trumpeteers and six by the Dixie Hummingbirds. The Third CD has six tracks by Sister Rosetta Tharpe, eight by Mahalia Jackson, five by Sister Ernestine Washington and five by the Original Gospel Harmonettes, featuring Dorothy Love Coates. (The third CD sounds promising for you Socorro... I haven't gotten to it, but will listen to it next. The 4th CD has six tracks by the Soul Stirrers, five by the Pilgrim Travellers(an influential group) six tracks by the Five Blind Boys of Alabama and six tracks by The Five Blind Boys of Mississippi. A wonderful collection...

More, later

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM

IMPROVISATION:

When I think of Improvisation, I think of instrumental music. Jazz is built on improvisation as sax, trumpet, guitar, bass and piano take the skeleton of a melody and chord progression and let their imagination flow freely. I love jazz, for that reason. And then, I think of someone like Jimmi Hendrix, who could build astonishing cascades of melody, all somehow related to the basic melody of the song.

Bluegrass band members take turns stepping up to the mike and strutting their stuff, improvising on the melody and stepping in and out with the precision of olympic gymnasts.

But, what about vocal improvisation? Ella Fitzgerald and a handful of others could scat sing with all the freedom and imagination of the finest jazz musicians. Blues singers, when they aren't confined to the time restraints of making a record, can stretch a song out for a long time, and within the comfortable framework of the blues, can sing lines as they come to them.

When it comes to gospel, the division between black and white gospel is plain to see. When I first joined an all black male chorus, I felt very intimidated about the prospect of singing a lead and having to improvise. Me being white, and all. I really didn't think that I could ever do it. But the Chorus Director has an uncanny ability to know what each member of the chorus is capable of doing. He'll try to get people to stretch, but he never pushes them beyond what they can do. The first two or three leads he gave me were very straightforward.. step out in front of the chorus, sing three or four verses, and lead the chorus into the choruses. When the Director knew I was capable of singing a lead where I'd have to improvise, he gave me a song that required it. I had talked to him when I joined the Chorus about improvising, expressing my reservations, and he said that only a few of the men in the chorus could do it. (and here I thought it was genetic.) When he gave me a song where I had to improvise... and lead the chorus with my electric guitar (which no one had ever done before) I was very doubtful. But, darned if I wasn't able to do it! In the process, I learned about improvising. I've kidded around that improvising takes a lot of practice. That sounds like a contradiction in terms. Singers who improvise (like jazz musicians) carry around a whole bag of phrases... words, melodies, chord progressions. When they improvise, they pull the lines out of their bag and slide them in to the song effortlessly. The work is mostly in filling your bag.

In black gospel, you fill your bag with lines like:

   The Jordan river is chilly and cold
   It chills the body but not the soul

   He's a doctor in the sick room
   He's a lawyer in a courtroom

   He's the bright and morning star
   He's a wheel in a wheel

There are a thousand lines like that, that you can slip into a song when you're improvising.

Then, there are all the "relative" lines.. the "Oh, Father," or "Oh, Mother" lines.''

There are lines like:

   You got trouble in your home?
   You say your children won't do right?
   You say your Husband won't do right?

And on and on, each line interspersed with the harmonies repeating a short phrase, like "Jesus He will fix it" to the trouble in your home lines.

When you're singing a lead, and the Spirit is with you, and the church is on it's feet swaying and clapping in rhythm, there's nothing can stop you. You can build to a fever pitch and get people up dancing in the aisles. And then sometimes, new lines just naturally flow... little snippets from songs lodged deep in your brain, or lines that keep building on the same idea. It is a powerful experience.

Now, Richie, if you're starting to build that into bluegrass gospel, you'll feel the power flowing through you, as the lines keep building. And that will be one of the rare times when white gospel builds on improvisation.

One last comment. A jazz guitar hero of mine once told me, when I commented that a long phrase in an improvisation was the same one I'd heard the guitarist do twenty years ago... note for note,

" A musician's style is the summation of his limitations."

If you ever find yourself in a position where you can improvise against a backing group, be sure to fill you bag first.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Nancy King
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM

Fantastic thread, folks! Thanks to Jerry and all!

I have attended several workshops in gospel singing led by Ethel Caffie-Austin of West Virginia. In addition to her teaching at the Augusta Workshops, she has often done an afternoon workshop in which she teaches several songs to the -- virtually all-white -- group, which they sing at her evening concert. Obviously a one-day workshop isn't enough to make these white folks into a real black gospel choir, but it comes amazingly close. It has given me a much greater understanding of the harmonies and rhythms of black gospel music. And Ethel's wonderful personality adds immeasurably to the experience.

Cheers, Nancy

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:24 PM

Hi, Nancy:

Join the chorus... Sunday, my group was scheduled to do a half hour of gospel at the small church my wife and I go to. We've performed there several times... raised over $1,500 toward installing an elevator for the elderly (being able to see "elderly" lurking around the corner.) Our tenor was in Florida for Thanksgiving, so I knew we'd only be a trio. Then last week, the two other Messengers had to back out... one was in the hospital, and the other had to go out of town suddenly. That left me.

What I did was a little like what you described in the workshop. I taught the whole congregation to sing their parts... both for white gospel (The Old Account Was Settled) and black gospel(several songs where I taught them all the responses.) We had such a great time, that it was hard to settle down for the service. I didn't help by doing two more songs during the service which had everybody moving.
I finished the workshop we did at NOMAD this year by getting everyone up and having them sing the responses of the other Messengers as I sang lead on Trouble In My Way. I can see doing a whole workshop, really getting people into the phrasing, and trying to loosen everyone up. I think that may be the hardest thing to learn to do... just loosen up, feel the rhythm and let 'er rip. You've given me some good ideas for next year's workshop..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Richie
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:31 PM

Jerry-

Bluegrass and southern gospel uses the call and response or echo but there is very little vocal improvisation. Even on songs where we don't use back-up singers and multiple voice parts, I still try to improvise the melody in a blues/jazz style and occasionally yodel and make abrupt high pitch yells.

The Appalachian ballad style solo singing (usually for slower songs) is ornamental and improvisational to a point, but there aren't extra improvised lyrics or sections designated for improv.

I'm working on the black gospel song, "Put Your Hand in Mine" for our next CD. I'm not sure if there will be enough room for it though. I learned from a tape of a small black church service in the area (NC). Do you know that song?

Keep it up,

Richie

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: khandu
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:55 PM

In 1980, I went into a studio to record a "soulful" version of "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms". When I arrived, my recording friend had a surprise waiting for me. He had called in a black quartet, "The Archie Singers", to do background vocals for me.

We recorded it "live", howbeit, I was in a booth, could see no one, but I heard them over the headphones. As I began the verse, I was concerned as to how it would turn out; we had not rehearsed at all!

When I got to the first chorus, I thought the Heavens had opened up! It sounded like flesh and blood angels joining in. Chills went throughout my body, and stayed there.

Then, they began to improvise, with moanings and groanings, sliding little comments in here and there. As I "Oh I'm leeeeaaaaning", I heard one of the quartet sing "I wonder are you leaning?" It was truly a magical moment for me.

We did the one song. I walked out with my heart soaring and my head spinning! Over the years, the tapes have disappeared. One of my friends has the one known remaining tape, but, I cannot find him!

I have listened to Dylan's "Gospel" recordings and on the "Saved" album, there is the woman with the most wonderful moaning, groaning voice! She reminds me so much of "Rosie" who sang on my recording.

That Black Spiritual singing at my session made the old hymn ALIVE!

khandu

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:19 PM

Hi, Richie: I don't know the song, Put Your Hand In Mine. Undoubtedly, Masato has the complete discography of the song. It's not in my African American Heritage Hymnal... I'll check Songs Of Zion, but the title isn't familiar. I've just run through my CDs looking for white and black versions of the same song, and don't remember seeing the title there. I'll ask the guys if they've heard it...


Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 12:59 PM

We do these songs every week, and others from the wider reaches of the gospel genre. Like Jerry we have learned from many styles as we have soaked up the work of those who have gone before us. I think right now I have about 3,000 gospel tune files (MIDI, MP3, CD cuts, and so forth), on my hard drive. When I cam casting about for a new song or two for the week, I love to bring up the same song done as many different ways as I can, before I even start to learn the text. But it will not come out, when I do the piece, "like them." And I would not want it to. That was THEIR work... now I must begin my own.

Jerry's group, The Gospel Messengers, must know this, too, for you hear the truth in their singing, not an imitation of some earlier recorded truth. And as knowlegable as Jerry is about many of the details, ultimately these details do not define the event of singing or hearing gospel music. If you look for them to do that, you will miss the boat.

In our case, what seems to happen, no matter how we first heard a song and learned it, is that the spirit of truth brings it into a rendition that is true for us, that day, with that group of people. It's different every time we do it... what we do is just soak up ALL the ways these songs have been done, often listening to multiple versions from multiple styles and eras. And then we let them happen however they happen in worship, with just a brief rehearsal.

The source being what it is, and the object being what it is, make the interpreter less important then the event of sharing them with one another. I think the stylistic details are good to look at, because we can then apply them to songs we may know in one style, and put them in another style. (For example, I have a slow, wailing, spirituals-sounding version of "I went down to the river to pray" that I have never heard done that way, and that would not bring Alison Krauss to mind at all, tho it is her version that made me fall in love with the piece first.) And the words to describe the details come in handy when you rehearse a group to do them.

But before that can happen authentically, you have to have soaked up enough of others' good work, and run it through your own internal stylerizer, for it to come out sounding less than pretentious.... you have to relax and let the song be the song, and let the techniques go compeletly, or you are not letting them be part of the spirit they are meant to touch.

Many of you know and experience what I am talking about. I guess I am saying, if you do not experience it that way, I would say you aren't ready to perform these yet... that you WILL be able to do them that way, if you let the songs do thjeir work, and that it is worth the wait for the experience you will have and share with others.


Wish I had time to say more.... we have learned a lot from leading weekly worship with this material. But this week I am making a mixed-styles Advent songbook, and I gotta have it ready by Saturday night! *G* I just finished the people's wordbook, but I have not even started the players' arrangements!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:33 PM

It is as true in gospel as it is in folk music, Susan.. as you point out, you have to make the song your own. I most enjoy the songs that we do with the Messengers that we don't have a recording to follow. The songs that I've written fall into that realm, as do songs that we have heard, and have the words to, but don't have a particular recording. We want to honor the syle of black gospel, but not by imitation. For Joe, Frankie and Derrick, they don't have to imitate being black. And I never have tried to "sound" southern Appalachian, black, Australian, or like any other musician. I didn't learn to play instruments by trying to copy what I heard on records, either. It's a matter of assimilating the music and making it your own. But, that's not really what this thread is about. Wilco requested that I share the observations I've made in a particular workshop, where we talk (and then sing) about the difference in style between the two types of gospel. I'm fortunate that I have my friends The Beans to share the workshop with us, as they have a real good feel for southern white gospel and also do Sacred Harp singing. And then at some point, we all sing together, blending our styles and background, and just singing gospel music. Great fun.

Most importantly for us, we sing to carry the message forth. A message and a faith that we've committed our lives to. There is nothing faintly scholarly about our approach. Our name says it all.
We are messengers. And, we never sing what we don't believe.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:47 PM

Right, Jerry; my point as it relates to the topic is that the stylistic details between and across the styles do not make the song... the act of singing it does... and that although there are certain differences, in the end it is not these differences that define the experience.

Something I have enjoyed very much is listening to as much black gospel as possible, and then running a mainstream hymn or southern gospel or bluegrass gospel piece through my head, through whatever my mind has absorbed... and hearing the song come out influenced very strongly by the black gospel styles, fresh and new. It's a way of being playful that frees up all sort of possibilities.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wilco
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:59 PM

Jerry: What a great thread.
    I can't read any music, so I have to "hear" everything, and play it by ear. So, I have to hear a song actually sung to appreciate it.
    On slow gospel songs (Angel Band, I Am a Pilgrim, or A Beautiful Life) I have always repeated the lead. Growing up in a Cathloic Church, I don't know how I learned to do this.
      I especially enjoy doing is "A beautiful Life," which has aa alternating base lead.
    Where will you do your workshop again?

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 02:07 PM

In Jerry's post above about improvisation, where he talks about stock phrases dropped into various songs, these come from the "floating" verses found in negro spirituals. As an antiphon, a verse, or a response, these were the items used to flesh out a song for singing in the fields at work, to keep a rhythm going and pass the time in an uplifting way... they were frequently made up of Bible images, whether they had anything to do with the theme of the song as first tossed out by the song leader or not. (This need for rhythm, by which to do repetitive, exhausting work as painlessly and efficiently as possible, is not unlike the way sea chanteys came to be. You can still hear this in later black gospel where even a long, improvised testifyin' carries a strong relationship to the beat.)

Other spirituals were done not at work, but as a "shout" where the singers would march together in the grip of the spirit, chant/singing in time to the movement, often very repetitively and often with floating verses contributed as leadership of the shout moved around among participants.

Sometimes the floaters would present a contrasting theme to the main theme which would occur in a refrain that would open as well as punctuate the piece, and sometimes they would be a couplet sung back to the leader as the leader took the song through a story or a topic, in the call/response pattern. You hear these in black gospel, too, throughout all its many styles over the decades, as well as in current black gospel sung in church worship.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 02:33 PM

Excellent observations, Susan! Maybe we can explore the differences between spiritual, gospel songs and hymns...


Wilco: I probably won't be doing this workshop again until next year at NOMAD, if they ask me back. But then, you never know. I did it in Boonville, Mo when I had my group out there for a festival. This thread has been wonderful for me, because I've had to verbalize what I hear in my head. And, others are adding their observations, which is what I hoped for. This thread, despite your title, isn't really about "my" workshop... that's just a starting point to share ideas and experiences in doing white and black gospel.

As for hearing the songs, that will be rectified shortly. I have a package in front of me with two CDs of black gospel... We got 6" of snow today, so I've been out shoveling and haven't made it to the post office... hope to get there later this afternoon.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 02:55 PM

Just to let you folks know that there are some normally 'long-winded' mudcatters enjoyin' this while keepin' quiet.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 03:13 PM

Hi, Rick: A long-winded Catter is in the title of this thread...

C'mon in..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 04:10 PM

You can hear (download) quite a lot of the music Jerry is writing about, online, and in some cases compare versions, at DOVESONG's MP3 library. There are a few articles, too.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 04:21 PM

Maybe we can explore the differences between spiritual, gospel songs and hymns...

A never-ending discussion with a number of old threads, already, which is where it would make the most sense to add more information, I think. Let's let this discussion run a bit and then turn to those questions. OK?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 05:55 PM

Yeah... there are good threads on those topics, already

CLAPPING

Any gospel song with a strong beat is likely to get people clapping in rhythm, whether it's white or black gospel. The real difference is that often in black gospel, people clap between beats, too. I hear tell that's called polyrhythmic clapping, and is an old African form of keeping rhythm. It can be very complex. When I sing in the Men's Chorus, my friend Frankie usually claps between beats... I'll have to ask him about that... it's a very old form of keeping rhythm and I notice he's usually the only one in the whole chorus who does it. I'm especially aware of it, because we always stand next to each other when we're singing. On songs that are in three quartet time, people clap on the second and third beats, which I haven't heard in white gospel. Toss in moving back and forth in rhythm and it's a wonder I can even sing..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:38 PM

SINGING SOLO

One thing that was very unfamiliar to me when I first started to go to black churches is when someone gets up to sing a solo. They don't step over to the organist or pianist and tell them the key they want to sing in... they just start singing. Then, it's up to the accompanist to figure out what key they're in, and start backing them.
Most organists are really good at doing this... they know hundreds and hundreds of songs, and the chord progressions are usually fairly simple, if it's one they haven't heard.

But, that's just part of the challenge. Solo singers in black churches keep their own internal rhythm, slowing lines down and holding a particular note as long as they feel it. That means that the accompanist (including singers who are backing up the soloist sometimes) really has to follow the leader, slowing down or skipping a beat at the soloist's desire. That's why that black gospel quartet could step in behind you, Khandu, and immediately slip into feeling with you. They do it every Sunday..

I've also noticed that people who are used to singing solo, and having the accompanist find their key, often will sing in a different key than the accompanist, if the accompanist gives them a lead in.
Very strange. The soloist normally doesn't seem to be bothered that they are singing in a different key. Either the accompanist changes keys, or the soloist will sing the whole song in a different key and not blink an eye. Much of this happens because so much singing in black churches is done without sheet music.

In the workshop I do, I'll often ask Frankie to sing He Looked Beyond My Faults And Saw My Needs. He is very inconsistent on coming in on the beat from one verse to the next, or from the verse to the chorus, and we just have to wait to see where he's going. I just vamp on guitar until I see him getting ready to go into the next verse. And, he never does it the same way twice. On top of that, Frankie is always deeply moved by the song, so he may just have to stop and compose himself, often with tears streaming down his face. Sometimes, Joe, Derrick or I start to break down and have to look away, or even walk away. Once, when Frankie finished the song, and everyone was overwhelmed with emotion, the Pastor came up and threw his arms around him, and asked us to do it again... right then. And we did. In gospel music, it's the feeling and the message that overrule any musical structures.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:34 PM

Well Friends, I think this brings this thread to an end. I've really focused on those differences that can be illustrated in a one hour workshop, specifically with my group and my friends The Beans. If I was in a workshop with a different group, like our friends on the West Coast, The Reedy Buzzards, the workshop would change to include early country gospel by the Brother groups (like the Stanley Brothers and Louvin Brothers) and the Blue Sky Boys. If we ever have the pleasure of doing a workshop with Wilco 48, or Richie and the Bluegrass Messengers, we'd explore other aspects of white gospel. There is much left to talk about... gospel and the blues, including people like the Staples Singers and Pops Staples, Blind Willie Johnson, Reverend Gary Davis, Thomas A. Dorsey and all the rest. There is a very strong link between black gospel and the blues. I'm not sure that I'm the one to explore it, though.

And then, there's the gospel of the Georgia Sea Islands, the black street singers (I have a wonderful CD of two blind street singers, Clay and Scott, recorded in Philadelphia) both black and white Sacred Harp singers, Southern White gospel (which I don't enjoy, so I'd be a poor choice to talk about that branch of gospel)and many more styles that you could add. I am not an expert on anything, and definitely not a scholar. I love to sing the music, and feel it in my soul. I'll leave the scholarly work to others... there are several scholars on Mudcat.

If anyone wants to carry on this discussion, they can always PM me, or e-mail me at [e-mail]. I am always trying to grow, musically and spiritually. Many Catters have written and are writing gospel. I just finished another song tonight, and expect that more will come. Whatever inspiration we can give to each other is worth continuing a discussion. Khandu is a fine writer, and nutty has written a fine gospel song. 53 says he's written several gospel songs if he can only find the tape, and I'm sure there are many others.

This thread has been great fun... thanks for starting it Wilco. You ain't heard the last of me yet.

Brother Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Richie
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 12:49 AM

Jerry-

I dug up the lyrics to PUT YOUR HAND IN MINE that we transcribed from a church performance in a small African-American church in rural NC.
I also strated a separate thread to get ino on it.

Lyr. Add: PUT YOUR HAND IN MINE: Chords: G G Em Em Em Em D G
Solo (Choir only)

G                               Em
Put your hand in mine, put your hand in mine,
                                        D       G
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.


Put your hand in mine, put your hand in mine,
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

Goin' down Jordan on a wheel of time.
(I need you Jesus) to put your (hand in mine).

Death is gonna skae this old frame of mine.
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

Put your hand in mine, (put your) hand in mine,
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

One of these old morinings and it won't be long,
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

You're gonna look for me, and I'll be gone,
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

Put your hand in mine, put your hand in mine,
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

(Put your hand in mine), put your hand in mine,
Singing, I need you Jesus, (Ineed you to) put your hand in mine.

Two, two white horses running side by side,
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

They're gonna take me over, take me over to the other side,
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

Put your hand in mine, put your hand in mine,
Singing, I need you Jesus, to put your hand in mine.

Put your hand in mine, put your hand in mine,
Singing, (I need you Jesus),
Singing, (I need you Jesus),
I'm singing, (I need you Jesus),
I can't make it by myself (I need you Jesus),
Every day of my life, I need you Jesus(I need you Jesus),
To put your hand in mine.

Note: Last line sung by all. Called an "old" song, by one of the leaders in the church.

Any info about origin?

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 08:39 AM

Still is unfamiliar to me, Ritchie, but I'll ask the guys if they know it. The song, as you've written it out is a real good example of what we've been talking about in black gospel... the "improvisation" against backing vocals, especially. You could stick, "The Jordan river's chilly and cold"/response/"It chills the body, but not the soul," and countless other couplets in the song and keep it going a lonnnnnng time..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: bbc
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 01:00 PM

This has been very informative, Jerry. Thank you!

bbc

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wilco
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 01:23 PM

Thanks Jerry. I've actually been taking notes! Could you address WYSIWYG's post about "floating verses," an give some examples? How do you maintain rhythm with them?

Thanks!!!!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 03:34 PM

wilco, if you will look at the African American Spirituals Permathread, you will find LINKS to a HUGE number of posted spirituials. Browse a few of those and you will start to see a lot of repeated verses.... any and all of them (and any new ones someone might think up now) can be borrowed into gospel pieces whereever the rhythm fits (or can be made to fit)... and it happens in blues tunes, too, with images and phrsases migrating across a number of pieces.

One that is often found in gospel, tho, is this one:

I went down to the valley to pray
And my soul got so happy I stayed there all day.

In a testifying style, it might be all jammed together with spontaneous elaboration, taking the same time to sing/say but subdividing the rhythm to make room for all of this:

Yes I went down, Lord, to the valley, for a little while to pray
And my soul got so happy you know I stayed there all day.

To understand black gospel, IMO you really have to start with the spirituals. That's where it mostly flowed out of, with of course African rhythms, intervals, and manners of presentation. One of the real big differences though, between the spirituals and the kind of black gospel we're talking about here, is that although the spirituals were sung by groups, there was not actually harmony as we understand it... but a collection of individuals, each singing or embroidering upon the tune as they felt it.... Each one sang/called out whatever made sense to them to sing. It was neither unison nor harmony, but a communal effort to bring a song about. And lots of spontaneous exclamations which of course ARE part of what passed along into black gospel.

Have fun in that permathread.... lots of links to other good material there, too.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:41 PM

Hi, Wilco:

O.k., some examples in addition to the one that WYSIWYG gave:

"My hand got stuck on the gospel plow
I won't take nothing for my journey now"

"The Jordan River is chilly and cold
It chills the body but not the soul"

And you can make up your own, Wilco. When I sing the lead on I'm Just Waiting on Jesus, while the guys are repeating "I'm going to wait on him," I do:

"You can talk about me
Just as much as you please (another common phrase)
I'm going to wait on the Lord
Down on knees"

Or you can take familiar biblical Scripture:

"Those who wait ..... I'm going to wait
On the Lord............I'm going to wait
Their strength.........I'm going to wait
Will be renewed........I'm going to wait
They shall mount up....I'm going to wait
On wings like eagles...I'm going to wait
They shall run.........I'm going to wait
And never get weary....I'm going to wait

And then I added:

You can move mountains.I'm going to wait
Or part the sea........I'm going to wait
Just wait on the man...I'm going to wait
From Gallilee...........I'm going to wait

There's a CD in the mail of us doing this, so you can sing along and feel the rhtyhm.

When I was first asked to sing a lead and improvise, I was very insecure, so I memorized the "improvisations." After a copuple of years of doing this, when the Spirit moves me, I can make up lines on the spot. Sometimes.

It's really a great deal of fun, as you'll hear..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 08:15 PM

One of these days about 12 o'clock,
This ole world's gonna reel and rock.
Pharoah's army got drownded,
O! Mary! Don't you weep.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 10:28 PM

Oh,one more thing...

In black gospel, I've always appreciated how the singer can personalize an event that took place two thousand years ago and put it in terms that we can understand today. A case in point:

We're working on a Christmas program these days, and we're learning No Room At The Inn, more or less following a recording of the song by Mahalia Jackson. We're taking it from a solo with piano accompaniment to a quartet with electric guitar, and adding some responses, but basically it's still the same song.

When you think of all the elements that go into the nativity story, there are the shepherds and their sheep, the manger, the cattle lowing, the star of Bethlehem, the angels singing on high, even (incorrectly) the three wisemen and gifts of frankincense and Myrrh. I don't know about you, but these are not part of my everyday life. No Room At The Inn doesn't have any of these familiar images. It tells the story from the perspective of Joseph and Mary and the anxiety they felt by being turned away, everywhere they went. Blacks know about that, better than most folks, but we've all experienced being turned away. We know how that feels. So, the first two verses of the story are about Mary and Joseph:

"According to the word, there was a virgin birth
The father of Jesus was wandering around that night
He was trying to find a place for the Savior to be born
But there was no room, no room at the inn

I know that Mother was worried, and she began to moan
She prayed to be delivered of her only son
She was very sad, I know, 'cause she had no place to go
For there was no room, no room at the inn

You can really empathize with Joseph and Mary in those verses.

And who will witness for this grand night? The shepherds? the angels singing on high? the Three Wisemen? (maybe even the little stop-action drummer boy.) No, it was the plain folks, working in the inn, seen through the eyes of a race who often made a living in the most modest jobs:

"The bell boy and the Porter, the waitress and the cook
Will be witness up in Heaven, to all the things that it took
She was turned away, and had no place to stay
For there was no room, no room at the inn"

Now I kinda doubt that they had bell boys and porters back in those days. If they did, they never made it into the King James version.
But, it is the folks in the lowly positions that were not respected, who were called on to witness up in Heaven.

And the chorus is:

"There was no room, no room at the inn
There was no room, no room at the inn
When the time had fully come, for the Savior to be born
There was no room, no room at the inn"

A song that tells the story in a way that we can relate to it. I've been a night watchmen, a waiter and a cook, so I can feel a little pleasure in imagining that it was the folks in the back room that did the testifying...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wilco
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:53 AM

Jerry is dead-on about the appeal of this music. It talks to people at the level where they really live. I have often heard it said that "The ground is level at the foot of the Cross." Almost every song that I enjoy speaks to the Beatitudes.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

Just when you think a thread is dead..

Wednesday, my group did a program for high school students on spirituals and black gospel. Most of the students who came were in a black gospel Chorus at the school and at one point, I called three young men up to double harmonies with Frankie, Joe and Derrick on a song I was singing the lead on. Two of the young men weren't in the Gospel Chorus, so singing old quartet style was akin to speaking in tongues for them.

When the program was over, there was a question and answer period, and the first question asked of me was "Can a white choir sing black gospel." My first response was, "Well, I know someone who is white who can sing black gospel." We all laughed, but she said that wasn't what she was talking about. She wanted to know if a white CHOIR could sing black gospel. It was a really interesting question and in a way, very much the same question that could be posed in other ways... "Can a lundlubber" sing sea chanties? Can someone in England sing American cowboy songs(ask Lonnie Donegan.) Can a white boy sing the blues? I only had a couple of minutes to wing an answer, so I stuck to the difference between Choruses, Choirs and Quartets. Might even be worth a separate thread.

We were a quartet singing to a Chorus. In the black church that my wife and I go to, there are choirs and choruses. To my ears, they are very different. The choirs sing from arrangments written down and published as sheet music. The choruses learn the songs and harmonies by ear. To me, even though the Sanctuary Choir in our chruch is black, they sound more European to me than black American. In part, that's because many of them have trained voices, and enunciate with a precision that doesn't seem like it fits gospel. I imagine most people have had the experience of hearing a white choir attempt to sing black gospel. To my ears, it usually doesn't work... any more than it would work if I tried to sing an aria from Aida. All of the guys in my quartet and I are in a Men's Chorus. Beads of sweet pour down our brows when we have to sing from sheet music. We squint our eyes and cock our heads and do the best we can.

So, I turned it into a somewhat different question... can a choir sing black gospel. Sure, they can sing it... they can sing the words and get the melody right, and probably even approximate the rhythm. But can they really get down to the heart of it all? My guess is that a white chorus or a whie folk group would have a better shot at singing black gospel. Two groups immediately come to mind... Marley's Ghost, and Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver. They both do black gospel... in the case of Doyle Lawson, sometimes with the almost identical arrangement of a black gospel group... the Soul Stirrers in particular. To me, they "get it."

Any thoughts on this?

Still Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

Oh, my good friend, you are at the heart of an issue that P-Vine and I have tried unsucessfully to bridge during our entire relationship.

The P-Vine is classicly trained and syng in church choirs all her life. She is so good that she is asked to do many of the solos in a choir made up of a number of trained vocalist mixed with others who are less trained but read.

Now the ol' Bobert, on the other hand, can't even tell you what chord he's playin' 'cause I ain't got a clue.

Now, don't get me wrong. There's no judgements here and we both enjoy and respect what the other is doing but like I told her about doing music with me: "When you come out of the Penthouse and get on the elevator punch 'O' for 'outhouse'!" Yeah, sure, she tries. Lord know she does. But there's something about all that training that sets up that "negative transference" we learned about in Psyc. 201 that makes that bridge one heck of a long one.

I don't know if answered any more questions that I've created here, Jerry, but it's an interesting topic.

Yir ol' hillbilly buddy,

Bobert