Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 10:26 PM

Working On A Bulding by the Swan Silvertones is one of the greatest gospel recordings of all time. I never tire of the fluidity of the singing and how the intensity continues to build. The bass singer is a marvel.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 06:49 PM

I don't if anyone on here is into file sharing but does anyone have Gospel at Newport 1959/63-66 [LIVE]?

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM

Two more to add.

Working on a Building - Swan Silvertones

Patty Loveless - Del McCoury - Working On A Building (Live)

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:07 PM

I apologize to you for my mistake. That last video was of singers and dancers in Kampala, Uganda {East Central Africa}.

Kampala is the capital city of Uganda.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:33 PM

I just came across this YouTube video that shows traditional African singers doing double time hand clapping:

Traditional Kinyarwanda Song Ndare and Dance - Sandra K 2002 [Rwanda, East Central Africa]

I thought it might be of interest to this thread's readers.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:35 PM

Some instrumental Gospel...

" I Saw The Light-I"ll Fly Away Bluegrass Gospel

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

Look at current Blues music programming. Half the artists are white. And they don't sound white, as they did not so long ago
-Susan

If I understand the premise of this discussion, I believe that it was that there were differences in the styles, meaning the sound and the performance, of Black American gospel and the styles of White American gospel.

I happen to believe that there were and still are differences in the sounds [styles] and performance behavior of performers and listeners of White American gospel and Black American gospel. It's possible that this is less true than it previously was, but I have no way of accessing that.

But this doesn'tmean that Black folks and White folks didn't and don't borrow from each other. It also doesn't mean that Black people don't appreciate, listen to, sing, and play the gospel styles that are categorized as "White Gospel" styles. And vice versa.

And it absolutely doesn't mean that one style of gospel is better than another.

I don't think anyone on this thread wrote or implied that. I know that I certainly didn't.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:43 AM

I'm bothered. The following is stream of consciousness-- neither in response to any post nor a comment on anyone. I won't be posting in this thread again in the near future-- I'll be away leading Gospel music and then out of town. I'm sorry it will make some folks defensive but... .)

~S~

Here we are about to inaugurate Barack Obama, and our threads continue to proclaim a divide we all want to end.

"The Gospel in B&W." Give me a BREAK. I sing that stuff every week (have done so for over 10 years), week in and week out, with songs and influences drawn from all over the map. Many of our sources crossed that "line" generations ago, from both "sides." And we do too. It can't just be us-- this is not about "aren't we special" or "we're SO unique." Our styles may be rare in church circles, but not because of the B/W thing. We are not rare in music circles.

Marty Stuart said it well in a mainstream-gospel, big-market setting recently, talking to Bill Gaither about the place of Bluegrass in Gospel. He referenced something I've said for years-- that the divides in Gospel styles are artificial-- not reflective of individual artists' experiences. He especially menttioned Mavis Staples saying she listenEd to Country music on the road. And of course many "white" artists, of all genres, including gospel, have talked about listening to the Blues.

Look at current Blues music programming. Half the artists are white. And they don't sound white, as they did not so long ago. These are white men who CAN play basketball, the dozens, and the blues. They are sometimes listed now as primary influences on up and coming BLACK blues players! How wacky is THAT.


IMO our B&W Gospel threads should focus on appreciating the PAST legacies of these formerly-divided genres within the great Gospel tradition. THE MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL ITSELF INCLUDES SOCIAL JUSTICE. Why do we persist in assuming that the music based on it (and marketed to people who ascribe to that message) could maintain the divisions of the societies in which it flourishes?!?!?


I celebrate the cultural contributions that arose even from divided hearts. Sometimes a great gift comes from the most-broken giver. But I can't divide the contributions anymore, and I'd hope most of Mudcat isn't falling for the illusion that they are divided.

Out here in the real world of gospel music-- the church-- that illusion is the work of The Enemy.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:06 PM

Link didn't work above so I reposted it...


Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child-Paul Robeson Negro Spirituals-Classical

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: meself
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 02:14 AM

Incidentally - and as you may know - it was the Golden Gate Quartet that gave The Four Lads their 'first big break', by recommending them to their (GGQ's) agent.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 04:05 PM

The Four Lads recorded Mockingbird on the OKeh label very early in their career. Their arrangement was almost identical to the Golden Gate Quartet. I actually prefer the Four Lads version...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

A Southern Gospel-Country take on two Negro Spirituals

Dolly Parton - Swing Low Sweet Chariot

Jordanaires - Swing Down Sweet Chariot.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

Good one..

"AThe Golden Gate Quartet - Mockingbird Jubilee style

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Some examples of the different types of sounds in both White and Black Gospel music. Feel free to post some more examples! I'll leave out Christian Rock and Christian Rap for now.

WHITE GOSPEL MUSIC EXAMPLES

"Awake, My Soul: The Story of the Sacred Harp" Movie Trailer Sacred Harp


"The Blackwood Brothers "Dear Jesus abide with me" Southern Gospel-Barbershop Harmony style


"Dolly Parton "What a friend we have in Jesus" live" Country-Gospel

"The Cumberland Trio- Bluegrass Gospel Medley" Bluegrass-Gospel

DISTINGUISHING TRAITS OF WHITE GOSPEL MUSIC IN IT"S VARIOUS FORMS

* "clean" vocals or tonal sounds
* high lonesome sound in country & bluegrass gospel
* isn't very rhythmic
* Obvious Country and Bluegrass instrumental traits/influences
* not alot of improvisation

(If anyone has anymore distinguishing traits either vocally or instrumentally to add, feel free to post them)

NEGRO SPIRTUALS & BLACK GOSPEL MUSIC EXAMPLES

"Blind Willie Johnson * Let Your Light Shine On Me * Old style Blues-Gospel

The Golden Gate Quartet: Swing Down Chariot Jubilee-Barbershop style

The Golden Gate Quartet in a Danny Kay's film Jubilee-Barbershop style

"Dig A Little Deeper..." By The Fairfield Four Jubilee-Barbershop style

"Dixie Hummingbirds - I've Got So Much To Shout About Jubilee-Barbershop Hard style

"Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho - Mahalia Jackson Classic Urban Gospel

"Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child-Paul Robeson Negro Spirituals-Classical

EXTRAS

Black Gospel music collage Good examples of Urban Gospel

Black Gospel Music ( Allen Toussaint ) Good example of the Boogie Woogie tinged style of piano playing in Black Gospel music


Black Gospel Music ( Allen Toussaint ) Good example of the Boogie Woogie tinged style of piano playing in Black Gospel music

Gospel Organ: What is the COGIC style? Eddie Howard Explains Good example of a Hammond Organ style of playing in Black Gospel music

James Cleveland/Charles Nicks/Lawrence Roberts/Herbert Picka More Hammond Organ style

DISTINGUISHING TRAITS OF BLACK GOSPEL MUSIC IN IT"S VARIOUS FORMS

* more "dirty" vocal tones, moans and shouts
* stressing of the offbeats
* hand clapping
* Blues-Boogie Woogie-Jazz influences in Urban Gospel
* heavy use of call & response-improvisation
* heavy use of melissma and falsetto

(If anyone has anymore distinguishing traits either vocally or instrumentally to add, feel free to post them)

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 01:09 AM

Returning to an example of off-beat clapping, see this worship service that includes a gospel song sung by an African American singing preacher*

"I'm On The Battlefield"- Late Rev. Aric Flemming


*"singing preacher"-one who can sing as well as preach

[Note 1:15 and longer. The woman in the pink dress is doing on-beat clapping and the woman in the black dress is doing off-beat clapping]

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:26 PM

For some reason, at the end of hyperlinked video of the Howard university video choir singing "Didn't My Lord Deliver Daniel", other videos of African American spiritual follow. I don't know how that happened.

One video is a choir made up of White singers:

Auburn University Concert Choir - Didn't My Lord Deliver Dan

Unlike the Nashville video, it didn't seem to me that the Auburn University choir was trying to sing this song in "a Black voice".
I didn't like their arrangement, but that's just me. It's a matter of taste, which to a large extent is developed and reinforced by cultural conditioning.

Another video that somehow followed the Auburn University video through that Howard University link, is Wilmington Chester Mass Choir- Ride On King Jesus

I like this video the best of all those whose links I shared in these posts {though the sound clip used by the Alvin Ailey dancers is a tie}. Imo, the Wilmington Chester Mass Choir is a good example of African American singing spirituals {although I personally didn't like the video after 4:44 minutes.

As to any other videos that follow this one, {how??} I'll just let them speak for themselves.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:41 PM

Because I believe it is relevant to this discussion, here is an excerpt of the post that I just added to this thread:Lyr Add: Daniel in the Lions' Den (1927 Recording

..."There's [sic] a number of YouTube videos about the song "Didn't My Lord Deliver Daniel?" Here are links to two of these videos, both of which are performed with concert arrangements.

In the first video, the song is performed by Howard Gospel Choir - "Didn't my Lord Deliver Daniel"

"The Howard Gospel Choir of Howard University sings the Negro Spiritual "Didn't my Lord Deliver Daniel" in Martin, Slovakia [Europe] as a part of our Tour of Slovakia in December 2007".


In the second video, the song us performed by a majority White choir*
Didn't My Lord Deliver Daniel - Nashville 2008

"Nashville, USA 2008"


*The racial references [sic]continues the discussion in this thread.

A portion of the Nashville choir's performance of this African American spiritual might also address the question raised by the original poster in this Mudcat thread,Minstrel Show Or Not?

"Is it inappropriate for groups made up of white people to publicly perform music written "in the voice" of African Americans? I'm talking about local choruses and church choirs"
-Ref

-snip-

That's one question which I will not address at this time.

Another question is how effective is the performance by the group who is not singing in "their own voices".

In my opinion, the attempt to sing a portion of this song in what the choir may have thought was a "Black voice" {as well as the choirs attempts to add movements {swaying to the beat and handclapping, and more} to their rendition of this African American spiritual was not at all effective, though there's no question that they sung very well.

**

As an extra bonus, here's a link to Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater: Revelations (part 2 of 5)

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Janie
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:52 AM

Thanks Azizi. I hadn't realized the link didn't take.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:07 AM

Janie, here's the hyperlink for "Every Time I Feel The Spirit", by G.S. Warren which you posted to this thread:


http://books.google.com/books?id=K7Ormt3dzVYC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Oh,+Didn't+it+Rain&source=web&ots=DsxnZ_UwHn&sig=QJkr3AhdwD

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:04 AM

Readers of this thread may also be interested in the comments on this Mudcat thread, particularly this post that I wrote:

Lyr Req: God Specializes (Have you any rivers}

In that post, I point out some ways in which the rendition of that song by Pastor E. Dewey Smith Jr. and the choir & congregation {in two YouTube videos whose hyperlinks are provided} could be considered one "textbook" example of African American gospel singing and choir/congregation "behavior".

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 10:21 PM

Seek, and ye shall find.

Apparently it was written by Roberta Martin, but she drew from http://ingeb.org/spiritua/odidntit.html.

The notes that follow Roberta Martin's http://books.google.com/books?id=K7Ormt3dzVYC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Oh,+Didn't+it+Rain&source=web&ots=DsxnZ_UwHn&sig=QJkr3AhdwDT_AarjH8XugA2bY-E&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA111,M1 (from the book, "Every Time I Feel The Spirit", by G.S. Warren are somewhat more specifically germaine to this thread, as she refers to the process of spirituals being changed and adapted to become gospel hymns.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 10:05 PM

Dadgum, that's a lot of typos and mispellings, even for me! Sorry I didn't proof it at all before I posted.

J

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 10:04 PM

TinDor,

That youtube video of sister Rosetta Tharpe, led me the video of her performing "Didn't It Rain,", which simply blew me out of the water. (Visually wonderful, also - a very proper looking, stout, late middle-aged woman in a Jackie Kennedyesque fur coat, absolutely rocking on that guitar!)

Ihope this isn't too much thread drift...if it is...slap my hand and tell me start another thread...

I ended up listening to several artists sing "Didn't It Rain", then did a search both hear and on the web. I found something similar in lyrics, burt not so close that I was sure it was the same song (and the midi wasn't very helpful regarding the melody), that said it was a traditional "negro" spiritual. The Mahalia Jackson lyrics website attributes it to Roberta Martin. Roberta Martin may have been the first to record it, but I could not determine is the song she (and subsequently everyone) recorded is based on the traditional O, Didn't It Rain , or is a more modern song.

Obviously, I fell in love with it, and would like to know more.

Janie

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM

Sister Rosetta Tharpe - Up Above My Head

^^backbeat throughout the entire song. Also, check the guitar playing! Rosetta Thorpe like Dorsey, also had a Blues background and it shows in the guitar work in this clip.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:32 PM

Black Gospel music collage

^^ A collage of clips on Black Gospel music from the 60's. Clip/music from Aretha FRanklin, Ray Charles, Dixie HummingBirds, and the Staples Singers. Off beat handclapping (In the Staples Singers clip, they're doing a multilayered backbeat) all throughout the video for those wondering what it is. The Rock N Roll/popular music backbeat on the drum got there via Black Gospel music --> Rhythm and Blues

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:16 PM

Azizi and Jerry Rasmussen, the off-beat and polyrhythmic clapping thing yall are talking about is called a backbeat (1 2 3 4 ). That's one of the defining rhythmic qualities of Black Gospel music. This offbeat rhythmic quality in Black Gospel is described perfectly below by the famous White Southern Gospel group, The Jordanaires...

Starting @ 2:05

White Gospel 04


A short docu/history on Southern White Gospel if anyones interested


White Gospel 01

White Gospel 02

White Gospel 03

White Gospel 04 (same clip from above)

White Gospel 05

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM

Barry, one of the "challenges" with gospel music {or any other music for that matter} is that there can be more than one song that has the same title and the same song can be known by more than one title.

Here's the words to what I call "Building Not Made By Hand" and what may indeed be the correct title "Lord Keep Me Day By Day":

Verse 1:
Lord, keep my day by day,
in a pure and perfect way.
I want to live, I want to live on
in a building not made by hand.

Verse 2:
Lord, keep my body strong
so that I can do no wrong.
Lord, give me grace just to run this Christian race
to a building not made by hand.

Verse 3:
I'm just a stranger here,
traveling through this barren land.
Lord, I know there's a building somewhere,
a building not made by hand.

http://www.lyricstime.com/the-caravans-lord-keep-me-day-by-day-lyrics.html

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

Nope, the "Southern Journey" collection didn't come thru & I lost my 1st post somewhere, too

Try this
. The 16 volume Lomax "Southern Journey" collection
Then scroll down on the left to get all 16 volumes.

Don't you elves touch this one, please.

Barry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

Sorry, let's try that again

The whole Lomax collection, 66 volumes, then scroll down on the left side, at the bottom there's a link to all 16 volumes.

Again pay interest to volumes # 4, 6, 8, 11, 12 & 13

I hope I have it right this time

Barry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:45 PM

Here's an example of a tamborine playing a different beat than the handclapping done by the choir.

Alcorn Gospel Choir "Lord Help me to Hold Out"

I'm not sure how I would categorize this singing. I think it's an old school gospel song done in a new school gospel way. About 3:30 the choir does some off-beat clapping.

Here's an example of one kind of "contemporary" {new school} Black gospel song:
kirk franklin melodies from heaven

I don't hear any off-beat clapping in the Kirk Franklin song, though off-beat clapping could be done for that song and for any other song.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

Hi Azizi, she's doing "Lord, Keep Me Day By Day" it's great but it's not "A Building Not Made By Hand". You wetted my thirst for "A Building Not Made By Hand" & now I can't find it.

Azizi, check out the Lomax collection, perticulary the Southern Journey collection

Here's the whole Lomax collection 66 volumes


. This is the 16 volume Southern Journey collection. For Gospel differences between White & Black, pay attention to volumes #4, 6, 8, 11, 12 & 13.

Barry











Barry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:36 PM

Sorry. Here's the hyperlink for "A Building Not Made By Hand" {Albertina Walker, soloist}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSu6UtVImrQ

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

Fwiw, it's not that easy finding examples of off-beat clapping in YouTube videos of African American choirs.

Here's one example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSu6UtVImrQ
THE QUEEN OF GOSPEL MUSIC: QUEEN ALBERTINA WALKER SINGS!

One noticable example of off-beat clapping is the woman behind another woman wearing white blouse at 2:50 and throughout.

Btw, that song is "A Building Not Made By Hand". I love that song!

Also, see this example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Fyj27Lpww&feature=related
Hezekiah Walker & LFCC - "The Lord Will Make A Way Somehow"

The woman almost directly behind the soloist is clapping on the off-beat at about 1:43 of this video and at various times throughout it.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: TinDor
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

It would be great if someone could post videos to support their descriptions of each type of the substyles of White Southern Gospel and Black Gospel.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 11:09 AM

I wonder if people who can keep things straight in their minds singing complicated rounds would find it easier to do off-beat and polyrhythmic clapping?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:33 PM

LOL. I'm Methodist...and we all know, "Methodists are just Baptists who can read."

I'll have to admit, I have to think about it to do the elbows. But I once played the tambourine at a homeless mission. I can do the shake on the beat, and the hit my knee (sitting down...you thought something else didn't you) on the off beat.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:05 PM

Mary! I got the elbows! I am doing a musical that opens tomorrow night called Pump Boys and Dinettes. One of the songs calls for backbeat clapping. It is amazing how easy it is for some and terribly difficult for others. The one who has the most difficult time? Pianist, a minister of music/choir director at the Methodist church.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

Barbara, I think you understand what Susan said...but just again to clarify...in terms of counting:

Clapping on the "off beat" in 4/4 time: clap on 2 and 4
Clapping on the "off beat: in 2/4 time: clap on the "and" of 1 and on the "and" of 2 (actually on 2 and 4 if your 2/4 is counted in 4/4) Watch a tambourine player.

To really get it right (are you listening jimmyt) you need to bring your elbows back close to your body on the beat! :-) not like the "on beat clappers" who throw the hands wide apart when they try to do off-beat clapping.

In my observations, about the only tune that demands "on beat" clapping is "When the Saints Go Marching In." All others can use the "off beat" clapping.

********thread drift*********

The Beatles used a strong 1-2-3-4...all beats strong. (I Want To Hold Your Hand)

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:58 AM

One more comment... and thanks, Dani: (Isn't it fun when you are the subject of a joke and you enjoy it more than anyone else?)

At out church, we've started a new tradition of a very energetic praise song during the collection. I don't know whether the source is African, but now that I am thinking about it, I'll ask. It just sounds very much like the church music we heard in Ghana. The song is simple and repetitive and very energetic, and at one point the lead sings "Clap your hands with me" and then everyone keeps repeating the line, clapping their hands on every beat.

At our next workshop, maybe I'll try to get everyone to clap with a different rhythm. Me, a guy who has trouble chewing gum while he's walking. That sounds REALLLLL intersting to me.. take a simple black gospel song and get one group to clap on the beat, then add another group clappin off beat, and keep adding layers... another group clapping on all four beats and another clapping twice on the first and third beat, and another clapping twice and the second and fourth beat.

Alright, let's try it right now...

Hears the song...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Dani
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:49 AM

I LOVE that story, Jerry! How wonderful for you, and that you share that story, so it won't take others so long to know themselves!

The trick here is to find the place where you belong: and hope they'll have you! I'm still working on it.

Dani

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:37 AM

Just a humorous anecdote about rhythm. Up until the first time I heard the Men's Chorus at the black Baptist church where I am now a member, I never had any interest in joining a choir. Choirs in Wisconsin when I was a kid were mostly buxom ladies with vibrato in overdrive. Even the hymns I liked were served up lukewarm. The first time I heard the Men's Chorus, was a real revelation for me. Here were people who put everything they had into the song.. not just their voice, but their bodies and spirits. This is not to suggest that there aren't other forms of gospel and religion singing that don't do this... bluegrass can also bring that same energy and commitment, and I am sure there is religious singing from other faiths and cultures that do the same thing. But, for me, it was experience unlike any I'd ever had.

When I was asked to join the Men's Chorus, I was very excited about it. At the first practice, we were learning a new song and the Chorus Director, Dan Williams was teaching each harmony by ear. When it came time for the baritones to learn their part, we were all standing (as Dan doesn't let you sit down and sing.) I don't remember the song, but it had a strong beat, and I was really moving to it. When the baritones were done, Dan moved on to the tenors, and we remained standing. By the, I was really moving with the beat, and the man next to me said, "You don't have to keep moving, Jerry, we're not singing anymore.." And I answered, "Hey, I've waited 60 years to be able to move to music in church and nobody's stopping me now."

I told this story to an assembly of girls from 1st through fifth grade in a private school when the Messengers were doing a program about black gospel, and one of the youngest girls raised her hand very excitedly after I made the comment about waiting 60 years to be able to move. She asked.."Why did it take you so long?" and the place went into an uproar of laughter. Me more than anyone. It was a good question. Why is it that moving when you sing is so discouraged in many churches? I suppose because the music doesn't have a strong beat to it, to begin with.

Different strokes for different folks.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Dani
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:18 AM

The concept of on- and off-beat clapping is fascinating, and since realizing the difference, I've been observing everywhere I can. I definitely believe that people 'with rhythm', black or white, instinctively (can't help it) liven up the percussion by clapping, tapping, or nodding on the offbeat, and that people 'without' stick with the beat. 'With' and 'without' aren't completely true anymore than 'black' and 'white' are, but there are definitely two camps. Need 'em both for a good song, right?

But it makes very interesting studying.

My best case study recently was on Martin Luther King's Birthday, at a big church filled with people from many different churches, most black but not all.

I'm white, and have always loved percussion of all kinds. Though I am (as my friend says) a christian with "small c", I very much enjoy worshipping in the black churches in my neighborhood. The spirit and energy and joy and music is what attracts me (and the fact that they're not afraid to mention 'sin'. For years I attended a Unitarian church, which never actually moved me in anyway, so I visit wherever I feel welcome.

Interesting side note: I once hosted an inter-church meeting at the Unitarian church, which we conducted in the 'house' manner, in a circle, and very subdued and intellectual. Afterwards, a friend (80ish) from the loudest, singingest, praisingest black Baptist church said to me, "I LIKE it here: a man can think. I can't THINK with all that noise at my church!". I offered to trade with him. I don't want to think when I worship (or sing, for that matter). I want to FEEL!

Dani

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:08 AM

So it sounds like 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, where the off-beat is on the "and"? That's not at all unusual for an old rock 'n roller like myself who converted to bluegrass. I usually have the foot going on the beat and the hands going on the off-beat, sometimes with one clap, sometimes double as Jerry mentioned. Doesn't everyone do that?;) Thanks WYSIWYG and Jerry.

For those who weren't there, The Gospel Messengers and ShoreGrass and dwditty did a "Gospel in Black and Blue" workshop at NOMAD this year and it was so much fun. I'm enjoying this thread and also looking forward to on-the-job experience when ShoreGrass joins the Gospel Messengers as guests at their 8th anniversary concert on April 23 in Shelton, CT, USA!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:50 AM

It's called the backbeat in rock-n-roll.

Most of us here probably do it without thinking, "Am I on the beat on or the backbeat?" A familiar song with strong backbeat opportunities is "Will the Circle Be Unbroken?". The beat is on CIR in "circle," but the rhythm or shufflebow player (s) can give a good WHUMP on that pause between Cir- and -cle.) That's the backbeat.

In folkie terms, if a band plays with shufflebow, the fiddler can take either the accented beats (ONE two THREE four) or the backbeat (one TWO three FOUR) for the invisibly-dotted notes-- while the rhythm guitar takes the other.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:37 AM

Hi, Barbara:

I'm pretty much of a musical illiterate, so don't take my answer as flip. It's the best one I can give. Someone else can answer in terms that might more sense to you. If you want to know what off-beat clapping is, when people start clapping to a song, clap every beat that they don't. And, it can be more complex than that.. people may make two short claps in the space of a beat for more rhythmic diversity.

I know that there are others who come on here who are far more capable of explaining this to you... when Shore Grass joins the Gospel Messengers for our 8th Anniversary, and we do a song together, stand next to Frankie and clap along with him. He probably couldn't explain it to you either.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:09 AM

I'm trying to understand what exactly you mean by off-beat clapping. In a song that's in 4/4 time and the count is 1, 2, 3, 4, which ones of those would be the off-beat? Or is it somewhere between them?

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:17 PM

Hey, Azizi: For a white Danish guy I probably attend as many different black churches as most folks, because I am out singing with two Men's Choruses and my own quartet. We see the whole spectrum, from the church where all of us in the quartet are members, which is one of the more reserved black Baptist Churches to the Pentecostal churches where people get in the Spirit and run around the room and speak in tongues. Of course, I can only speak from my experience in a fairly limited geographic area... The sew-fisticated East Coast.
I've been to black churches in Illinois and Missouri too, but most of my experience is in Connecticut and New York State. At least around here, clapping off-beat is uncommon. When I hear it, it tends to be the older members of the church, like my friend Frankie who will be 80 in a couple of months. I'm not saying that there aren't teenagers that clap off beat, because I expect that there are. But, it's an older tradition that doesn't necessarily blend well with keyboards, drums and electric bass. 'Smatter of fact, in my biased opinion, the omnipresence of drums in black churches takes some of the rhythm-keeping out of the hands of the congregation, and I see fewer and fewer tambourines now.

Not that there is anything inherently "better" about the congregation driving the rhythm and getting more involved. I just like it better.

When my quartet plays, there are always keyboard players, drummers and bass guitarists wanting to play with us, and no matter how hard we try to graciously say that we like to keep it simple, I'm afraid that we at times must come off as a little uppity. A lot of people feel that music is automatically "improved" with a drummer. We don't.

Is there a Christian phrase that means the same as "old farts?"

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:40 PM

Earlier this evening, my daughter read my comments about off-beat clapping and wants me to correct what she considers to be a misconception that members or 'middle class' African American Baptist churches aren't doing off-beat clapping anymore..

My daughter wants 'Catters to know that she has attended far more church services lately than I have [true], and off-beat clapping is still being done by young and old at the churches she goes to.

So for the record..while there APPEARS to me to be less off-beat clapping done at Black churches [when I go to church], this practice may be much more common than I inferred in previous post.

****
BTW, I'm trying to get my daughter to join Mudcat, but she hasn't signed up yet and she doesn't lurk very often...

Well, everything happens in the fullness of time..


Azizi

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM

I hate ot stereotype but it seems to hold up more than it doesn't, Mary! My wife was raised seventh day adventist and although she is a fine musician in her own right, she couldn't clap backbeats to save her life! I have observed this witrh a lot of people and invaribly I see the trend there.   Now some Epicopalian or Presbyterian will comment that they can clap offbeat but I am talking trends here!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:04 PM

jimmyt, I'm so glad you said that! I've said it for years - and have received some strange looks!