BS: Its' official Bush is a moron

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 10:53 PM

DougR !!!

Time for your stimulants!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: DougR
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 09:02 PM

Bobert! Take your medication!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 12:39 AM

Gail Sheehey diagnosed Bush as dyslexic. He later went on record as saying "The woman who knew I had dyslexia -- I never interviewed her."    I pretty dyslexic rebuttal, actually.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 07:58 PM

Ahhh, GUEST, I'm gonna have to question the "compassionate conservative" for Junior is neiter. He has no compassion. None. There is only one person in the world that he cares about and that is "himself". And he is the most "liberal" politcian in modern times, in that he want to *change* so many things. Conservative, on the other hand, have respect for the status quo. Junior has no need for the status quo, None. Might of fact, he is on record of saying something along the lines that he'd be happy if he were just a dictator. Yeah, he laughed afterwards but folks don't say that lind of stuff if it hasn't crossed their minds...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 06:21 PM

From the Calgary Herald, Letters to the Editor, Dec. 8, 2002:

"I guess choosing the word "moron" to describe George Bush was probably a little undisciplined, but give Francoise Ducros a break; she was probably tired and searching for an efficient term.
It is quicker to say "moron" than it is to say, "war-mongering, anti-environment, big money-loving, isolationist, pompous, civil rights-steamrolling, dictatorial, imperialistic, anit-intellectual, silver-spoon-sucking, 'compassionate conservative,' cowboy simpleton."

Too bad the writer included cowboy, but otherwise he is right on.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 04:48 PM

...and why do americans enlist to their fancies...
with sit-coms and violent sexy romancies?
It's sad, but it's simple, said a teen pinching pimple;
Problems predicted presenting no chancies...

...so where is the hope that all people can cherish?
with happier joyousness rich but not garish...
In attics and basements, wings waiting replecements
Who've learned how to love through the bullisly bearish...

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 04:12 PM

Troll, I agree about the quality of print media vs. TV and radio, but I don't think that folks don't have time to read anything but the sports page, I think they don't make the time. If you look at the TV ratings, every night there's a whole lotta TVs turned on and brains turned off by people who insist that they don't have time -- time to cook, time to shop, time to spend with their family, time to go to church or work at a local charity...

I Do see, occassionally, some great investigative reporting, but it's rare. When it comes to the government though, the press usually chooses to only report, unquestioningly, that that comes out of the mouth of Ari Fleisher. Investigation the government just doesn;t happen, and while investigative journalism on the content of diapers may be important to some folks, I think that the biggest value of a free press comes from informing citizens about the governemnt they vote, or are being askedto vote, for.

It's not a GWB problem because it's been growing for years, but it has certainly gotten a lot worse lately.

Fascinating article here on radio programming:
Talking Back to Talk Radio

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 06:36 PM

troll: Well,you are right in accusing me of having biases. I own up to them, but I don't have (and you have not accused me of having) prejudges. I scour the Washington Post dialy and also skim thru the right winged Washington Times.

My point is that a lot of what is written depends on Press releases and press conferences and "unidentified sources within the_________ (fill in you own agency). The governemnt should not hold the position of *producing* the bulk of the news thru their actions with the media. That's lazy on the media's part...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Troll
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:42 PM

Bobert, I recieved my degree in Journalism from the University of Florida in 1969. I had then and have now a great deal of respect for Mr. Cronkite.I agree that the news has moved toward entertainment but television is not the only medium by which the news is disceminated. There is good, solid investigative reporting going on all the time in the print media.
I guess that the problem there is that too many people don't have the time to read anything but the sports page.
Radio and TV are passive as far as the listener/viewer is concerned. Print demands involvment and attention to detail.
There was much good reporting in the 60's and 70's but there was a lot that was garbage;just like it is today. The problem is, Bobert, that they aren't investigating the things you want to see investigated, and, when they do, they aren't arriving at the conclusions you would like to see.
Therefore, your claim that,aside from Pacifica, there is no investigative reporting anymore.
That couldn't be because Pacifica caters to your biases could it?
NAH.

troll

BTW, I don't take memory pills. I do, however, take medication for both severe depression and a mild bi-polar condition. And they take care of our problem nicely, thank you!

troll *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:25 PM

ttr: Ya gotta forgive, Doug. His lexdexia kicks in arounf the holidays and it renders him incapible of *actual reading*. Yeah, he looks at a page of words and only sees a handfull of 'em. Worse yet, he won't ake his meds! Bad Dougie... Bad...

Speaking of being off the meds, troll has forgotten to take his memory pills again. He thinks that the 60's documentaries were merely "sensationalistic" and *tabloidish* as compared to today, where investigative reporting has been fine tuned into an art. Give me a break, troll. No one, other than perhaps you, sees it that way. Don't believe me? Start you a thread entitled "Contempory Investigative Reporting by the American Press". Not only do they not report much news any more but it is so squewed toward the right.

I'm sure that you have no respect for Walter Cronkite but I heard him a couple of years ago talking about just this. He mentioned that news has moved toward "entertainment" and talked about the difficulties that they had in the 60's paring down *real news* into the 20 some minutes they have to do their half and hour segment.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 06:46 PM

Hiya DougR! I feel nervous brandishing the term moronic, yet, since the thread is all about it, I've simply incorporated it into a 'snake eating it's tail' metephor... I am not in any way saying or implying that everyone is moronic... It seems you took my words out of context, and did your own little spin. Could you do me a favor, Doug..., would you please reread my previous post? Then, instead of simply having a little 'duck shoot' with it,... maybe try to find the good hearted meaning that I know is contained therein... Thanks, and Happy Holidays! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: DougR
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:05 PM

TTR: When you ask, "Are we so moronic, ...our foriegn policy moronic ...etc.," are you suggesting that moronic is the norm? If so, GWB being a moron would not be so bad would it? *G*

Troll: Bobert and others have been on this "Summit" jag for quite awhile. As though there haven't been joint meetings up the kazoo between Israel and the Palestinians already with absolutely no satisfactory result. The fact that many of the leaders who would be invited to attend would not even sit down a the same table together has nothing to do with it. They just should, that'a all, or so Bobert and his followers seem to think. Keep in mind, though, that Bobert suffers from a high altitude malady and it affects his thought process. *G*

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:32 PM

Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah are organizations formed around misery and alienation. Surely we as world citizens and international peace keepers can initiate compassionate change all over the world. The first step, is to stop picking fights...IMHO... When it is said that "pride precedeth a fall", I would be found thinking of arrogance and self-righteous behavior. Are we smart enough to admit how moronic our foriegn policy appears these days? Or, are we so moronic that even the thought that we might be "setting a bad example"... makes us lash out with spiteful violence?;^) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Troll
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

Lurker, you speak as though Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah were entities unto themselves. They are not. They are organizations made up of individuals and as long as any of those individuals remains at large they present a danger.
Their "patrons" if you will, simply allow them to conduct world-wide operations. Their existance is not dependent on these patrons; they only increase the extent of the carnage.
As long as a few people beileve in their goals, organizations like Al-Qaeda will exist and be dangerous.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:15 PM

It is not necessary that every nation agree at the same time to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. A peace summit simply needs to take a step towards that goal. If the Palestinian Authority made believable and enforceable agreements to try to control terrorism, that would be a very good start.

As for Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah, they will go away when they no longer have support, not when anyone associated with them is sitting in a jail in Cuba.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:34 AM

Amos - great parody! Really gave me a chuckle ... it SOOOOO moronic!

Thanks - daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:44 AM

Nicole, As long as there are nations within the region (Iran & Iraq) that refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, then any peace summit is doomed to fail, because you have no starting point for any negotiation or compromise.

As for Al-Qaeda, they are the ones who, if the letter states their case succinctly, desire the destruction of the United States but also the overthrow of many of the governments of countries in the middle east. Al-Qaeda, Hizbolla, et al, will not simply go away - that is why they have to taken on.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Troll
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:09 AM

Yeah Bobert, I was around in the 60's and 70's and I remember the reports and documentaries etc. They appeared like mushrooms in a cow pasture after a good rain and disapeared about as fast as hash brownies at a love-in to make way for the next "scandal of the week".And in many cases they were forgotten in the rush to scoop the opposition. There was no follow-up. It was tabloid journalism at its finest.
And because we no longer have that kind of sensationalism, investigative reporting is dead?R.I.P.
And just who are the billions in PR t be spent on? Saddam?
I can see it now..."Attend the Emergency Peace Summit next month. All the best dictators will be there! Don't want Kim Il Jung to think you aren't with it? Come to the Emergency Peace Summit!"
Yeah! That ought to work just fine.
Refuse to sell or buy from them? Someone else will step in to meet the demand. Witness France and Iraq.
I realize that some will say that this is refusing to "think outside the box", But I think it's simply a bad idea. I don't have to eat an entire egg to know if it's bad or not . One bite will usually suffice.
Come up with a good, concrete plan to bring all the parties togetherand I'll concede that you may have something.
In fact, I'll even give you a starter. How about "Be at the summit next month or we will turn your capital into a slag heap thereby removing you and yours from the equation."
A trifle extreme perhaps but it gives you a baseline of sorts.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: DougR
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:44 AM

Bobert: you have the weirdest ideas. Do you live at a unusually high altitude there in West Virginia?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:26 PM

Yer amazing, Amos, bomb Iraq...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:13 PM

Did this show up around here yet?

Sung to the tune "If You're Happy And You Know It Clap Your Hands"


If we cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets hurt your Mama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are Saudi
And the bank takes back your Audi
And the TV shows are bawdy,
Bomb Iraq.
 
If the corporate scandals growin', bomb Iraq.
And your ties to them are showin', bomb Iraq.
If the smoking gun ain't smokin'
We don't care, and we're not jokin'.
That Saddam will soon be croakin',
Bomb Iraq.
 
Even if we have no allies, bomb Iraq.
From the sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections;
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.
 
While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq.
Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq.
If the ozone hole is growing,
Some things we prefer not knowing.
(Though our ignorance is showing),
Bomb Iraq.
 
So here's one for dear old daddy, bomb Iraq.
From his favorite little laddy, bomb Iraq.
Saying 'no' would look like treason.
It's the Hussein-hunting season.
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:07 PM

Well, I like it. Both images suit him. Neither one very complimentary...

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 04:25 PM

I would say, judging from the quality, that it was a piece of native rather than imported code...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 04:23 PM

"I am a pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity." Who, among his illustrious writers, do you suppose wrote that gem?? I mean, that's more than just a mangle.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 03:56 PM

I'm sure that line alone will go down in infamy!

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 03:30 PM

A pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity, indeed!! LOL!! Thanks for the grin, Jaze!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 02:10 PM

My exact point, Amos, about how the media is asleep at the wheel. And where do all these arms that folks are using against each other and us come from? The good ol' US of A. Yeah, they set up a number of dummy corporations and play the pea under the shell game but the US is the No. 1 supplier of the world's supply of arms.

Might of fact, many of the bullets that will rip thru our kids bodies when Junior attacks will have "Made in the USA" all over 'em.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 02:01 PM

If we could start a Carlyle scandal, it owuld do a lot to make the Burning Bush pull in his horns some, wouldn't it?

Love to see the expose on that one!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 01:55 PM

MAKE THE PIE HIGHER
By George W. bush

I think we all agree, the past is over
This is still a dangerous world
It's a world of madmen and uncertainty
and potential mental losses

Rarely is the question asked
Is our children learning?
Will the highways of the internet
become more few?

How many hands have I shaked?
They misunderestimate me.
I am a pitbull on the pantleg
of opportunity.
I know that the human being
and the fish can coexist

Families is where our nation finds hope
where our wings take dream
Put food on your family!
Knock down the tollbooth!

Vulcanize society!

Make the pie higher! Make the pie higher!

Composed by a Washington Post journalist of
actual bush quotes

Sung by Joan Baez in concert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:22 PM

Well, GUEST, I don't think anyone wants to invite Al Qaida to a peace summit. One need not meet all the demands of a radical fringe in order to stabalize the region, or at least get it on that track. Al Qaida simply won't survive in any meaningful way if the region develops a more friendly attitude toward the west and they can't gain new recruits.

As for the leverage I mentioned, there are legal precendents for economic embargoes. But it'd really be best to avoid that kind of thing since it hurts Americans, too. For our erstwhile allies, withdrawing military aid alone could be a powerful incentive.

It's true that corporations like the Carlyle Group routinely break the law and deal with countries and people with whom it's illegal. But it's also true that we don't make any attempts to investigate or punish those companies which do, and frequently reward them with government contracts. Cleaning up corruption and crime starts at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:59 AM

Yeah, right.

"Hey Osama you want fries with that?"

And that would be the competence level you'd get in government with a low wage. Either that, or those so obsessed with wielding power that you'd want them as far away from it as possible.

Come to think of it, kind of like the situation now.

But I'm interested in how the "leverage" factor would work. How are you going to stop mega-national corporations dealing with those countries on your shit list. Think they'll stop making the easy bucks because Dubya says so?

Most of the turmoil going on in the world today has a healthy contribution from/because of big business. It's they who call the shots. It's they who made rich lunatics like Osama.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:09 AM

Aw, c'mon now folks...

*ALL* politicians are eejits...that, or complete and total megalomaniacs who could give a rats ass about anything but their own power base (coughcoughbillclintoncoughcough).

We'd be a lot better off if we the people decided that political positions should earn about what a Manager at McDonalds earns...

Then, no one but those who really care about doing the real work would have anything to do with it.

S'why I voted for that wacko Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:32 AM

From the "Bin Laden" Letter:

"The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily."

Now if that fairly reflects current Al-Qaeda thinking - nothing short of the erradication of the state of Israel will satisfy them. Later on in their letter they even castigate Arab regimes who are prepared to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state, and declares them enemies.

Any real dialogue with these guys, who have attacked you and continue to plan attacks against you irrespective of your actions and intentions, seems well nigh impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:08 AM

Troll:

I guess you weren't around during the 60's and 70's when the media went out and snooped around and a week didn't go by when there was a major documentary on the tube.

What reporters do these days is take press releases that are written by whom? The Government! Yeah, they scramble a few sentence, make a couple calls and write the stories. The Gulf war is a prime example of that. The government spoon fed the media and consequently we were provided with the *government's* spin on the events. The *governemnt* has allready had meetings with the press on the upcoming Iraq War and told the media that, in essence, "You'll get what we give you." Yeah, there's more to investigative journalism than atytending one government "press conference" after another.

GUEST:

I hope that you were being flip about the destruction of Isreal but, depending on which GUEST you are, you may be perfectly serious. While I'll be the first to admit that with every suicide bomber or Palestinian shot down by the Isreal military, a ceasation of violence becomes harder to visioulize BUT, it must come and will come at some point in time. I believe that the US missed a good opportunity when it rejected the Saudi Proposal. This could have been a framework for waht I have been suggesting. Throw in some good old fashined diplomacy, Nicole's "leverages" and a couple billion bucks worth of good PR and I'd venture we wouldn't be on the eve of spending $200B and exercising the most anti-human foriegen policy option.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:22 AM

Hi Nicole, thanks for the link to the letter, makes frightening reading - I agree with your assessment that Bin Laden is an unlikely author.

If it fairly accurately sets out the points of difference and remedial actions required, the the proposed "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit" is a non-starter, since one the main remedial actions appears to be that the state of Israel must cease to exist.

Wolfgang - I agree whole-heartedly with your opinion - very well put.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:17 AM

Just a thought... before talking about "forcing" folks to attend, *asking* them first might be most appropriate.

But as the largest economy in the world, it's quite simple. Attend, or we don't sell you anything, give you any military aid, or buy anything from you. Period.

Would suck if the Sauds didn't show up though...

But there's asking and there's asking. Deputizing significant and well-respected allies (like the King of Jordan) to approach countries with which they have good relations would be more diplomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Troll
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:02 AM

Yeah Greg, it's me.I lost my cookie. Got it back though.
Bobert, just because the "rest of the media" doesn't happen to hew to the same line as Pacifica, it doesn't mean that they are all owned by "your guys", whoever That may be. It simply means that they have different editorial policies than does Pacifica. There is nothing wrong with that. It happens all the time in free societies. It is only in the totalitarian societies that all the media follow the same editorial policy.
The fact that investigative reporters for branches of the media other than Pacifica are not investigating the things that YOU think they should be investigating is not an indication of their demise.
It is merely an indication of your political bias.
Regarding your "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit", I will ask again the question I asked when you first brought it up.
How do you plan to force (yes, that's right. Force) the various countries to attend. Saddam won't sit down with Israel, the Ayatollas won't sit down with Saddam, etc.
I await your answer.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 08:38 PM

Doug:

First of all, it doesn't matter who wrote the letter. It pretty much sums up the issues that seperate the two sides.

Secondly, "investigative" journalism is DEAD in America. One of the last American investigative journalist, Greg Palast, was sent packing for diggin' in the wrong places. The only ones left are holed up at Pacifica which has five FM stations around the country. Other than that, your guys own the rest of the media.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 08:21 PM

Nicole...I am stunned. I think I have just lost every ounce of faith I ever had in the press.   They haven't reported these incredible CDs??? The NEWS of the HOUR!!! The PINNACLE of ARTISITIC ACHEIVEMENT???

Oh, woe!! The Fourth Estate, Overrun with PHILISTINES!!!

QUICK!!!!

Let them know!!! Right away!!!

Maybe the cultural affairs deskman was sick this week or sompn....


:>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 08:10 PM

You must be right Doug. The US newspapers and media know better, and we should only concern ourselves with what they choose to report on. Anything else must be, by definition, irrelevant and untrue.

And before Amos says it... my local newspaper hasn't reported on the Mudcat CDs either. They must be fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: DougR
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 07:36 PM

The most recent reports I have heard are that the audio tape supposedly made by Bin Laden was not genuine. I seriously doubt he wrote the letter either. Any "nut" could write such a letter and the press would likely print it. Particularly so if the press that did so was not very careful in their research. That could be the reason you haven't seen anything about it in your newspapers Nicole.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 04:55 PM

Bobert --

You can cheer yourself up by ordering an EXTRA set of Mudcat CD's to send to Saddam.

Or to send to DougR!! Imagine that!!! LOL!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM

Doug, and others:

While I found myself agreeing with some of the points of the Osoma Letter, I did not write it.

Actually, Osoma and John Ashcroft have a lot more in common than I do with Osoma. Both are right winged extremists. Make no bones about Osoma. If he were the President of the United States he would kill millions of people for their sins against Allah: prostitution, drug use, alcohol use, homesexuality, etc. I think Ashcroft, if left to his own devices, would severely punish folks for what he sees are the same sins.

No, this is a sobering letter and one that really makes one stop and think about how we are seen by those folks who really *are* our enemies and how, other than diverting our focus toward hot wars, can they be defeated.

One important step, I believe, would be the "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit" that I have offered as a step to derail the recruitment bonaza that our failed foriegtne policies have created for Osoma and Co..

A second step, the creation of a Department of Peace. See previous thread.

But, probably the most important step and the most difficult is for the *working class* to take back democracy and get the folks out of power who are nothing more than corporate employees. 9 out of 10 winners in the recent election were canidates who *spent to the most money*. (keep an eye on Luisiana Saturday and you'll see how it works...)

Unfortunately, there is little that the *working class* can do to stop Bush's plans to attack Iraq. Maybe the deaths of our kids and grandkids will jump start a movement large enough to leave a "No more Bush's" imprint on our collective value system.

Yeah, we're going to have to deal with these basic flaws some where down the road because until we do become a caring neigbor rather than the greedy one that we are now, the future will be paved with Osomas.

Bobert

P.S. Thanks, Nicole, for posting the link, though the reading wasn't too *fun*.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:19 PM

I already DID order my Mudcat CDs. It's not my fault I don't have 'em yet! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:02 PM

Wow, Nicole!! I am impressed. A taxing task, and a very sharp analysis.


NOW go order your Mudcat CDs!! You earned 'em!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:43 AM

LOL, Amos!

After digesting the letter (in my sleep, where I do my best thinking), I am more convinved that the letter is a) NOT written by bin Laden or those close to him, b) is written by an Arabic speaking Islamic fundamentalist and c) the translation is not very good and has been westernized.

The most compelling reason for a) is that bin Laden is quite good about passing messages to the press. He would not have just posted a letter on a web site that was intended for western ears, it would have been delivered anonymously to al Jeezera per his normal mode of operations. Secondly, bin Laden is very western-savvy. The refutation of the Jewish claims on Israel in the letter is entirely based on religion. In the West, however, a strong legal precedent exists for the concept of ownership by possession. But the fact that the Palestinians had been living there for thousands of years, many of those when the Jewish hadn't, isn't even mentioned. Bin Laden would not have missed such an easy argument.

This point also speaks to point b). A western writer would not have missed that point; it would have been given equal billing with the religious one.

The translation seems poor because of the use of words like "revenge." Islam does NOT allow revenge -- it does, however, allow (and require) self-defence. The use of a word like revenge is a loaded one in English, but does not really convey the original concept defined just prior to it's use. Self-defense would have been a better word, but it doesn't speak very agressively in English. Then, he writer makes a compelling argument against the idea that people in a democracy can ever be considered civilians, but follows up with the idea that killing civilians is permitted in Islam. Other than the fact that killing civilians is specifically prohibitted in the qaran, it makes no sense to make such a statement following an argument that Americans are NOT civilians because they control the actions of their government.

The westernization of the translation seems most apparent in the topic of women. There appears to be a gap in the text. On other subjects, the writer is very verbose. On this one, there is only a short paragraph. Why? The paragraph which refers to the exploitation of women for commercial means being a limitation rather than a freedom is very much mainstream Islam. Although most feminists would not be happy with the proscribed role for women in the Qaran, it is MUCH more pro-female than the Old or New Testament. Yet, we know that fundamentalist Muslims do not share this generally pro-female view with the rest of Islam. Are there paragraphs missing, removed to appeal to the western audience that the translation is for? I suspect the paragraph on women was followed up by more fundamentalist views. Elsewhere, the author didn't pull any punches about anti-Jewish or anti-western statements; it makes no sense that the writer would have done so about women.

Anyway, that's my general concept on the authorship. I am inclined to this the author is a Saudi who believes in the fundamentalist movements and may be involved in it, but is not in a leadership position.

As a HUGE fan of pluralistic societies, I can't say that the world view expoused in this letter is something I'd like to come anywhere near. But there are legitimate grievances about Western actions that we can and should address. By doing so, the West can help avoid the spread of this kind of sentiment and the violence -- and death -- that follows in it's wake.

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 11:22 AM

Wonder if they would change their tune if we sent them those terrific Mudcat Sampler CDs??


Wolfgang -- well said, and fully agreed!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:26 AM

I have read the letter Nicole has linked to with great interest for I previously only had read about that letter.
Especially the second part (what they want from the 'West' to stop) gives me ample reason to oppose them. What they demand is so much in contradiction to how I prefer to live that I'd go to great lengths to prevent them coming close to their aims.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:06 AM

Ya wanna know how dumb this Bush fella is? I'll tell ya. He hasn't bought that Condolezza Schwartz a copy of these here Mudcat CDs yet!! It would make her day, and he ain't lifted a finger!! Talk about OB-tuuuse!! I swan!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Its' official Bush is a moron
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 09:56 AM

Terribus, agree to disagree. The article is on a public forum.