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Opinions please (unauthorized taping)
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Subject: BS: Opinions please From: GUEST Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:27 PM What do you all think about people who, at a gathering, run tape recorders without asking? Some of the people there have invested money in tapes and CDs, and, these free tapes don't do them a bit of good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Gareth Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:33 PM Well - if they enjoy the crap that a tape recorder can make of a goood singer/player I don't think you have much to worry about. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: GUEST Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:39 PM I think a folksinger with heart and brains would mark it up to marketing overhead and not fret about it. It probably helps sales int he long run, assuming he/she's good. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Sorcha Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:42 PM Doesn't bother me at all, but then I am not Pro and the little money I ever recieve buys me dinner at the group Christmas Party. I wouldn't do it to the real pros, tho. That is rude. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: GUEST Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:47 PM In my experience, people who run thier own recorders at events like sessions (and I guess gatherings) are usually doing so with the intention of learning rather than for profit. Even though I never feel comfortable with a recorder by me, I believe this practice should be encouraged where learning songs or tunes is the aim. Regards quality; unlike Gareth refers to "crap", I have heard some rather good recordings, I think made at least mostly on Minidisk that IMO would be worthy of going on a commercial CD. This is perhaps a worry to the artists performing a venue but I hardly think it applies to informal events (I'm assuing gatherings do not include paid commercial acts). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Sorcha Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:50 PM If it's a session, I would record. If it's a paid for concert, no way.They often screen out recording devices at paid for concerts anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: GUEST,iggy folk Date: 25 Nov 02 - 08:55 PM I once saw Mike Seeger get very angry when he noticed someone taping. He stopped playing and explained how he himself had taped a number of performers, but had always asked permission first. He said it was a matter of simple curiosity. That was a long time ago and maybe times have changed, but I tend to agree. iggy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:14 PM The last doofus who did it to me talked to his buddy Beevis the whole time the tape was running. Must have been an exercise in cacophony. Or poetic justice. I've with Gareth--may they all get what they deserve, which is probably a bad recording. CC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: kendall Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:23 PM I feel it would be polite to ask. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Art Thieme Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:34 PM My interest was mainly in transmitting the songs into the ether any way I could do that. I never minded folks taping my live shows or even dubbing my recordings. On occasion I even showed people that sitting near a speaker would secure a better recording for them. ------- But that's just me I guess. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Big Mick Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:40 PM I would prefer they ask. I would never record anothers performance without their consent. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Genie Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:52 PM I never thought much about it when folks have done this at song circles, jams, gathering and retreats,and informal sessions. Sometimes there even has been a statement made at the outset encouraging folks to record. And, frankly, it would often be intrusive if folks had to stop and ask for permission before each song. Now that you mention it, though, it would not be a bad idea for the issue to be brought up before the singing starts. The 'leader' or host could ask: "Is there anyone who objects to being recorded?" Concerts and other paid performances are a different matter, I think. But like Art, when I have tape recorded workshops or performances, say, at NW Folklife Festival, it's been only as a memory aid (to help remember tunes, for instance, when lyric sheets were handed out), and my little mini-recorder would never produce a good substitute for a CD! Genie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Big Mick Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:27 PM Yeah, Genie. Good distinction. If I am in a song circle, or a workshop, I have no objections whatever, nor would I expect folks to ask. That is simply the way of it in those settings. I guess I am talking about when I am performing. I would always say yes, but I prefer to be asked. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: kendall Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:37 PM There are few things more annoying than someone who does not know how to operate a recorder, fast winding and poking buttons in a performance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Rick Fielding Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:43 PM Well, thirty years ago I probably wouldn't have said a damn thing. Twenty years ago, I'd have been very annoyed and would have talked to them after the show. Ten years ago, I'd have asked them from the stage why they didn't ask first. Now........I'd just shoot them. Actually, what I'd PROBABLY do now, if I noticed would be to center them out and remind them that it's good manners to ask.....THEN I'd shoot them. Dan'l Boone |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:06 AM It would be "curiosity " to ask ? I would "center" them out ? A VERY amusing thread, keep up the good work |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: Troll Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:34 AM I always thought that one used a semi-colon to separate two complete sentences. Perhaps GUESTS expertise extends only to spelling. If that is indeed the case,"Let not the cobbler overstep his last." troll ***I probably missed two obvious typos*** |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinions please From: greg stephens Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:51 AM If you dont ask first, you should certainly expect to be publicly shamed, and some performers can do it in quite a humiliating fashion. |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: mack/misophist Date: 26 Nov 02 - 10:49 AM For decades the Greatful Dead encouraged their fans to record at their concerts. It doesn't seem to have done them any harm. That said, of course one should ask first. Where are your manners? |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Homeless Date: 26 Nov 02 - 03:25 PM Since the opening post specified "at gatherings" I'll stick in my thoughts based on a recent experience. Sitting in an after hours song circle I'd been told that it was more "friends singing together" than it was any kind of performance. I was very hesitant to try to sing or play anything, because the last time I'd sung (in public, 20 years ago) I'd been severely humiliated. Eventually, because of the camaradarie and supportive atmosphere, I went ahead and stumbled my way thru a couple of songs. Singing off key, BAD screwups on the guitar, the whole bit. I didn't really mind the people within the room seeing and hearing, because they'd been warned of my inexperience, but were willing to listen and supportive anyway. Sure, I'd seen the recorder running earlier in the evening, but I guess I hadn't thought thru the possible consequences of being taped. That and I assumed (ooh, that word) that the tape was for personal use only. I guess that since it was running before I ever sang a note, that singing without asking specifically not to be taped is then implied permission. And truth be told, I was so nervous about singing in front of people that being recorded was the last thing on my mind. So I sing out loud in front of a room full of people, and lo and behold I didn't die or even go into convulsions (tho the nervous shakes were close). A breath of relief and a relatively pleasant memory. But then later I see the tape up for sale. Probably no profit being made - which wouldn't matter to me anyway- but it is being distributed to whoever wants a copy, which really makes me uneasy. Like I said, I didn't mind the people within that room hearing me, but now a countless number of others will. I'm not comfortable with the fact that anyone who wants can now see me stumbling thru my unrehearsed debut, and doing a buggered up job of it. So while I have started singing quite a bit when I'm by myself, I do know that I won't likely ever sing or play in public again. I guess what I'm saying is while I wouldn't mind being taped at a song circle for use only by the person taping, I'm strongly against that recording being distributed. It just seems to violate the "just friends" atmosphere that got me to open up. In different circumstances I might have a different opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Burke Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:29 PM Homeless, could you check & verify that your contribution was included on the tape being sold. What that person has done is highly unethical & very possibly illegal. If a profit is being made has nothing to do with it. Your singing should not be distributed to others without your personal permission. It seems to me your assumptions were the same I might make. In a session there might indeed be an implied permission for taping for personal use. Use beyond that really needs to be stated up front, or release notice/permission sought before distrubution. It's a matter or courtesy. |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Liz the Squeak Date: 27 Nov 02 - 03:04 AM I don't mind being taped whilst singing, but if I know about it, I will try and credit the song... not always easy. If do one of my own songs, I get embarassed about broadcasting that I wrote the crap, so just do the song without a credit. If anyone is interested enough in it to want to know it's origins, they will ask me. Of course, the best thing is hearing someone else sing one at a session, calling it traditional.... always great fun to tell them where it really comes from! Besides - hands up here who has NEVER made a recording of a session or singaround they've been involved in. The trouble starts when it's used for financial gain... then you can sue. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Bat Goddess Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:07 AM Informal gatherings are fair game -- FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. Ya can't really ask permission of everyone because parties, sessions, singarounds, etc. are fluid and singers come and go. (I never hide the fact that I'm recording and I figure if someone really objects to me recording them, they'll let me know.) It's very useful to me personally to record some of these gatherings because rarely is it just that the song is sung -- usually there's some conversation about from whom it was learned, bits of historical notes, exchanages of information, anecdotes about other times it was sung, origins, etcet etcet. A concert or a performance should NEVER be recorded without the permission of the performer, no matter how bad the recording quality may be. (And, quite honestly, most stuff recorded on non-professional equipment and not hooked directly into the sound board is not good for much other than learning a song.) I think I've only recorded a performance (other than our own) once -- with permission, and I gave the performer a copy of the tapes. It was a small crowd at a weeknight performance at a local pub and the best part of the tape was the extreme end where those of us left were just sitting around singing. (And I really need to listen to that tape again, because it MAY be one of the very, very few recordings of the pub owner who was a WONDERFUL singer and passed away recently.) Linn |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Jeri Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:50 AM While I don't think tapes of informal gatherings have any chance of making any negative impact in preofessional recording sales, I understand what Homeless is saying. I've become more confident about singing over time and the thought of being recorded doesn't bother me as much as it once did. If I'd noticed someone taping a couple years ago, I simply wouldn't have sung. Of course, I've felt the same way about being photographed and that's what these tapes are more than anything else - aural photographs. One person, on one occasion, knew I was taking photographs and simply asked me to not share his image with people who had not been there. I figured if I aimed the camera at him and he smiled, it was safe to take the picture. If I know someone's recording and I sing, I'm giving them some sort of permission to take me home on tape. I do NOT believe either photos or tapes should be shared with folks who weren't there to see the act being committed live without permission. If we were present, there are no secrets being revealed to us. I also have not one shred of doubt that if I asked any of these tapers, they'd gladly either turn the machine off when I sang or edit me out of the copies shared with attendees. |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:46 AM Of course, one of my favorite tapes was made by our folk club at Michigan State University back in the 1970's when Sarah Gray, Owen MacBride and the Friends of Fiddlers Green stormed in from Toronto and sang several sets of traditional ballads, sea shanties, drinking songs and outrageous parodies of all of the above. I'm not sure if permission was ever asked by the club coordinators but I certainly treasure the unique result, which is a well-worn copy of a copy. And, no, I won't sell you a copy. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: KingBrilliant Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:16 PM Homeless - that really is cheeky!!! Its also very annoying that people could hear your less than perfect debut - but don't let it put you off!!!! Everyone knows that people's level of performance changes over time & with circumstances. And the audience for the tape is likely to be similar to the audience that was there - ie they will be interested to listen, will be impressed that you got up and did something, and will take it for what it is (a tape of a singaround, not a professional studio recording). I bet it doesn't sound as stumbly as you think anyway - its generally only ourselves that hear our stumbles. Remember back to how pleased and relieved you were at the time, and think how much more pleasure there is to come.... get some practice in, then go treat your guitar to another night out. Kris |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: denise:^) Date: 27 Nov 02 - 03:06 PM Our local folk society had a problem a few years ago with a guy who kept coming up and sticking a mic in people's faces when they were trying to sing, or slipping them behind their chair while they were playing. Disgust and annoyance didn't deter him in the least; an article in our newsletter was ignored; we finally had to get quite blunt and tell him that he needed to ask, as some folks aren't comfortable being recorded--and others may be performing original material that they don't want 'floating around' unauthorized. It isn't hard to just ask permission--most folks will say yes, and even go out of their way to accommodate you! On one occasion, I was at a concert at the Ark in Ann Arbor, and the performer was having a miserable time with a hum in the sound system. He finally stopped the performance, so they could go over the sound--and I watched, while he and the sound guy checked out the system from every imaginable angle, but the hum was gone, and everything was fine. They started the show again--and there was that hum again!! At the same time, I noticed that a man at our table had turned on a tape recorder just as the hum started. I don't know much about sound systems, but, for whatever reason, this man's recorder was interfering with the sound in a most annoying way. The hum and the turning on of the recorder were too closely synchronized for anything else. I looked across the table at him, and hissed through my teeth: "TURN THAT OFF!!" He started to protest, and I hissed again: "NOW!!" He turned it off, the hum stopped immediately, and the show proceeded, unhampered... I'd say it's best, and easiest, to ask before taping! denise:^) |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: GUEST,Russ Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:16 PM I do American old time. At informal gatherings the default is for many if not most of the participants to be recording. The recordings or pieces of them are freely circulated. It's been that way for decades. As for concerts, I don't invariably record them. If the venue has a no recordings policy, I don't even take the equipment. If the performer(s) express antipathy to recordings at the beginning, I don't start. Otherwise, my credo is "It is easier to obtain forgiveness than permission." If the performer(s) were to notice what I'm doing and ask/tell me to stop I would do so as graciously as possible. I would also try to graciously accept any abuse heaped upon my head. So far that hasn't happened. |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Genie Date: 27 Nov 02 - 09:51 PM Homeless, I can kinda relate to your experience. I will sing/play, and have sung/played, songs at gatherings (even at paid nursing-home gigs, if someone's just gotta hear their favorite song) which were not thoroughly rehearsed, with the (tacit?) understanding that "this is just for fun" or "this is just so you folks can learn the song" or something like that. I.e., folks at the event understood it wasn't "ready for prime time." But sometimes folks will tape record or video tape me at that moment, and I end up wishing I hadn't done the song if I think the tape's going to be played by/folks who have never heard me before. This would never make me vow not to sing in public again, and I hope it won't make you do that, either. But if someone tried to sell or otherwise distribute such a tape, I'd be a very unhappy camper! You have to obtain a model release in most cases to distribute a photograph of someone, so I'd think similar laws would apply to audio/videotapes. (I'm not sure how the law applies when you're performing, but I think it does apply to a singaround or such.) I gotta admit that it was even a bit scary, after singing with folks at JenEllen's "Camp Runamuck" this summer, to realize that the recording (sans warm-up, sans rehearsal, sans audio engineers) was going to be made available to Mudcatdom in general. There was a time when, if I had realized that, I would have either tried to "play to the microphone" or just clammed up (the audio version of posing for the camera or hiding your face)--like Jeri said. Now, I guess it doesn't seem all that important. But, as Burke said, "Your singing should not be distributed to others without your personal permission." Liz , when someone records someone else singing their original songs, another isssue is involved. The songwriter may not want the song distributed or sung by others until they have the copyright registered, etc, as Jeri pointed out. But, like you, I often do not announce in advance that a song I sing is mine. (I think you get a more honest reaction to the song if people don't know up front that it's your own creation.) If no one asks me who wrote it, I won't mention that I did. But if it's taped and someone distributes the tape, that could be problematic. Linn, you said it well: Denise, re the guy who kept coming up behind folks and recording them, let me say that what is most offensive to me is having folks start recording after you have started a song. That makes it very awkward for you to say anything to them or stop singing. (I suppose you could finish the song and then ask them to rewind and record over it.) And your story about the recorder and the "hum," illustrates yet another good reason for not doing unauthorized taping at performances! Genie |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: kendall Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:35 PM ASK |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Rapparee Date: 28 Nov 02 - 09:06 AM Certainly, a lack of courtesy and manners. Why, shucks, them folks jis' din't have no good raisin', they say down in Kentucky. Performances should be released by the performers (and I phrase this as such deliberately). Selling an unreleased performance is taking money from the performers, defrauding them of not only money but, in some cases, even of reputation. I wouldn't hesitate to see if a little feedback might help, remonstrating with them for their impoliteness, and since that wouldn't work, a little speaker feedback might. Although, IMHO, tar and feathers might serve better. 8-) They also probably kick puppies, drink Budweiser, and pee in public. |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: kendall Date: 28 Nov 02 - 09:32 AM And, they vote republican |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: MikeofNorthumbria Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:11 AM A point worth remembering is that today's unauthorised recording may be tomorrow's priceless archive item. Consider the recently issued CD compilations of work by Martin Carthy, Peter Bellamy, and Nic Jones. Alongside the 'official' tracks, they all feature informal recordings - some being of songs which these artists never recorded in a studio, and others of alternative versions of familiar songs issued on previous disks. We'd all be a lot poorer without such recordings - including the artists and/or their families, who did get a piece of the action eventually. And sometimes a complete session tape surfaces after decades of neglect, to remind us of how a shamefully under-recorded performer really sounded in their prime. Witness the amazing Davy Graham CD "After hours" - originally recorded at a late-night party in a student bedsitter in Hull. (Hull Catters may wish to cheer at this point!) So, the moral is: run the tapes, but be polite and ask permission first. And if you do want to put it on a CD, then play fair, and co-operate with the copyright owners. Wassail! |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: greg stephens Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:32 AM Agree with Mike from Northumbria...tape,tape and tape again, as long as you have permission and arent a bloody nuisance. I've got some priceless(to me) tapess. The cream of the crop is Aubrey Cantwell singing the Nightingale (The "and they kissed so sweet and comforting" version). In his own village pub, sitting in the corner at a session. And as far as I know it was a previous collector getting that song from him that started the song on its way to being a serious folk anthem. And I', extremely glad I sang it with him once, and extremely extremely glad that I have a memnto of the occasion. I've no idea if any recordings of him are available commercially, but I've never heard of any. |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Jim McLean Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:39 AM When Bob Dylan was in London in the early 60s, his manager Al Grossman used to tape all the songs on the Saturday session in the Troubadour, London. He would then take them back to his hotel and see what could be made of the 'Trad' songs. God on our Side came out of The Patriot Game (which was NOT Trad), among others. This is not a folk tale as I was there at the time and told Dylan, when he asked me, that Dominic Behan wrote The Patriot Game. Jim McLean |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: greg stephens Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:46 AM The tune of the Patriot Game is trad, Jim, so it was fair game for Bob Dylan to borrow it. You would argue that he borrowed the sentiment of the words too to some extent, but only in a very oblique way. |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: greg stephens Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:49 AM And by a strange coincidence,Jim, the tune of the Patriot Game is the "other" tune for the Nightingale referred to in my posting before yours. Unless, of course, it's not a coincidence, perhaps my post made you think of that tune? |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Jim McLean Date: 28 Nov 02 - 11:02 AM Come on Greg, you may rationalise it how you like but Dylan didn't know The Nightingale as his verse '..My name it is nothing..' is a straight take on 'My name is O'Hanlon' and all the other lines of that verse. He asked me who wrote the Patriot Game and I think he confused Dominic with Brendan. Jim |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: Jim McLean Date: 28 Nov 02 - 11:06 AM PS There is an LP of Dylan and Joan Baez, I think it was reorded at Woodstock(?) but there are credits for the song as written by Dylan/Behan but after that Dylan claimed it as original. Jim |
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Subject: RE: Opinions please (unauthorized taping) From: EBarnacle1 Date: 29 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM I shall always treasure the recording I made of me singing contratenor on "Taxi," while accompanying Harry Chapin at a festival. |
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