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A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers
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Subject: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,iggy folk Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:32 PM I'm afraid circumstances have turned me into one of those sometimes maligned guests, but I've actually been around Mudcat for quite a while and was an active member. Long enough to remember when music threads actually had more than one or two informed posters. Long enough to remember when non music discussions really were just that rather than silly pointless attempts at humour or just tedious one sided political rants. The recent spate of 'what have the****done for us'. endless silly 'Hull' threads and obvious Middle East shit disturbing is what has made me finally speak up. I remember the flame wars of two or three years ago, and I remember Oldtimers like Joe Offer, MMario, Art Theime and even the bizarre misanthrope Gargoyle trying to get the focus off endless BS chatter and back to music. Obviously it didn't work, and I wonder if they've simply given up. It really feels like this once fascinating site is in complete freefall at the moment and it makes me sad. So here's a bit of a challenge and a simple question for the members who've been here for a few years. I know you've made friends here and you don't want to rock the boat but are you happy with the way Mudcat currently is? Are you comfortable enough to come in under the name you normally post with and give your opinion? For all I know this message will be misinterpreted as being a flame and be removed before anyone has a chance to see it. I hope not because I'm sincere but if it is then I guess I've gotten my answer. I live in an area where there are several Mudcatters (not Hull!) but far fewer post now than did a couple of years ago. I'm not sure why they left but I do know that they loved folk music. I haven't labeled this BS because I think it does deal with music and I hope my thoughts don't get shot down too quickly by the first people to respond. And to Joe Offer et al, I really hope you haven't given up trying to make this site vital. iggy |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:36 PM Iggy, I believe that you are sincere. But this stuff is cyclical. There are still plenty of great music posts, and the same old rule applies. Just don't jump in where you aren't interested. All you have done here is ignite the same old argument. Art still posts regularly to what he wants, as do many others. This isn't a music site. It is a site about music and the issues that surround it, as well as a place where we discuss whatever. There are the inane hangers on who don't have much of value, but they come and go as they tire of their own silliness. Glad to see you here again. Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Sorcha Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:47 PM No, I am not too happy just now, mostly because of the "What Has" copycat threads, but Mick is correct, it does seem to be cylical. They will get tired of it eventually, I hope. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:48 PM Hi, iggy: Being a new-timer, I can't give the perspective that you're looking for. But, just being on a year, I've lived through the Flame Wars, and now the boring What Has Your Mother-in-Law Done For You (don't start it, please!)threads and the threads with 9 in them. I notice that they proliferate, while some music threads just roll off the table, unnoticed. As an example, nutty posted the words to a wonderful song, at my request. It was so far down the list, lost in the What Has... threads, that I didn't even see it until it was brought to my attention, and I had to pull it up from the 3 day setting. The last I saw it, it had a grand total of 2 responses. Counting mine. I suspect that there's a natural cycle that most people go through here on Mudcat. The initial excitement (which must have been far higher when Mudcat first started) simmers down to a mild addiction. Mudchat has kicked everything into high gear for me again, and I am having a great time getting to know people who have just been a paragraph on an occasional thread. I think that it's natural that the lyric requests would taper off, as more and more of them have been answered. I've also noticed rather grumpy comments from the old-timers when someone starts a thread, not realizing that the topic has already been discussed. There are times when I hear "We've alreaddddyyyyy discussed that..." Well, excuuuuuuuuuuse me. I think the posting of related, earlier threads is a great addition to Mudcat (thank you, Max and company.) It offers the chance to go back to previous discussions for those who are interested. I rarely am, in honesty... If I was here to read old discussions, Max could just publish transcripts and I could read them in my recliner. Mudcat is a living, changing organism. It's not going to be what it was, and God knows (I think) where it's going. At times it will be irritating as Hell, and at times it will be exciting. I'm just thankful to Max that I can come along for the ride. I don't consider this a "flame," at all. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:53 PM Agreed, Jerry. As an old timer who occasionally gets grumpy and regrets it later, I think you are spot on. We need to remind ourselves sometimes that the key to a site staying vital is to be welcoming to new folks and be helpful. Sometimes it is necessary to speak truth as one sees it, but for the most part just ignore. I don't even open the inane "what has" threads. I think a might have read or posted in the first one, but haven't been back since. Usually when I see Shatner, Hull, or Punch the Horse, I just don't open them. I will wait till I get to Hull to see what all the Hull-aballoo is about. When you coming to Michigan? Would love to sing with you. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Amos Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:57 PM I have bitten my tongue for the most part about the BS currently waxing high on the threads, although I prefer a more refined brand of BS myself, because one of the things I have MOST benefited from on this site is the benevolent tolerance of most of its members -- and I have barely deserved it. So i try to give as good as I get, although I do not alweays succeed! :>) Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: khandu Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM Iggy, I agree with Mick. Yeah, some of the redundancy gets worn, and there seems always to be the political crap. There are members who respond only to musical threads; those who respond to music and BS (like myself), and there are those who respond only to BS. And, at times, there does seem to be more BS than anything. But, just about every time I check in, there are quite a few interesting musical threads. I have been here for a couple of years. In fact, when I first started becoming a regular, there was quite a Mudcat storm in progress. But, in the midst of the storm (and those that have followed) I found enough sunshine to keep me coming again and again. It ain't perfect here, it will never be, and at times, it is less perfect than at other times. But, winds blow, and when the dust settles, there is still much about Mudcat that is worthy of our returning! khandu |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:00 PM For what it;s worth Iggy, I reckion you are right. There is a lot of shit around here at the minute, there is quite a few copycat threads about, and too much about Hull, but don't forget that most of the "Hull" threads were started by people not from Hull.I reckon the others are right though, when they say it will soon get make to normal, don't forget though, that there is a few things that you can do to help, you can post lyrics, if you don't have any to hand then just write a song and post it, you can refresh good music threads and don't forget there is loads of good information in the archives, for example you could type in title of your favourite songs and find out the history, also have a look at the links section , there is loads of good stuff there.john |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Tinker Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:05 PM Iggy, your post was much to well thought out to be flaming. I've been around for a couple of years now and I'm not much of a musician or scholar (though I love both). The cycles come and go. My patience wears thin somedays with nonsense, but if I find myself irritated I usually try to filter the BS for a day or two. Despite my best intensions I've been sucked in to the flames a time or two... But when I needed to update a workshhop at the last minute last year. Rick and Jerry were there to give me permission to pass out lyric sheets and use their songs. ( Sorry I never got back to you Jerry... June and Kids is a bad combination) Several folks made a point at the end of the session to come up and say it was just what they needed. The community is still here... it's just got a bigger playground some days.. Kathy |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bob Bolton Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:06 PM G'day IggyFolk, Mick, Sorcha and Jerry, I know it looks depressing to see all those aptly titled BS threads ... but, as often is said - you don't have to read them! Conversely, I decided to throw up a thread about the underlying Germanic links in the expression - and related song - "Waltzing Matilda. I addressed it to Wolgang - after considering simply PMing him on the subject - then deciding; "No ... let's see what the other 'Catters may have! What happened? Despite Wolgang himself actually being away for the weekend, a lot of other 'Catters popped straight in and provided links, personal recollections and linguistic observations ... and my thank you, posted just now, brought the thread to 17 postings (all helpful!) in 4 or 5 days. How can I complain that the MudCat is not working ... marvellously? Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: NicoleC Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:12 PM Oh, I post on the BS threads a lot. I don't have much musical wisdom to share, but that doesn't mean I don't read the music threads and learn a lot from them. I personally wouldn't stick around if I could only watch. Of the music thread questions I've posted, sometimes I get amazing, wonderful responses. Other times the threads are ignored. The great responses are certainly worth the empty ones. You know, I don't think I've felt the urge to open a "Hull" thread yet. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Justa Picker Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:18 PM The forum has become a chat place and a community. Music runs through it but often some of the best musical contributions are rendered incidental by the BS crowding it off the page. One of the most interesting and telling new features in the upgraded version of Mudcat, are not the improved bells and whistles but rather, the conspicuoulsly absent words of "A Magazine Dedicated To Folk and Blues Music" at the top of the page. That Kids...tells the story. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Art Thieme Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:20 PM Aye, and it's a hull of a good place to hang out is this Mudcat--in spite of our, if we are not careful, being in danger of steppin' in sumthin' squishy and negatively aromatic. I'm still lurking and waiting, Gollum-like, crouching in the shadows for my precious music threads to rear their pretty heads once again when, as the proverbs all tell us, what goes around comes around yet again. In the meantime, what will be, will be. As Leadbelly said in his fine song, "Relax Your Mind". Art Thieme There you go, Art. Love, Your Friendly Neighborhood Mudelf |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: kendall Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:22 PM I agree to a point. There are way too many inane threads that take up space, but, I just skip over them. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: toadfrog Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:58 PM Iggy: I'm not an "old timer." Around for just less than 2 years. For what its worth, I agree. It is v. difficult to "ignore" the BS, when there are 30-40 such threads every day, and by no means all the BS threads are labeled as such. So that you cannot really pick around it, unless you spend 3-4 hours on line every day, which those of us who work can't do. The types of BS do run in cycles; one thing is in fashion, then another. Why that should be comforting I couldn't say. But can be done about it? Preach abstinence? Just Say No? I can't even stop myself from adding to the political threads. Can't bear to let the bad guys have the last word. So? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: momnopp Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:00 PM I LOVE MUDCAT It's a living, breathing entity as mentioned above. I can stay away from the threads for months and months, and when I come back, there's always a community of generous, fun, witty, knowledgeable, interesting, goofy, wise and loving people with interesting points of view here to share with. I wouldn't have it any other way, personally. I've recently been reminded that ". . .all polishing takes place because of friction. . ." Peace, JudyO |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bassic Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:01 PM Ok, I suppose I had better say "good bye" to my friends, get an up to date copy of the Hull telephone directory and let the music take care of itself. I just get synical when people want to suck the life out of things. Sorry to have troubled you all. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bassic Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:03 PM Folk music eliteist? I know a thread about that! (Rainbow philosopy) |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bill D Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:11 PM I made a plea or two for fewer "what have they done for us" threads, but obviously the thrill is not quite gone yet. The first couple were 'kinda' cute, but sheeeesh! I just hope the 'cycles' we all know exist aren't as long as the global warming & cooling cycles, or Joe Offer will be discovered 30,000 years from now in a block of ice with his finger on the 'edit' button...or is that the 'destruct' button? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:12 PM I've been here a while and consider myself one of the "old-timers". I am happy enough with the Mudcat as it sits because there are threads which are about the music. (Thanks to the filter, I don't see the BS threads at all!). The reason is that Mudcat (for me) isn't about what it WAS, but what it IS at the time. There are lots of new music threads every day, and thanks to people like Masato, I get to learn new things, just about every day.
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: JedMarum Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:19 PM am I an oldtimer? I've been around for s few years now, and I've seen the cycles. It seems to me this current cycle is long and particularly virulent - but I do agree that the sh*t comes and goes. Old folks fade, some leave - new ones come along; they love the music resource, enjoy a thread or two and then get involved (or don;t) in what I consider junk threads. I haven't bothered to look at the "what's your mama done for me lately" threads. Nor do I look at most threads - but I come her everyday and read the music threads - I occasionally respond - BUT I've started doing something that I strongly suspect other old timers do; when I have a music question in mind, the first thing I do is read the old threads. I probably spend as much time doing that as I do reading new ones. I occasionally bring the old threads back up, with a new comment or two. It's true there isn;t always good stuff being discussed (at least good stuff that I care about)- but there's been good stuff talked about here over they years, and it's only a few keystrokes away! I also dig a lot in the DT. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: JedMarum Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:24 PM yeah - the other thing that I love about this place is, when you have a new music question ... and you post it - you'll get great answers, quickly and usually with some variety. It true, that the music threads very often die quickly - but maybe that's because they get answered quickly. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:27 PM Iggy - thank you!!!! you sometimes never meet a kindred soul. It is a perplexing problem....one that, no doubt...Max, Joe, Dick and Susan have wrestled with. Is it a "law of nature" that we all MUST return to the least common denominator.? How to keep a focus...AND allow free - public access? As a right-wing (beyond Ghengis Kong) conservative, it was the libertarian aspects that drew me into Folk Music dialogue....good Lord knows, descent folk discussion is few and far between....and I hate splitting hairs within a quadrant....when one is desperate for a rant....and all in a thread are your peers. IMHO...The MudCat Cafe is one of the MOST PECULIAR micro-cosums of inter-net communities on the web, today, 02/25/02. When I jumped in - mid -90's the net was still an exclusive world of FTPers...and 300baud was hot stuff. Sooo...I don't know... I like some (05% of the BS) and I post to them. If there is one thing I have deffinately learned at the MudCat...it is ...
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: JedMarum Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:33 PM I never even looked at what the filters can do ... I just choose what to look at and then I choose what I will respond to. I have my own filter. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:35 PM yep, fellow Beef Brother, it is called eyes, ears and a brain. We going to ramble? Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:36 PM We've* always thought that free expression is very important at Mudcat, and we do what we can to preserve that freedom of expression. We do feel bound to delete messages and thread that are obviously posted in an attempt to hurt somebody, or to sell something that has nothing to do with folk music. We encourage people to express their own opinions on any subject, but we will delete lengthy non-music copy-paste entries when we see them - expecially if the piece can be found elsewhere on the Internet (but please DO post the text of most music items you find, making sure to include attribution). We rename and sometimes reorganize threads to make it easier for people to find things, but we're not about to interfere with the general freedom that people enjoy here. On the other hand, we reserve the right to do what we think we ought to do, but we promise to listen to complaints from people who don't like the way we do it. No, we're not going to do anything to stop the bullshit threads, although I have to say that I personally hate the current spate of "done for" threads and all the other unimaginative copycat threads (and yes, I sometimes combine them when they get out of hand). I also am personally sick and tired of the narcissistic PEL campaign. While I'm at it, let me say I personally see no value in birthday threads when we have so many Mudcat bithdays that greetings become Spam. Note that I use the word "personally" because I want to emphasize that although I have a job here, I'm also entitled to a personal opinion. And no, I'm not happy with the preponderance of bullshit I've seen at Mudcat at the last week. If you're not happy with a stupid thread, why not send a personal message to the person who started it, and tell him or her how stupid you think they are? Reasonable personal messages are usually far more effective than flame wars. What some of us "oldtimers" try to do is encourage music - not control the bullshit. The origins and DTStudy threads are extraordinary - take a look here to find a treasure trove of music threads. Take a look here (click) to see what's happening to Mudcat MIDIs. So there's still a lot of good stuff happening. I still spend as much as 40 hours a week on the music end of Mudcat, and I'd guess people like Malcolm and Masato and MMario spend near that amount. the take a look at Jerry R's Gospel Workshop to see what some of our newcomers have done. We're still trying to do our best, but we have a variety of needs and interests to serve. -Joe Offer-
I deleted a thread the other day because it turned into a flamefest, but the original post had some worthwhile ideas. I think I'll post it here.
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rick Fielding Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:51 PM Hmmmmm, howdy Iggy. Nope this is hardly a flame, but I know what you mean about gettin' shot down early. I've seen it happen....all depends who the first couple of folks are who see a thread. Some folks always seem to want to tell others what's appropriate and what isn't. Somebody once called them "Mudcat gatekeepers". But you know what? The best way to foil them is to have several of those "Mudcat Old Timers" that you referred to, come in first....part of the "inner clique" so to speak, Ha Ha! So far not ONE anonymous Nasty, right? Does that tell you something? What it tells me is that there may be a LOT of folks who share your concerns (I do, but I ain't gonna lose any sleep over it) I've been here for four years, and the reason I come here now is TOTALLY different than the reason I came here in '99. Then it was for musical discussions, seriously good writing in Political threads, and some absolutely WICKED humour now and then. I come here now because many of these folks ARE my friends, and some are incredibly good friends. It's nice to be in contact with them. Plus....on occasion some of the "old stuff" shows up. Oh, and if you don't think "newbies" like Gerry Rasmussen and Harvey Andrews, and about a dozen other articulate knowledgable folkies counter-act the tiresome "What Have The.....Shatner and Hull" threads, I think you're wrong. Mudcat COULD have stayed pretty much as it was a few years ago.....but for that to happen, One person (not even a committee) would have had to seriously edit threads and remove "DUMB" or "WRONG" opinions, and of course BANISH people who were not really up on folk music. Max, the person who's playground this is, said on a number of occasions that we'd have to "Police Ourselves". Well....be honest with yourself Iggy, can you EVER imagine 'self-policing' resulting in a "disciplined group" for any length of time? Not a chance in the world. It results in a kind of fascinating Anarchy....and that's Mudcat. Trust me, I don't mean to be rude here, but you've got to have a reasonably thick skin now on Mudcat......and I know, I know, it wasn't as neccessary, back a few years ago. But a few years ago, FAR fewer people even KNEW about Mudcat....and now...I meet Catters at EVERY GIG I PLAY....plus I constantly talk to people who say they READ IT. So this may not be what you want to hear from one of the "old timers", but "Change cannot be stopped", not by Joe Offer, Mario, Art, etc...or by you or me. If you want absolute proof of this, read ANY thread about a Jam session without hard and fast rules. The music becomes more and more general, and eventually the originals leave (usually in a huff) and start another one. Besides TWO knowledgeable people in a thread are better than NO discussion at all....and maybe it's YOU that has to keep re-freshing that thread so that it DOESN'T get buried. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rick Fielding Date: 26 Nov 02 - 12:08 AM Jeezus Murphy! I left out Masato as one of the "Newbies" who's a dynamite Catter......he's gotta be worth about a hundred idiotic threads. However.....lemme say one more thing. When I started writing my two cents worth, there were about 17 posts and now there's over twenty five........still no flamers, right? You ain't alone in your concerns, so don't complain, contribute. (I'm smiling when I say this by the way) Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 12:31 AM Rick - I don't know how it goes with "web-friends"...but with dear face-to-face friends...we have common "spats."
I cherish - your's and mine's - ancient history - discussiion of the 1,4,5 aka I,IV,V and the permutations of augmented and diminished....I am sad that the honorable Mr. BSeed (who I now also consider a MC"friend" and sincerely miss) was caught between our dueling styles.
I have LEARNED far MORE from the MC than I have ever given back...it has led me into exploring new instruments (home-made) new styles, (blues progressions) new "friends" (I'm terrified to meet most - face to face) and new pedagogical approaches.
In short, my life and music has been enriched through the DT/MC.
IGGY - You have, a straight forward approach.... and have attacked what I attempted through vitrol and surreptuous violence....in retrospect......perhaps the Max way is best....
Leave them alone and they'll go home...wagging their tales behind them.
On the other hand....can't there be a "little Irish type snug in the corner of the cafe" for those of us who desire a more academic discussion ... something a little more on a blue note?"
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Amos Date: 26 Nov 02 - 01:07 AM Gargoyle, that's the best post I have seen you write. A |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Mark Clark Date: 26 Nov 02 - 01:32 AM iggy, Add me to the list of folks who doesn't see your thread as a flame. I started lurking here in ’97 and began posting in April of ’98 but somehow never thought of myself as a Mudcat “oldtimer.” I don't get upset about the non-music threads because, for the most part, I never read them. I don't use the BS filter, I just read the thread titles. If they look suspicious or make no sense, I never open them. I know that if any of them actually has useful content I'll see it someday when I'm doing a search that pulls it up. Besides the DT, there is an enormous amount of musical information, history, folklore and songs here. The value of the actual information in these threads is inestimable. I try to see myself as just trying to help make that archive as useful a resource as we as a group can make it. I get sucked in once in a while, mostly on days when I've forgotten Dirty Harry's wonderful line “Opinions are like assholes… everybody's got one.” Mostly I try to remind myself that, even though my opinions are always well-reasoned and insightful <g>, most folks who post their opinions just like seeing them displayed somewhere, they really aren't going to read much less consider mine. Still, were I jamming with friends we'd still be inserting non-musical banter between songs. If we like someone's music, we don't just leave it at that, we often want to know more about that person. What experience has brought the performer to this point in his ability to select and perform folk material? What process brought the performer to this particular place and time. What other aspects of this individual might I find worthwhile? How am I to respond to the sense of community? I think these are some of the same questions that prompt many of the BS threads and off-topic discussions. And even though I don't join in very much of the chit-chat, I still hope, one day, to be able to join many of the folks here face-to-face so we can play music and BS in real time and 3-D. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: katlaughing Date: 26 Nov 02 - 02:05 AM It is cyclical, but this is, imo, one of the best discussions of this type we've ever had about it. Thanks, iggy. It has been getting thick around here. Joe, thanks for pointing out the Song Origins thread. I am really proud of what George Seto, Dicho, and all of the others who contributed to that have done. It was my pleasure to compile it all and I love the way Jeff has it set up now. It is so easy to use. For some really good music related threads which haven't received much attention, please see Behind a Thanksgiving Ode; Song Title Index Resource; and, Hellhounds on my trail in which Masato scores again, answering a query from 1999! I do miss the story writing talents of several Mudcatters including PeterT, LeeJ, and JenEllen. kat |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: katlaughing Date: 26 Nov 02 - 02:11 AM Forgot to mention this one which has fallen off: any songs about Cannonball Baker?. My dad would like to know. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: KingBrilliant Date: 26 Nov 02 - 05:53 AM Its still worth looking for the gem threads - but it ain't what it was.... Having said that, there are some people here that I really like - and some that I hugely respect. I'd prefer more music and much much less BS - but since I'm not the boss then I'll have to take the rough with the smooth. Kris |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: mooman Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:16 AM Yes there is way too much BS at the moment and I tend to agree with much of what Mickus Maximus has said. Like Gargoyle, I have learnt a huge amount from the Mudcat and have been in the happy position of having met many dozens of Mudcatters in real life. I hope that, on occasion, I have been able to contribute also a little of value. In fact I'd like to do a "Bill Sables" and meet many more perhaps on the USA/Canada side of the pond. I've been guilty myself of posting to the odd BS I should have ignored but, all in all, I think Max, Joe and Jeff run a great site here and, all things considered, I think we do quite well. Best to all, mooman |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: greg stephens Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:21 AM Well I'm a newbie. I guess I come into both categories, I do plenty of BShitting(though I try to keep it in the area of vaguely folk-related topics...cultural customs, place name etymology, that sort of thing). i actually dont mind the proliferation of "what has Andorra done for us" stuff...it gives a very interesting perspective on what people think of foreign countries. I also dont mind a lot of the Hull stuff, it gives a very accurate portrait of how the folk-scene ticks in one small area of the world. Though it would obviously become impossible to cope with if the inhabitants of evry other town in the world did it as well! But as well as BShitting, I've contributed to a million music threads, and have managed to answer quite a lot questions, even though I havent got a computer and cant do clickies. So to an oldtimer I am probably 50/50 between "one of those people who are destroying Mudcat" and "someone making an intelligent contribution to Mudcat's original purpose". In fact, probably just like everyone else. And on a personal level, I would say, as I have often done, I deeply admire the scholarship of the likes of Masato and Malcolm Douglas, but I'm equally grateful for the wisdom of of the McGraths and Amos's, and the humour of the John from Hull9. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Banjer Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:37 AM I've been around for a fwe years and just the fact that one can be considered an 'Old Timer' means that they have the facilities needed to survive all the past flame wars and BS that has gone on. I think the reason I have survived is because I believe that variety is the spice of life. There have been times that I have just wanted to rip the 'Cat of my Favorites list, but someting just keeps drawing me. Like has already been mentioned, this is a very cyclical atmosphere. As long as one understands and can tolerate it, there shouldn't be any problem. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Ritchie Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:28 AM Once a boy always a boy .... every time I come on to Mudcat it's like the first time ... it's like waiting for the release of your favourite artistes new record ...what will be there ? will I like it ? lot's of times I look at the names of the repliers (rather like session men) if I like the look of or recognise some good ones then I carry on. Just to 'bummer it up a bit' I'm listening to Chris Rea's new release 'stony Road' for the third time ...the first and second time it was 'mmm ?? not sure' now...it's like the Mudcat... it's getting better rather like this thread, more blues than folk....take that anyway you want. love to all and thank you. Ritchie |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: KingBrilliant Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:40 AM And what is going on with the new "discuss folk here" and "discuss blues here" type threads? Isn't that what the whole site is supposed to be? Are they meant to be satirical or what? (I think I must be missing the point somewhere). |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:43 AM A few days ago, I posted a snotty-assed comment to one of the "What Have" threads and then came back and explained myself, becausw the guy who started that thread, BWL (Bruce) was doing something which was frankly in the tradition of the 'Cat. Here's the second post: Subject: RE: BS: What has ______ done for us? From: catspaw49 - PM Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:26 PM I don't straddle possums Bruce......I blow up their ass. Just ask Cleigh O'Possum!!! And don't think twice about this thread as it's in the best tradition of the 'Cat. The place is quite cyclical and we really get lost in these inane threads every once in awhile where one or two is entertaining but then they proliferate into the most simpleass shit in the world. Eventually someone comes along with a topper (like this one) which ends it for awhile. About 4 years ago we were going through a bunch of things which started, "What Does a Mudcatter___________" or "What Kind of ________Does a Mudcatter Use." Like this last batch, at first, a few were cute, but pretty soon we're down to asking about deodorant. With that one, Art Thieme had had it with them and started one called "What Kind of Condom Does a Mudcatter Use" as a topper to the whole thing. Well it ended the others, but it became a wildly succesful thread, much to Art's chagrin....so we never let him forget it. Yeah, this one is in the best traditions of Mudcat......... So yeah, as I've often said it's cyclical, which most agree with on this thread. I have noticed too though that I respond far less than I used to do. Like Amos alluded to above, sometimes the BS has lately become just too dumbass, even for me. When the BS filter started I think it was almost like a license to some to get reall stupid. The arguments used to be BS versus Music, but now it seems more like BS versus inane drivel. But then again, so what? Even this shall pass I think. We used to have some fun writing projects in the tavern threads and the like and though many of us loved them, I know they were a pain in the ass to many others. Jerry Rasmussen.....I'm sorry if I have ever been one to say "we already talked about ____" as that has never been my intent. Often, and especially on instrument and music threads, I have said most of what little I have to say before, often several times, so I try to link back old threads. Never let that stifle new conversation, it's just an explanation as to why I sometimes am bored with the place.....because it IS cyclical in ALL elements, not just BS. Good topic here Iggy, and a well reasoned discussion. try to hang, it will change and go around again, hopefully at a higher level, but that's up to us. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:49 AM Hell, I remember when Garg, in his own inimitable style, used to post stuff that good all the time. He was the resident curmudgeon, and very knowledgeable. Great post, Garg. Mark Clark hits it spot on. I agree MOST of the time with his comments (hahaha....you know where we disagree, Mark) and it is folks like him that have kept me coming back over the years. And, of course, my partnership in Patterson, Swan, Fielding and Lane, Layabouts at Large and for hire. Oh......and being half of the fabled Beef Brothers. The wheel turns........... Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rapparee Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:53 AM I'm a true newbie here, very much so, having been around less than a month. I found the 'Cat when I was looking for lyrics; I posted a request and voila! I was helped. I think that the first BS I posted to was "10 Obscure Facts...," which was interesting. I then posted a verse or two from "I was born about 10,000 years ago" to the thread about "10 untrue facts...," and was surprised that no one caught it. I have found the people here to be decent, caring, knowledgable sorts and I look forward to discovering them in person. Mike |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:02 AM I'm with most of the above, particularly Greg, who I think started posting about the same time as me. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a little BS, other times not, and I can run my own filtering system as to what kind of BS I read, but the real richness of The Mudcat lies in the music threads and the general helpfulness of the folks round here. Having said that, I'd take exception to Joe's reference to the PEL debate as 'narcissistic'. As you've made plain elsewhere, Joe, you don't understand the problem. Those of us who live and make music in England, particularly in pubs, do. Clearly The Mudcat is a vital centre for the dissemination of relevant information to musicians and dancers in this country, and the PEL debate should not have been dragged into a discussion about BS. That's my thruppence ha'penny. BJ |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:09 AM Bullfrog, that's a good point. I think the PEL threads have been excellent examples of other things Mudcat can do. Although they don't affect us here, I have read them with interest and made the occasional comment or asked a question or two. That stuff is definitely not BS! KRIS (KB)--- Those threads you mention I think are John from Hull's way of trying to keep the heat off about the proliferation of Hull threads, A lot of folks have bitched at him and the threads and I think he might be just saying, "Okay, you want to talk about whatever, then start a thread on it." I dunno'....At first look, I thought they were stupid too, but I think he's trying to make a point perhaps......or maybe they are just stupid! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: MMario Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:13 AM It's a little wierd to be considered an "oldtimer" - In many ways I still feel like one of the new kids in the neighborhood. I am a musical ignoramus - believe me - with a cumpulsion to sing - and a job which ties me to a phone and computer - mostly time spent in "hurry up and wait"-ing...which means I do have time to search, and post, and be "present" here a lot. But I have few to no resources OUTSIDE of the web - which means if the website I find something on does not attibute a source - I don't have a source. Masato, Malcolm Douglas, Joe and others (Thanks Guys!) follow me around and correct me, attribute sources where they can identify them, etc. All those tunes I post on the Great Tune Hunt - 2002 ? Most of them contributed by others - some (very few) located by me. All I really do is track them. There are lots of little "projects" that can be done that way...which reduce the "BS" content. Not that I don't like to post a parody to a Tune Challenge! or suck down a few virtual drinks in a MudCat Tavern thread - or laugh at the antics of Reg, Reg, Reg, Paw and Cletus! IMHO I think that part of the reason the mudcat is a "live" site is that the BS keeps a presence here - so people know this is a site that is visited often. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: greg stephens Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM There have been around 100 purely musical postings in the last 3 hours, I should say. That cant be bad. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: DADGBE Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:03 AM I like to have both available even though the BS can get tedious when it obscures the music. At times it's fun to participate in a party but music stuff is what I'm after most times so the rest often gets passed by. Lately the scales seem tipped towards the BS but music postings still get a fair shake. Since folk songs are about anything folk are interested in singing about, some mighty good songs have come from lowly beginnings. I guess BS is in the eye (nose?) of the beholder. BS isn't a troubling for me as flaming, though. My very first posting on the 'cat recieved a royal flaming. As a result I'm wary of offering my neck to be chopped. Since that experience I often lurk among the threads without participating. Its thoughtful threads like this that make it wonderful. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: JedMarum Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:26 AM so how many roads must a man walk down? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:34 AM Well, shon, (puts in teeth, adjusts wig, checks colostomy bag & fires up wheelchair) this "old timer" knows diddley squat about music so I can only contribute to "BS" threads. I've enjoyed a lot of the humour and creative writing here as well as the musical information & lyrics. OK, we can flog some things to death, the Hull and Punch jokes are probably OTT at the moment but, I've been guilty of harping on too long on other things in the past. The answer (as always) is ignore what doesn't please and enjoy what does. It is NOT compulsory to read every thread or agree with every contributor. I stay out of politics, religion and flame wars threads so it takes me much less time to check the threads - now I'm on pension it saves me money! RtS (and I haven't mentioned Lonnie Donegan in this thread) |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Sir Roger de Beverley Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:37 AM Yes, I agree that there is a lot of "silly" posting about on a number of threads. However, a lot of the Punch the Horse and Hull/Beverley threads have been started with the initial aim of pubicising a live music event. If you cast your minds back to last Spring/Summer when we ran endless PVFF threads to publicise our "let's do the show right here" folk festival in Beverley. That resulted in one of the best attended and most open festivals for many a year. The Hull/Beverley area is now one of the most vibrant folk environments around with sessions and booked acts on every night of the week. Most of this has arisen through the womdeful medium of Mudcat and sometimes you just have to post something to a thread to get it back to the top of the list and into peoples eyeline again. It worked for me. Roger |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Geoff the Duck Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:50 AM Like many of you I am currently fed up to the gills with having to wade past the What Has **** ever done threads. I enjoy witty and informative BS threads, and also some of the silly ones. Recently I have been finding at least a couple of serious music threads of interest to me each day. Many worthy musical topics are not in areas where I have an interest, so I do not have anything useful contribute to them. A moderate amount of BS gives me something to read when I cannot find a musical thread of interest to me. I am currently listening to some old obscure recordings after reading this thread The Obscure Music Hour. John from Hull opened a pandora's box by being enthusiastic about Hull and the performers to be found there. Unfortunately what started as John being enthusiastic (and usually inebrated when using his internet TV following a long night working) has led to a bunch of others just taking the piss out of him, which I personally find unfair. With a bit of luck they will get bored with it and give us a rest, but until they do I will just have to skip past them. Quack! Geoff the Duck. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Jim Dixon Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:52 AM Maybe I haven't been around long enough to be considered an old-timer (Neither has Masato, and look how much he contributes!) but I'll throw in my opinion anyway. Looking into Mudcat these days is kind of like picking up your favorite old reference book in a public library -- something rare and irreplaceable -- and finding that a bunch of high school kids have been using the book to pass notes to each other, and scribbled all over the margins. My first thought was, how dare they? My second thought was, why did they pick this place? Why don't they go somewhere else? My third thought was, if I leave a polite and well-reasoned note asking them to behave themselves, or go away, maybe they will. (But you know the result.) They might try arguing with you a bit, but the bottom line is, they won't go away because you can't make them go away, they are having too much fun, and they care a lot more about each other's opinions than they care about yours. In short, I have given up trying to change Mudcat. It is a source of profound wisdom as well as puerile blather. It's annoying to have to sort out one from the other, but that's what I do, on a daily basis. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:55 AM Mudcat has its ups and downs, but mostly is great. It's a community, and it works very well as one. Music threads often don't last too long...the last one I launched got exactly ONE response, while a thread about dead parrots or something like that is likely to draw 20 or more! Now if all those who bemoan the lack of "music" threads would actually read them and POST to them, that wouldn't happen, would it? Any time someone has a music question, though, it is usually answered very effectively, so as far as I can see Mudcat is doing just fine. - LH |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: artbrooks Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:18 AM Oldtimers? I'm don't know exactly what the definition is, but I've been participating in Mudcat discussions for almost two years, and they've been an active two years! Anyway, iggy says I know you've made friends here and you don't want to rock the boat but are you happy with the way Mudcat currently is? Are you comfortable enough to come in under the name you normally post with and give your opinion? To answer the second question first, the only time I don't post with my own name is on things like the Secret Santa threads, where anonymity is the rule...and my name is my real name, and anyone who wants to talk to me live can look me up in the Albuquerque phone book. To answer the important part, if I ruled the world, the Mudcat would probably be a bit different, but luckily for the world I don't. There is a lot of nonsense going on right now, but, as has been said, that comes and goes. There are also at least 60 music threads, and a couple of dozen "who is playing where" and "check out my new CD" threads, and those things are also part of what I'd consider the core purpose of Mudcat. I'd also like the "what has XXX done for us" threads to go away, but that fact that people keep posting to them makes it seem that some Mudcatters enjoy them. Remember, this place has evolved into an on-line community, and not everyone has the same tastes. I think that Joe and his minions do a good job in eliminating threads that serve no purpose than to rattle peoples' cages...and every community needs a police force. Iggy, you say that I've actually been around Mudcat for quite a while and was an active member. I don't know that Max has any kind of exclusion policy...feel free to rejoin and participate as yourself rather than as an anonymous GUEST. I certainly don't pretend to speak for all my friends and neighbors, but I do think it's safe to say we'd be glad to have you. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: katlaughing Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:22 AM I saw Hull on Changing Rooms the other night. It's everywhere!*bg* |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:33 AM Iggy, while most everyone in this thread claims to empathisize with you, the fact of the matter is, people have resigned themselves to the fact that this forum isn't ever going to go back to what it once was. As Justa Picker wisely noted: "One of the most interesting and telling new features in the upgraded version of Mudcat, are not the improved bells and whistles but rather, the conspicuoulsly absent words of "A Magazine Dedicated To Folk and Blues Music" at the top of the page." Why is that? First and foremost, because Max decided this wouldn't be a moderated forum. Having a moderated forum is the only way to prevent the circumstances Jim Dixon describes above (with an apropos analogy) from taking over this discussion forum. Mudcat is unique in this regard. There is a core group of current members (which grows larger all the time) who use this site primarily (and for some exclusively) for social contact with their online Mudcat friends, and not as a treasured music site. Now, that wouldn't be a bad thing at all, if they could keep their socializing in the PMs, rather than dominating the forum, but they refuse to self-police themselves in this regard, to the disgust of most of those who use this site primarily for it's great music resources. Those of us with experience online in other folk music forums know that Mudcat is unique in this regard also--self policing doesn't work here, as it does in most other folk music discussion forums. I believe the reason why self-policing doesn't work here is due to the nature of members this particular site attracts nowadays, which is people such as those described in Jim Dixon's post. The current membership using the forum for their personal online social scene are much different types of people than were those who originally contributed the "treasures" now found in the DT and old forum threads, who have mostly left the forum. But those who left the forum did so for reasons we will never know, because they rarely have come back to tell anyone why they left. So I don't think it should be automatically assumed that it is because of off-topic BS posting, even though I'm guessing it probably is some of that, in combination with the types of people who are now the "typical" poster to Mudcat being different "folk", along with the flame wars, which will always drive some people away who refuse to put up with it. Personally, I find the Hull threads much more tolerable than the vulgarity exhibited in the Cleigh O'Possum threads, or the adolescent male Shatner threads. As others here have noted, there once was a fairly high (for online forums) level of writing that once was the norm here in the music threads, the collaborative writing threads, and the political threads (especially the latter, when we had articulate posters who were very knowledgeable of the political wing of the folk revival). My view as an old timer who has never become a member (I go back to pre-membership days) is that quality is what initially attraced the current members, who pretty much ran the forum into the ground with a lot of potty humor and teenage level idiotic banter (like I said, Jim Dixon's analogy is dead on) that is now what we have today. The censorship level on this site has become very disturbing, particularly the way it is being used to protect members from so-called "personal attacks", and prevent Mudcat and Max from being criticized. Joe regularly deletes threads (arbitrarily and capriciously, in my opinion) where he fears either the subject matter (the request for a rap song thread that was recently deleted is a good example), or the one that the original poster of this thread also started, which Joe deleted (see his reasons for censoring that thread which he gives above). But, as others have noted also, there are still a very few people making high quality music contributions to the site. But not very many--a handful at most. Mostly what this site has become is a chat forum for people who want an anarchic forum as a personal social playground--a place to meet online friends and do whatever they want, whenever they want, the rest of you be damned. The fact that the original purpose of this site was to provide a forum for people to discuss blues and folk music seems to be a distraction, more than an attraction to many newcomers and old timers. What I have learned to do is use the site's music resources, contribute to them when I can, answer music questions I have an answer to (which isn't necessarily the right answer), and contribute to the BS threads I have an interest in, which isn't most of them. I don't filter either, as I value my own judgment as to what is good for me to see, rather than a filter's. But then, spam hasn't ever bothered me much, even in my email accounts. I just delete without reading. Same applies to any online discussion forum--you read what you want, ignore the rest. That is in no way unique to Mudcat. To think that things will change for the better is pretty delusional at this point, IMO. Max has made it clear he will tolerate anything (except criticism of him, which he deletes fairly routinely) that Joe doesn't censor here. He will not invest the time and effort to moderate the forum. Now, many of us would much prefer a moderated Mudcat to what we've got. Moderation of open forums (a direction many formerly unmoderated sites have gone, in order to preserve the value of the site, and keep it out of the hands of those who would take it over to use as their own personal playground--which happens a lot online) is one very good solution to the problems you see routinely here in Mudcat, that drive so many good contributors away. But it is not to be. So now, you get what you get here. Some silliness is cyclical, in any online forum. Most of it here isn't, and we see more and more of it all the time. Which is why many posters/lurkers come and go here, and eventually spend much more time gone than present over time. This is the great and powerful "improved" Mudcat. The techie bells and whistles make it more convenient for those of us who want to use the music resources here. But the forum? Well, I wouldn't say this it is "greatly improved" by the BS filter, would you? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,bbc at work Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:54 AM Hi, iggy, Put me down as one who doesn't like the amount or quality(?) of the current BS. Some BS is fun & worth reading; it contributes to community & information. Some, in my opinion, is just a waste of space & time. What really offends me are the divisive threads, be they political, religious, racial, etc. It seems to me that that is not a good use of the Internet. Having said all of that, I still visit the Mudcat on a daily basis. I've gained information, insights, & many friends from it & I find that I'm unwilling to forego any of the above. I'd like it better, though, if Mudcat was a place that Art & others didn't need to wade through so much crap to get to the good stuff! most sincerely, bbc |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 12:04 PM An idea I meant to mention in my above post: a prefix for announcements. That might have lessened some of the rancor over the Hull stuff from the gitgo. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 12:06 PM And I find Joe's comment re: PEL to be indicative of what I think is a serious problem with having Joe as the Mudcat policeman and censor. I don't think he is up to the job. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,iggy folk Date: 26 Nov 02 - 01:52 PM My goodness you could knock me over with a feather at the moment. I expected to find my little whine buried underneath a dozen 'what have **** ever done for us' threads. At the least I thought a couple of quick one liners saying 'not another mudcat complaint thread' would cast me as the latest villain, and that would discourage any oldtimers from breaking ranks. Thank you for taking my concerns seriously, and I'm really not normally a troublemaker. I simply had reached a point where the silliness and copycat idiocy was making me more irritable than normal. I'll probably add some more to this thread if it continues to be of interest to anyone but at the moment I really *am* astounded that so many people have responded with interest rather than anger. There are a couple of things that have gotten twisted though that I should clear up. Number one, my current Guest status is the result of a relationship upheaval and not Mudcat's doing. At the moment it's cybercafes during lunch and friend's places when I want to Mudcat but hopefully in the near future I'll have my own shit back together again. I may go back to my previous handle or come up with something new, but until them I'll be iggy. The other thing I want to clear up is that GUEST of 11;33, I hold you and your kind in complete contempt and we have nothing in common. Yes you are more articulate than I am but you don't care about this forum or the people who love it. Why? Not because of your Guest status, but because you deliberately allow the rest of us to have to speculate on whether you are one person or a dozen. Are you the same person who watches with glee while people argue about the Middle East in threads that *you* have started simply to cause trouble? Also you lie. You lie that Max or Joe can't take criticism. What a lot of shit. They take it all the time. I've been around folk people all my life (does anyone know the term 'red diaper baby') and *you* GUEST are not a folk person. iggy ** still in a bit of shock. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 02:18 PM You can believe whatever you want to Iggy, but no, I don't contribute to the Middle East threads. You are right that I am contemptuous of a lot of people here. I am also cynical and bitter about this place, after watching it go from it's glory days to what it is now. I don't like most of the current members, and I don't think Max has done well by the place, letting the forum go to hell like it has. I am contemptuous toward many members of the Mudcat members because, as I see it, they are the problem. The glory days of Mudcat were when the music was at the center of the forum discussions, and the quality of the non-music discussions supported that, and contributed to it in meaningful ways that never happens here anymore. Not rarely happens--never happens. The BS that is here is now independent of the music. Totally disconnected from it. The absolute worst thing for those of us who go back in time further than most of the current crop of "old time" members to the pre-membership days, is that it is the current Mudcat "mainstream" that is so enamoured with itself and it's social club, it makes even coming here for the music so bloody hard. Yet some of us will continue to keep coming for the music resources here, until the site is gone. I decided that I can't beat them, I won't join them, but I will continue to use the forum in a way that works for me, which includes speaking my mind about the membership, and not suffering all the fools that currently inhabit the place. I was here long before they were, and don't feel I need to be driven into exile. I co-exist, much to the disgust of those who would just as soon see me thrown out the door by Max. I'm guessing that since the BS filters haven't helped much, that it's only a matter of time until this forum sinks finally down into the ooze of so many other once fine websites, and becomes nothing but a flame and fart forum for adults with arrested development issues, and isn't even about the music anymore. Then I suppose those of us interested in the resource of the DT and old forum threads will just come here, use the search engines, and leave without checking the forum at all, leaving the place a free for all for the flame and fart boys. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: MMario Date: 26 Nov 02 - 02:32 PM I have been hearing the above since the day I started coming here. Almost word for word. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Fortunato Date: 26 Nov 02 - 02:59 PM iggyfolk. I remember you from some time ago. Good to see you posting. Don't stay away so long. And if you don't like the threads some days, just ignore them. You can't hold on, it's changing all the time like everything else. cheers and best regards, chance. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Nov 02 - 04:13 PM iggy, since you are viewing the thread list as a guest, you are not able to use the automatic BS filter to limit the list to the music threads (plus a few non-music threads that slip through the filter till they are retitled). I use that filter, and see very little BS, unless I reset it when time permits a chance to see what's new in the BS department. I might trace and participate in one or two non-music threads, chosen with soem care, but as a rule I am either too busy with music IRL or in threads to bother. It's a good thing to try out before throwing the catfish out with the muddy water. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 04:38 PM Trust 'Praise' to entirely miss the point... |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Jeri Date: 26 Nov 02 - 04:46 PM No GUEST - Susan got the point dead on. We can't make people behave the way we want. The ones who might agree to "self police" aren't a factor. It's all the rest of them, current and not yet here. You have no control over anyone but yourself. If you want the BS to go away, use the filter to keep yourself from seeing it. You can use A BS filter if your a GUEST. Just type "BS:" and check the "Filter out" box. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 05:30 PM The shit quality BS has dragged the quality of the music threads dow with them. First the BSers and flamers drove many of the quality contributors to Mudcat away. Some of the people the BS didn't drive away, were actually hounded out of the forum by the current membership club. Now there is a forbidden topic here in the forum if there was one. And nowadays, if you dare mention names criticizing specific people who engaged in the tarring and feathering, your post gets deleted by the Mudcat censor. In fact, bring up any of that history, and you are most likely to find your post, if not the entire thread, gone by morning. The name Mudcat Flame and Fart Forum seems to be a shoe that fits. Imagine my surprise that those current members be complained about in this thread, don't like to hear the legitimate criticism being levelled at them and their little social club. Any idiot can come into the forum, and quickly figure out which people are the biggest problems around here. They are as insufferably obnoxious here as I am sure they are in 3D life. Like Jim Dixon says, they behave badly, because they know they can get away with it. Just like road ragers do. There is no shortage of information superhighway road ragers currently terrorizing Mudcat. Most of them, almost without exception, are members. Members, no matter how badly they continually behave, never get publicly criticized for their behavior here. That is one of several fatal flaws in the membership/guest system at Mudcat. Lots of assholes have become members, and guests made the convenient scapegoat for their behavior when member behavior gets out of hand. But the us vs them mentalite rules, when you are working from a consensus operating according to the lowest common denominator for a bunch of internet low lifes. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,Ed Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:32 PM If you're fed up with BS and want to talk about folk music, you might try folkinfo.org. It's a very young site, but if you like quality, I'd recommend it. Ed |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:42 PM One more thing--to claim that the same complaints have always existed at Mudcat is a red herring, used to deflect legitimate criticism. It cannot be "proved" that the quality of posting on Mudcat has declined. The reason for that is because those who are here now think the standard is at the very least, good enough, and to many, it's wonderful. However, so many of the people who used to make up the mainstream in the forum no longer post, that they are no longer here to compare what it was, to what it has become. If you consider yourself part of the Mudcat membership mainstream, you either love it and are here daily, like it well enough to come often, or tolerate it in measured doses. Those three groups of people will likely evaluate the quality of discussions in the forum differently. Anyone who comes here today will have to resign themselves to the way it is now, just as they would in any online forums where the site maintainer/owner isn't willing to allow change desired by the participants. Some of us know of site maintainers/owners who were open to suggestions for change, and have actually seen discussion forums change for the better once they take root. But despite the brief accolades here for the new bells and whistles, I haven't ever seen any threads commenting upon how much better people think the forum has become in the last couple of years. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:02 PM Guest Ed, the owner of the site you link to is one of those former Mudcat members I mention who have left. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:20 PM Well, I have to say that the PEL issue is a noble cause, it really is. I have studied it, although I didn't learn much from all the verbiage posted here - the logical basis of the cause is lost in a sea of words. I count at least fifty threads on the issue. Many of those threads have lengthy messages that have been repeat-posted in two, three, or more threads. I have not deleted a single message or thread in this morass, but I am appalled by it. It is a very worthy issue, but I think it could be better served by logic - not logorrhea. Birthdays are a noble cause, too. Happy birthday to everyone who has a birthday in the next five years. These are my personal opinions. I have a right to express my opinion, just like everyone else has. I don't delete threads because I think they're narcissistic or because I think they're overdoing things - much as I hate those types of threads. I DO delete messages and threads that look like they're posted solely to cause trouble. The nigger/bitch rap song request seemed to be one of those. I notice our trolls are attempting to take over this thread, too. Well...that's unfair - all the unnamed guests in this thread are the same person. - I count at least seven messages from that person in this thread, and seven in the deleted "Dear Mudcatters" Thread, and fourteen or more in the one about spitting on Vietnam veterans. Interestingly, this person has very few music posts...and actually very few posts that have been deleted. Maybe it's time for us to leave this thread, so the trolls can talk to themselves in privacy.... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:18 PM Well said Joe. For what it's worth I reckon Joe is right about the PEL stuff, yes it's an issue relevant to UK resident folkies, and should be discussed here, but do we really need dozens of threads about it? I have been asked recently by a few local catters to post a list of the folk sessions in Hull & surrounding areas, this would serve 2 purposes, firstly it would help people visiting the city decide where to go, and secondly it would reduce the amount of "Hull" threads here if a comprehensive list was posted in one place. At the time I decided against posting such a list because of the confusion over PEL matters, [I am not sure which pubs hold a current music licence), and would not like to get those without one into trouble by promoting an "illegal" session. I decided to read the PEL threads to learn the current situation, but found that there were that many, and that many were linked to each other that it would probably take hours to read them all, and I have to say I am still not sure of the current situation! So with that in mind I took the liberty of discussing the matter with my local councillor, well actually Les from Hull's local councillor.As the area he is responsible for {Hull city centre) hosts a few sessions. He informs me that there is no problem with people holding folk sessions in Hull, whilst the council do employ a licensing officer, they have sensibly decided to concentrate their efforts on problems of disorder in the night clubs, where unfortanetely drug abuse/dealing sometimes takes place, they work in close conjunction with the local police and if problems are found they will enforce the relavnt laws and close the venue down, 3 city centre nightclubs have been closed for drug dealing/disorder problems in recent years. I feel it is worth noting that whilst there are many thousands of pubs in the UK, according to the "Killed by the PEL" thread very few of them, {less than ten!) have had any serious problems. I did consider sending this in a PM to Joe, but felt that people should be aware that there is no problem in Hull, and that any visiting music lovers will find plenty of places to sing/play and will recieve a warm welcome. John |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:39 PM Ah Joe, you betray yourself. You just said: "all the unnamed guests in this thread are the same person. - I count at least seven messages from that person in this thread, and seven in the deleted "Dear Mudcatters" Thread, and fourteen or more in the one about spitting on Vietnam veterans. Interestingly, this person has very few music posts...and actually very few posts that have been deleted." Now Joe, how do you know if all those posts came from the same poster? You recently claimed you had no way of finding out the IP address of any posters whether member or guest, because you yourself weren't privy to that information. Now you are claiming to have insider knowledge about the above posts, and where those posts to Mudcat originated from--AND decided to share the information with the entire forum, presumably because you were pissed off by guests posts critical of your performance. Which is it? Are you selectively tracking people's posts who dare to be critical of you and Mudcat or not? Are you or are you not deleting entire threads you have deemed offensive to your personal sensibilities? Sorry, all I'll say is that we know our troublemakers quite well - and you're one of them. It has nothing to do with whether you're critical of anybody. You're here because you get pleasure out of causing trouble and drawing attention to yourself. I'm here to make it difficult for you to do that. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: NicoleC Date: 26 Nov 02 - 10:01 PM Suggestion -- and I know this is one of those big re-write the Mucat ideas, so maybe it can just simmer on the back-burner until that day comes. A multi-threaded board might be more appropriate. The prefixes help, but sometimes newbies don't understand prefixes, and sometimes folk just ignore them. I wouldn't suggest dividing this up too much -- you can't really separate folk genres, but maybe something like: "Tavern" -- for the BS and chit chat "Tech Help" -- for the inevitable computer questions "Music Discussion" -- for the lyrics requests and research etc. But something that might help right now is for us to try and consolidate many of the threads. Sometimes there are a half a dozen political threads, when we really only need one, and it'd be nice for all the "Hull" or "PEL" threads to stick together. If we make an attempt to post to a relevant thread instead of starting a new one, that could help folks find the topics that interest them quicker. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Jeri Date: 26 Nov 02 - 10:49 PM GUEST, whether or not Joe has insider knowledge, you just acknowledged he was correct. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Ebbie Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:12 PM psst! John from Hull, have you been drinking? You sound way too sober. :) |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:17 PM I got in late, but I am getting drunkerr ny the minute, i hace nearly run out of bears! |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: momnopp Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:31 PM A measure of Mudcat's vitality and strength is its ability to withstand criticism and growth and change and remain fluid. In my experience, the people who come here in the first place have an interest in the music -- that's the glue that binds us initially. If it were a tennis site, presumably those who visited would share a passion for tennis. It just so happens that folks with a penchant for folk music and blues often share other sensibilities on many levels. So, we talk about everything and anything. And we have a "Hull" of a good time doing it :-) And as far as I'm concerned, the music is always there -- it just might not be the central topic of discussion at every moment. I prefer to open my heart and mind to more possibilities rather than limit my options. I would like it if "Guest" agreed with my points of view, but since s/he doesn't, I simply have someone else to learn from. Peace, love and Mudcat, JudyO |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Mudlark Date: 27 Nov 02 - 02:01 AM I have come late to this discussion, having not been at my computer all day. How ironic to dial up Mudcat seeking info on how to order 3 MC CD's and find this thread...what a weird juxtaposition. When I called Dick Greenhaus to place my order I thanked him for his efforts, and his response was..."Well, it's in a good cause." For all the BS threads that really *are* BS, for all the differences of opinion and complaints about the ratio of BS to music threads, still this forum, by dint of unstinting enthusiasm, cooperation, and endless volunteer efforts in time and money have produced this remarkable set of folk music CD's. In light of this astonishing achievement, I'd say that Mudcat Cafe is a thriving music forum, whether because of or in spite of silly BS threads. I am overwhelmed and overjoyed at the thought of being able to hear other Mudcatters. and benefit this forum at the same time...such win/win situations are not so common in this complex world. Thanks, iggy, for bringing up your concerns and thanks to all who have responded so thoughtfully. I live in a rural and fairly isolated location and for the past 2 years Mudcat has filled in a lot of musical blanks for me. True, change is inevitable, but if the above threads are any indication, the Mudcat Cafe still has much musical relavance to a lot of people, me included. Long may it flourish... and may all of us who rely on, use and cherish it continue to interact here with tolerance, wit and intelligence. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:29 AM Joe Offer sez: "Of course, I'm privy to information - what I said is that I had no plans to publicly reveal personal information about anyone. However, I think it's worthwhile for Mudcatters to know that most of our unnamed Guests in this thread and several others are one person - you." Well now Joe, is what you just did revealing personal information about me, or is it just revealing information about me selectively to make me look bad? I'd say it is the latter, since you didn't tell the readers of this thread which music threads I posted to yesterday too. So I guess that means that you are such a man of integrity, you are only going to reveal information about certain posters selectively, in an attempt to deflect crticism from yourself. Nice to see you doing so well at playing John Ashcroft for the Mudcat community, labelling me with the "T" word too. It seems to me this forum is now de facto moderated by Joe Offer, who has been extremely busy of late deleting threads, consolidating here, zapping posts which contain criticism of individual Mudcat members, and claiming they were "personal attacks". Not that the power is going to your head or anything. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:45 AM It also occurs to me that site owners and maintainers who feel themselves to be beyond the reach of the law themselves, often find they wind up entangled in a web of legal actions, when they overextend their reach. I'm sure that can't happen here, though. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:57 AM Anti-Napster fight takes aim at online anonymity By John Borland Staff Writer, CNET News.com May 31, 2000, 5:00 AM PT The fight over music piracy on the Web is developing a new front, as music industry executives and others trying to stem online song-swapping take aim at Internet anonymity. Stung by what they say is rampant copyright violation through music-sharing services like Napster and Gnutella, record industry executives are saying that too much privacy on the Net can be a bad thing. "We must restrict the anonymity behind which people hide to commit crimes," Edgar Bronfman Jr., chief executive of Universal Music Group parent Seagram, said last week. "As citizens, we have a right to privacy. We have no such right to anonymity." In a speech at the RealNetworks conference Friday, Bronfman called for "a standard that balances one's right to privacy with the need to restrict anonymity." The speech echoed last week's calls from an influential Democratic policy think tank to change copyright laws in a way that would also eliminate anonymity for people who wanted to use services such as Napster. The developments are horrifying free-speech advocates who say that anonymity is part of the underpinnings of free-speech protection on the Net. "If this wasn't some music company but was the Chinese government saying we need to restrict anonymity, everyone would recognize how dangerous this was," said David Sobel, general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information Council, a Washington, D.C.-based lobbying organization. The debate has been spurred most recently by the massive popularity of Napster and other services like it that allow thousands of people at a time to link their computers together and share their MP3 music collections. Record companies and individual artists have sued Napster, charging that the company is contributing to widespread copyright infringement. But if the lawsuits are designed in part to shut down Napster as a company, it's the individuals trading files through the service who the industry really wants to stop. To do that requires tracing them, say the copyright holders. This task isn't as difficult as popular Web mythology has made it out to be. Several tracking services already exist, such as NetPD and Media Enforcer, which allow artists to monitor who is swapping their songs online and gather the Web addresses and usernames of traders. Hard rock band Metallica and rapper Dr. Dre have already provided Napster with the usernames of hundreds of thousands of people they say traded their songs online and asked the software company to boot them from its service. Online privacy This kind of information could theoretically be traced to individuals using system logs of Internet service providers, in much the same way investigators track hackers and credit card thieves online. But new services such as Freenet and ZeroKnowledge are being developed that will make this job much more difficult, masking individual traces online and distributing content more widely around the Net. All of this is bad news for the idea of intellectual property online, critics say. "If users are anonymous, then rights holders will have no one to sue," said Rob Atkinson, technology director for the Public Policy Institute, a branch of the centrist Democratic Leadership Council. "Napster says it's not their fault, but they should be required to hand over the people whose fault it is." Atkinson's group made the first concrete anti-anonymity proposal last week, proposing that ISPs and other Net services be forced to collect information that personally identifies their subscribers or else be held responsible for those people's copyright violations. The record companies themselves haven't made any solid legislative proposals. A Seagram spokeswoman said Bronfman's comments were intended to start a debate on the issue rather than create specific policy suggestions. But privacy advocates are bracing for a fight. "We see (anonymity) coming under attack by both the government and the private sector," Sobel said. "If there's one issue I could identify as the most significant policy area in the coming years, I'd say it would be anonymity." |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 09:15 AM Not that Mudcat has had any copyright problems lately. And what happens legally when a private website which offers users anonymity to post, suddenly starts to selectively reveal information about an anonymous poster criticizing it's business in the online forum? Dunno, but here is some interesting information from GigaLaw.com about it: As employees were increasingly perceived as having been fired for their opinions and sometimes lost valuable benefits like bonuses ad stock options in the process, public interest groups, such as Public Citizen, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and the ACLU took notice of this trend and began raising First Amendment free speech concerns on behalf of these defendants, sometimes known as "John Doe" defendants because of their (temporary) anonymity. Simply put, they argued in cases brought around the country that people should be able to participate online without fear that someone who wishes to harass or embarrass them into silence can file a frivolous lawsuit to reveal their identity without just cause. With this direct assault on what had been a very successful and relatively quick method of silencing online critics, judges in different states have begun to shift their thinking and have responded increasingly favorably to arguments that online anonymous speech deserves Constitutional protection. So much so that, in a number of recent cases a noticeable trend has emerged, one which now has made it more difficult for plaintiffs to unmask anonymous posters on the Internet without showing their case has merit and without following procedural guidelines created by individual judges in an effort to give posters an opportunity to fight back under pseudonyms before losing their anonymity. Some state courts across the country have handed down even more wide-reaching protections against involuntary identity unmasking of individuals with information useful to cases where they are not parties and against liability for posting alleged defamatory statements made by others. Looking at a few illustrations shows the dramatic turnaround that is currently underway on this issue and points to some principles that plaintiffs and posters alike can look to in trying to evaluate their rights in this fast-moving area. Emerging Legal Tests for Disclosing Identity It's Getting Harder to Unmask Defendants The emerging trend embodied in several recent decisions in this controversial area shows that courts are clearly giving more weight to arguments that the First Amendment protects the right to speak anonymously on the Internet. In New Jersey, for example, in July 2001, a state appellate court - upheld a lower court ruling denying a subpoena to identify an online poster, in Dendrite International, Inc. v. John Doe No.3, et al. The appellate court in Dendrite took advantage of the opportunity to establish a four-pronged test that plaintiffs must meet to outweigh an anonymous defendant's constitutional privilege of anonymity. Applying standards previously laid down in a similar case decided in California, the New Jersey Court held that parties seeking discovery to unmask an anonymous poster must: identify the unknown party with sufficient specificity to allow the court to decide if it has jurisdiction over the party, identify all previous steps taken to locate the missing party and notify it of the lawsuit and the opportunity to object, establish by proof to the court's satisfaction that the plaintiff's suit could withstand a motion to dismiss, meaning that there must be a viable claim, make a showing justifying why the specific discovery requested is needed, and that the proposed recipients of the subpoena (such as ISPs) are both limited in number and reasonably calculated to produce the identities and whereabouts of the unknown defendant so legal process can be served on them. In similar fashion, in Pre-Paid Legal Services v. Sturtz, decided in August 2001, a Superior Court judge in Santa Clara County, California, quashed a subpoena issued to Yahoo by an Oklahoma-based legal services company that requested identities of anonymous posters after they had posted negative remarks about the company on a Yahoo message board devoted to discussions about the company. Similar to the standards reiterated in the Dendrite case, the judge in Pre-Paid Legal concluded that the posters' anonymity could not be breached by a subpoena absent a clear showing that specifically identified that relevant information about the anonymous poster is central to the claims of the party seeking the information, those claims are viable, and the party cannot acquire the information in another way. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 09:32 AM Are individuals users who post copyrighted information (from copyrighted songbooks, say) on the Internet liable for copyright infringement? Interesting idea, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: harpgirl Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:40 AM you know Joe...this cat and mouse game (it's actually "cops and robbers" a common antisocial/self-righteous moralist game) will go on indefinitely unless you simply reveal this person so we all know who it is, by email address or something. We have no obligation to keep anyone anonymous and this would stop the game this anti-social person is playing. If you don't do this I might assume the secondary gain from the game is more reinforcing than stopping it! Also, the possibility of identifying anyone who is anonymously obnoxious stops the game once and for all. So just do it...hg |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Amos Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:52 AM Guest-me-lass: You are an admirable proponent, although I am not sure of what. You are articulate and persistant and have a good command of rhetoric. Surely, there are missions and visions far more worthwhile in the world to use your skills toward? A firefight with Joe Offer and the Mudcat Central Coordination COmmittee (or whatever you think of it as) is scarcely going to acheive much of value, regardless of rationalization for it. If I had any influence, I would ask you to spend your excellent talent in defeating the Bush dynasty or deflecting the creeping corrosion currently attacking our constitution. At least you would know that you served a good cause. This current engagement strikes me as problematic, even arguably harmful in the net scheme of things. THat's my 2 cents' worth FWIW. A |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Fortunato Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:08 AM Joe, this is off the point, but I want to note that you use the word "verbiage" appropriately, to describe verbose language. Too often people think it simply means 'words'. And thank you Joe Offer for the job you do here in providing difficult but necessary limits. Iggyfolk is disturbed by the trends here, and I understand that. Overarching and affecting these trends are the general decline in education, enlightenment, civility, language usage and morals and ethics I see in the societal environment surrounding the Mudcat. But as Donovan sang, "...try and catch the wind." We steer when we can. cheers, Chance |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Skipjack K8 Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:11 AM Cripes, you people put a lot of effort into the unchangeable. I climbed aboard Mudcat in late '99, and really embraced the ideal. I overdid it, and lost interest for a while, but missed the old place, and came back. I liked it then, and like it now. It is like a music pub to me, somewhere I drop in for a drink and a chat, with musicians, music lovers and accordion players, but being a pub, there's always several debates going on about general issues. There are always people here I love to meet, and a few arseholes, but heck, it's a pub. I am in the currently unfortunate position of being a Hullite (one of the first?) so I'm probably one of the arseholes to some. I see the Mudchat as a really good extension of the Mudcat ideal, but music rarely crops up in there. I can't believe anyone reads every thread, and the amount of genuine music debate is still central to the Forum, so I don't personally agree with iggy's position. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:23 AM But who is "iggy folk"? The first post I can find for anyone with the name "iggy" is here. Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm finding "I just discovered this place. This is *very* funny!" on 30 Oct 02 conflicts with the opening post in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:27 AM So much for the Mudcat membership's ability to suss out the sincere guest from the insincere, eh Guest 11:23? Oh what a tangled web we weave... |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 12:18 PM Hmmmm...so is the "troublemaker" the anonymous guest poster with a handle claiming to be sincere (and who is nice and polite), such as the exposed troll who started this thread? Or is it the anonymous guest poster who is often times critical in forum discussions of BS subjects, and at times is also critical of the forum itself, some of it's members, and the site owner & it's maintainers? Both, I'm sure many will say. But are both trolls? And if we unmask one, wouldn't it be great fun to unmask them all? And if we unmask them, will it stop the trolls, the critics, the "troublemakers"? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: katlaughing Date: 27 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM Who better to answer that than You, GUEST? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,iggy folk Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:07 PM Charming. Two surprises in two days. One good one bad. I'm afraid GUEST is too good for me. Short of revealing my social insurance number, I can be considered a troll as well. Yes, I had some worries about where this forum was going, and I expressed them. I tried to be polite and I really *did* think that it was silly threads that were the problem. In many ways I am new to the forum, since it's been almost a year since I looked in regularily with my now Ex. A lot of names had changed and there were definitely some new bells and whistles so I did feel a bit of a stranger. I'm hardly a stranger to the Ontario Song Circles though and have attended many concerts at 'Acoustic Harvest' over the years. So GUEST, I can now see that you're the one who has been allowed to send a lot of potentially good discussions into the tank. You win. I've probably been singing folk music for as long as you've been on the earth, but who cares, right? It isn't worth the hassle. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Amos Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:10 PM Well, Iggy -- all that is needed for evil to succeed is for good folks to remain silent, y'know. A |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: DougR Date: 27 Nov 02 - 01:59 PM Iggy, I don't know if I would be considered an "old timer" or not, but I found Mudcat about a year later than Rick so I suppose I'm close. I've seen and read similar threads to this one every since I came aboard. I think they serve a useful purpose, if for no other reason than getting the juices going. I have no problem with the number of BS threads, because I just don't open those that don't interest me. I enjoy reading the music threads, though I can contribute little to them. The only negative factor to me that has always been a part of the Mudcat, at least since I have been visiting, is the GUEST factor. The guest that is contributing so much garbage to this thread is an excellent example of what I mean. He/she jumps into the thread swinging. It matters not how long guest has been coming to the Mudcat, I suspect his/her contribution has always been about the same. Attack, attack, attack! As others have pointed out, guest gets his/her jollies from reading the replies resulting from the attacks. I think we will never learn not to reply to such posts. They are designed to inflame, and they do. Response is the natural thing to do. This particular guest is so full of him/herself, though, it's ridiculous. Talk about elitist. Ever heard of folk music referred to as elitist? Most folks refer to the music medium I was involved in for so many years as being the epitome of elitism ...classical music ...not folk music. I love the Mudcat. I have made some good friends since I have been here, and some of my posts have probably created some enemies because of my political views. I'll keep coming back, though, because I enjoy the atmosphere of this place. I couldn't get on the past couple of days, and missed the old place. DougR |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 27 Nov 02 - 02:08 PM This GUEST is the same one that causes trouble in many threads. S/he uses at least 7 handles that I can count, mostly as a woman, sometimes as a man. In this thread s/he shows what the true intent is, and that is to destroy. As I said of this nut before, s/he does not know how to handle sincere people. S/he is a typical ivory tower academic who speaks well of a cause, but never spends any actual time in the trenches. Probably should just ignore him/her. Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rick Fielding Date: 27 Nov 02 - 03:19 PM Hi Doug. At first I thought this thread was addressed to you PERSONALLY!! Then I realized the poster meant ALL the oldtimers. For what it's worth though, age may be a state of mind....but a couple of days ago I read a playlist from CIUT (the station where I do my Folk show) and I didn't know or recognize ONE friggin song from their "top forty alternative" playlist. Now THAT can really make you feel like an old timer! Iggy......thick skin. remember? Mudcat is Communists, Conservatives, Preachers, Atheists, helpful souls and socio-paths. It's people with highly defined double-lives, folks who are the DEFINITION of 'arrested development' (you'll find my picture under that term in the dictionary!) and others so mature and well adjusted, that they change their strings every three weeks, and own Oldsmobiles. I'm sure we've got disgruntled academic folkies who haven't cracked a smile in years, and cheerful helpful ones, who are the life of a party. As I said before, it ain't gonna be what it was, 'cause there's no wall around it, so try to hang in for a bit. By the way, I DO know you, don't I? Were you at Mose's album launch? Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 03:48 PM Now, now Mudcatters and dear, sweet iggyfolk, let us not be too hasty in rushing to judgment about who is who in the guest posting department. What Joe Offer hasn't come back in here to tell you, but certainly should, is that GUEST 26 Nov 02 - 11:33 AM (the one many people love to hate) is not the same guest who exposed the fraudulent Guest iggyfolk in the 27 Nov 02 - 11:23 AM post. Sort of a conundrum, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: DougR Date: 27 Nov 02 - 04:31 PM Conundrum! I don't think we have had a thread on those for quite awhile. What brand do you prefer? L.H., you are in Trinidad so don't even think about replying. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rapparee Date: 27 Nov 02 - 04:44 PM Dear Guest, and anyone else who might be interested: Joe Offer is quite correct: he knows who you are. He could, if he so choose, do many things to you, the least of which is disclosing your identity. Trust me on this: should he decide to discipline you, you would have no recourse, either in law or otherwise. I *KNOW* what can be done, because for over ten years I did pretty much what Joe and others do. Guest, it is quite simple to determine your IP address, even if you are using a service configured for DHCP. From that your identity is easily traced. This can be done _even if you are accessing this site from a public terminal (such as might be available at a public library and from behind a firewall)_. No, I won't tell you how it could or would be done. Suffice to stay that I suggest you stop trolling. If you don't like Mudcat, don't go here. If it isn't what you think it used to be, well, nothing ever is what it used to be -- you can't go home again. Change happens, entropy ALWAYS increases -- deal with it. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 05:26 PM Oh come on Rapaire, do you think no anonymous guests knows any of the information you just threatened us with? It isn't like we don't know how big and bad the Mudcat wolves can be, despite the fact that most people here don't want to believe they would ever do such a thing. As to legal wrangling, well. If someone sues you, you have to defend yourself, don't you? If someone reports the website to any myriad number of institutions, organizations, corporations, investigations can be a big pain in the ass, can't they? Donated to Max's favorite personal charity lately, and wondered where the money went? A complaint form can be filed online with the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office for charities fraud: http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/ppd/charity/compform/form.cfm And they do investigate all complaints received. Been to the Mudcat auction lately? According to the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), Internet auction fraud is the No. 1 con game on the Net, and they are required by law to investigate every complaint filed with them too. There are hackers too, who could shut down this place in a New York minute. So sure, Max and the elves can cause some trouble. They can expose the identities of anonymous users of their website and take their vengeance by taking a few pounds of guest flesh. But I'll take an attorneys advice as to whether or not there is legal recourse for the person whose identity was exposed--that is determined state by state. I don't know what makes you think Max/Mudcat can do that sort of shit without paying a price for such unethical cyber behavior Rapaire. Karma is karma, as they say. But what I really find amusing is the idea that it is all about secret identities, and if the anonymous guest's identity can somehow be exposed, then Mudcat will win. Win what? What makes people think the only reason why someone is posting anonymously is because they don't want the world to know it is them posting? So, go ahead and say message #_______ came from IP #_________ and we traced this machine's movements to this website and that, and here are all the bank account numbers, credit card numbers, email accounts, we have mined from this IP (go ahead and try publicly publishing that information here and see what the legal ramifications are!) and the ISP is ________ and the account is in the name of __________. Sure, Max can do it. But he better be damn sure he has plenty of money for lawyers, and a lot of time to spend with government investigators if he does. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: artbrooks Date: 27 Nov 02 - 05:34 PM ANON.GUEST gets sillier and sillier, doesn't he/she/it? As if anybody really cared. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 27 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM Yes, s/he does. And show's his/her true colors in that last post. It shows you exactly where that poor excuse for a mind is. Peace Matriot/ladies against war/etc. always tries to come off as superior, more knowledgeable, more committed, blah, blah,blah. But with that last post you see exactly where this transcybergendered troll really comes from. I have seen it at work over and over. This is a person with a real crisis of personality. Now the conspiracy shit will start. I have said it before. You need professional help. I sincerely hope you get it. Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 05:44 PM 1. Invasion of Privacy Torts The modern common law of privacy finds its roots in four distinct causes of action for invasion of privacy: (1) appropriation of the plaintiff's name or likeness for commercial benefit; (2) unreasonable intrusion with a plaintiff's interest in solitude or seclusion; (3) public disclosure of private facts; and (4) publicity which places the plaintiff in a false light.[39] These common law torts provide for money damages, occasionally special damages, and often injunctive relief.[40] However, not all states recognize these causes of action. Additionally, where confidential information is disclosed or disseminated, many courts have found that plaintiffs must prove that the information was widely disclosed in order to prevail.[41] The imposition of liability under these theories therefore usually requires publication or widespread disclosure of personal or confidential information. The tort of invasion of privacy torts does not generally provide the broad level of privacy protection consumers seek against the unauthorized collection, storage, or dissemination of personal information on the Internet. However, the tort of unreasonable intrusion upon another's seclusion or private affairs could apply to Web site operators and information providers who collect personal information but who either do not provide adequate notice about how such information will be used or who use the information in an unauthorized manner. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 27 Nov 02 - 05:51 PM Got an issue with having the last word? You are scaring no one. But go ahead, get the last word..........c'mon, you know you want to. Time to get out of this one and let you talk to yourself. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 05:53 PM Easy there boys. I was just showing Rapaire's threats for the bogus bullshit they are. There are obviously just as many nasty consequences for those site owners/maintainers who "do damage" to their website users, both legal and illegal, as there are for users whose personal information is in the hands of unethical and unscrupulous website owners. So Rapaire, maybe you ought to just stay out of it, and quit threatening anonymous guests, eh? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:09 PM Grumble, grumble, grumble, murmur, murmur, murmur. Where have I heard all of this before? No Spaw (if you ever read your way all the way down here, you never said, "We've Alreaddddy discusssed that." Think I'll go back and read some more interesting threads.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:24 PM We're still waiting for that explanation you promised to provide of the difference between stealing MP3s and stealing lyrics from the DT in the Napster thread, Big Mick. Kiss kiss. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Gareth Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:36 PM Well I'am happy. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:42 PM Me too Gareth. And to the USians, a happy t'day, and to everyone else, have a damn fine Thursday, I'll raise a glass to you all. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:46 PM I could go on (andon) but 1. I think the light touch Joe shows on censorship is admirable. 2. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:52 PM Oops. and 2. I am quite disturbed that Joe should be so critical of the PEL threads. It is vital to the survival of folk music and dance in England and Wales that the new regime does not become law as presently drafted. The more people read about it, the more people can do something like write to the goverment and who knows, maybe one day our governemnt will listen. It's the only way to affect the law other than unaffordable test litigation or a revolution AND a third thing. GUEST - I've always posted my real name even when I am upsetting people (well, apart from a long unused handle I used to use to keep worthwhile threads going) adn have even posted my address. Come out from behind your sheet. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:57 PM As people keep on saying, don't feed the trolls. In fact don't read them either is a good policy. Easier said than always done. Reading this thread I was skipping the anonymous GUEST ones - but then there were posts from people I wanted to read responding to posts I'd been avoiding reading, so I had to read a couple of them to understand what they were on about. I think what Big Mick said in his last post says whatever needs saying about that particular irrelevance. As for the decline from the Good Old Days - here is a link to the the time warp machine, which enables us to read old Mudcat pages from way back in the last millennium. And however far back you go, there are people writing posts about how it ain't what it used to be and the glory days are gone. Which may be true, but I'm a bit sceptical. Things change and people move on, and there are always relatively few diamonds in the dust and there are always swine ready to complain about the qualities of the pearls. And the best bullshit is pretty rare as well. But we've still got diamonds and pearls and prime quality BS enough to keep the place going, and in pretty good shape. Thanks to the people who keep it that way - Max and Joe and Jeff, for doing the work (and of course Dick and Susan for the DT, which is at the heart of it all), but also the regulars who keep it alive and wholesome. Not perfect (and nothing ever is), but healthy. And if I mentioned names I'd leave out others who also play a vital part in achieving this - as well as in the process inviting crass comments about Gangs of Twelve and Cliques. So thanks to the people who deserve thanking, which is the large majority of people posting regularly. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: mmb Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:14 PM On this evening before the Thanksgiving Holiday here in the States, I am really thankful for Mudcat, and especially for this thread! I am a new-comer to Mudcat. Early in September my daughter (who lives in Manhattan) stumbled upon a reference to a weekly session at a Bluegrass Shop that turns out to be a 10-minute drive from where I'm living in Florida. She emailed me the link to the thread she'd discovered, but I didn't get to check out the session for a month or so, and forgot about Mudcat until the first week of October. So I'm about two months old on Mudcat. In this time, I 1. got directions to the Bluegrass Shop in St. Petersburg 2. re-connected with some former northern acquaintances by posting to a thread on Fox Hollow memories, 3. re-connected with some Helen Schneyer friends and fans by refreshing a thread on her that hadn't been active for some time, 4. received really useful suggestions in tracking down the origins of "I Bid You Goodnight," 5. discovered that 'Catters are as articulate and impassioned as they are diverse, whether the topic is "The Plural of You," serious disagreement on the character and treatment of the Travelling People, on either side of the Atlantic, cheering up members who've shared health concerns, and/or rejoicing in the sharing of good news, 6. got shot down a few times for not knowing enough to check the old threads before posting a question, 7. thought questions I'd posted were being ignored, 8. but learned from a couple patient members that "refresh" is a way to revive a thread that's gotten buried, 9. and learned here tonight a) why so many threads are buried in the list when traffic on just one or two other very popular threads crowds them out of view, b) giving newbies like me the impression our posts have been ignored, and c) pointing out how filtering can save time and the eyestrain of having to scan all the unwanted messages to look for the ones I want. I may not be able to visit as often as I'd like, but I think I'll hold on to my membership card for the foreseeable future. Happy Thanksgiving, fellow Americans, and a good weekend to all others! M. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Amos Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM You too, MMB! Bright voices like yours are one of the things I am thankful for around the 'Cat! A |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: DougR Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:28 PM Well what about ME, Amos? You're not thankful for ME? :>) Happy Thanksgiving! DougR |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: harpgirl Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:44 PM ...thank God for our token conservative! Hope someone feeds you tomorrow, Dougie! Love, the liberal you love to hate! Abby |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:46 PM Aw hell Dougie, I'll be thankful for you! Regardless of where we agree or disagree, I am always impressed by your gumption in saying whatever you think, taking on all comers, and emerging from it all with an obvious enjoyment and a smile. So I'll be thankful to have you this Thanksgiving and for many into the future.....I only wish that we could have you here in Ohio at our table with us for a talk and a few good hugs and some damn fine eatin'! So now your mission is to root for Ohio State when they show up in Tempe to play for the National Championship! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:48 PM Damn Harpy, beat me to it!!! And I'm thankful for you too Harpy even if you do call me names..........ya' bitch! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Justa Picker Date: 27 Nov 02 - 10:52 PM You're my hero Doug! |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:06 PM Well GUEST ....it has been a grand charade...but .........................................................it is time the Piper is paid................. ..........We have run.......IT ............................................... ...............................................................................................We have run it TWICE ............................................................. ......................................we have even bent over backwards and forwards ............................ ..........................................................................................and crammed, damned it through THRICE!!!!!................................................................. ................your identity will now be revealed...........by the glorious, unquivically demonic spirit of the darkest realms of the inner arm-socket-pits of the mudcat............. ................You are Me................. ..................AS........................... Come Together ....................................OVER MAX! Yes...folks the villan poster has been positively indentified as MAX himself...... |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Ireland Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:21 PM I've seen many forums which show the ip of it's members, I suppose Joe etc could block the offending ip from getting onto the site. Would Joe Max etc not have recourse against those who abuse their site so do such threats not go both ways, find the isp and get them to handle such bs and threats. After all such guests have had it made clear to them that they are not appreciated, so they rely more on the Mudcat for their existence than the other way round. So all the crap from guest is self deprecation, in the end people will either ignore them completely,( I use "them" due to the many personae one person displays, could that be schizophrenia?) or Joe,Max etc could use the option of blocking them, one off the many recourses which will end guests contribution for good or bad. Does the argument that "I contribute musically" make up for the disruption caused elsewhere. And are those who encourage such trolls by accepting their argument and agreeing with them being fooled into stoking the fire. How many times has guest been saying exactly what others want to hear,pure bs stirring. What I ask is should others think what is this person really at, their agenda,motives,sincerity before they give them legitimacy by supporting their argument? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Ireland Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:30 PM Sorry I forgot happy thanksgiving have a good weekend, lucky sods lol!! |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:31 PM I think this a GRAND idea - it is a stroke of genius.
Within the header of every internet message is the IP address...Max's can read them, Joe can read them....let the entire MudCat community read them....
The re-programing is a matter of three to five lines of simple code.
Go For It!!!
We will all anonymous...but no-one ... will be anonymous....
Sincerely,
Except for the elite few....who know what to do.... |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: harpgirl Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:35 PM ...why thank you , Pat! Happy thanksgiving to you, too! HaHaHa...harpg |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 27 Nov 02 - 11:36 PM FOLKS...as benevolent as Max appears....
..........the bottom line is...............he is a desperate.......................ride the wave ....................................dot....com........ER......................that was surfing..........only to find the wave turn to mush beneath with digital surf-board.........
DeltaBlues is a ghost image on the current web-face-screen...................
The domain is for sale.....................if anyone has a market.....................................................in the UnderWater........................department.......or Geometry.
Gargoyle |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,BK (cookies turned off) Date: 28 Nov 02 - 01:01 AM This became, perhaps predictably, what it disagrees with... I've been here @ MC since?? In the early 90's I got from Dick a copy of the DT on 5.25" floppies for my old DOS machine, before my internet days. I lurked a very long time, then began posting in 1997; It was, IMHO, dramatically better in the past. Still may be the best site on the web, but so full of BS that these days I rarely look for more than seconds - surprised that I bothered to even read this. the "GUEST" & Gargoyle slime is what caused it. Joe: keep up the good work; if the nasties aren't whining about you, you probably are falling behind. Cheers, BK |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Richie Date: 28 Nov 02 - 01:08 AM Hi, I'm a new member and have been doing folk research on mudcat for several months now. It's great to have a collective of intelligent souls (Jung's collective subconscious) to ferret out the details. I ignore all threads and posts I'm not interested in. I do think it's a shame to have good threads hurt by thread drift, trolling and personal attacks. The only problen I have is getting access. Usually I can get into the Discussion Forum several times a week. yesterday I couldn't get on at all. Tonight everything is peachy. This is really a great place, keep it up, -Richie |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Linda Kelly Date: 28 Nov 02 - 06:53 AM I have visited this site for some year's - with a previous handle of ickledorritt. Perhaps I am guilty along with Les from Hull and a few others of spreading the Mudcat name throughout Hull, and creating what to others seems to be a real problem here. That's a pity, since without exception the Mudcatters I come into contact with are incredible musicians and whereas some of the threads become slightly surreal, they more often or not are created to advertise and spread the word about live music in our area -in much the same way as Sorcha Dorcha did in past year's. God forbid if Dylan ever joined the site and started a bullshit thread or advertised his next concert-would we treat him the same as we treat some of the members of this forum? The result of this interaction as Roger de Beverley has said -was the formation of the Peoples Voice Festival which was a huge success.Is there more bullshit than before? -I don't think so -we have always had inflammatory (Northern Ireland) and daft threads and I thought of late there was less flaming rather than more. I am sorry to say but I am inclined like Bassic and others to give up on this forum because I find it with a few exceptions really quite insulting to me and my friends. That said anyone here would receive a huge welcome if they came to Hull!Please don't take this site too seriously - it's not the real world9. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: katlaughing Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:08 AM Linda, please don't take the naysayers too seriously. They don't have to read the Hull threads and they've no reason to complain about the threads which have kept all those interested informed about the new music festival which you mention. I'd much rather see Hull in a thread title than Shatner, besides!*bg* It would be Mudcat's loss if we no longer had you as a member, as well as the other *folkers* from Hull.:-) kat |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: KingBrilliant Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:13 AM Linda - people that complain about the Hullers are probably just jealous. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:18 AM I'm a newbie anyway, am a trad musician rather than a folkie, and have been absent or lurking for months, but I just want to get in to endorse the messages of support for Joe, and to thank all the people who have been helpful on MC. Admittedly I've often contributed to BS threads, either political or jokey ones where I feel I have something to contribute to the debate, but have still always respected basic decency and avoided invective. Just this once, I'll make an exception to the last comment and say that I wish the assholes would get the hell out of here. But unfortunately, life isn't like that. So don't feed 'em. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,p.mitchell @new work Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:49 AM I've been in the background for some time now. This BS stuff seems a cyclical issue mostly. However, I find also that the MudCat hasn't changed (although it looks great and is easier to use) as much as I have. I don't look into many BS threads. I've learnt to avoid stuff about Northern Ireland etc... and have also be pleased to have a place to share some thoughts, for example expressing my sympathy to the people affected by 9/11. i don't have many other places to do this other than the MudCat. I enjoy being around musicians and bodhran players ;-)and would humbly suggest that people don't leave, they just take a little break and pop back in without sending stuff to the BS threads for a while. I'll go hide again now. Paul |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:49 AM Well said Linda! A few days ago I considered leaving this forum for good myself, I had read a thread "global warming" where someone stated that the sooner Hull floods and we all drown here the better! I am also fed up of the endless arguments, many of which have nothing to do with folk music whatsoever, ie Northern Ireland, Israel, Iraq, etc, etc, I feel many of these are a waste of time and just cause bad feeling. It amazes abd saddens me that whilst a third of the worlds population don't know where their next meal is coming from, all we can do is argue about the content of a website.Hull is a music city, and nobody has to read about it! Don't bother replying directly to me anyone, as I am going to eat my dinner, then I am going to play some music.cheers.john |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: mooman Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:52 AM Linda...please don't leave. You are a much valued asset here....at least by many of us. Roger...I didn't know you knew rude words like that! Richard |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Jeri Date: 28 Nov 02 - 08:52 AM The funny thing is that while people may seem to be complaining about BS, what they're really complaining about is the BS they don't like. Someone may be really honked off by silly humor, but enjoy the political threads because they're Serios and Meaningful. Someone may not like the threads on politics, religion or any number of controversial and often contentious topics but are happy to read and contribute to the nice threads. Some people may say they don't like certain types of topics or sub-topics (playing with trolls, for instance), but they're in them constantly and I have to conclude that they DO really enjoy that sort of discussion. We do what we enjoy. If we feel like we get 'sucked into' discussions we don't like or later feel ashamed for having added to, we have no one to blame but ourselves. At some point, we either learn to self-censor by not clicking on thread titles we don't think we want to read, we censor the whole forum and leave. If we simply don't like seeing certain thread titles, never mind what's in them, it's a sensitization thing and it's something for individuals to deal with, not all of us. It's taken an awful lot of getting pissed off about things I can't change to come to that conclusion. It's taken me realizing I have control over ME and that's all I have control over. It's taken me realizing what pushes my buttons and how to recognize when one's being pushed. I'm here for what I like. If I ever leave, it will be because there's not enough of that - NOT because there's too much other stuff. I know it's smarmy, but even if I'm just talking the way I deal with the little things in my life, I've GOT to make kindness more important than anger, respect of people's strengths more important than disrespect for their weaknesses, willingness to forgive more important than willingness to take offense and love more important than hate. I've seen what the opposites can do to people. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Fingerbuster Date: 28 Nov 02 - 09:11 AM What is the problem? No matter what, this is the BEST site on the web. Lighten up a bit for goodness (and your health's) sake. I second the comments in the previous message. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 28 Nov 02 - 09:52 AM Iggyfolk was exposed for trolling, and yet still people insisted on carrying on about this bullshit. Iggyfolk successfully started a thread to bitch about one group of people gaining more prominence in the forum--people from Hull--and about them having a good time here discussing music in their area. The Hull folks aren't the problem in Mudcat. In fact, they are a refreshing change from the people Iggyfolk appealed to with this thread, who ARE the current problem here--the Mudcat Oldtimers, who have all had their say here. Trolls are trolls people. You were very successfully trolled by what appears to be one your former own. Iggyfolk came in and played the divide and conquer game, and those with self-control problems fell for it. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: bbc Date: 28 Nov 02 - 12:58 PM Good post, Jeri. I agree. You are absolutely right that most of us like *some* of the BS & that we vary in which kinds we like & which we don't. Your post helped clarify that for me. I still find enough to keep me coming back & I value friends like you who I've met over Mudcat. Happy Thanksgiving, friend! best from NY, bbc |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: katlaughing Date: 28 Nov 02 - 01:16 PM ...make kindness more important than anger, respect of people's strengths more important than disrespect for their weaknesses, willingness to forgive more important than willingness to take offense and love more important than hate. Well said, Jeri. Seems to me this would be a good way for the world to operate and a worthy goal for each individual. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: mmb Date: 28 Nov 02 - 02:45 PM I couldn't agree with your 8:52 AM posting more, Jeri. In addition, I tend to approach problems from a systems perspective, and this thread has been haunting me since last night. Perhaps because of the impending Holiday season, it has reminded me of a classic American TV movie: the Homecoming. It portrays a family with fundamental differences in values and perspectives that have separated them both geographically and emotionally, threatening to disrupt their long-planned holiday together unless and until their problems are recognized and addressed. Recognizing and addressing problems is especially difficult when they are filtered through as many backgrounds, perspectives, and communication skills as we have here on the MC. As I was thinking about this thread last night, I had the wierdest thought: What would a Myers-Briggs profile of this "group" look like . . .? Which led me to wonder if a hypothetical analysis of posting patterns wouldn't reveal several broad categories of post-ers. Please note that this is not a suggestion to do so, and that there are no value judgements implied or intended in this hypothetical description of 'Categories: 1) Those who are focused on the DT, would limit Forum discussions to a narrow definition of The Music, and have little or no patience with anything else cluttering up the site 2) Those who make little or no use of the DT, but rely on the Forum's broad knowledge base and generous sharing on topics that have some general relationship to The Music. 3) Those for whom the Music provides the substrate for social interaction, so the BS threads are their principal attractors, as well as the Mudchat and occasional forays into music threads that happen to catch their attention. Reverting to the dysfunctional family in The Homecoming, within each of our oversimplified 'Categories there may be some members who honestly disagree on facts or values, and who address their differences with honesty and a fundamental respect for each other. But there are also members who appear to take their greatest pleasure from antagonizing the others, whether by criticism, dispute, or name-calling. It is the use to which they put what would otherwise appear to be strong communication skills that is so damaging to the family/group dynamic. Some families shun such members. Others tolerate their negativity, contributing to the weakening of the family ties. And still others, having discovered that the efforts of their individual memberss are insufficient, develop systemic strategies to address their primary problems. It is this last approach that I would like to suggest, and please note that this is in very preliminary form, subject to technical considerations. I would suggest offering the membership an opportunity to respond to a survey thread proposing one change to the sequencing of the threads and messages they see when they log on. The underlying query that generates the lists of threads and messages would require a command for a "First Sort by Prefix," using an alpha sort of the fields in the Prefix drop-down box. In deference to the stated mission of the 'Cat, I would suggest that the end-user would see all the music threads first, and that the results of the member survey be used to determine whether those with the Tech prefix or those with the BS threads follow next. Whatever the order of the First Sort, within each of the categories the lists would be generated just as they are now, Within the Last 24/48 Hrs, or by Postings Since Last Visit, etc. So if I clicked on Messages Since My Last Visit, I would see those that had been posted to the threads with music prefixes first, followed by - e.g. - the Tech responses, followed by BS postings, in either ascending or descending order (depending upon which sort order I'd chosen. Once I became aware of the display pattern, I could focus my attention directly on my target category without having to switch filtering options. What think y'all? Peace! M. * * * * * * * * * * * * Joe - - What follows is my understanding of the technical/logical considerations. I won't mind if you think it should be deleted to shorten the message, as long as someone gives it some consideration and lets me know if my reasoning is not valid. Thanks. Since there would be no change in the structure of any tables, and no change to the prefixes, there would be no backwards-compatible problems, and the pattern of the threads would be self-explanatory to even a casual visitor. I suspect that denial of past requests to add new prefixes that I've noticed comes from the structure of the Prefix drop-down box and its relationships to the other tables. My suggestion does not affect any existing relationships or structures. It does add a query (more than one?). I think my database theory is solid, but my knowledge of web application programming is very superficial. I realize that I may not fully appreciate the programming implications of this suggestion. If this is the case, perhaps it may at least stimulate some other appropriate response. M.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: DougR Date: 28 Nov 02 - 11:10 PM Jeri: Your 8:52 A.M. post is a gem. Abbie: My Lord woman, I admire you! How could I hate you? Spaw: Be assured that at least one Arizonan will be rooting for the Llamas ...er ...sorry ...the Beavers ...oh no ... er ...Ohio State when they come out here to win the Fiesta Bowl, regardless of who they are playing! That Arizonan will be me! (From all accounts in the newspapers though, Ohio State fans do get a bit rambunctious at times. I hope they will restrain themselves when they come to Tempe. We are peaceful folks out here.) DougR |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: DougR Date: 28 Nov 02 - 11:11 PM Oh, and Justa Picker: aw shucks. DougR |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Mrrzy Date: 29 Nov 02 - 12:58 AM Let me say this about that. First, I don't consider myself an old-timer, or a core member, or anything, but I think a lot of you know my name. I know that I was one of those who talked non-music, but important to me, stuff here, when it really was mainly a music forum. That was because I considered you all to be friends of mine (and of each other) who were into music, not musicians and that's all. It didn't occur to me that it would be a bad thing. However, I do find that there are fewer music threads, and I can see that for the musicians who consider this a resource, that might be a problem. I am not a professional musician, I'm just someone who knows almost all the words to a zillion songs, and who like to sing songs all the way through. And I still find the Mudcat to be THE place to find those last few lines... despite all the BS threads. Fourth, therefore, I wish to apologize profusely if I was more of a force away from music than I thought I would be. But I don't regret one minute of the time I've spent here, not even when reading posts specifically nastily addressed personally to me, because hey, if you can't offend your friends, whom can you offend? (That is, I guess, I have that thick skin here of which much has been made.) Meanwhile this is still a resource to end all resources and a great group of diverse individuals whom I consider to be my friends. I've been educated and succored here; having to read a lot of thread titles to find the ones that will fit that bill is a small price to pay to me, although I (having at least seen the "old" Mudcat) can completely understand the legitimate gripe of those old catters, and the only thing I can think of is a time machine + 17 PMs to me and all other such not to do that again after my/their first off-topic post... |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bassic Date: 29 Nov 02 - 06:22 AM Thanks Jeri |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,iggy folk Date: 29 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM I thought that this was getting a bit strange when I looked in a couple of days ago but I can really see now why some of the people I mentioned in my first post may have given up trying to keep the site more focused. I really am sorry for any slights that were taken and I assure you that wasn't my intent. I'm glad that some Mudcatters agreed with at least some of my concerns. Jeri, your post really made me think and perhaps soften my opinions a bit. I'm told that you'll be visiting here later this month so I'll get a chance to meet you and perhaps make some music. iggy |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Jeri Date: 29 Nov 02 - 02:49 PM Or later next month! I look forward to meeting you, iggy. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM THANKS Joe! (refreshing now that the rest of my post is visible.) |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Dec 02 - 06:26 PM So...I might as well close this sucker off. Iggy, if yer still around. I hope that you've noticed (as per our little chat off Mudcat) that it's MUCH more focused than when you started this a few days ago. There are academic discussions, SOME political things, PBS arguments, Lyric adds. (a great way to push off the threads you find trivial!!) and in general...a different mix than a few days ago, 'cuz people have MADE it a different mix. If yer looking for more...good luck, but this ain't bad. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: John Routledge Date: 04 Dec 02 - 06:31 PM Exactly Rick. Posters controlling their keyboards and hence the Forum |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Gareth Date: 04 Dec 02 - 06:43 PM And a final comment - id the Mudcat weren't here would we have to invent it ??? All praise to Max, and his helpers, and Joe I can't complain about your degree of cencorship. You keep it at a civilized basis - which is as it should be. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 02 - 06:54 PM Now all you Old Timers git out there and order them MUDCAT CDs!!! You'll be the better for it!!! A |
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