Music Notation Question

Subject: Music Notation Question
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 06:11 AM

This is probably really obvious, but if I ever knew, I've forgotten.

What does a bracketed eight (8) directly underneath a treble clef mean?

Thank you

Paul

Subject: RE: Music Notation Question
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 06:53 AM

It means the sounding pitch of a note in the clef is actually an octave below that notated.

You'll find it in classical guitar music - the note written as middle C in the clef is (eg) played on the 3rd fret of the 5th (A) string of the guitar, but if you compare it with a note played on a piano, you'll find it is actually the C below middle C on the piano.

These days with the guitar you'll usually find the (8) omitted; it's assumed you know the sounding pitch is lower.

Mick

Subject: RE: Music Notation Question
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 06:58 AM

Thank you, Mick

Much appreciated

Subject: RE: Music Notation Question
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 09:22 PM

It's also used for the Tenor voice... again, it's often omitted.

The reason for its use is simple - if written in the bass clef, most of the notes would be up in the 'leger lines' (French origin, roughly meaning 'flying lines').

There is another clef, drawn as an odd looking K, in which the line passing through the centre of the K is Middle C - often referred to as the 'Viola clef', the viola being the instrument which is almost always written in that clef.

The complication is that the K clef can move - middle C could be the middle line, or any other line for that matter!

Just as a matter of interest, the treble clef started as an uppercase G, and the bass clef started as an uppercase F. The curl of the treble clef goes around G, and the spots (originally the horizontal lines of the F) are on either side of the F line.

Subject: RE: Music Notation Question
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 04:56 AM

I'm not used to the 8 being bracketted, although I have see it as 8ve. For higher ranges than the treble clef, the 8 can be above the clef indicating that the notes are peformed an octave higher than written. As mentioned above, on most 4 stave SATB choral music, the tenor line is usually written on the treble clef, but sung an octave lower - as a tenor I dislike having my part written on a bass clef.

Subject: RE: Music Notation Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 02:00 PM

The full notation is customarily 8va, an abbreviation for Italian "ottava" (octave) with the "8" supplying the "otta-" portion.
Placed above the staff, it means "at the octave higher," and in "formal" notation should be used only above a treble staff.

The notes which are to be "played higher" should, in formal notation, be indicated by a dashed line above them, ending with a vertical "slash." Occasionally you will see the note "loco," which means "in place" at the end of the shifted passage, meaning that you play to notes that follow as written.

The 8va symbol is commonly abreviated as simply 8, but sometimes has an added "a" to be read ottava alta - "at the octave higher."

A similar downward octave shift may be noted as "8va bassa," "8a b," or just as "8" placed below the staff. In "formal" notation, this should be used only below a bass staff. A dashed line below the staff, ending with a vertical "slash" should show which notes are to be "shifted."

You will occasionally see the "8va b" above the staff, when necessary to keep the notation neat - it still means "play an octave lower" (because of the "b") and should only be used on a bass staff in formal notation.

I informal notation (we ain't fussy) an 8 above a staff symbol means play the whole d... thing an octave up, and an 8 below the sign means play it an octave lower. By custom in some places, the 8 may or may not be enclosed in brackets, braces, or parentheses.

Very rarely, you may see a "2" in place of the 8, meaning "shift by an octave."

A two octave shift can be similarly indicated by a "15ma," "15a," or just "15." (It. "quindicessima") Theoretically, you could use "15ma basso" (or "15 b") to indicate "play two octaves lower," but it would be extremely rare. Note that the second octave up or down is the 15th, not the 16th.

In the same places where a "2" replaces the "8" for an octave shift, a "2 Okt" means "15va" or 2 octaves shift.

A similar notation, "coll' 8" has a slightly different meaning. An abbreviation of the Italian "coll'ottava" which is "with the octave," it means play both the note written and the octave above. (By extension, placed below a staff, the note written and the octave below?) You're unlikely to see this one in "folk" or "pop" music, but it could crop up in some (finger picker?) guitar notation.

"Modern" notation, notably jazz, has some variations on these - mostly involving arrows, dots, dashes, and such (incredibly hard to put in html, and fairly rare for most of us).

If you can make a guess, and it sounds good, then it's good notation. If it's not fairly obvious, then it's bad notation.

Dave B - be thankful you're not running into stuff written in tenor cleff. I find it a real b... to read.

Not too useful for the common folkie, but for those into answering questions about the esoteric, Music Notation: A Manual of Modern Practice, by Gardner Read, Taplinger Publishing Co, NY, ISBN 0-8008-5453-5 (2d ed paper) about $25 US. Very thorough, but again - not essential for most.

John

Subject: RE: Music Notation Question
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 03:27 PM

Yes... but the original question merely asked about the modified treble clef with an 8 incorporated (one way or another) into the bottom loop, most frequently found in vocal scores in my experience - as it happens, I have a copy of Handel's Messiah which uses it as the Tenor Clef, and agree that it is much easier to read than the 'K' tenor clef.

8va is used in the same manner as dynamic markings such as ff, pp and so on, but this is an actual clef we're talking about, not an instruction. Let's not get ourselves confused, eh?! ;o)