Origins: The Seven Joys

Subject: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: nutty
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:38 PM

The Bodleian Library has a number of Broadsides which appear to have an interesting early version of this song.
The link below takes you to just one example printed around 1810
The Seven Joys

I would be really grateful for any information eg .......
Does anyone know anything about this version?
Is it still sung?
Can anyone provide a tune?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:47 PM

This seems to stem from the Catholic "Seven Joys of Mary," ten Hail Mary's for each of the seven joys.

It is apparently still being sung. See Seven Joys

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:58 PM

Roud no.278. Found throughout England and occasionally in Ireland. Also quite widespread in the USA and Canada.

In notes accompanying three traditional versions of the carol (Journal of the Folk Song Society, vol. V, issue 18, 1914), Anne Gilchrist refers to "a 14th century version", but gives no particulars. Sets appear to have been sung to a number of different tunes; Gilchrist also refers to one printed in Bramley and Stainer, Christmas Carols, New and Old (1871), taken from an unidentified traditional source; and perhaps the oldest tune we have for it. This is reproduced in The Oxford Book of Carols, where the editors refer to the annual reprinting of the song on broadsides throughout the 18th and 19th centuries.

Roy Palmer (Bushes and Briars, 1999) refers to a "five joys" text included by the London grocer Richard Hill in his commonplace book, compiled during the early part of the 16th century (it also included a text of the Corpus Christi Carol).

There are two examples in the DT:

THE SEVEN JOYS OF MARY This was taken from A. L. Lloyd's Folksong in England, but no traditional source is mentioned. To be precise, the tune was noted by Anne G. Gilchrist from the singing of "W. Wickham (who learnt it from Tinker children called Wright, in Ashdown Forest), Blackham, Sussex, May 1907." It was printed in the Journal of the Folk Song Society, vol. V, issue 18, 1914, with the text of one verse only. Lloyd has added a set of fairly standard verses from somewhere or other, altering them a little to bring them into line with the (authentic) first verse.

THE SEVEN JOYS OF MARY (2) An American set, apparently; taken from the Burl Ives Song Book. No traditional source mentioned.

I'm fairly sure that there has been previous discussion here in the Forum, but the Search engine is up the spout today, so we'll have to wait for links to those.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: nutty
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 05:26 PM

Sorry to be pedantic but it is this particular version (the one I made the link to) that I am interested in.

It has a peculiar form of chorus which seems to link with "The Holly bears a Berry" (the rising of the sun and the running of the deer etc)

This version printed in both Birmingham and Newcastle in the early 1800's is one that I have not come across before.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 04:03 AM

Hi, Nutty - could I ask you you to post a transcription of the lyrics, in addition to the link? I think it helps to get as many versions of a song posted as we can. If they're posted, they turn up in our search engine.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: masato sakurai
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 05:02 AM

Transcription of nutty's version:

Printer: Wrighton, D. (Birmingham)
Date:    between 1812 and 1830
          Imprint: D. Wrighton, 86, Snow-Hill, Birmigham [sic]
          Illus. Ballads on sheet: 2   
Copies: Douce adds. 137(61)   
Ballads: 1. Arise & hail the sacred day ("Arise and hail the sacred day ...")
                   Subject: Christmas carols
                   Note: Carol
                2. The seven joys ("The first good joy our Lady had ...")
                   Subject: Christmas carols
                   Note: Carol

             THE SEVEN JOYS

The first good Joy our Lady had,
It was the Joy of one;
It was to see Her own dear Son,
Sucking at her breast bone.

            The rising of the Sun,
            The running of the Deer,
            They playing of the merry organ,
            Sweet singing in the Choir;
            Ah! blessed then is our Lady,
            Sprung from our dear Lady.

The next good Joy our Lady had,
It was the Joy of two,
It was to see her own dear Son,
To make the Lame to go!

The next good Joy our* Lady had, [*our our in the original]
It was the Joy of three;
It was to see her own dear Son,
To make the Blind to see.

The next good Joy our Lady had,
It was the Joy of four;
It was to see her own dear Son,
To read the Bible o'er.

The next good Joy our Lady had,
It was the Joy of five;
It was to see Her own dear Son,
Rise from the dead to Life!

The next good Joy our Lady had,
It was the Joy of six.
It was to see Her own dear Son,
Wearing the Crucifix.

The next good Joy our Lady had,
It was the Joy of seven;
It was to see Her own Son,
To wear the Crown of Heaven.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: nutty
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 05:17 AM

Sorry Joe ..... I probably should have done that in the first place.
Here it is anyway.   The verses are quiet straightforward ..... it was the chorus/refrain that intrigued me.



THE SEVEN JOYS

The first good joy our Lady had
It was the joy of one
It was to see her own dear Son
Sucking at her breast bone

       The rising of the sun
       The running of the deer
       The playing of the merry organ
       Sweet singing in the choir
       Ah, Blessed then is our Lady
       Blessed then is she
       For this is one of seven joys
       Sprung from our dear Lady

The next good joy our Lady had
It was the joy of two
It was to see her own dear Son
To make the lame to go

The next good joy our Lady had
It was the joy of three
It was to see her own dear Son
To make the blind to see

The next good joy our Lady had
It was the joy of four
It was to see her own dear Son
To read the Bible o'er

The next good joy our Lady had
It was the joy of five
It was to see her own dear Son
Rise from the dead to life

The next good joy our Lady had
It was the joy of six
It was to see her own dear Son
Wearing the Crucifix

The next good joy our Lady had
It was the joy of seven
It was to see her own dear Son
To wear the crown of Heaven



This version is found in the Bodleian Broadside Library
Printed by   T Bloomer of Birmingham 1817 - 1827
             D Wrighton of Birmingham 1812 - 1830
             W & T Fordyce of Newcastle   1832 - 1842

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: masato sakurai
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 05:20 AM

There're two other editions containing the "rising of the sun" verse.

The Seven Joys: Douce adds. 137(19)

The Seven Joys: Harding B 7(28)

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: nutty
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 05:29 AM

There are a number of Broadsides of the "rising of the sun " version in the Bodleain Library, all (as far as we can tell), printed in London ...... which made me wonder if this was a 'Northern' variation.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 02:14 PM

Now, how would one sing the "rising of the sun" chorus? Would it be like the tune of the chorus in "The Holly Bears a Berry"? Click here for "Holly & the Ivy" threads.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 03:00 PM

Baggyrinkle & Friends are singing carols around a Christmas Market in Swansea, Wales over the coming week. Seven Joys Of Mary is one the carols in our repertoire. It was interesting to learn some of the theories behind the carol. It appears that we feature the children's version mentioned in this thread. Also mentioned is a version of The Holly And The Ivy which again is featured at this event. The tune we use is different to the more common version.

The whole programme consists of carols mainly traditional, interspersed with a few seasonal Victorian music hall songs and some humerous material such as Sid Kipper's Poacher's Christmas!

We swap our sea shanty garb for ladies and gentlemen's costume from the Victorian era.

Nadolig Llawen!

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 03:18 PM

Well, Joe, it's probably impossible to say for sure. Various tunes have been found with traditional examples of the song, including a major variant of God Rest You Merry Gentlemen with the final line of the refrain of that song substituted for the usual one. The tune best known at the moment (and the earliest known, so far as I can tell from such references as I have) is the one quoted in the Oxford Book. There's more than one tune associated with The Holly and the Ivy, too, so it would be a bit dicey trying to guess what combination or otherwise of tunes might have been used for this broadside version.

Unless anyone comes up with references from contemporary literature (not impossible), we probably can't go beyond speculation.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: nutty
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 03:31 PM

I've just re-read this thread and realised that my 5.29am response is inaccurate. What I meant to say was that there are a number of Broadsides of the standard version. All (as far as we can tell) were printed in London.
Sorry

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: nutty
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 08:08 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: GUEST,Boromir
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM

The carol is probably a Protestant reaction to the Seven Dolors of Mary which are recited with an Ave in between.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: IanC
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 12:54 PM

A. L. Lloyd says there's an early 16th Century version in Richard Hill's Commonplace book. This is online at the Bodleian here.

Sorry, I haven't got time to look for the right page at the moment.

:-)

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 02:26 PM

I didn't know that the MS was available online now; thanks for the info. It's at: Balliol College MS. 354

Neither Lloyd nor Palmer (my first post here) give a page reference, so most people will find it easier to look the text up in Richard Leighton Greene's The early English carols, or something like that.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 07:14 PM

The carol seems to be No. 230 in Greene's Early English Carols, 2nd ed. (p. 144), whose burden and the first stanza are:

a. Balliol College, Oxford. MS. 354
             By John Audelay (?), XVI cent.
f. 219r
    'Aue Maria,' now say we so;
    Mayd and moder were neuer no mo.

                  [1]
Gaude Maria, Cristes moder,
   Mary myld, of the I mene;
Thou bare my Lord, thou bare my broder,
   Thou bare a louly child and clene.
   Thou stodyst full still withowt blyn
         Whan in thy ere that arand was done so;
   Tho gracius God the lyght withyn,
         Gabrielis nuncio.

The note (p. 403) by Greene to the carol, tentatively titled "Of the Five Joys of Mary," is as follows:

   The carol is based on a hymn of the Five Joys, 'Gaude virgo, Mater Christi' (Horae Eboracenses, Publications of the Surtees Society, cxxxii, Durham, 1920, 63). It is not a translation, however.
   [...]
All the preserved MS. carols in Middle English use the orthodox number of five for the Joys. Seven and twelve and ten are found in traditional folk-songs on the theme collected in modern times, none of which is a direct survival of the texts here selected. According to the note of William H. Husk to his song 'The Twelve Good Joys of Mary', 'The extension of the Seven joys to Twelve is confined to the northern parts of the country, being only found in broadsides printed at Newcastle late in the last, or early in the present century' (Songs of the Nativity, London, 1868, p. 87). O.B.C. [Oxford Book of Carols], Music Edn., in its note to its No. 70, 'Joys Seven', misleadingly refers to 'the Seven Joys of the Sloane MS.'.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 12:27 PM

I must see how this compares with the Irish language song about 7 joys of Mary. Meanwhile, I'm unsucessfully seeking 7 sorrows thread - found sheet music. Can someone refresh?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Felipa
Date: 05 May 03 - 04:47 PM

for an Irish language Seven Joys, see Seacht Suáilcí na Maighdine Muire
(and I put a link there to the Irish language Seven Sorrows thread)
both threads include translations

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:05 PM

Nutty

I'm sure I first heard this sung by the Watersons. It might even have been on Frost and Fire.

But anyway, I remember the tune, so if you haven't found one by now, PM me.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 May 03 - 04:08 AM

The Watersons sing no song by this title. On Frost and Fire they sing "Seven virgins". They do, however, song 'Holly bears a berry'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: IanC
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:01 AM

A number of mid 15th century versions of the "Five Joys" (No. 72 also mentions "these joyes sevene") is given at the TEAMS Project site ... The Joys of Mary.

No 74 is a full version of the 5 joys, and includes that beautiful medieval metaphor of the sun shining through glass.

Haile be thu, Mari maiden bright:
Thu teche me the wais right.
I am a sorful, dreri wight,
   Als thu mai se,
Quer I sal in the hard pine of hel be.

Mi sinful saule sighes sare:
Lived I have in sin and care,
Leve I wil and do na mare.
   Mi levedi fre,
Saul and bodi, liif and dede, biteche I thee.

Thar thu lay in thi bright boure,
Levedi, quite als lelé floure,
An angel com fra hevene toure,
   Sant Gabriel,
And said, "Levedi, ful of blis, ai worth thee wel!"

Stil thu stod, ne stint thu noght,
Thu said til him the bodword broght,
"Al his wil it sal be wroght,
   In his ancele."
Levedi, bifor thi suete sun mak us lele.

The tother joy I wate it was,
Als sun schines thoru the glas,
Sua ert thu, levedi, wemles,
   And ai sal be.
Levedi, for that suete joy thu reu on me.

The thrid joy I understand,
Thre kinges com of thrin land,
To fal thi suete sun til hand,
   And gaf him gift:
Mir, reclis, and gold red, als it was right.

The king was riche, the gold was rede,
The reclis fel til his goddhed,
Mir to man that sal be dede
   For ur sake.our
Levedi, to thi suete sun at ane us make.

The feird it es al thoru his grace,
Wuen he fra dede to liif ras,
Wuen he sua hard suongen was
   On rode tre.cross
Levedi, of ur sinnes al thu make us fre.

The fiift, thu was til heven broght:
The Juus thee soght and fand thee noght,
Als thi suete sun it wroght,
   Almighti king.
Levedi Mari, be ur helpe at ur ending.

Levedi, for thi joies five,
Thu kid thi might and help us suith,
Levedi Mari, moder o live,
   Wid flur and fruit,
Rose and leli, thu sprede ay wide and helpe thi suite.

Levedi Mari, wele thu wast,
The feindes fraistes me ful fast,
Wele I hope I sal thaim cast
   Thoru might of thee,
Quen I neven thi suete nam I ger thaim fle.

Thir jois er said als I can sai
Mi site, mi soru, I cast away,
Nu help me, levedi, wele thu may,
   And be mi spere.
Fra the har pain of hell thu me were.

All that singes this sang
And all that ligges in paines strang,
Thu lede thaim right thar thai ga wrang,
   And have merci
On all that trous that Godd was born of thee, fair levedi.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:39 PM

Nine Joys of Mary, English variant; thread 75706: Nine Joys of Mary

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: GUEST,Newfie
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 01:30 PM

Of course it is still sung...

Check out "Great Big Sea" from Newfoundland, Canada. THey do an upbeat acapella version.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 10:20 AM

The Silly Sisters, [ June Tabor and Maddy Prior ] recorded a good version.

eric

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Ian
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 04:15 AM

ERIC,
would the silly sisters version have the ch

Last line as refrain then ie
To make the lame to go
Good man
and blessed may he be
the father son and holy ghost
through all eternity.

If it is this you will have solved a problem for me as I remember hearing it on the radio but could not remember who sang it to get a recording.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Seven Joys
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 05:01 AM

Thats the one.

eric