When Dylan first went electric

Subject: When Dylan first went electric
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 08:05 PM

Was any Mudcatter present, or knows somebody who was there, at the legendary Manchester concert in 1966 when Dylan first played electric guitar ?

I am curious to know (approximately) how many people were in the audience in the Manchester Free Trade Hall that night.

Murray

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Reynolds
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 08:18 PM

Dylan was playing electric guitar for quite some time before Manchester in 1966. His first public appearance on electric guitar was at the Newport Folk Festival of 1965.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 08:27 PM

His first public appearance on electric guitar was at the Newport Folk Festival of 1965.

Which appearance can probably be considered the official end of the early '60s folk boom. Although the end started in the winter of '63-'64, with the Beatles' first US tour.

Peter.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST,REV
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 09:06 PM

My parents were at the Newport Folk Fest the year Dylan went electric. My Dad had been a fan since he was in college at Rutgers and he used to come up to New York to see Dylan play at Gerde's Folk City. Their sense of the folk festival was that people weren't exactly upset about the fact that he was playing electric, it was just that the sound was really bad (distorted due to a sound system set up for acoustic instruments), and that Dylan seemed really surly and only played a very short set. They said that they really didn't see what the big deal was until years later, when the incident achieved status as folk music history.
As for how many people were there at Newport, it's a big festival, I'll bet there's quite a few Mudcatters who were there! That British tour in 1966 would have also been pretty exciting - the live recording of that Manchester show sounds pretty rowdy!

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: JJ
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 08:10 AM

A couple of years ago Film Forum here in NYC showed Murray Lerner's 1967 documentary FESTIVAL, featuring performances from Newport, 1963-1966. The moment when Dylan went electric in 1965 is right there onscreen in black and white. Unfortunately, it seems the music rights have never been cleared for a video release.

The film's only 95 minutes long, so the performances come at you in snippets, but the cast includes Joan Baez, Theodore Bikel, Mike Bloomfield, Paul Butterfield, Johnny Cash, Judy Collins, Donovan, Bob Dylan, Cousin Emmy, Mimi Farina, Richard Farina, Ronnie Gilbert, Son House, Howlin' Wolf, Mississippi John Hurt, Jim Kweskin, Odetta, Peter, Paul and Mary, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Pete Seeger, Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 09:26 AM

And of that group, only Dylan was electric? I find this whole "Dylan went electric" thing to be quite amusing. The entire festival was electric, because amplification was used. But apparently, with folkie luddites, there will always be two kinds of electric.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 11:57 AM

See Arthur Wood's reviews in FolkWax of the new books on folk rock history - Arthur is a good writer and it's a great site.
I saw Dylan in Jan, 66 in Chicago - the first half of the concert was acoustic and the place was packed, at intermission, they rolled out the electric instruments and 80% of the audience left. I stayed, but it was not very good folk or rock. I don't know if there was media coveraqe of all this - it is hard to beleive that there were so many dedicated folk fans, unless it was just the faddish thing to do to leave - like the interest in folk music in the first place.
Chris

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 12:27 PM

"Judas"
"I don't think so"
The famous words heard on the live recording at the Free Trade Hall (built incidentally on the site of the Peterloo Massacre).
A few years ago they managed to track down the heckler and had him on TV. I think he was a teacher but I might be wrong.
Seemed like a nice bloke, and I think he was rather embarrassed about the whole thing.
Fortunately Dylan took the 30 pieces of silver and ran.
"It's all right Ma It's life and life only"

All the best PP

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Conharp
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

My wife and I were present when Dylan went "electric" in 1965.
He performed the first half of his set alone on stage in the expected manner (with a harmonica sling around his neck) and singing his usual material.

For the second part of his act he came out in a shiny black outfit, accompanied by his band. He played "Maggie's Farm", with the sound system turned way up. The distortion made all the words incomprehensible. People were yelling, "We want folk music!",and
our memory of this was just noise.

The next day as my wife and I were having breakfast in the Viking motel in Newport, we noticed Pete Seeger (who was sitting at the next table) explaining to HIS father (who had a hearing problem) what he thought of Dylan's performance. We caught a phrase like "I thought he had so much promise."

Our assumption was that Pete was terribly disappointed.

Dick Levine

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 02 - 02:41 PM

The stories of Pete Seeger's disappointment of Dylan "going electric" at Newport are now legendary of course. But I don't think Arlo was disappointed, thank goodness! :)

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Fay
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:33 AM

I find it all a bit strange personally, All this attention to when the music went electric.

Surely the act of putting accompaniment to a song/tune in the first place with any harmonising instrument is going to change the piece far more than meerly exchanging one accompanying instrument for another, accoustic for elecric, and still playing the same chords etc...

Surely the change in modality of music is far more significant than the change of (already present) instrumentation.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 10:03 AM

I wasn't at the Manchester concert but was at the ones in Glasgow and Edinburgh a few nights later. My memory of those gigs is that a majority shouted down those who were booing Dylan for playing electric.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 10:49 AM

1. I have attended large outdoor folk festivals and generally good sound is a problem. Even if the early Dylan blues had been good, it is difficult to believe that the sound system at Newport would have been up to it. A good sound system is essential to a folk concert, unless it can be put on without a sound system.
2. Since the Chicago blues scene was in full stride in the US when Dylan can through in '65, my main objection to the music was that it was very mediocre compared to what Howling Wolf, Muddy Watters and others were doing.   Even the early Stones recording of Chicago blues fell far short (I think) of the real thing.
3. I don't see any problem with adding electric instruments to folk, drums to bluegrass or whatever else seems non-traditional - the real question is not whether Dylan went electric, but whether in '65 and '66 he made good music - my view is that, overall, he did not.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Matthias
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:48 AM

The way I hear it on the official "Live 1966" release is more like this:

"Judas!" said Keith Butler (for more on him you can see www.expectingrain.com/dok/who/b/butlerkeith.html and www.expectingrain.com/dok/who/obituaries/butlerkeith.html)

"I don't believe you. . .you're a liar!" and then as a raucous, vicious, beautiful version of "Like a Rolling Stone" kicks into gear, Dylan snarls "play f$%#-ing LOUD!"

To me it's one of the seminal moments in Dylan's amazing career.

The "luddite folkies" reference is right on!

Rock 'n roll is folk music is story telling is painting is art. And, just as importantly, the music Dylan made after "going electric" is beyond good. Loads and loads of the "electric" music that followed is beyond good. The electric Chicago blues masters were incredible artists. Dylan is an incredible artist. It's not an either or thing.

Fans and critics always try to box artists of all genres in, but it's part of his mandate to "Kick my legs to crash it off/ Say okay, I have had enough/ What else can you show me?"

Matthias

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 04:25 PM

In resonse to GUEST Chris . . . Mike Blumfield, Dylan's man on electric guitar that day in Newport, was born in Chicago. How then could the music not be "genuine" Chicago blues? Check this link for more about Bloomfield = http://www.oafb.net/once198.html.

The music that Dylan performed that day may not have been his best, live performances are like ball games, sometimes you win - sometimes you don't.

I happen to think that the era that Dylan jumped out of the rut he had been in was a move that people may never agree on. I think that is without a doubt the best music ever made by anyone. He was having a good time, making good music and with some of the best musicians ever assembled - ever.

IT TAKES A LOT TO LAUGH. IT TAKES A TRAIN TO CRY.
(Bob Dylan)

Well, I ride on a mailtrain, baby,
Can't buy a thrill.
Well, I've been up all night, baby,
Leanin' on the window sill.
Well, if I die on top of the hill
And if I don't make it, you know my baby will.

Don't the moon look good, mama,
Shinin' through the trees?
Don't the brakeman look good, mama,
Flagging down the "Double E"?
Don't the sun look good goin' down over the sea?
Don't my gal look fine when she's comin' after me?

Now the wintertime is coming,
The windows are filled with frost.
I went to tell everybody,
But I could not get across.
Well, I wanna be your lover, baby, I don't wanna be your boss.
Don't say I never warned you when your train gets lost.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 12:57 PM

Being younger than some of the old fart folkie "luddites", I liked Dylan's electrified folk just as much as his earlier acoustic stuff. I even like his vocals (at least to about the mid-70s when he stopped trying to pronounce anything.

What I would take him to task for was his harmonica playing... Thanks to his (and Neil Young's) influence, I experience an inward shudder every time I see someone pull out a harp at a concert, gig or session.

Because, 9 times out of 10, I know what's coming: mouthfuls of 4 and five adjacent notes blown or sucked as loud as possible, changing slightly at least a beat and a half after the chord changes, all in substitute of a real solo. On a diatonic harp in the proper key, you're not supposed to be able to blow a bad note. Yeah, well.... The only person worse on the thing was Alanis "careful, you played a note in key there" Morisette.

Makes me wish that people who want to play harp along with you would just listen one time to someone who could play the fuckin' thing.

Subject: "there's no accounting for taste"
From: Matthias
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 01:59 PM

from

http://www.dylanchords.com/

click on "harmonica"

"Bob Dylan and the Harmonica

There are those - especially among "professional" harpers - who don't like the way Dylan plays the harp. A common line of argument is something like "I respect him as a songwriter and a performer, but my 4-year old son plays better harp than him." (this is a genuine quote. If you search this page thoroughly, you'll find a link to some more similar quotes. Read on your own risk!)

Then there are those who go mad about almost anything he plays - be it good or outright bad.

And then there are us middle men, archive crawlers, dust researchers, who admit that Little Walter has a slightly better technique on some minor points, but who still go out and buy a Marine Band and feel satisfied when able to produce some of Dylan's clumsy, unstable, unsofisticated fills, instead of the great, virtuosic work of Sonny Boy Williamson or Charlie McCoy (I always thought it's a pity he ended up playing bass, of all things,on those country records - like Blonde on Blonde- back when)."

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST,ta2
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 02:24 PM

saw dylan in glasgow 1965..............played first half solo and acoustic...........after the interval .........electric band........"purists" in the audience objected but both parts were brilliant

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 03:11 PM

Matthias,

Agree on the Charlie McCoy and Sonny Boy examples of great harp work. And also that there is a lot of middle ground there. Hell, that blow-for-all-you're-worth technique even works pretty well on a lot of the Dylan stuff.

I just wish people might look past it when they shell out the 30 to 40 bucks (they ain't cheap no more) for a harp and plan to imitate it every friggin' time.

Even Lennon (the story goes) took a few harpoon tips from Delbert McClinton before he played his solo on Love Me Do. Stood him in good stead. He used it pretty much unchanged for a few others afterwards.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: BEK
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 03:58 PM

Hi All,

It's been a while---a long while. Class has kept me away. Oddly enough, I have a story from class that pertains. (Gee, I love it when homework is useful)

At UT Austin, we have the Lomax Collection. Alan was at the Newport Festival and went CRAZY backstage. Took an axe and tried to chop the electrical lines. Even warnings of the voltage wouldn't stop him.

Supposedly, Lomax considers that the betrayal of folk.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:12 PM

BEK, with all due respect, I think anecdotes like this are best introduced with the qualifier "Legend has it..."

I have heard the exact same anecdote, only the ax luddite was played by Pete Seeger.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:13 PM

Considering they had Paul Butterfield on the stage earlier in the day, they could hardly have been surprised.


Having said that, if you listen to some of Dylan's earlier work on bootleg, etc., you can see that he had the magic to really transform folk music into political power, and that he walked away from it. If I were Pete Seeger, I would have been disappointed too -- he was the man, and Pete Seeger and all the rest knew it. He was a kind of dream -- a young Woody Guthrie. I am a bigger fan of the later stuff, but you only have to listen to Masters of War, the Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol, and other stuff to be knocked out by what he could have done if he had gone the political route.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:23 PM

Glasgow was '66, believe me. Check the files of the "Evening Citizen" and you'll see me on the front page, queuing from 10pm the previous evening for tickets going on sale at 8 am next morning (I'm the only male in the photo, age 19!). I agree with your memory of the show and the audience reaction. Most were there to hear whatever Dylan wanted to do and were bored with the booers. The "Judas" thing is more for the legend rather than those who actually experienced the shows. I saw Dylan in Newcastle in '65 (acoustic), still got the ticket stub from that one!

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Redbeard
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 05:07 PM

I saw Dylan in Springfield, Massachusetts sometime around 65 or 66, can't really remember. He did the same thing as in Glasgow, first set acoustic and second electric. As I was pretty much a folk purist myself back then I, like most of the audience, was in shock. Hated every minute of it although I quickly came to appreciate it and within 2 or 3 years was playing electric in a rock and roll band myself. We even played a couple of Dylans tunes and everybody loved it then. Times change very quickly.

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: widowmaker
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:54 AM

Well Hello Big Tim I'm going over the water at xmas so if you need anthing sourcing (Art McMillan etc) drop me a message. Have a good Crimble Byeeeeee

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Songster Bob
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:44 PM

$30-$40 for a harmonica? Where do you live? Even the over-priced Marine Bands are typically $15 in the most expensive shops in the US. I suppose in some European countries, with import duties and VAT and all, they'd be more, but $30? Wow! For that, I'd expect a Meisterklasse model (God, they're purty! I have two of 'em).

Seriously, I have heard the stories about Newport, including one girl I knew (yes, she was a girl at the time) who said she was in the crowd of young folks who resented the stir among the purists and wanted to hear more of the electric side. Don't remember if she mentioned the sound system problems or not.

I've recently gotten a lot more lenient about what I'll listen to and try to play, and have been memorizing large parts of various songs on "Highay 51 Revisited," among others. Back when Dylan went electric was about when I turned my back on the "folk scene" as such and went to playing old-timey music. I didn't care that Pete Seeger or any other "folkie" castigated Dylan, since they were themselves writing new material and presenting it to the same audiences. So Bobby plugged in? So what? Violets of Dawn my ass! In fact, Dylan was more honest in that he played what he wanted and didn't care so much for labels (other than the record companies -- I mean labels like "folk" or "rock" or "junk").

So, who wants to buy an electric guitar?

Bob

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 04:13 PM

Canada... more specifically, northern Ontario.

Yep, 30 to 40 bucks is about what you can expect to pay here for a decent harp (Marine Band, Blues Harp, Special 20, etc.)

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 04:47 PM

Of course Dylan first "went electric" in early,home-recorded "sessions" with John Bucklen et al in 1958 or was it '59. Plus "Mixed Up Confusion" in '62?

Subject: RE: When Dylan first went electric
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 06:44 PM

I don't suppose Pete Seeger would have liked it much if the purists had unplugged his microphones, eh?

Like I said, there are two kinds of electricity to folk luddites. Purist electricity, and electric electricity. It is so easy to see why one is so far superior to the other, isn't it?