help: singing in tune in a microphone

Subject: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: An Croenen
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:54 AM

Aaaargh!! I heard a recent recording of myself singing through a microphone and in some places I am way out of tune and -and this is the scary bit- unaware of what's going on while I'm singing. I rarely sing out of tune when I'm not amplified, and it has left me a bit traumatised! Tell me what I need to know to avoid this happening again, please... An

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM

You need a monitor, and maybe a better mix. Gotta hear what you're singing with, not guess what a) you sound like b) the others are doing.

That's all, really.

W-O

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 10:02 AM

forget about the microphone and just sing as normal. Singing or playing into a mic often makes you place undue stress upon yourself which inturn affects your performance. So just forget about it practice with a hair brush (ha ha) daft but it will help you to get used to something being in yor face whilst you sing.
Good luck
John

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:11 AM

Both comments are right on target. Your problem was likely that you counld't hear yourself properly. If you can, practice with a monitor and a mic and a cassette recorder can help you get used to the way you sound (and the way your hear!) amplified.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:57 AM

...and yes, don't let the mike's presence get you nervous, but use it, don't try to stay away from it. Get close to it. If you back away from the mike, you stand a good chance of not hearing yourself, and having exactly the problems you describe.

Most people feel unnatural with microphones at first, that's normal. Just remember to get close to it, but don't touch the mike, the stand or the cable. You have to get used to hearing the amplified version of yourself. With a good sound tech, you can actually sound better than you really do, not worse. That's my experience anyway.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: An Croenen
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM

Thank you very much, I'll try all of those things- until someone asks me to stop singing, I suppose :)

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 01:14 PM

Next higher up the tech ladder than the hairbrush is one of those cheap kiddies Karaoke kits. I saw one in a local shop for about $20 US. It has a cheap mic and you should be able to hear yourself somewhat amplified.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Merritt
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 01:27 PM

People are offering good suggestions. My 2 cents:

~ especially agree with the "getting used to it" recommendation; amplification is just inherently disorienting until you've interacted a bit with it; practice amplified; AND prepare to be disoriented and ready to adjust when you play your first outside gig, or a bar that's packed to the ceiling with people, etc.

~ some mics (e.g., dynamic cardiods - sp?) are designed to be "chewed on" while others may require a bit of space b/w you and mic

~ until I could afford a monitor, I stuck one of those foam rubber ear plugs in one ear and used my head - lots of empty space in there ;-) - as an internal speaker; you can buy a dozen ear plugs for a few bucks

~ if you're going to be working amplified a lot of the time, learn everything you can about the ins and outs of sound systems and equipment, room dynamics, etc.; I can now handle the >basics< of my cheap sound set-up, but it's taken me a year and a half of learning curve and audience abuse to be there; work with, but don't leave it to the geeks (no offense) - rather I hope you bring your musician's ear and sensibilities to the tech operations side of performing; IMO there's art and intuition to sound

~ if you play an instrument, on songs where it's challenging to pick up the first note of my part, I make sure that am picking that note within a guitar chord as (or just before) my vocal comes in; I'm usully oke if I start out on pitch for a harmony & can usually drop this once I get it down

- Merritt


"It's all one big note." - F. Zappa

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 01:59 PM

Several good ideas have already been provided here.

It's a little known fact that microphones are notorius for altering the pitch when we sing or play an instrument such as the fiddle. I still shudder when I listen to an old tape recording I have on which I seem to be playing out of tune. I'm sure that better microphones would have solved the problem. <g> I'm pretty sure microphones have even thrown my guitar out of tune on occasion though I can't prove it. <vbg>

Another idea that might be helpful is to use your computer to help you practice. Your computer may have a built-in microphone; if not, it will have a microphone input socket. You can use your computer's built-in software to record yourself playing and singing and critique your performance. If you can get around the feedback, you can also leave your computer's speakers enabled and use the whole setup like a monitor at a performance.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 02:09 PM

One key to the whole thing is to hear yourself. You might try cupping one hand near your ear. That will bring enough sound back to you to let you correct your performance. It's no-tech but it works.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Mudlark
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 03:11 PM

When I saw the title of this thread I thought maybe I had posted in my sleep...I am going to be singing, outside at night (chilly) into a mic for the first time ever to a crowd of about 100 people this Friday. I know the song cold, but am scared to death that using amplification is going to throw me well off. In recording myself on a tape deck, then trying to play with tape I find that my guitar is about a half-tone sharp...a big surprise to me the first time I heard that.

I keep telling myself that, after all, this is not about me, but about the ceremony, etc. etc....but oh, will I be glad when it's over. I have a feeling it's going to be a very humbling experience!

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 04:22 PM

I was only funnin' ya about microphones changing the pitch. In fact, they don't do that. My fiddle tape is bad only because that's the way it was played. My playing wasn't that far out and the tape also records a very big hand from the audience but it's far enough out to offend my ear. If the tape sounds okay by itself but seems sharp or flat of where you know your instrument was tuned, it means the tape speed was not correct, either during recording or playback (or both). Inexpensive decks can also vary the tape speed in the space of a single tune.

The advantage of using your computer is that there is no tape to enter into the equation. What you hear is what it heard.

Try EBarnacle's idea of cupping your hand over one ear. You can also close one ear completely to hear your own pitch better. Another approach is to practice in the bathroom. The hard surfaces will allow you to better hear the quality and pitch of your own performance. Sing loud and with feeling, just as you would in a performance. Do this for a while, say 20 minutes or so, until you're all warmed up and ready to wail. Then have at it.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 10:54 PM

Monitor speakers are essential for hearing yourself in a crowded pub, or anywhere there's background noise.

Rather than a floor monitor, I recommend Galaxy's Hot Spot which is tiny, cheap (around $ 100) and sits on a mic stand at or above waist level. Much closer to your ear, lightweight, and it's got a volume control. I've been using them for years.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Mudlark
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 02:07 AM

Am printing off this thread...thanks to all you experienced mic players for input. I'm metaphorically taping it to my forehead...

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 10:53 AM

Interesting....... - a friend of mine swears blind that whenever he sings into a mic he hears himself as very flat, and consequently he panics & backs away from the mic & basically shoots his performance in the foot (well, you know what I mean). In fact he isn't particularly flat - and is fairly happy with it if we've minidisked it & he listens later.
Weird stuff this amplification lark.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: An Croenen
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:53 PM

So suppose I show up with this galaxy Hot Spot thingy - will the technician know how to plug it in and stuff? It would be very interesting if I could take it anywhere and be able to count on formback.
I sang in a microphone on Tuesday night at a different venue and asked a critical and notoriously honest friend whether I had been out of tune and he said I hadn't. Judging by the silence of the crowd and the reactions after (I had two marriage proposals and someone said I had the voice of an angel, but then angels might sing out of tune all the time) he spoke the truth. The formback must have been very good in this place and I felt in control of the sound. It was a good night - which was just as well or I might have thrown in the mic all together! Of course from what you are saying, I should go to the difficult place more instead of less, untill I've tamed the system. Plus torture the hairbrush, the computer, and the kid's caraoke system. And the neighbours, who will take revenge shortly because expecting baby. Thank you so much to you all for your support - it is greatly appreciated! And good luck to Mudlark.
An

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Mudlark
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 05:06 PM

Thanks An, and the same to you...sounds like you got over the first hurdle splendidly!

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 05:52 PM

An, you can carry a monitor around, but there's not guarentee that there will be an available monitor send just for you. If there is more than one monitor send on stage, then you may be able to swap them out and have one just for you and your hot spot. Or you may be able to swap out an existing monitor or daisy chain from the existing monitors, but that's going to be the generic monitor mix, and you may have to carry several sorts of cables or cable adapters around with you just to be on the safe side.

If it's an open mic kind of situation, you may have to bribe the tech with lots of compliments and another of whatever they are drinking to get them to consider running around and doing a special setup for you -- if, indeed, it's not against the rules of the open mic. (And it should be... imagine the disaster if everyone wanted something different!)

In general though, if it's YOUR show, there shouldn't be any problem at all with bringing your own monitor or mic or whatever piece of equipment you want, and the tech really, really should know how to set it up. If in doubt, ask to speak to the tech ahead of the show. This may not be feasible, as many techs work on an independant setup and won't be there until the night of the show, but at the least you should be able to cover this in the setup and sound check before the show. Don't drop it on the guy/gal 5 minutes before the show is set to start.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: GUEST,Ray, {55 years of recording experience}.
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 06:08 PM

I do hope that you will not be offended by this as my comments are only being truthful and honest about something that is a very common problem with many people. Forget the microphone, don't blame it for something that is quite a normal aberation in the human hearing system. The simple fact is that people who are tone deaf are the very last ones to ever recognise the fact until they hear themselves played back on a recording. What you hear is what other people have probably been aware of for quite some time, but have not had the nerve to tell you about. A microphone, is a very sensitive and truthful instrument, and it cant lie, it can only faithfully record what it hear's, that is unless some electronic changes are purposely made in the sound through the recording equipment at some stage, during or after, the recording is made. No, what I suggest that you should do is to try some professional voice training lessons with an experienced teacher, and then hopefully, maybe you will be able to overcome your obvious problem of tone deafness. I do sicerely hope that this will help you with your future ambition of being a singer, and eventually perhaps show you the real way to success. Yours truly, Ray.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 06:28 PM

If someone's tone deaf, how can they possibly hear mistakes on playback?

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 06:31 PM

Oops - sent too soon.
I agree that voice lesson will help people control the tone. I can't see how they'd help people hear any better though. I've always been able to hear myself sing off pitch when I'm doing it, but it's taken a heck of a lot of practice to control what comes out of my mouth.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 06:58 PM

It's true that amateurs (and some pros) will frequently blame a poor performance on the technology or the sound tech. It's also occasionally true -- a singer who can't hear well onstage needs to either have the experience, the training or the inate talent to sing perfectly on key. The amateurs rarely know how to define what's wrong, and resort to saying the monitors aren't loudn enouhg, which may not be the problem at all.

But that doesn't seem to be the issue here, I think. Amplification is a totally different feeling, whether it be singing or even playing an instrument plugged in for the first few times. It takes some getting used to -- and why do I never see voice classes for microphone or studio technique?

Of course, sometimes techs have been known to use the placebo effect and swap out perfectly functioning equipment (or pretend to) to give a performer having an off night a mental boost :) Even an old pro who KNOWS his less than stellar performance is his own fault will fall for this trick!

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 07:56 PM

I'll rely on experts to tell me whether this notion makes any sense or not.

I think most “tone deaf” people can learn to hear pitches with practice. I have the notion that one must learn to hear. Of course that assumes there is nothing organically wrong in the first place. Some people simply learn to hear—in a musical sense—earlier or more quickly than others. Also, I suspect it's easier to learn when we're younger than later in life.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: dwditty
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 08:04 PM

It may have been suggested already, but this same thing happened to me. I suspect I was not always as on pitch as I thought. Try singing into a mic while wearing ear phones. You should be able to do this on your pc.       Even try recording some bits and playing it back.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 08:08 PM

I guess I'd mostly agree, Mark -- although I've never met a person who genuinely could not hear tonal differences, I wouldn't think is doesn't exist. Maybe the term "tone deaf" is just overused. Short of some sort of physical brain or ear damage, I would be pretty sure that tone perception is a matter of brain-ear coordination, and not a physical defect in the vast majority of "tone deaf" individuals.

But there are folks who are genuinely color blind, for example, which is a different condition from someone who isn't good at matching colors. The first is a defect of vision, the second is a lack of perceptive training.

The range of abilities between tone deaf and perfect pitch are probably mostly due to training, and not some personal ability -- but then again, some people are just more or less talented in different areas, and all portions of the spectrum may not be obtainable for everyone.

Wouldn't a person who is genuinely tone deaf have difficulty understanding and speaking language?

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Dave Swan
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 09:09 PM

There's much good information here.

Here's another thought based on lots of time behind a mic. Monitor speakers are a good thing, but you must be aware of what you're hearing in them. You haven't mentioned whether you're a cappella, or using an instrument, solo or part of a group. If you're on stage with any one/thing else, be sure that sound is well represented in the monitor. That can help your tuning. It makes sense, because we make the best music when we listen to each other.

Best,
Dave

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 10:52 PM

An - yeah, the last time someone told me I had the voice of an angel I then heard him whisper in an aside to a friend, "The angel of death!" :)

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:29 AM

An, please don't let Guest Ray spook you (or Guest Les B, for that matter).

From what you've told us, you are not "obviously" tone-deaf (and I would say that's a very rare condition, and has not been defined scientifically).

I agree that it may be useful to see a professional voice trainer and ask their opinion of your ability. Not being a friend, s/he would be able to give an unbiased assessment.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 02:09 AM

Here's two more cents --

I have had some experiences like yours An... and I symathize... It is so shocking. I have found that the biggest culprit pitch robber is reverberation. You know, that reflected sound... I use a little of that reverb in my voice and guitar, cause I realy like te way it sounds. However, when I first started using it, I found that I tended to vere flat, especially if I was tired, or not used to the material. Many sound techs will use reverb in order to make the performance 'richer' sounding, and most rooms have it naturally. If you can practice with a digital one, or record yourself in the shower, or a big empty room, do it! Then listen carefully.

The next thing is that it's important to record yourself from time to time, to hear how you are coming across. I for one, get so into my singing sometimes, that I forget to hear my pitch right then... and if it wasn't recorded, I won't ever get to hear it...

Lastly, we often can not hear ourselves with the same critical ear we are performing with... at the same time. Once again, recording can help. If you can find a cheap little tape recorder (or a fine minny disc recorder for all that!), just turn it on when you are going to sing anyway, and set it somewhere convenient. Though the recording will likely be of inferior quality, it will provide you with a perfectly usable reflecting pool... There's a little bit of Narscissus in all of us performers...?^) ttr

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: open mike
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 03:23 AM

so did you accept either of the marriage proposals??

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: GUEST,Guest Mikew
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 06:29 AM

Speaking as an amateur but who has the opportunity to use various 'house PA systems' in pubs and clubs etc. I've found it is essential to be able to hear what you're singing - if you can't it is the most disconcerting thing ever.
If I can't hear myself then I politely but firmly turn down the offer of the mic. put on some heavy gauge picks and sing up!

Also the microphone "likes" some voices more than others but generally speaking most voices sound better with a little help.

If they're quiet when you're playing and applaud loudly at the end then you must be doing it right.

Mike w

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 09:48 AM

Very interesting thread. Never heard of this problem before. Jeri, I know you have worked hard to "control what comes out of your mouth" but, you have a long way to go! LOL
Seriously, your singing has made tremendous progress in the last couple of years.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: curmudgeon
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 10:09 AM

I'm with EBarnacle here; cupping a hand behind the ear has always worked well for me, both for recording and singing in a noisy pub. This technique was used for many years by radio announcers before the advent of quality monitors -- Tom

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 11:43 AM

Kendall, I haven't tried to control everything!
Seriously, my ear is NOT the problem, and I don't think hearing is for those who've posted.
I hear every last imperfection, including many that others miss. I listen to trained singers who are supposed to be all that and a bag of chip, and I can hear occasional flat notes. I have to use an electronic thingie to tune with because I can get an instrument in tune and the variation in tone caused by plucking or bowing harder or softer makes me think it's out and I keep messing with it. The e-tuner tells me it's as close as I can get and to stop it already.

I'm sure some of those folks posting here are in the same boat. Other listeners wouldn't hear the out-of-tuneness, and people's ears tend to skip over infrequent mistakes when you sing live. If you care, you're going to be your own worst critic.

Some really are singing off pitch. Now why would someone not notice while they were doing it but hear it clearly on playback? I believe it's with the amplification and believe monitors, including the ear-cupping version, will help.

I'm of the opinion that the louder something is, the higher in pitch it gets. I've noticed this in sessions when I've briefly plugged my ears. The pitch gets flatter. I don't know if I'm nuts or this is some sort of weird version of the Doppler effect. If I'm not nuts, then if you match your voice to the pitch coming out of the loutd end of the sound system, you'll be sharp on a recording. Any sound engineers? Am I completely off the wall?

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 12:18 PM

I noticed at discos years ago (late sixties, when I was in my mid teens) that amplified bass notes sound sharp. I always assumed it was a fault of cheap gear when overdriven, but when I tried tuning a bass guitar a few years ago without using an amp, I couldn't do it: I hard a really hard job distinguishing one note from another, let alone a fraction of a semitone. Now I'm actually getting a bit deaf, I don't suppose it will get easier. I also noticed recently that very high pitches disappear for a while as they rise (this was listening to a signal generator in a physics demo), then come back, but soon become indistisguishable in pitch.

Maybe I've got the wrong hobby!

Steve

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 12:40 PM

Well, apparently I'm completely off the wall. I found some information and the pitch doesn't change when the volume changes. The Doppler effect wouldn't come into play unless someone rapidly pushed me out the door while the other musicians were playing. I know what you're thinking - that hasn't happened yet. The phenomenon still occurs and it has to be because of the way I percieve the sound, but I wonder why.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 12:45 PM

Then again, maybe singing flat is one of the ways we hold ourselves back... like nervousness and shyness are ways we hide our full capacity. If we subconciously feel that we couldn't/shouldn't be "good enough" it is natural to sing flat as we hold our selves back... or, down in this case... and there is that feeling of being exposed or more or less naked... Really though, the only way is to step through all this nonsence and go for it! Do something you love, and give it all you've got. ...and to heck with the crabby critics. ;^)

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: NicoleC
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 12:52 PM

Jeri, volume and pitch aren't exactly related, but volume does affect what you hear. And some people have difficultly distinguishing pitch and volume, or being able to tell the difference in pitch between two notes if the volume is different. In the wave form, pitch = frequency and volume = amplitude.

At louder levels, you (i.e. most people) can hear higher and lower frequencies better. At softer levels, you usually only hear the middle of your frequency range. "Your" frequency range is the range of frequencies you can hear, which depends on your ears and your age. Young kids can often hear as low as 15Hz and up to 20,000, most adults hear between 40-15,000 and may have individual strengths and weaknesses or damage at various frequencies.

Ear plugs, fingers in the ears and other kinds of hearing protection usually filter out more high frequencies than the rest of the spectrum, partially because higher frequencies cause damage more easily, and partially because the plug blocks smaller wave forms from entering the ear. So in addition to cutting amplitude (volume), they can affect frequency range.

Every voice and instrument not only has a frequency range, but a signature within that range. An individual's frequency signature could, in theory, be affected by the volume. And when a singer sings a note, they don't just hit the exact frequency that relates to that note -- it's a mish-mash of frequencies based on their individual signature. I'm not sure if that could come through as a difference in pitch though -- if it does, it would be VERY slight.

The Doppler Effect, is the perceived frequency (f ´) is related to the actual frequency (f0) and the relative speeds of the source (vs), observer (vo), and the speed (v) of waves in the medium by
f´ = fo(v+vo/v+vs)
(The pluses should be plus or minus signs.) In other words, it's a shift in frequency and wavelength caused by direction and movement. A similar phenomena, but not volume related.

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: NicoleC
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:00 PM

Cross-posting there... hope your internet meanderings were more in depth than my summary, Jeri!

Subject: RE: help: singing in tune in a microphone
From: Sandy McLean
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:17 PM

If you are singing into a mike while playing a guitar make sure that you can hear your insturment as well as your voice. If you are playing un-rehearsed with a house band of some sort they can lead you badly astray. They may be playing correctly in the way that a song was recorded but maybe not right for you. If you can hear your own guitar it should hold you on key.
If you do not have a built in pick-up make sure that you have a mike for your guitar.
Also bad accustics where you hear the note that you just sang bouncing back as your voice moves to the next note can trash anybody's performance. A good monitor is your best friend.
               Sandy